Natalee Case Discussion #802 2/21/09 - 2/25/09

[2NJSons_Mom]

Thank you, Red.  You should never have had to ask.



 


On we go...

So true, Lifesong. 

[Keepthefaith]

Hey Monkeys,

Spoke with Beth today. Nothing of any pressing news, we just had not chatted in a while and it was great to do some catch up with her.

However, I took the opportunity to ask Beth a couple of questions that she was kind enough to answer.

Question: Beth, this may come as a strange question but in light of some people writing misrepresentations regarding stuff that SM has done ... has Scared Monkeys on the FP or in the forum ever made comments, posts or done anything that would have upset you that you were angered or disagreed with?

Answer: Red, are you kidding. Scared Monkeys has done so much good from the beginning how could you even ask that. Are you crazy!

My own comment ... its also not like the family has specifically asked for help regarding certain things since 2005. Whether it be advice, news updates, research or translations.     

The fact of the matter is folks that there has been so much done for Natalee's family behind the scenes that goes unsaid, that they all know and have a direct line if they want to ask a question. They do not rely on third party discussion. Generally speaking over the years, family members have contacted us, not the other way around. I do not believe in burdening people who have lost so much.

The truth of the matter is that SM, Red personally, has a a relationship with members of Natalee's family and nothing anyone tries to do, say or lie about will change that fact. We have fought in the trenches together and have bonds outside of the internet and this case. There is nothing that internet trouble makers can do to break up friendships that exist in the real world.

Thanx Red!Let's keep rolling Monkey's.We are not going anywhere Natalee Holloway!

[Artcolley]

Hey Monkeys,

Spoke with Beth today. Nothing of any pressing news, we just had not chatted in a while and it was great to do some catch up with her.

However, I took the opportunity to ask Beth a couple of questions that she was kind enough to answer.

Question: Beth, this may come as a strange question but in light of some people writing misrepresentations regarding stuff that SM has done ... has Scared Monkeys on the FP or in the forum ever made comments, posts or done anything that would have upset you that you were angered or disagreed with?

Answer: Red, are you kidding. Scared Monkeys has done so much good from the beginning how could you even ask that. Are you crazy!

My own comment ... its also not like the family has specifically asked for help regarding certain things since 2005. Whether it be advice, news updates, research or translations.     

The fact of the matter is folks that there has been so much done for Natalee's family behind the scenes that goes unsaid, that they all know and have a direct line if they want to ask a question. They do not rely on third party discussion. Generally speaking over the years, family members have contacted us, not the other way around. I do not believe in burdening people who have lost so much.

The truth of the matter is that SM, Red personally, has a a relationship with members of Natalee's family and nothing anyone tries to do, say or lie about will change that fact. We have fought in the trenches together and have bonds outside of the internet and this case. There is nothing that internet trouble makers can do to break up friendships that exist in the real world.

Thank You, Red

[Artcolley]

I've asked Red to see if he can find out from Tim Miller if they are really going back to Aruba for another ocean search. 

I've also asked Red to find out from Tim Miller if he was on or off the Persistence on January 7, 2008.

Wonderful, Klaas, Thank You!

[Keepthefaith]

Thank You Red! Your post tonight means the world to Me and I'm sure too many others! 

Amen.God Bless you Red!

[Keepthefaith]

Truthseeker2, I hope you got Red's post Copied to Paste at CnG.

And Goldmonkey 

LOL. I actually am too slow for copy and paste.

Please do ask Klaas for a link to the slide show unless you've already seen it!

[Mere]

For those of us who would like to help, is there anything we might do? 
 

[Anna]

I feel so badly for Tim Miller because he has chest pains and bleeding ulcer and every day is with some poor family somewhere searching and dealing with God only knows what.

Florida alone has kept him busy of late.  I don't think it is humanly possible to do all this man tries to do. 

The sudden appearance of that Marcos person was very interesting especially the timing.

JMO

[Keepthefaith]

                                         THE POWER OF ONE GIRL
                                                   
                                            NATALEE HOLLOWAY

                                                    A VOICE.
                                           THAT IS STILL HEARD..


                                                      ARUBA
                                           WE'LL NEVER GO AWAY!




                                             

[San]

For those of us who would like to help, is there anything we might do? 
 

What you have been doing since day one Mere.

[klaasend]

Posted by Lorain at RU:

LoRain Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:16 pm   

Many pardons....but I'm not sure anyone got the question...WHY do SM's still say that Natalee was in the cage when Dave is on his way to FIND HER????

But really I just want the question asked at SM....usually folks are lined up to copy and paste elsewhere but for some strange reason....NOT this time....why is that??....

You just don't get it do you?  It's not so much we believe Natalee was in the trap, as that KYLE believed she was in the trap.  Kyle's own words point to a diversion AGAIN by the Aruban authorities and yet ANOTHER injustice to Natalee and her family.  Did KYLE tell the truth or did KYLE lie? 

[Mere]

For those of us who would like to help, is there anything we might do? 
 

What you have been doing since day one Mere.

San....I have read and read and then sometimes I google an answer....lol....but the group is on research regarding the boat...I have been reading Janet's and Lifesong's work lately.  I wish I were still on the Gulf Coast.  I would track down that POBox....!   

[Anna]

Posted by Lorain at RU:

LoRain Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:16 pm   

Many pardons....but I'm not sure anyone got the question...WHY do SM's still say that Natalee was in the cage when Dave is on his way to FIND HER????

But really I just want the question asked at SM....usually folks are lined up to copy and paste elsewhere but for some strange reason....NOT this time....why is that??....

You just don't get it do you?  It's not so much we believe Natalee was in the trap, as that KYLE believed she was in the trap.  Kyle's own words point to a diversion AGAIN by the Aruban authorities and yet ANOTHER injustice to Natalee and her family.  Did KYLE tell the truth or did KYLE lie? 

Where has SM said that Natalee was in the trap?

That was Kyle who said human remains, etc.  I don't know if she was or not and the reason I don't know is that whatever was in the trap was given exclusively to ALE.

Given their history, how can anybody claim to know what they did with the trap contents?  Kyle said it was human remains and fitted a photo of Natalee over the contents of the trap.

Also, some keep forgetting that the door of the trap was forced inward and that must be taken into account in these measurements which makes them somewhat differrent.  Some always measure against a quarter of the trap when in fact it is the entire door that I believe the baggies are on top of. 

Is that a correct assumption in regards to the door or am I confused as usual?

.

[San]

For those of us who would like to help, is there anything we might do? 
 

What you have been doing since day one Mere.

San....I have read and read and then sometimes I google an answer....lol....but the group is on research regarding the boat...I have been reading Janet's and Lifesong's work lately.  I wish I were still on the Gulf Coast.  I would track down that POBox....!   

Hummmm maybe a visit 

[Tamikosmom]

I've asked Red to see if he can find out from Tim Miller if they are really going back to Aruba for another ocean search. 

I've also asked Red to find out from Tim Miller if he was on or off the Persistence on January 7, 2008.

According to Kyle Kingman ... Tim was not on board the Persistence after January 1, 2008.

Janet

+++++++


KYLE KINGMAN - IN HIS OWN WORDS

Kyle: I know Tim believed me and was convinced 100% which is why he went and told Dave that we found Natalee on Dec 29th. John stood back and waited and worked with the Aruban Polis to arrange the next dive -Dec 30th's which was the visual-only dive.  John told me then he didn't want to hear me ever mention the trap again. Of course this didn't set well with me

Kyle:   John didn't want Tim Miller on board the Persistence because he said Tim wasn't necessary any more and was a liability.

Kyle:   He (Tim Miller) stepped off on or about the 1st of Jan to follow up on the false lead in Costa Rica IIRC.

Kyle:   The Persistence had no divers on the 7th. Tim Trahan was our diver on the 30th-Dec, but he was out of the country at the time. The Aruban divers were on the police boat, dove from their boat, and returned to their boat.


The Search for Natalee Holloway
TRANSCRIPT
By Chris Hansen
Correspondent
NBC News
updated 5:20 p.m. PT, Fri., Feb. 22, 2008

To be sure there was no relevant evidence, material from the trap was given to the FBI. For the Holloways, though, another wild ride began.

This bizarre story originated in the central American nation of Nicaragua.

It happened last month, when Natalee’s father Dave received a message from a man who called himself Marcos. He said he had important information about where they could find Natalee's body.

Dave Holloway: He said, "I’d done some wrongs in my past," and he said, "This is my way of making all of my wrongs and all of my sins and doing something right."

Dave was skeptical, but the phone and e-mail messages continued.

In them was a wild tale involving drug runners who said that on the night Natalee disappeared someone had paid them to take her body and dump it at sea.

They agreed but instead they took her remains with them to Nicaragua and hid them on a remote strip of the Atlantic coast.

Dave Holloway: It was a little bit far-fetched for me.

Chris Hansen: What did he want in return?

Dave Holloway: He told us he didn't want anything. And that is what part I started believing in this guy. I said we've got a reward out here.

In January, Dave Holloway asked Tim Miller to head to Nicaragua to arrange for a meeting...and to Miller's surprise, Marcos showed up

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/5/

[memphis]

Truthseeker2, I hope you got Red's post Copied to Paste at CnG.

And Goldmonkey 

LOL. I actually am too slow for copy and paste.

You take care! I guess I won't get to chat with you any more.

[klaasend]

Janet - that's why I want Tim Miller to answer if he was on board or not.  I want verification from Tim.

[Tamikosmom]

Posted by Lorain at RU:

LoRain Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:16 pm   

Many pardons....but I'm not sure anyone got the question...WHY do SM's still say that Natalee was in the cage when Dave is on his way to FIND HER????

But really I just want the question asked at SM....usually folks are lined up to copy and paste elsewhere but for some strange reason....NOT this time....why is that??....

You just don't get it do you?  It's not so much we believe Natalee was in the trap, as that KYLE believed she was in the trap.  Kyle's own words point to a diversion AGAIN by the Aruban authorities and yet ANOTHER injustice to Natalee and her family.  Did KYLE tell the truth or did KYLE lie? 

THE PERSISTENCE DECEPTION

KYLE KINGMAN - IN HIS OWN WORDS

John Silvetti

Kyle:  John is not a believer in the trap. He took ALE's word as gospel that it wasn't case related, yet never studied the videos or bothered to inquire further. He had plans on doing business with Aruba and in S. America and he didn't want to hurt any feelings by talks hinting at lack of complete trust and friendship.

Kyle:  I took the proportions of the body form from the head, to shoulder, to a 90 degree angle which I believed to be the hem line of Natalee's skirt. I then took those proportions and matched them to the photo of Natalee with what she was last seen wearing. The proportions matched within an inch from head, to shoulder, to skirt line. Based on this comparison and with what we believed we saw in the Dec 29th video, Tim Miller contacted the family and told them the 99.9% comment. I told Tim not to do anything until we have forensic results back after the site is processed. Jan 7th we sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured. If it isn't her, it will forever haunt me as a major cosmic WTF.
 
Kyle: I know Tim believed me and was convinced 100% which is why he went and told Dave that we found Natalee on Dec 29th. John stood back and waited and worked with the Aruban Polis to arrange the next dive -Dec 30th's which was the visual-only dive.  John told me then he didn't want to hear me ever mention the trap again. Of course this didn't set well with me

Kyle:   John didn't want Tim Miller on board the Persistence because he said Tim wasn't necessary any more and was a liability.

Kyle:   He (Tim Miller) stepped off on or about the 1st of Jan to follow up on the false lead in Costa Rica IIRC.

Kyle:   The Persistence had no divers on the 7th. Tim Trahan was our diver on the 30th-Dec, but he was out of the country at the time. The Aruban divers were on the police boat, dove from their boat, and returned to their boat.
 
Kyle:  They were immediately whisked away by the Aruban police and not seen of again by us on the 7th.

Kyle:  I get done in the survey room backing up the ROV dive and head to the back deck to talk to the Polis divers and see what they sampled and see the Polis boat way in the distance heading away fast. John doesn't seem concerned at all, but I am very dissapointed, concerned, and burning inside because I have a feeling that I/we will never know what they took from the trap. That evening I talked to John asking when we plan on recovering the trap. Previously this was part of the talks and plan, but this time he doesn't seem concerned about ever looking into the trap further. After John verbally BASHED me about the trap for what I said to Tim Miller about the sand body-form and that I believed her skirt was under the sand, John pretty much committed himself to the belief the trap wasn't what we were after. This shocked me because it was exactly what we were looking for- a fish trap lost at sea with human remains.

Kyle: Remember after the Jan-7th dive which sampled the trap Richardson told John emphatically to "keep searching she's still out there in the deep ocean".

Kyle: John Silvetti told me today that he may be returning to Aruba very soon for a few days. (05/08/08)

Kyle: He's [John Silvetti] seriously making plans to open an Aruba office so he can conduct business easier in S. America and that would allow him to do that. (06/10/08)


KYLE KINGMAN - IN HIS OWN WORDS

Fabric - Tarp - Vertibre - Skull

Kyle:  I took the proportions of the body form from the head, to shoulder, to a 90 degree angle which I believed to be the hem line of Natalee's skirt. I then took those proportions and matched them to the photo of Natalee with what she was last seen wearing. The proportions matched within an inch from head, to shoulder, to skirt line. Based on this comparison and with what we believed we saw in the Dec 29th video, Tim Miller contacted the family and told them the 99.9% comment. I told Tim not to do anything until we have forensic results back after the site is processed. Jan 7th we sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured. If it isn't her, it will forever haunt me as a major cosmic WTF.

Kyle: We all know it wasn't a blouse, but I believe they were sent some piece of fabric other than the fabric found inside the trap.

Kyle: The portion of the discolored blue fabric was presumably on the bottom of the fabric. In my opinion this discoloration is not another type of fabric, but rather biological staining or discoloration from biological growth caused from a high organic carbon content and decay. Basically, during decay a biological mat will form around the organics from remains. This is what I believe it is on the bottom of the fabric.

Kyle: It was confirmed by the FBI that they received a fabric sample send by Richardson and that it wasn't a match to Natalee's blouse. I think the video can prove or disprove whatever the FBI was sent was the same object or not. I strongly believe it's blue denim.

Kyle: Notice the end of the skirt is an identical match to the 90 degree angle in the sand. I believe her left arm was outstretched with her legs slightly bent. I did not edit the legs. I believe the tarp was placed over her and tucked around her, or perhaps tied down. I believe there are several rocks laying on the sand which were placed on the tarp, or inside the tarp over her body which explains their unusual location. Either way, the proportions appear promising.

Kyle: In my opinion that last pic from Jan 7th should be absolutely intriguing and flip your mind from what you thought you knew. In case it isn't clear.. notice the blue denim-like fabric.

Kyle: Notice the blue fabric swayed in the current.

Kyle: The blue tarp piece was found approx 6-10 ft away from the trap opening.

Kyle:  The blue tarp and blue fabric was confirmed by Richardson and Mos. Remember, they each only confirmed one piece. One confirmed blue fabric, the other confirmed tarp. From the video you see both.

Kyle: The most likely to remain at or near it's original location was the skull, which is why I was so convinced the object pictured was a skull.

Kyle:   … John verbally BASHED me about the trap for what I said to Tim Miller about the sand body-form and that I believed her skirt was under the sand

Kyle:  I'm sorry if this is disturbing. I took the picture of Natalee standing on the beach and cropped, rotated, and scaled the image to correlate with the trap body form.  Notice the end of the skirt is an identical match to the 90 degree angle in the sand.

Kyle: The bag that is above the denim bag looks to me as though it contains pieces of  vertebrae.

Kyle: The fabric(s?) are not visible on either the Dec 29th or 30th dives. There is about an inch of sand over the fabrics. The fabrics are completely covered. The diver sampled the sand and found the fabric underneath the sand. He then bagged the blue fabric. If the other bag contains fabric, it was also in the sand. There was also something possibly recovered from far inside the trap. In the video the diver is inside the trap with just below his knees showing. I don't know what was sampled far inside the trap if anything.

Kyle:  The contents of the trap were being actively investigated. The forensic results of a fabric sample showed the fabric sample was not a match to Natalee's blouse and that no DNA match to Natalee was found within that fabric sample. Human remains were found, but the FBI was not and would not comment on the case. The FBI did not comment on the remains, but rather the fabric sample.

Kyle:  In my opinion, the blue fabric is quite possibly Natalee's skirt. The divers found the denim where I suggested a week earlier (Dec 29th) to Tim Miller that there was likely Natalee's denim skirt under the sand.  Also in my opinion, the deni-like fabric is a match in terms of color, quantity, and structure to Natalee's skirt. It's not a lot of denim folded in the bag, but then again her skirt was rather small.

Kyle: I think it is highly unlikely and completely inconsistent with numerous testimonies and other evidence that the pond (or anything but the ocean) contains Natalee's remains.

Kyle:  … Human remains were found, but the FBI was not and would not comment on the case. The FBI did not comment on the remains, but rather the fabric sample.

Kyle: Notice the end of the skirt is an identical match to the 90 degree angle in the sand. I believe her left arm was outstretched with her legs slightly bent. I did not edit the legs. I believe the tarp was placed over her and tucked around her, or perhaps tied down. I believe there are several rocks laying on the sand which were placed on the tarp, or inside the tarp over her body which explains their unusual location. Either way, the proportions appear promising.
 
Kyle: The blue tarp and blue fabric was confirmed by Richardson and Mos. Remember, they each only confirmed one piece. One confirmed blue fabric, the other confirmed tarp. From the video you see both.

Kyle: In my opinion that last pic from Jan 7th should be absolutely intriguing and flip your mind from what you thought you knew.  In case it isn't clear.. notice the blue denim-like fabric.

++++++

Kyle Kingman’s Summary

Kyle Kingman’s Specialties:
 
Project Management, Sonar Acquisition, hydrographic survey, data processing, remote sensing data analysis.

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/b/65/464

[Keepthefaith]

Heath Ledger wins Best-supporting actor for the Joker,as well as Red posts a wonderful encouraging statement from Beth Holloway..What impeccable timing........

[Anna]

Janet - that's why I want Tim Miller to answer if he was on board or not.  I want verification from Tim.

Klaas, I have always thought this was when Tim was off chasing down Marcos.  I wonder who put Marcos up to all that.

.