Anna Nicole Smith Marshall

[msmarple]

I would imagine Larry Birkhead did the math and came up with a likely possibility - one in which he has some confidence.

As Steve suggested above, usually the men don't want to get to the point of a DNA test because they're fighting child support etc. Without the test, they can always DENY paternity.

I've thought a lot during the last decade or so about requiring DNA tests to determine the paternity of all out-of-wedlock children. There is no reason, with this technology, for an unwed mother to have to cope with the responsibility alone. So what if the father turns out to be married, or it's a statutory rape (with or without consent), or incest, or whatever ... I think it would go a long way toward lowering the statistics.

[mishy]

Beaners, apparently HStern and Anna Nicole were to be married later this month legally...or so I hear...

And I tend to agree with MsMarple...they wanted to get a boat, live on it, and keep Danielynn away from a DNA test, so that HStern could "stay" the father and get her money.

From my experience and what I've always heard is anybody can be listed on a birth certificate as the father, but it doesn't make it so. Obviously, a DNA test is the final word on that...and there are men who petition the courts to have DNA tests run, whether to prove they are not the father or to prove that they are the father...

[msmarple]

Of course HE wouldn't have to stay on the boat ... (neither would ANS for that matter).

[nonesuche]

Mishy, there were legally married after all???????

now I am so worried what her will might say  

[msmarple]

Mishy, there were legally married after all???????

now I am so worried what her will might say  

No, None (!!) - Mishy is saying they were GOING to be married later this month in a "legal" ceremony.

[Leslie]

I wonder what is in Howard's will - does he leave everything to his wife Anna Nicole and their daughter Danielynn?  Let's see that document.  Who are the 2 witnesses (other than Howard) that must have signed AN's will to make it, in anyway, legal.    
I read that Howard flew to the Bahamas on Friday and took off with the baby to an undisclosed destination.
I guess the boat deal is off, unless the payment was cash or certified cheque as all of AN's money would be frozen for 30 days after her death.

[nonesuche]

YIKES, I've been so busy I haven't watched much about this but geez, I have this sick feeling ole Howard is going to get away clean with all of this? I did hear some legal analysts stating all these loopholes and it seems living in the Bahamas really did afford him the perfect venue to skirt many of the legalities?

Hi Msmarples, it's frightening isn't it?

[SteveDinMD]

I would imagine Larry Birkhead did the math and came up with a likely possibility - one in which he has some confidence.

As Steve suggested above, usually the men don't want to get to the point of a DNA test because they're fighting child support etc. Without the test, they can always DENY paternity.

I've thought a lot during the last decade or so about requiring DNA tests to determine the paternity of all out-of-wedlock children. There is no reason, with this technology, for an unwed mother to have to cope with the responsibility alone. So what if the father turns out to be married, or it's a statutory rape (with or without consent), or incest, or whatever ... I think it would go a long way toward lowering the statistics.

An unwed mother always has the option of naming the father, according to her recollection.  She may then prosecute a paternity lawsuit seeking child support if the named father denies paternity and refuses to pay support.  In the case of an indigent mother, the State will prosecute the case against the named father in order to recoup welfare money expended in support of the child.  In your scenario, whom would you test?  Whom would you NOT test?  Would you test the named father who denies paternity?  He'd be tested, anyway, under the current regime.  Would you test all known associates of the mother?  If so, where would you draw the line?  Some children are conceived in connection with one-night-stands where the father's identity is genuinely unknown to the mother.  If you fail to cast your net wide enough, the father will escape discovery.  Finally, if you can't draw a line, would you require all males to submit DNA samples in order to accumulate a comprehensive national DNA registry?  I don't know; that seems like quite an unreasonable imposition on people.  Moreover, with such a huge number of samples and tests, errors in procedure would be bound to produce misidentifications -- to the detriment of all.  

Taking things a bit further, why stop at "illegitimate" births?  Perhaps ALL births warrant this kind of scrutiny.  I would argue, though, that your program would cause more problems than it would solve.  Early in the 20th Century, blood testing programs by public health officials aimed at monitoring the spread of syphillis revealed an unexpected, yet disturbing, bit of information.  Statistical cross analyses between parents' and childrens' blood types revealed that up to 10% of children BORN IN WEDLOCK were fathered by men other than their mothers' husbands.  It would seem that those proberbial traveling salesmen were quite busy indeed!   %^)   Anyway, this information was so controversial and potentially explosive that it was supressed for many years.  I'm not sure we can take it for granted that modern trends in cuckoldry reveal a much lower incidence than those of 80+ years ago.  I would argue, then, that in the interest of domestic peace and tranquility the courts should not recognize any routine right of males to challenge the acknowledged paternity of others when corroborated by the biological mother.  Though this view would tend to benefit Howard K. Stern in the instant case, this is NOT my intention.  Rather, I believe that doing him (possibly deserved) injury is insufficient justification for upending 1000 years of common law precedent and thus inviting the inevitable social turmoil that would ensue.

[SteveDinMD]

It is true that methadone is being prescribed, in some cases, for severe pain; severe arthritis, for instance.  As for the 105 degree fever--well, I would think that any moron would have known to get her to a hospital immediately.

It is true.  Methadone is increasingly being prescribed for chronic and severe pain.  It's principal benefit, according to a news special I watched some weeks ago, is that it is less expensive than alternative medications, yet no more or less effective.  Insurance companies are thus favorably disposed to its being prescribed.  On the downside, it's reportedly not as safe as other medications.  The dosage window between efficacy and toxicity is supposedly very narrow, making overdoses -- especially lethal overdoses -- much more likely than with alternatives.  Complex, harmful drug interactions are also problematic, according to the report.

[darleenofalabama]

Long time, no see, Steve!  Nice to see you again.  And you are correct on all points you've made about methadone.

[msmarple]

Steve - Well, here's the thing: we didn't have the means for DNA testing 1000 or even 100 years ago, and I think women weren't even allowed to testify in court until the last century or so ...

I have heard about the study you cited and the unexpected results ...

No, I am not suggesting a DNA database (although it may eventually come to that - Law Enforcement I think wants one, and routine collection upon arrest?)

However, in most cases, the mother should be able to give the name(s) of "likely suspect(s)" to a health dept. or some such entity. When there's a "hit" another test can surely be done to verify ... Of course fear prevents this many times now; that's why I said REQUIRED.

I know it's a bit much, but as I said, I think it would be a BIG deterrent.

Note: I don't expect this to happen - not while the men are in charge!  

Thanks to you and Darleen for the information about methadone. But again, the last few things I've read aren't mentioning that particular drug (or any narcotics/illegal drugs) in the room.

Onward.

I just read that the Seminole Police Dept. (and I guess that hotel) are on the Seminole Indian Reservation. The Police Dept. doesn't have to share any information and is not required to do some of the things most LE would be.

Does anybody know why AHS et al were at that particular place? Was there some kind of business with the hotel or casino?

[sharon]

msmarple

The Hard Rock Resort & Casino is an enormous, muli-faceted vacation complex.

ANS has been a known guest several times -- so I read. There was a boxing match held there last month she attended. There's concert events and parties all the time. Many of the rich & famous stay there (when they're not in South Beach)

There's 14 restaruants and bars -- an Improv, an amphitheater, a regular theater, retail, a rocks and pool area.......

I was actually there on Wednesday. My parents neighborhood chartered a few buses and the seniors came down for the day. So I met them there.

VIP's don't usually gamble with the commoners in the main casino -- I hear they have VIP rooms

And yes -- it's on the Seminole land. Casinos are only allowed on Indian reservations in Florida. We have several (casinos as well as Indian reservations)

And btw -- the Seminole's just purchased the entire Hard Rock chain.

[SteveDinMD]

Steve - Well, here's the thing: we didn't have the means for DNA testing 1000 or even 100 years ago, and I think women weren't even allowed to testify in court until the last century or so ...

I acknowledge that DNA testing is an area of recent and continuing technical advancement.  I neither deny its probative value in adjudicating legal disputes, nor do I advocate excluding such evidence from court procedings.  I merely argue in favor of clearly circumscribing the conditions under which production of such evidence may be compelled.  In particular, I suggest that men be afforded no general right to challenge paternity of a child where both the biological mother and presumptive father agree on paternity, and that men should consequently enjoy no general right to compel production of DNA evidence pertaining to such matters.  Nevertheless, I could see there being possible exceptions to this rule.  For example, consider the case of a man whose pregnant wife who, upon giving birth, attributes paternity of her child to a man other than her husband.  Even if said man acknowledges paternity, I would be inclined to permit a paternity challenge by the husband.  The circumstances here are so narrow that there would be little possibility of general mischief.  Moreoever, in such a case the issues of paternal rights and the child's welfare are sufficiently conjoined so as not to argue against entertaining the cause of action.  The principal considerations should be reasonableness and proportionality, which mitigate against blanket recognition of sweeping new paternal rights.

[msmarple]

Hi Sharon, thanks for that info.

Yeah, I figured that about the casino and reservation - hadn't quite thought of the Police Dept. itself though. (I do know that many, if not all, tribes have their own - just had not occurred to me that it would be the investigative jurisdiction for this.)

But this time (visit) - do you think they were there on a pleasure trip? Was this ALL about buying a boat? Or any other reason we know of?

Gee, buying all of Hard Rock? Must be doing really well there ...  

[SteveDinMD]

Thanks to you and Darleen for the information about methadone. But again, the last few things I've read aren't mentioning that particular drug (or any narcotics/illegal drugs) in the room.

Hmm, I read a report yesterday that claimed prescription medications found in ANS' room specifically included:  Xanax, Vicodin, and Methadone.  I can't personally attest to the report's accuracy, however.

[SteveDinMD]

However, in most cases, the mother should be able to give the name(s) of "likely suspect(s)" to a health dept. or some such entity. When there's a "hit" another test can surely be done to verify ... Of course fear prevents this many times now; that's why I said REQUIRED.

I know it's a bit much, but as I said, I think it would be a BIG deterrent.

I don't see where this differs significantly from current practice.  The mother could always claim the father is "unknown," I suppose, but that possibility would exist in any case.

[SteveDinMD]

Long time, no see, Steve!  Nice to see you again.  And you are correct on all points you've made about methadone.

Hi Darleen!  It's been a while.

[sharon]

Hi Sharon, thanks for that info.

Yeah, I figured that about the casino and reservation - hadn't quite thought of the Police Dept. itself though. (I do know that many, if not all, tribes have their own - just had not occurred to me that it would be the investigative jurisdiction for this.)

But this time (visit) - do you think they were there on a pleasure trip? Was this ALL about buying a boat? Or any other reason we know of?

Gee, buying all of Hard Rock? Must be doing really well there ...  

Our news media has said that they all checked in Monday evening, and were scheduled to check out yesterday (Friday) morning.

No special reason other than buying a boat and staying at the HR -- because apparently ANS has stayed there quite a bit in the past. And appears to be well known with the 'regulars'. Several of which just showed up at the Hard Rock when they heard the devastating news.

As I mentioned, I was there during the day on Wednesday -- and nary a rumour of her being there. But I was in the general public area with the other 'common folk'.

Seminole's have jurisdiction in terms of the police. I was curious -- and just didn't have time to check -- about the coroner. I'm thinking that would be Broward County as she was declared dead at Memorial hospital in Hollywood -- which is NOT on Indian land.

They are also saying here that she was DOA. She was pretty much gone before she ever went into the ambulance. They had already tried recuscitation and the heart 'shockers'.

I don't know the rules for proclaiming someone dead -- I wonder if there was a reason she wasn't declared dead while she was still on the reservation?

[San]

Steve - Well, here's the thing: we didn't have the means for DNA testing 1000 or even 100 years ago, and I think women weren't even allowed to testify in court until the last century or so ...

I have heard about the study you cited and the unexpected results ...

No, I am not suggesting a DNA database (although it may eventually come to that - Law Enforcement I think wants one, and routine collection upon arrest?)

However, in most cases, the mother should be able to give the name(s) of "likely suspect(s)" to a health dept. or some such entity. When there's a "hit" another test can surely be done to verify ... Of course fear prevents this many times now; that's why I said REQUIRED.

I know it's a bit much, but as I said, I think it would be a BIG deterrent.

Note: I don't expect this to happen - not while the men are in charge!  

Thanks to you and Darleen for the information about methadone. But again, the last few things I've read aren't mentioning that particular drug (or any narcotics/illegal drugs) in the room.

Onward.

I just read that the Seminole Police Dept. (and I guess that hotel) are on the Seminole Indian Reservation. The Police Dept. doesn't have to share any information and is not required to do some of the things most LE would be.

Does anybody know why AHS et al were at that particular place? Was there some kind of business with the hotel or casino?

When I was watching Fox news yesterday the announcer said that a source of his said that there were two prescription drugs that were found in Anna Nicole's room and that the drugs were Valium and Methadone.

I repeat he said it was a source of his so we don't know how true that is.

[SteveDinMD]

I don't know the rules for proclaiming someone dead -- I wonder if there was a reason she wasn't declared dead while she was still on the reservation?

In most jurisdictions, a person may only be pronounced dead by a licensed physician.