RBN #21 - 6/24/05 Wee Hours of The Morning

[Curiosity]

Speaking of dad van der sloot's arrest, I really feel bad for his wife. THis must really be a crusher to first have her son arrested and now her husband. But I also think she's totally naive or not facing reality. On Greta's show she contradicts herself by saying there are rules (like being in by 11 PM) and in another sentence says they have tried giving more lieniency because Joren was graduating soon. To look at the various pictures that he posted on the web, Joren didn't slip out one night....he slipped out countless nights! Mama van der sloot isn't living in the real world of what her son is up to.

[momto5]

I apologize for posting, promise not to post again, didn't mean to ruin your morning, just thought post had interesting points........They were right, newbies aren't welcome here.

Maritzka, don't mind these guys.  For days people have been saying "would like to hear what a profiler has to say" - it was nice of you to share Dutchlady's post with us here.  Some of us like to look at all points of view.

I agree. There are always going to be people who dont agree or jump on someone for something. It doesnt mean everyone here feels that way. I read the post your shared and I like to have the opportunity to read diff points of view. That is what I thought this board was for. As with any board you will have ppl who dont agree with you or clicks so to speak. Dont let it deter you.

[air23ac]

regarding the fbi lowring its man count there........i think, in addition to, the fact that they are on the side lines so to speak.........there is a feeling that aruban defense lawyers will start trying to set the tone that it was american influence(fbi) and their clients were not treated fairly because of the pressure to solve the case for the americans....

i don't agree but i can see this being a reality.

[scared-tom]

A question for people who know law - does this ring any bells?

I believe that I have read that, in some places, it could be considered "premeditated" murder if you have a reasonable expectation that your neglect could cause someone to die and, yet, you do nothing.

For example, if you leave the scene of an accident where an injured person is without reporting it and the person dies of an injury as a result of this.

So in our case, Natalee is in a drug-induced coma, both Joran and his father are aware of this, and yet neither get her medical help and she dies.

Could this then be considered "premeditated" murder?

No. Prosecution would have a hard time proving that abandoment is murder. They can however demand jailtime up to nine years for abandonment of a person in need of help.

no it would be criminally negligent homicide at best and that presumes they have that offence in Aruba

it would normally be a manslaughter charge in that kind of case at maximum

No not manslaughter, abandoment is specifically covered in dutch law (art.255)

Thanks Gerben, that is some great information. I am not sure that the US law has that same category. We would consider it involuntary manslaughter.

[cancon]

that kidnapping was not in Aruba, that newsletter was from all over the Caribbean that kidnapping was from Dutch Guyana

[Harley]

however I would find it hard to believe you could do this often and get away with it, once maybe, but several times

though if you use the date rape drug, supposedly the women cannot remember or there may be some kinky chicks who enjoy that sort of thing?

that is why I am curious if this tape story is true because if it is, it is amazing these kids didn't get hauled into the station for this, maybe they did, maybe they got their knuckles rapped,  

I'd find it hard to believe someone wouldn't have squealed to a parent about this tape esp if it were your friend who was the victim?  because this tape was supposedly of an Aruban girl not a tourist

Actually I was thinking that a lot of women probably wouldn't report it happening, either because they were embarrassed or just because they really have no memory of what happened.  Even in the US a lot of rapes go unreported due to how victims get treated in the courtroom by the defense attorneys.

[momto5]

regarding the fbi lowring its man count there........i think, in addition to, the fact that they are on the side lines so to speak.........there is a feeling that aruban defense lawyers will start trying to set the tone that it was american influence(fbi) and their clients were not treated fairly because of the pressure to solve the case for the americans....

i don't agree but i can see this being a reality.

I also saw someone on Fox last night cant remember who though (was changing the baby) that said they felt as if the fbi might also be leaving bc they were not there to be anyones errand boys. In other words they are basically sitting on the sidelines at this point. They also said they would be involved with this case and continue giving the resources as long as they are asked to do so. The FBI is there as observers right now, how many do you need to observe the case? So this might also be why the cut back.

[Another K in Texas]

Perhaps in other cases, the victims were sexually active young females.  If a date rape drug is used, they might not even know what happened.  They get taken back to the hotel, they are to leave the next day, and the "fun" is undetected.

Suddenly they guessed wrong with Natalee.  She is inexperienced, so any sign of sexual activity would "show" so to speak.  Perhaps she did not dring enough of the drug, but woke up crying rape--with the physical evidence to prove it.  

I keep going back to maybe the dad actually is the one who killed her--perhaps to silence her screams.

[iquitos]

did we ever parse the "they (were joran and father) seen together at the casinos or mr. v/d sloot frequented the casinos''  rumors or did we buy them whole?  don't know where thus came from.

...and by the way it is a hoot how we have demonized gambling which is spreading like cancer in the us, lotteries, riverboats slots, indian casinos, why it is practically legalized!  is this another example of southern (demonize gambling and send your kid to a gambling haven for a senior trip) hypocrisy?

[mojo]

kidnapping is big business in central and south america why not the carribbean? but those kidnapped are usually known to the kidnappers. they're doing this for the money...why kidnap some unknown american?

and despite what the authorities may say, the families pay. our local aruban friends will know if this is a problem on the island.

[cancon]

there is some offence for leaving someone to die when you could have rendered them assistance, I just can't remember what it is

criminal negligent homicide I believe is when you do something that you knew would cause the death of a person

in manslaughter, I think there are two degress of manslaughter - one when you ought to have known your actions could cause someone's death,  and one where you had no intent but your actions did cause someone's death

[momto5]

did we ever parse the "they (were joran and father) seen together at the casinos or mr. v/d sloot frequented the casinos''  rumors or did we buy them whole?  don't know where thus came from.

...and by the way it is a hoot how we have demonized gambling which is spreading like cancer in the us, lotteries, riverboats slots, indian casinos, why it is practically legalized!  is this another example of southern (demonize gambling and send your kid to a gambling haven for a senior trip) hypocrisy?

I for one love gambling. I lived in southern Ca for 26 yrs and moved to NC a few yrs back. I know SC has gambling as my in laws go there frequently. You are correct however that many many southerners for some reason are against it. Point in case our state doesnt even have the lottery because some group here cries that it is a form of gambling, and somehow is therefore unchristian. I file it under souther folklore myself.

[Atlmetroguy]

did we ever parse the "they (were joran and father) seen together at the casinos or mr. v/d sloot frequented the casinos''  rumors or did we buy them whole?  don't know where thus came from.

...and by the way it is a hoot how we have demonized gambling which is spreading like cancer in the us, lotteries, riverboats slots, indian casinos, why it is practically legalized!  is this another example of southern (demonize gambling and send your kid to a gambling haven for a senior trip) hypocrisy?

Iquitos...I'm sorry but I have to take exception for your comment about "Southern Hypocrisy". I have big news for you there is hypocrisy all over the country and all over the world for that matter. We Southerners DO NOT have the corner on the market.

This whole situation is a tragedy for humanity. The potential loss of a young life with a bright future and chanve to make a difference in the world. This is a tragedy for all the Natalee's that are missing and/or dead. The grief of the families on both sides, the grief of all the Aruban's and the grief of all those in the states. My heart just aches over all this.

::back to lurk mode::

[friend of monkeys]

however I would find it hard to believe you could do this often and get away with it, once maybe, but several times

though if you use the date rape drug, supposedly the women cannot remember or there may be some kinky chicks who enjoy that sort of thing?

that is why I am curious if this tape story is true because if it is, it is amazing these kids didn't get hauled into the station for this, maybe they did, maybe they got their knuckles rapped,  

I'd find it hard to believe someone wouldn't have squealed to a parent about this tape esp if it were your friend who was the victim?  because this tape was supposedly of an Aruban girl not a tourist

     What if you went to polis and they
 blew u off  totally/blaming victim
OR what if u knew u polis liked the vidoes too/or knew polis already
knew of this activity and  consistently looked the other way?

[cancon]

Speaking of dad van der sloot's arrest, I really feel bad for his wife. THis must really be a crusher to first have her son arrested and now her husband. But I also think she's totally naive or not facing reality. On Greta's show she contradicts herself by saying there are rules (like being in by 11 PM) and in another sentence says they have tried giving more lieniency because Joren was graduating soon. To look at the various pictures that he posted on the web, Joren didn't slip out one night....he slipped out countless nights! Mama van der sloot isn't living in the real world of what her son is up to.

indeed, I thought it was funny when Jug Twitty was asked about Mrs. Kalpoe's interview with Greta, he said well at least Mrs. Kalpoe seems to know her sons a lot better than Mrs. Van Der Sloot knows her kid, she at least admitted to confronting her sons

[LemonDrop]

...and by the way it is a hoot how we have demonized gambling which is spreading like cancer in the us, lotteries, riverboats slots, indian casinos, why it is practically legalized!  is this another example of southern (demonize gambling and send your kid to a gambling haven for a senior trip) hypocrisy?

Who has demonized gambling?  It's a form of entertainment.  Some people gamble, others don't.

[Compananzi]

oh I just remembered, some smart posters at this forum also noted there was a special concert or festival going on in the area of the Holiday Inn and all the security guards were dressed in black

now again, if Joran's father is out partying in this vicinity instead of at home he would have seen all the security guards dressed in black, and indeed even the boys would have noticed all the security guards in black, so why not implicate a security guard  or guards dressed in black when you know the vicinity was crawling with guards dressed in black or in fact Joran may have seen a few of these guys near the Marriott, when they were off duty

how convenient, you have hundreds of potential suspects, then, perhaps it was by sheer accident they picked up John and Jones or maybe that was because John has been seen at the Holiday Inn that night and they knew Jones was his best buddy and trolled for chicks together

perhaps the old man VDS presumed it would take days to question all these security guards.......

Paulus really does not look like the partying type...He's 53, studying for his judgeship, and most Dutch people are really reserved.  Like the Brittish if there was a comparison.  BH does seem to think her daughter has been kidnapped, and I m not sure if a ransom was asked for?  If we go with this line of thought, how and where would the would be captors have gotten the idea of Nat being a perfect target?

[MominTN]

Speaking of dad van der sloot's arrest, I really feel bad for his wife. THis must really be a crusher to first have her son arrested and now her husband. But I also think she's totally naive or not facing reality. On Greta's show she contradicts herself by saying there are rules (like being in by 11 PM) and in another sentence says they have tried giving more lieniency because Joren was graduating soon. To look at the various pictures that he posted on the web, Joren didn't slip out one night....he slipped out countless nights! Mama van der sloot isn't living in the real world of what her son is up to.

I feel sorry for all of the mothers.  Children do not understand how much they worry their mothers and break their hearts when they do something wrong.  However, I do not pay much attention to what the mothers say about Joran and Kalpoe being good boys because all mothers think this and will say this after their kids are arrested.  It would mean more if other people outside the family made these statements but we haven't heard any.  I think the boys were living a much wilder free lifestyle than their parents will admit.  Perhaps their parents were too busy or self-absorbed and just didn't notice.  Alot of kids are good at fooling their parents.  I think the boys lead to Natalee's disappearance, no matter what their intentions were, and the mothers are going to have alot of grief to deal with when they find out the truth about what their boys did.  The boys will try to keep it from their mothers even if they are guilty.

[mojo]

exactly - i can't see natalie as a target either. and if anyone can bring up a documented story of an american being kidnapped and sold into slavery, i'd be very interested to read it.

[waited_too_long]

A question for people who know law - does this ring any bells?

I believe that I have read that, in some places, it could be considered "premeditated" murder if you have a reasonable expectation that your neglect could cause someone to die and, yet, you do nothing.

For example, if you leave the scene of an accident where an injured person is without reporting it and the person dies of an injury as a result of this.

So in our case, Natalee is in a drug-induced coma, both Joran and his father are aware of this, and yet neither get her medical help and she dies.

Could this then be considered "premeditated" murder?

No. Prosecution would have a hard time proving that abandoment is murder. They can however demand jailtime up to nine years for abandonment of a person in need of help.

no it would be criminally negligent homicide at best and that presumes they have that offence in Aruba

it would normally be a manslaughter charge in that kind of case at maximum

No not manslaughter, abandoment is specifically covered in dutch law (art.255)

Thanks Gerben, that is some great information. I am not sure that the US law has that same category. We would consider it involuntary manslaughter.

I agree, good information. There are pretty rigid guidelines even in the US on when a person must assist. Skiers involved in a collision, driver in an accident... There must be some special relationship betrween the individuals. Simply present when a victim is in respiratory arrest from accidental drug overdose? No.