Lively Case Discussion #549 11/27 - 11/28/2006

[Ono]

Paulus finally came out of the bushes, and I think there was a reason he invited Beth & Greta in.  He did not want them lurking outside, lest they find freshly dug dirt or plants.  One would be smart to check and see where the garden is the greenest.  There might be some clues there.  Ever notice how we go to old cemetaries to look for old garden roses that are still alive and doing well, despite the lack of care.

Yes...he was frantically adament when he finally made his way out from those bushes and down to the gate, to shoo away those filming FOX TV cameras. I think those see-all TV cameras compelled him to ask Beth & Greta inside. He was caught with his pants down...(not literally).

Yes, there was definitely a method to his madness and it was not to be hospitable to "seeing eyes" of Greta & Beth, quite the contrary, to keep them close to his seeing eyes, so they would not be snooping around with their cameramen.  I wonder if any of Beth's camera personnel ever found anything and she would not allow it be made public.  Seems possible because they went back repeatedly to see the monkey and feed it.  She might be afraid of trespassing charges or fear of the VDS family being found out for what they are.  She has some political contacts, herself, that are downright scary.

I have no doubt that there is plenty Beth hasn't wisely made public yet; Yes, those pointed trips of Beth & Greta back to visit and feed Mica meant more than just supplying bananas to a neglected & lonely monkey....

[Appeals]

Now I have a headache and am just plain angry.  If Janssen was present for that search, had a warrant for the entire compound in hand, why didn't she just order the cops to remove Witt or Paulus or King or anybody interfering with carrying out the warrant?  Now why is she telling about Carlos saying Joran was guilty?  Nothing good can come of that that I can see.  Is this some desperate bid to have the entire case thrown out of court now that deVries might uncover some of their tricks?

Why do monkeys think Joran had that sick photo made?  Wassup with that?  And to pay such a price for it, too.  It wasn't just a casual joke on his part to have that kind of investment in it.

Have to go work but this is just maddening.  I don't know how on earth Beth and Dave have kept their wits about them dealing with this.  I just cannot imagine knowing all this and that they are refusing to investigate, etc. and having to deal with them anyway because they are the only ones involved.  

I am trying to recall if we heard anything else about Paulus and the judges at the beginning.  One thing was that he played golf in Curacao with them.  Does anyone recall anything else?

I will be working and lurking. . . . . .

Okay, Anna has brought me out of hiding.  Hi everybody, nice to be able to drop in this morning.  Earning an income has taken me away for quite a while (sigh).

Some thoughts on questions posed by Anna and others in the last day or so:

1.  Could Carlos' visit to KJ have been an intentional play to breach the attorney client relationship so as to give a basis to defend his client? (Remember:  KJ is the one that fouled up the DNA test evidence in such a manner it could be thrown out)

2.  I think the "sick photo" was Joran's attempt to provide a possible book jacket.  Remember:  He was shopping around the idea of a book deal, per Nancy Grace, Feb 23, 2006.  The "deadline" mentioned in the email could have had to do with publishers he was talking to wanting him to provide some type of evidence for some ridiculous theory he was floating to them, such as he had known Natalee before she came to Aruba.  Or he could have just liked his dominant placement in relation to her).

3.  Carlos was removed as JVDS' attorney on 6/17/05.  Joran had been arrested on 6/9/05.  Carlos's meeting with KJ was shortly after JVDS was arrested according to DeVries.  KJ was in the position to engineer Carlos' removal as attorney using the "excuse" of his having tried to talk with the SG about the case.  I'm still trying to figure out how this fits together.

Okay, fading into background again, but before I do, must say to KLAAS, RED, and ALL YOU MONKEYS that keep hammering away at this...Awesome Job!  

[robots]

Joe Tacopina is on Fox.  He said De Vries is a materialist and capitalist and is tryinbg to make money.

Oh brother.. Him again ?? deVries is hitting some nerves!  

taco is a JACKASS

[Tylergal]

I noticed on Gretawire, (I went there for the first time in months today), there were not many e-mails regards the Natalee Holloway case and her special guest, Mr. DeVries.  I suppose I should have sent her one myself.  I want someone who has more patience than I to write her and tell her the reason she got so little e-mail regarding the case was not due to a lack of interest in the case but a lack of interest in her program since she chose darkness over light when she chose to believe the sporter with whom it appeared she was having a little interaction with on TV. Hmmm.  Makes ne wonder what her fellow Scientologists thought of the ittle "body talk" between her and the delicious sporter.

[thirdstrike]

Hey everyone!!  Hope all is well...

I've been gone a LONG time, so forgive my lack of info.  Is there coverage on the case with Greta soon?

[nonesuche]

Hi Third-

Greta had Beth and De Vries on by phone last night, I think Jacq and San both posted a transcript on the lively?

Anna-
I don't think that photo came from Dale, I've done some emailing today with some who know him, he never had access internally to Facebook. I also find it very interesting that pausebreak at RU posted on Sunday exactly which home that photo was taken in? Moving ahead with more digging on this now.....

[MuffyBee]

Hey everyone!!  Hope all is well...

I've been gone a LONG time, so forgive my lack of info.  Is there coverage on the case with Greta soon?

Hello Third.  Yes, you have been gone a LONG time...Not sure about the coverage on the case with Greta.  I had subscribed to Gretawire, but have since unsubscribed.

[Shizaru]

The crime scene was NOT the VDS home.  That is highly inconsistent with the evidence (text messages, polis car tape) and logic (2K have no motive to lie about dropoff point, ect).  IMO.

[MuffyBee]

The crime scene was NOT the VDS home.  That is highly inconsistent with the evidence (text messages, polis car tape) and logic (2K have no motive to lie about dropoff point, ect).  IMO.

If you think the crime scene wasn't the VDS home, do you think possibly there was evidence hidden there and that was why search of home not allowed?  Or was it not allowed to be searched to throw things off?

[Tylergal]

The crime scene was NOT the VDS home.  That is highly inconsistent with the evidence (text messages, polis car tape) and logic (2K have no motive to lie about dropoff point, ect).  IMO.

Shizaru, even our FBI on Fox admitted these text messages and so forth were red herrings they used to keep the dog off the trail and FBI believed they were all sitting within 2 feet of one another while messaging back and forth.

[Shizaru]

The crime scene was NOT the VDS home.  That is highly inconsistent with the evidence (text messages, polis car tape) and logic (2K have no motive to lie about dropoff point, ect).  IMO.

If you think the crime scene wasn't the VDS home, do you think possibly there was evidence hidden there and that was why search of home not allowed?  Or was it not allowed to be searched to throw things off?

I think PVDS didn't know for sure what happened and where, or what evidence might be found on his property, and just wasn't taking any chances.

[Tylergal]

The crime scene was NOT the VDS home.  That is highly inconsistent with the evidence (text messages, polis car tape) and logic (2K have no motive to lie about dropoff point, ect).  IMO.

If you think the crime scene wasn't the VDS home, do you think possibly there was evidence hidden there and that was why search of home not allowed?  Or was it not allowed to be searched to throw things off?

I think PVDS didn't know for sure what happened and where, or what evidence might be found on his property, and just wasn't taking any chances.

He would be wise to check with Anita first, before getting all flustered.  He and Anita both know but I think at this point, she has handled everything and has not told him where everything is in case he and/or the sporter have to pass a lie detector test, if ony for show, there will be no chance for them to fail it, the same reason she wanted to talk to Freddy in private.  What Paulus did not hear, he could not attest to on a lie detector test or otherwise, and it made the game plan easier for Anita to carry it out because she was not under the scrutiny of that silly old raising your hand and swearing or giving testimony or lie detectors, or giving testimony.

So much easier for Anita to be the catalyst with the refugees and Taco.

[San]

From Fox News the LIVE DESK w/Martha MacCallum:

Almost a year and a half since Natalee Hollow disappeared in Aruba but now there is a possible break in this case.  A Dutch TV show is claiming now that the Aruban Lawyer for the prime suspect Joran Van der Sloot met with the prosecutor in this case to talk about Joran guilt.  Can this be used against Joran Van der Sloot at this point?

From Aruba on the phone is Peter De Vries who is the Dutch Crime reporter who broke this story.  Peter good to have you with us today.

Peter:  Yeah hello Martha well I’m not at Aruba I am in Holland.

Martha:  Well alright well good to have you from Holland and thank you for very much for being with us.  Let me ask you a question and I’ve gone through some of what you said already but explain to our viewer exactly what you understand Joran’s lawyer told to Karin Janssen the prosecutor.

Peter:  What I found out is that the lawyer of Joran Mr. Carlo made an appointment with Head Prosecutor Karin Janssen and he said he wanted to talk with her and then she said well now I can’t do that that’s highly unusual, we can’t talk during an investigation.  But then he said I have to talk to you please and she admitted and she say OK you can come to my office and then the two had a talk and Mr. Carlo said yeah I have to clear my conscience I can tell you that my client Joran has played a major role in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway and I want you to know that and of course it’s up to you to deliver the full proof for that but I can tell you that he is playing a major role in this.

Matha:  And your reporting says that happened in June just a month after she disappeared is that correct?

Peter:  Yeah it was shortly after the arrest of Joran.

Martha:  Alright tell me what you think he meant by played a major part?  Was there any elaboration on that because I know you confronted him about this meeting?

Peter:  Yeah what I know is at least Karin Janssen the Head Prosecutor understood this that he has killed on the disappearance of Natalle that he has something to do with it.  So there is no misunderstanding about that because when they didn’t manage to solve this case Karen Janssen also wrote Mr. Carlo a letter a couple of months later and then she said can we please have a new talk about this?  Can you give some more details?  Then Mr. Carlo got scared because he thought that’s what he understood it was a secret meeting secret talk but when the Head Prosecutor was writing it down in a letter it was no longer a secret.

Martha:  Right that made him nervous to think about putting this down on paper.  Peter De Vries thank you so much.

On the phone from Alabama Beth Holloway Twitty:

Martha:  Beth welcome to you.

Beth:  Hi.

Martha:  Tell me what you think about this?

Beth:  Well I tell you I think Peter De Vries is just absolutely amazing.  I always thought someone from the Netherlands could help solve this and he has just been able to get in there and to get this confirmation that we’ve known all along that there were persons that were responsible for obstruction of justice and protecting the suspects and derailing the investigation.  He has given us that affirmation.

Martha:  You know of course lawyers for the other side and we’re going to talk to Joe Tacopina in a moment.  But they are going to say there is no evidence to support this and that the fact that he wouldn’t go back a write all this information down and document it discredits what he is saying.  What do you think about that Beth?

Beth:  Well I think they will always have to look at there were two personnel involved from the Aruban Justice Department and that is why we don’t have any evidence and that’s what Joran’s attorney will have to be reminded of.  It’s because of Bob Witt and Ben King stopped the search warrants.  It was made to initially search the entire area of Mon. 19 the garden, the buildings and everything but on the spot high ranking employee of the Justice Office Bob Witt reduced the search warrant to only the room of Joran so that’s why we don’t have any evidence because of involvement of the obstruction from the Aruban Justice Department personnel.

Matha:  Beth what do you think about the fact that he panicked.  He says that this lawyer panicked when he went and said to him you know this is the information I have.  What does that say to you about corruption we’ve heard so much about corruption in this situation.

Beth:  Well I think it just speaks (inaudible) highly that there was a lot of collusion involved and whether that’s you know from conflict of interest I mean it might be a another way of putting it, a milder form of corruption.  But you know certainly there were many red flags that were going on as far as collusion from the personnel within the Aruban Justice Department with the father and Antonio Carlo and we can’t deny that.  Now we have names and faces of these persons.

Martha:  Alright.  Beth just quickly very quickly in 5 seconds or10 seconds can you tell me you’ve often said that there is information that you have that you can’t put out there.  Did you know any of this?  Did you know about this conversation between this lawyer can you substantiate that and prosecutor.

Beth:  You know we always knew like I said we would take one step forward but then we knew there were persons in front moving but you know we could not get any vindication or affirmation that this was actually any of these persons were that were actually doing this and so now like I said we have these faces we knew this was going on this undercurrent to the investigation but we just couldn’t get the names and faces and now we finally have them.

Joe Tacopina from Rome Italy:

Martha:  What do you make of these revelations from this reporter in the Netherlands?

Joe:  What I make of it Martha is another individual trying to cash in on this tragedy this guy is a materialist, he’s a capitalist; he is someone is making money off of a false story.  I spoke to Antonio Carlo the former lawyer for Joran; he made no such statement to the prosecutor and let me tell you this I’ve looked through every single document in this case.  Every police report every prosecutors note there is no such document in this case.  Every police report every prosecutors note there is no such document that supports any such claim and when you couple that with the fact that this individual didn’t even have the wherewithal to document these very important conversations Martha at the time they were going on and didn’t report that to law enforcement I mean it shows you his true motive.  He’s trying to make his splash he is trying to get himself all over the news which is what people have done repeatedly in this case.  This is another one of these tragic instances in the Holloway/Van der Sloot investigation which you have people coming up with false stories.  You’ve heard about this Dr. Phil tape that turned out to be a doctored tape where Deepak Kalpoe was supposedly confessing.  Beth Holloway did the same thing with that she got on the air and said finally we knew there was a confession.  That turned out to be false.  You heard about false confessions while they were in jail that they all admitted to the crime, turned out to be false.  It’s just another instance where it’s just an act of desperation on Ms. Holloway’s part and we understand her desire to get this case resolved but I think if she did what Greta Van Susteren’s doing and the prosecutors for all that matter taking a broader look at this case.  Looking at other areas other leads they’ve looked at Joran Van der Sloot up and down he is not involved in Natalee’s disappearance.  The prosecutors have all but dropped their case against him.  The lawsuit that Ms. Holloway filed against our client was dismissed in New York courts.

Martha:  Right there were no grounds for it in New York according to that judge.  Just to go back for one minute to the Joran Van der Sloot household.  You know this question of how much an area they could search.  According to this reporter Mr. De Vries he says the search warrant would have allowed them to search the entire property but when they got there they were told by a Justice Department official who answered the door that they would only be allowed to search Joran’s house what do you know about that?  Joran’s room excuse me.

Joe:  Right well Joran’s room is separate quarters and that the judge specifically ordered that his living quarters be searched.  So I’m sorry if people are upset that the police have to comply with the courts orders but that’s what they were asked to do that’s what the court gave them permission to do and that’s what they did they turned his room his apartment upside down.  As far as being in the house I mean look they’ve had at it with the Van der Sloots.  They’ve had Joran in jail for three months they’ve had Mr. Van der Sloot in jail for many days, weeks and there is nothing that came out of this they did a search.  I mean they’ve turned Aruba upside down every grain of sand has been moved so let’s not pretend that they missed you know the evidence.  They’ve missed the body of Natalee in the Van der Sloot household.  Many people have been in and out of that household in the last year and a half.

[Tylergal]

Hey, San, thank you so much for tihs transcript.  I really needed to go back over it although I had heard it, because I wanted to scrutinize the Joe TacoToast statements (urrhhh, lies).  Yep.

What is a medley relay?  Is it four players who pass off to one another, as in if I send you a letter in New York, San, and you send it to Washington, D.C. and that sender mails it to Arkansas, and that person sends it to Aruba, is that like a medley relay?

[klaasend]

{snipped}

Joe: What I make of it Martha is another individual trying to cash in on this tragedy this guy is a materialist, he’s a capitalist; he is someone is making money off of a false story. I spoke to Antonio Carlo the former lawyer for Joran; he made no such statement to the prosecutor and let me tell you this I’ve looked through every single document in this case

hmmm....former?

[Tylergal]

I'll bet he did get in touch with Antonio or Antonio with him.  I bet their lines were hotter than $2 pistol.  Trapped in their own lies.  Makes someone like a taco stay up night trying to cover the tails of those who tell the tales.

[igsigs]

{snipped}

Joe: What I make of it Martha is another individual trying to cash in on this tragedy this guy is a materialist, he’s a capitalist; he is someone is making money off of a false story. I spoke to Antonio Carlo the former lawyer for Joran; he made no such statement to the prosecutor and let me tell you this I’ve looked through every single document in this case

hmmm....former?

That MF post you brought over this morning indicated that Carlo is still his lawyer. Taco is a dumbass, IMO.

SAN- thanks for trans!

[Tylergal]

Anytime we start getting close to outing them, the Refugees go wild.  Find out who it is they are "dissing" the worst and you will know who is closest to the truth.  They abhor anyone close to the truth.

[truthseeker2]

The crime scene was NOT the VDS home.  That is highly inconsistent with the evidence (text messages, polis car tape) and logic (2K have no motive to lie about dropoff point, ect).  IMO.

I guess if you buy into the text messages, or even if you consider the text messages as 'for real" I don't think they rule out the scene of the crime as being the VDS property.  The test messages could have been sent during the "first attempt to dispose of the body" as a cover.  

One thing I remember from the polis car tape was Deepak saying to Joran something about "your own father".  Earlier upthread there was a brief discussion about Joran procuring for someone else.  Could have been PVDS??  

If you followed any of the Shango/Simian, "Simian Says: June 26th, 2005 at 10:24 pm
The boy is no Ajax. He is too afraid of the consequences. He doesn’t want to be made a cafone.
The third act needs to be played and the cowboys will be heroes.
This is all a “lugubrious game" to them. They were all at the party and all of them are turning their heads.
One of them needs to be pinched. "

Look up "lugubrious game " and you will find this is a painting by Dali, one of sexual perversion and castration.  You can also find opinons of Dali's subconscious motives for this painting, some of which may just apply to PVDS as well.

Joran himself put them all at or outside his home when he did the interview with Greta.  Why?  He said they never got out of the car. Why?  Because he knew they may have been seen there, or at least the car was seen there?  Maybe ole Paulus was having his own little party while Mama Sloot was away.  With a few friends over, too.

If Paulus was the man seen at the blackjack table that night with the MB students and Joran, could it be possible that he selected Natalee for himself and Joran paid the K2's to drive him out to get her?  Weren't there some rumors about ATM's in the early morning hours?  The K2's may have already been paid drivers earlier, but more money would be needed for grave digging.

I think the possibility of the VDS home being the crime scene is as good as any.  But....who really knows?

[thirdstrike]

Yeah, based on hearing this, I'd bet the farm (wait, a farm in Los Angeles??  My bad...) that there was such a notification made by Joran's "former" attorney.  But, Taco's just doing what he's being paid to do...and, that's being slimy!

As for this special...again, I've been away for a while.  Have we here in the US been able to see that De Vries special anywhere (internet, TV, or otherwise)?