Kyron Horman, 7 years old, PORTLAND, OR #36 11/21/10 - 12/05/10

[Puzzler]

He SAYS she was passsed out drunk a few times a week.Sometimes at 1 am he would find Kiara up and put her to bed.
Where was he at 8 pm ? 
Does this guy sound like he was interested in Kiara and her well being ?  Before this happened?
Oh and he SAYS he was a primary care giver.    As he worked at home several days a week.
No one would have expected him to breathalyze her or investigate her, but if he was in the house so much, was he deaf, dumb and blind ?
Wife dislikes him so much, she talks to a LS guy about killing him and he didn't pick up on any clues to her dislke or hate ?
Sounds like he checked out mentally or physically months before this happened.  

 Terri was the one who emailed Desiree frequently about Kyron, not Kaine. 
I am going to say something, don't hit me. Was this " not an option " that Desiree have Kyron to do with child support ? Kaine makes a good wage, seemed to have money for trips and toys ( red Mustang ), etc. If he had to pay child support for Kyron and Kiara and alimony or a settlement to Terri , his lifestyle would not have been the same, would it ?   

IF Kyron comes back he won't be with Kaine would he ? No court would ever let him have Kyron again. 

My sentiments exactly, while Terri is accountable a marriage takes two and two that are engaged in the day to day activities of their children, wife/husband so accountability cuts both ways..........my responses BBM and ITA. I also agree that is he comes back I think Desiree should have Kyron unless there are some skeletons in her closet we don't know about, but I want Kitty and Ky to have a GAL appointed since he does seem to have checked out a long time ago IMO MOO

Having a guardian ad litem appointed is something I believe we will see in at least Kiara's future...for a variety of reasons...mainly that it seems the right thing to do at this point.

[sebastian]

Alcoholism is a family disease for a very good reason.  The roles and denial of all people involved.

Alcoholism is a very complicated disease.

Thank you Desdemona for all that info on female alkies.

I do not feel Kaine's statements are contradictory at all.  I  have listened to and watched people that are alcoholics.

It is amazing the stories that they come up with to deny their illness . Their families believe them. 

Until even the families see that there is a problem.  Sometimes the families never see it.  Quite often the alkie doesn't see the problem.

Very very interesting cunning disease.

I think the AA book says something about being powerless over alcohol, and I think the corresponding Al Anon literature says the same thing.

In my opinion, Kaine cannot have it both ways. Either she was stumbling down junk, slurring her speech, etc. or he did not know she had a problem. Which is it? I hate that he continues to make inconsistent stories. I want to feel compassion for him. Terri had a DUI in the past, while her son James was in the car. Child endangerment! Did he forget about that? Was she spending all his money as he stated in the beginning or did they have seperate accounts as he states now? What about PPD? Is that still true, or is that now out the window and the alcohol has now taken its place. Was he cheating on Desiree with Terri, or does Desiree have it confused? The MFH plot? Was that real, if so why isn't Terri sitting in jail? Do not misunderstand me. I have no compassion at this point for Terri either. The longer she sits at her parents with her mouth closed, the more I feel she was involved to some degree. I just think that there is much more to this story that we have no idea about yet. All I am getting from Terri and Kaine is silence and inconsistencies. It is mind boggling while this innocent little boy is still missing.

Sebastian,  I have been feeling the same way for awhile now.  How can his court documents portray TH as a falling-down drunk, but then he says he didn't see it?  I feel so bad for the entire family, and yes, I do believe that TH knows something, but dammit, why can't everyone just be truthful???

Hi Joni,
I hear you about people being truthful! I have always gotten a hinky feeling about ANYONE once I catch them in a lie. I just feel like he spends a lot of time doing damage control for things he says but when he starts talking again, it is a whole new story.

[Joni97103]

Hi Joni,
I hear you about people being truthful! I have always gotten a hinky feeling about ANYONE once I catch them in a lie. I just feel like he spends a lot of time doing damage control for things he says but when he starts talking again, it is a whole new story.
[/quote]

Exactly Sebastian!

I don't feel that Kaine has any responsibility whatsoever in Kyron's disappearance, but I just haven't liked him from the start.  Don't get me wrong, I HATE what he is going through, but he just seems so calculating.  The stories just don't add up.  When Desiree basically said last week that she just couldn't accept some of his actions, that summed it up for me.

[Joni97103]

Darn...was trying not to post the entire long post and it came out funny looking...sorry

[sebastian]

He SAYS she was passsed out drunk a few times a week.Sometimes at 1 am he would find Kiara up and put her to bed.
Where was he at 8 pm ? 
Does this guy sound like he was interested in Kiara and her well being ?  Before this happened?
Oh and he SAYS he was a primary care giver.    As he worked at home several days a week.
No one would have expected him to breathalyze her or investigate her, but if he was in the house so much, was he deaf, dumb and blind ?
Wife dislikes him so much, she talks to a LS guy about killing him and he didn't pick up on any clues to her dislke or hate ?
Sounds like he checked out mentally or physically months before this happened.  

 Terri was the one who emailed Desiree frequently about Kyron, not Kaine. 
I am going to say something, don't hit me. Was this " not an option " that Desiree have Kyron to do with child support ? Kaine makes a good wage, seemed to have money for trips and toys ( red Mustang ), etc. If he had to pay child support for Kyron and Kiara and alimony or a settlement to Terri , his lifestyle would not have been the same, would it ?   

IF Kyron comes back he won't be with Kaine would he ? No court would ever let him have Kyron again. 

My sentiments exactly, while Terri is accountable a marriage takes two and two that are engaged in the day to day activities of their children, wife/husband so accountability cuts both ways..........my responses BBM and ITA. I also agree that is he comes back I think Desiree should have Kyron unless there are some skeletons in her closet we don't know about, but I want Kitty and Ky to have a GAL appointed since he does seem to have checked out a long time ago IMO MOO

Most toddlers are in bed early...before adults go to bed.  Is it that Kaine was going to bed "before" Kiara?  If not, then how did Kaine know that Kiara was still up at 1:00 in the morning and that Terri was passed out drunk....several times a week.  Did Kaine go to bed before the toddler's bedtime and then get up in the very early morning hours to check out Terri and Kiara?  See....this is hinky.

Yes, Puzzler it is more than hinky for me. If he found Terri passed out drunk several times a week, how is it that he was able to then go off to work in the morning and leave BOTH Kyron and Kiara in her care? Then he has the gall to say that he will not be held hostage? Huh? How about just admitting that either A. Terri was not a raging alcholic or B. Terri was a raging alcholic and he could not be bothered to do anything about it, like protecting his children. I am sorry, but when you leave your child alone with an alcoholic, a drug addict or a physically abusive person, YOU ARE NOT PROTECTING YOUR CHILDREN!

[Puzzler]

LE in this case has been disappointing too. Co$pared to another recent case, they look like amatures. I am a very strong believer in "Things aren't always what they appear to be". Based on that, we need more information, in 6 months, a GJ- why hasn't there been an arrest?

MK - agree that LE has been disappointing.  When I compare them to NC LE (Zahra's case).  Wow...what a difference.  In that case, LE was upfront, allowed the press to be very involved, the public has known all along what's going on and the progress they're making. NC LE has done a superb job in handling their case.  I don't want to infer that OR LE hasn't worked hard in their case.  That isn't it.  But I am disappointed that they don't come out an talk for themselves, that they give the parents tidbits of information, knowing the parents will go out.  However, IMO, it's tantamount to "using" the parents and I don't like that aspect.  Also, LE hasn't let out any real information and have manufactured photos to present for people to come to them with "independent" recollections (oxymoron). 

GJ - according to what we've heard, the GJ has talked with hundreds of people...still no arrest?  It's sounding to me like Stanton still doesn't have the concrete evidence he needs.

Significantly different types of cases, IMO, FWIW.

Definately different types of cases.  Doesn't negate that GJ has talked with hundreds of people and still no arrest.  Yes, there may be an indictment that we don't know about, but there has been no arrest.  If there was an indictment, why hold off on the arrest.  Either there's enough for an indictment or there's not.  After all this time, "anybody" involved in this case is aware of the investigation and they might get arrested at any minute. To think that if there's an indictment against Terri and they're holding off on arresting her because the clock would begin ticking - is mixing up stuff - either there's enough for the indictment and it's okay for the clock to start ticking or there's no quite enough for an indictment yet and the clock shouldn't start ticking, so no arrest. 

It's pretty simple.  Even if LE thinks someone else is involved and going after that person and don't want to mess up the opportunity to get that person...IMO..."that person" is aware (more than any of us are aware) that he/she/they might get arrested.  Arresting Terri won't stop arresting others on the radar.  And to say that "other" might run and skip town if LE's hand is shown and Terri's arrested...well...that's LE's job - to keep other under surveillance and to catch them in the act of trying to flee (fleeing = conscious act of guilt).

It's been too long - if there's an indictment, it should be acted upon - and if others are under the radar, then LE needs to continue going after the others.  If there's an indictment or indictments determined, the arrest(s) could bring out the concrete evidence on any others that LE wants. 

I'm no longer enamored in the thought process that GJ for months meeting with hundreds of witnesses has possibly filed and indictment and its under seal waiting on "whatever".  Nope. 

Respectfully, LE is not GJ nor DA's office.  And while I agree with you that it is highly unlikely that an indictment has been handed down, I must respectfully disagree that this issue is "pretty simple."

Des...you're right...this issue probably really isn't that simple and maybe I'm a little over-zealous out of frustration with what I "perceive" to be nothing happening.  It's snowing in Oregon, and while that's a small thing...it really bummed me out today thinking about how cold it is and wet (been raining for days, too - I know it's the rainy season there) and wondering where is Kyron.  Then with all the silence from some and the contradictory statements from others, I just wish the adults would get over themselves and focus on the only thing that really matters here - finding Kyron.

I was trying to say that I think if they have enough on Terri, then arrest her...get the ball rolling...that may be the only way she'll start talking about what she knows.  Since I haven't seen an arrest after all this GJ time, the only thing I can take from that is that the DA doesn't think he has enough evidence to get a conviction in court.  That's the kind of simple I meant:  if the evidence is there, arrest her. 

Another frustrating thing is that I was hopeful for a long time that the DA was holding off on arresting Terri due to trying to get information on an accomplice(s) and not wanting to arrest Terri too soon and harm the investigation into anyone else.  I no longer think that way. 

 

[Joni97103]

Thanksgiving is in two days...wouldn't it be wonderful if a little boy named Kyron Horman got dropped off at a police station or hospital tomorrow, which would give us an incredible amount to be thankful for?  I know it's wishful thinking, but if Kyron IS alive, this is the time of year when whomever is holding him might have second thoughts about what they are doing....and decides to give in and give him up.

I can dream, right?  And hope...there is always hope

[Joni97103]

LE in this case has been disappointing too. Co$pared to another recent case, they look like amatures. I am a very strong believer in "Things aren't always what they appear to be". Based on that, we need more information, in 6 months, a GJ- why hasn't there been an arrest?

MK - agree that LE has been disappointing.  When I compare them to NC LE (Zahra's case).  Wow...what a difference.  In that case, LE was upfront, allowed the press to be very involved, the public has known all along what's going on and the progress they're making. NC LE has done a superb job in handling their case.  I don't want to infer that OR LE hasn't worked hard in their case.  That isn't it.  But I am disappointed that they don't come out an talk for themselves, that they give the parents tidbits of information, knowing the parents will go out.  However, IMO, it's tantamount to "using" the parents and I don't like that aspect.  Also, LE hasn't let out any real information and have manufactured photos to present for people to come to them with "independent" recollections (oxymoron). 

GJ - according to what we've heard, the GJ has talked with hundreds of people...still no arrest?  It's sounding to me like Stanton still doesn't have the concrete evidence he needs.

Significantly different types of cases, IMO, FWIW.

Definately different types of cases.  Doesn't negate that GJ has talked with hundreds of people and still no arrest.  Yes, there may be an indictment that we don't know about, but there has been no arrest.  If there was an indictment, why hold off on the arrest.  Either there's enough for an indictment or there's not.  After all this time, "anybody" involved in this case is aware of the investigation and they might get arrested at any minute. To think that if there's an indictment against Terri and they're holding off on arresting her because the clock would begin ticking - is mixing up stuff - either there's enough for the indictment and it's okay for the clock to start ticking or there's no quite enough for an indictment yet and the clock shouldn't start ticking, so no arrest. 

It's pretty simple.  Even if LE thinks someone else is involved and going after that person and don't want to mess up the opportunity to get that person...IMO..."that person" is aware (more than any of us are aware) that he/she/they might get arrested.  Arresting Terri won't stop arresting others on the radar.  And to say that "other" might run and skip town if LE's hand is shown and Terri's arrested...well...that's LE's job - to keep other under surveillance and to catch them in the act of trying to flee (fleeing = conscious act of guilt).

It's been too long - if there's an indictment, it should be acted upon - and if others are under the radar, then LE needs to continue going after the others.  If there's an indictment or indictments determined, the arrest(s) could bring out the concrete evidence on any others that LE wants. 

I'm no longer enamored in the thought process that GJ for months meeting with hundreds of witnesses has possibly filed and indictment and its under seal waiting on "whatever".  Nope. 

Respectfully, LE is not GJ nor DA's office.  And while I agree with you that it is highly unlikely that an indictment has been handed down, I must respectfully disagree that this issue is "pretty simple."

Des...you're right...this issue probably really isn't that simple and maybe I'm a little over-zealous out of frustration with what I "perceive" to be nothing happening.  It's snowing in Oregon, and while that's a small thing...it really bummed me out today thinking about how cold it is and wet (been raining for days, too - I know it's the rainy season there) and wondering where is Kyron.  Then with all the silence from some and the contradictory statements from others, I just wish the adults would get over themselves and focus on the only thing that really matters here - finding Kyron.

I was trying to say that I think if they have enough on Terri, then arrest her...get the ball rolling...that may be the only way she'll start talking about what she knows.  Since I haven't seen an arrest after all this GJ time, the only thing I can take from that is that the DA doesn't think he has enough evidence to get a conviction in court.  That's the kind of simple I meant:  if the evidence is there, arrest her. 

Another frustrating thing is that I was hopeful for a long time that the DA was holding off on arresting Terri due to trying to get information on an accomplice(s) and not wanting to arrest Terri too soon and harm the investigation into anyone else.  I no longer think that way. 

 

This is what is so frustrating Puzzler...IF they had enough evidence, either on Kyron's disappearance or the supposed MFH plot, you would think they'd have arrested someone.  But they haven't.  And there are no rumblings (that we know of), that an arrest is forthcoming anytime soon. 

[sebastian]

Hi Joni,
I hear you about people being truthful! I have always gotten a hinky feeling about ANYONE once I catch them in a lie. I just feel like he spends a lot of time doing damage control for things he says but when he starts talking again, it is a whole new story.

Exactly Sebastian!

I don't feel that Kaine has any responsibility whatsoever in Kyron's disappearance, but I just haven't liked him from the start.  Don't get me wrong, I HATE what he is going through, but he just seems so calculating.  The stories just don't add up.  When Desiree basically said last week that she just couldn't accept some of his actions, that summed it up for me.
[/quote]

I don't know what I believe anymore with regards to who took little Kyron. The only parent who APPEARS to really be suffering is Desiree. I have no idea what goes on behind closed doors. I guess I have a hard time with both Kaine and Terri because of that old "that is not what I would do in their situation". Sometimes I need to remind myself that everyone is different and reacts to things differently. I am glad that both Desiree and Kaine are still in the media, keeping Kyron's name and face out there. I just wish that Kaine would keep his stories straight. It is hard to explain. I guess I find it insulting. It is almost as if Kaine thinks he can say one thing on minute and another thing another minute and just assume that everyone will lap it up because "he said so." I have not had a warm feeling about Kaine since the very beginning. I cannot help my feelings on that. If Terri were ever to be found innocent of any wrong doing with regards to Kyron, I would still think she is the most selfish woman in the world for staying quiet all this time and only looking out for her own arz when this sweet little boy is missing. JMO

[Joni97103]

Hi Joni,
I hear you about people being truthful! I have always gotten a hinky feeling about ANYONE once I catch them in a lie. I just feel like he spends a lot of time doing damage control for things he says but when he starts talking again, it is a whole new story.

Exactly Sebastian!

I don't feel that Kaine has any responsibility whatsoever in Kyron's disappearance, but I just haven't liked him from the start.  Don't get me wrong, I HATE what he is going through, but he just seems so calculating.  The stories just don't add up.  When Desiree basically said last week that she just couldn't accept some of his actions, that summed it up for me.

I don't know what I believe anymore with regards to who took little Kyron. The only parent who APPEARS to really be suffering is Desiree. I have no idea what goes on behind closed doors. I guess I have a hard time with both Kaine and Terri because of that old "that is not what I would do in their situation". Sometimes I need to remind myself that everyone is different and reacts to things differently. I am glad that both Desiree and Kaine are still in the media, keeping Kyron's name and face out there. I just wish that Kaine would keep his stories straight. It is hard to explain. I guess I find it insulting. It is almost as if Kaine thinks he can say one thing on minute and another thing another minute and just assume that everyone will lap it up because "he said so." I have not had a warm feeling about Kaine since the very beginning. I cannot help my feelings on that. If Terri were ever to be found innocent of any wrong doing with regards to Kyron, I would still think she is the most selfish woman in the world for staying quiet all this time and only looking out for her own arz when this sweet little boy is missing. JMO
[/quote]

My thoughts EXACTLY!  For quite some time now 

[Puzzler]

Alcoholism is a family disease for a very good reason.  The roles and denial of all people involved.

Alcoholism is a very complicated disease.

Thank you Desdemona for all that info on female alkies.

I do not feel Kaine's statements are contradictory at all.  I  have listened to and watched people that are alcoholics.

It is amazing the stories that they come up with to deny their illness . Their families believe them. 

Until even the families see that there is a problem.  Sometimes the families never see it.  Quite often the alkie doesn't see the problem.

Very very interesting cunning disease.

I think the AA book says something about being powerless over alcohol, and I think the corresponding Al Anon literature says the same thing.

hellokitty ... I agree with a lot of what you've said in your post. People who drink excessively become very clever in hiding their drinking and making excuses, etc., and those people around them want to believe them and accept what excuses are put forth.  I know this is so.  I agree.

But, once a person progresses to drinking so heavily they're passing out drunk - the abuse is visible - and if a person is passing out drunk several nights a week - the abuse is extreme and that person needs help. 

The more I think about this, the more questions I have (as I've said several times about this case: the more I learn, the more I realize I don't know). 

I can only speak for myself, but if my spouse were drinking to such extremes, I certainly wouldn't leave my little boy and toddler with that person to take care of while I had to go to work...I just couldn't do it.  Red flags!!!

And I've just start to question tonight about why wasn't Kiara in bed before Kaine went to bed?  Was Kaine going to bed so early in the evenings?

[Puzzler]

Thanksgiving is in two days...wouldn't it be wonderful if a little boy named Kyron Horman got dropped off at a police station or hospital tomorrow, which would give us an incredible amount to be thankful for?  I know it's wishful thinking, but if Kyron IS alive, this is the time of year when whomever is holding him might have second thoughts about what they are doing....and decides to give in and give him up.

I can dream, right?  And hope...there is always hope

Hope..definately..think "Elizabeth Smart".

[sebastian]

I read somewhere that Kiara was staying with Kaine's parents. Does anyone know if that is true or have a link to it? Isn't Kristain Horman due to get out of jail or already out? I wonder where he is or will be staying? Hopefully not in the same house with Kiara.

[Joni97103]

I read somewhere that Kiara was staying with Kaine's parents. Does anyone know if that is true or have a link to it? Isn't Kristain Horman due to get out of jail or already out? I wonder where he is or will be staying? Hopefully not in the same house with Kiara.

I heard that too, but have no recollection of where - Kaine has a demanding job, and even if he can work from home, he still has to be able to work; certainly cannot take care of a 2 yr old. 

[Puzzler]

This is an interesting post from BOC.  On Blink's site, the posters have been really looking hard at LE comments and requests with respect to white trucks and where they were parked at the school on the day Kyron went missing. 

http://blinkoncrime.com/2010/11/02/kyron-horman-case-terri-horman-sexts-sent-to-kaine-hormans-phone-what/#comments

enumclawrose says:
November 23, 2010 at 9:24 pm
puzzled says:
November 23, 2010 at 10:15 am

@Rosey … you are so right on this. I was confusing myself by thinking the white truck that was seen by witnesses was #2, but it wasn’t, it clearly was the Horman truck. So why did LE want witnesses to think there was a white truck on access road and that maybe it was the Horman truck? And this is the truck Desiree thinks Ky was seen at. Uh-oh. So, is the 2nd white truck, parked in the back, even involved?
__________________________________________________________________
Here’s what I am wondering, if LE knows there are two white trucks and the locations are #1 Horman truck parked on the shoulder, and #2 other white truck parked in the back lot, then why are they trying to substantiate a truck on the access road?

My best conclusion is that the white truck parked in the back lot was not supposed to be there (ie. in proximity to where they think the abduction occured). So that person tells LE that they were parked on the access road, but LE cannot find anyone else who saw “them?” on that access road, not even GK Dave. Yet LE does find people that did see the white truck in the back lot.

I’m sure LE identifies people that own white trucks that were at the science fair, but it is days after the abduction. The perp could be hiding in plain sight. They know (by witness account) it was a white truck, parked in the back lot, but no one will say they parked in that location. So LE asks where did you park? “Who me? I parked on the access road.”

[theboyzmom]

Alcoholism is a family disease for a very good reason.  The roles and denial of all people involved.

Alcoholism is a very complicated disease.

Thank you Desdemona for all that info on female alkies.

I do not feel Kaine's statements are contradictory at all.  I  have listened to and watched people that are alcoholics.

It is amazing the stories that they come up with to deny their illness . Their families believe them. 

Until even the families see that there is a problem.  Sometimes the families never see it.  Quite often the alkie doesn't see the problem.

Very very interesting cunning disease.

I think the AA book says something about being powerless over alcohol, and I think the corresponding Al Anon literature says the same thing.

You are correct - the AA Big Book says that we are powerless over alcohol - but it mentions it only once. The reason I, from personal experience, believe that TH is likely an alcoholic is her behavior. I have never seen her drunk, since I do not know her. But I do know her actions. She is very self centered. She does not seem to take responsibility for her actions. The AA Big Book says "Our actor is self-centered-ego-centric, as people like to call it nowadays." and "Selfishness-self-centeredness! That, we think, is the root of our troubles. Driven by a hundred forms of fear, self-delusion, self-seeking, and self-pity, we step on the toes of our fellows and they retaliate."  My personal opinion is that this fits the public image of TH,

IMO this supports KH claim that TH is an alcoholic (which is very different from a "drinking problem").  No one in my position makes a diagnosis as that is something the person must come to themselves but I do have the ability to spot the traits.

As for KH not doing anything about the drinking - I am not surprised. KH was likely overwhelmed by the problem. It is extreamly common for spouses/family of the alcoholic to just try to not make waves. They hope against hope the promises of the alcoholic that they will stop or change the behavior. Heck, the alcoholic believes that they will be able to change or control the behavior. Until the delusion that they can control or enjoy their drinking, the alcoholic will not make any real efforts at changing.

The long and short of it is that KH may have known he needed to do something different since it was not safe to have TH around the kids BUT he may have still had the flickering hope that TH would change. Most non-alcoholics that have not dealt with an recovered alcoholic have no clue what true powerlessness is. Heck, even my hubby does not get how I could walk into somewhere to get a Diet Coke and end up drunk. No matter how many times I tried, I always ended up drunk. I really did not want to.

I will tell a short story to show how good we are at fooling people - near the end of my drinking, my husband was worried that I had drank so much that I could be in physical danger. He took me to the emergency room of a large local hospital. When he told them his fears, the doctors and nurses told him he was nuts that I was sober. He finally talked them into doing a blood alcohol level. When it came back at .32 (amazing I know!) the doctor ordered it redrawn because he still would not believe I was drunk. If I could fool a group of professionals, it is not impossible that TH was able to fool and delude a lot of people. But this is just my experience and MOO.

[Tolerance]

Alcoholism is a family disease for a very good reason.  The roles and denial of all people involved.

Alcoholism is a very complicated disease.

Thank you Desdemona for all that info on female alkies.

I do not feel Kaine's statements are contradictory at all.  I  have listened to and watched people that are alcoholics.

It is amazing the stories that they come up with to deny their illness . Their families believe them. 

Until even the families see that there is a problem.  Sometimes the families never see it.  Quite often the alkie doesn't see the problem.

Very very interesting cunning disease.

I think the AA book says something about being powerless over alcohol, and I think the corresponding Al Anon literature says the same thing.

You are correct - the AA Big Book says that we are powerless over alcohol - but it mentions it only once. The reason I, from personal experience, believe that TH is likely an alcoholic is her behavior. I have never seen her drunk, since I do not know her. But I do know her actions. She is very self centered. She does not seem to take responsibility for her actions. The AA Big Book says "Our actor is self-centered-ego-centric, as people like to call it nowadays." and "Selfishness-self-centeredness! That, we think, is the root of our troubles. Driven by a hundred forms of fear, self-delusion, self-seeking, and self-pity, we step on the toes of our fellows and they retaliate."  My personal opinion is that this fits the public image of TH,

IMO this supports KH claim that TH is an alcoholic (which is very different from a "drinking problem").  No one in my position makes a diagnosis as that is something the person must come to themselves but I do have the ability to spot the traits.

As for KH not doing anything about the drinking - I am not surprised. KH was likely overwhelmed by the problem. It is extreamly common for spouses/family of the alcoholic to just try to not make waves. They hope against hope the promises of the alcoholic that they will stop or change the behavior. Heck, the alcoholic believes that they will be able to change or control the behavior. Until the delusion that they can control or enjoy their drinking, the alcoholic will not make any real efforts at changing.

The long and short of it is that KH may have known he needed to do something different since it was not safe to have TH around the kids BUT he may have still had the flickering hope that TH would change. Most non-alcoholics that have not dealt with an recovered alcoholic have no clue what true powerlessness is. Heck, even my hubby does not get how I could walk into somewhere to get a Diet Coke and end up drunk. No matter how many times I tried, I always ended up drunk. I really did not want to.

I will tell a short story to show how good we are at fooling people - near the end of my drinking, my husband was worried that I had drank so much that I could be in physical danger. He took me to the emergency room of a large local hospital. When he told them his fears, the doctors and nurses told him he was nuts that I was sober. He finally talked them into doing a blood alcohol level. When it came back at .32 (amazing I know!) the doctor ordered it redrawn because he still would not believe I was drunk. If I could fool a group of professionals, it is not impossible that TH was able to fool and delude a lot of people. But this is just my experience and MOO.

From the Big Book:  Alcohol:  CUNNING, BAFFLING, AND POWERFUL

[theboyzmom]

Alcoholism is a family disease for a very good reason.  The roles and denial of all people involved.

Alcoholism is a very complicated disease.

Thank you Desdemona for all that info on female alkies.

I do not feel Kaine's statements are contradictory at all.  I  have listened to and watched people that are alcoholics.

It is amazing the stories that they come up with to deny their illness . Their families believe them. 

Until even the families see that there is a problem.  Sometimes the families never see it.  Quite often the alkie doesn't see the problem.

Very very interesting cunning disease.

I think the AA book says something about being powerless over alcohol, and I think the corresponding Al Anon literature says the same thing.

You are correct - the AA Big Book says that we are powerless over alcohol - but it mentions it only once. The reason I, from personal experience, believe that TH is likely an alcoholic is her behavior. I have never seen her drunk, since I do not know her. But I do know her actions. She is very self centered. She does not seem to take responsibility for her actions. The AA Big Book says "Our actor is self-centered-ego-centric, as people like to call it nowadays." and "Selfishness-self-centeredness! That, we think, is the root of our troubles. Driven by a hundred forms of fear, self-delusion, self-seeking, and self-pity, we step on the toes of our fellows and they retaliate."  My personal opinion is that this fits the public image of TH,

IMO this supports KH claim that TH is an alcoholic (which is very different from a "drinking problem").  No one in my position makes a diagnosis as that is something the person must come to themselves but I do have the ability to spot the traits.

As for KH not doing anything about the drinking - I am not surprised. KH was likely overwhelmed by the problem. It is extreamly common for spouses/family of the alcoholic to just try to not make waves. They hope against hope the promises of the alcoholic that they will stop or change the behavior. Heck, the alcoholic believes that they will be able to change or control the behavior. Until the delusion that they can control or enjoy their drinking, the alcoholic will not make any real efforts at changing.

The long and short of it is that KH may have known he needed to do something different since it was not safe to have TH around the kids BUT he may have still had the flickering hope that TH would change. Most non-alcoholics that have not dealt with an recovered alcoholic have no clue what true powerlessness is. Heck, even my hubby does not get how I could walk into somewhere to get a Diet Coke and end up drunk. No matter how many times I tried, I always ended up drunk. I really did not want to.

I will tell a short story to show how good we are at fooling people - near the end of my drinking, my husband was worried that I had drank so much that I could be in physical danger. He took me to the emergency room of a large local hospital. When he told them his fears, the doctors and nurses told him he was nuts that I was sober. He finally talked them into doing a blood alcohol level. When it came back at .32 (amazing I know!) the doctor ordered it redrawn because he still would not believe I was drunk. If I could fool a group of professionals, it is not impossible that TH was able to fool and delude a lot of people. But this is just my experience and MOO.

From the Big Book:  Alcohol:  CUNNING, BAFFLING, AND POWERFUL

Amen Tol - without help it is too much for us - but there is one who has all power - that one is God - may you find him now.

[no rose colored glasses]

Note to self:  Tracy and No Rose are much more astute and observant than many thousands of deluded spouses of closet alcoholics all across this country!

I have been married more years than I wish to say. My husband would never be creative enough to hide booze in different containers from me. He is not suppose to eat junk food, and after I go to bed that is all he does, and he throws the wrappers in the trash under the sink, he doesn't even bother to hide it from me. So I would know if he was drinking. Now what others know or don't know about their spouse I can't say.

[no rose colored glasses]

thebozymom      All I'm going to say that if my spouse or boyfriend got a DUI there would be no way my kids or I would be driving with him. It is irresponsible and ignorant. Now what others do in their home and their decisions is their business, but that would be my business and my decisions.