Scared Monkeys Discussion Forum

Thanks SS.

(http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3363.0;attach=2060;image)

Nice switch NUT  ::MonkeyCool::

I have posted in the Shango thread about the tapes where the 5th was supposedly seen with Natalee earlier in the week.  I have come to a conclusion that the tapes which show the 5th, are not the ones that we have seen with Paulass in the casino.  I believe that Elizabeth Cain did see Natalee with the 5th at the Holiday Inn bar.  Therefore, there are security tapes that we haven't seen.  We know that Holiday Inn security tapes exist because Beth went through the tapes when she first arrived at the Holiday Inn.  She was simultaneously on the phone with Natalee's Twitty cousins while they were describing Urine.  It was from looking through the Holiday Inn security tapes that Beth was able to identify Urine as the person who left C&Cs with Natalee, based on MB statements.  ALE must have the rest of the tapes which show what Elizabeth Cain saw on Sautrday.  These are most likely the tapes that the codetalkers refer to.

_______________________________________________________________________

I have also felt that there has to be more to Elizabeth's statement than the FBI released.  If Elizabeth stated that she had seen Natalee with a local man, the FBI would have asked for a description or a composite drawing.  Where is it?  They were taking the statement in Birmingham, so they would have had the ability to make a composite drawing.  Where are the HI tape and where is the description of the local man?  The FBI knows who he is!

 ::MonkeyDance::  TYTYYYYYY lolllll

Thanks SS...I was locked out for a bit there.  The weather is not cooperating here today for some reason. LOL

OK...now to this 5th person...the codetalkers only had what was there at the time...so they would not know about those tapes...it was only Simian that had access to someone in ALE that told him that.  Depending on who that person was is how the information was relayed or it could all be a red herring...we probably will never know.

Just an after thought...Cain only saw Natalee talking to an older man...does not say eating dinner with or in the casino with....just talking to at the bar area...so it could be absolutely nothing.  In fact, the FBI may have asked was it this person or that person and came to the conclusion it was not anyone of interest.  I have to admit the information from the FBI affidavits are sketchy at best.

Shango Says: June 26th, 2005 at 8:27 pm
DirtyHand and the fallen judge may not be crucified. The gods are talking.

Shango seems to be saying that Dirty Hand (DTKM?) and the fallen judge (Paulass) are not the same person.

Simian Says: June 22nd, 2005 at 5:29 pm
I did not say an ex. Do you people read? I not into repeating myself.

[feels need to repeat himself]
Girl comes to Aruba. Meets cool and crazy guy in C@$ino. Goes out with him. He declares that to be the case. Can’t deny it. It’s on tape.  Everybody in the C@$ino knows the group of teens, they have been drinking in there for free the whole week. After a couple of days girl meets another boy in the same C@$ino.  Goes out with him.
Simian: This makes first guy really mad. So mad he confronts second boy.
First guy never denies the affair. He knows they know he was with her. However, he has an airtight alibi. Some friends say they were at home with him. Until the morning.  How can this ever be solved?


"Cool and crazy guy" could not be a description of Paulass.   ::MonkeyHaHa::  It's on tape  indicates to me that somewhere the 5th is on a tape with Natalee.  This is why I think that there are Holiday Inn tapes we haven't seen.  "After a couple of days girl meets another boy in the same casino"  indicates to me that this is probably when she met up with Urine.

"He has an airtight alibi.  Some friends say they were at home with him.  Until the morning".  Nobody that I know of said that they were at home with Paulass all night.  Max Arendsz and a few others, however, did provide an alibi for Lorenzo and said that they were at his house.  Lorenzo's girlfriend also provided an alibi that she was with him all night.

Klaas - are we out of order for bringing Shango stuff over here to the NH thread?  It seems to be connected to the discussion that is going on right now since the Diario articles, but if you want us to stop, please say so.

Oh my!  There's that name again...Lorenzo.   :roll:

Shhhhh!  Don't tell them...they will never know.

 ::MonkeyWink::

nobody has seen natalee since she left C&C's with j2k.  j2k has done nothing but lie about what happened after they left C&C's.
dennisintn

Has there been ANY reactions from Mos/ALE about the latest Diario articles?

Hi Wreck O/T - it was R-12!!!!   Tried to reach you in Caylee discussion but you are elusive.

I saw it, but it was way back. I would not think R-12 was involved. It has been illegal to sell in stores for many, many years -- therefore, very expensive. There are much cheaper "highs" out there.

Yep!

I hear they're frantic trying to sweep everything under the rugs.  I wonder if they have the shredders working overtime.

Hi Peaches! :smt039

There is nothing left to shred..it was all removed before KJ left her post.  Mos has nothing to work with...contrary to what Richardson showed on the A&E show...that stuff is just fluff and no substance.  No way they would keep anything incriminating at this point.  It's like starting over after the hard drive is fried.  So much has been lost that it's almost impossible to make a case any longer.

I wonder if there are copies of any reports that were done on evidence at The Hague.  The Dutch must have some of the information.  The question is... will they release it or will they protect Aruba?????

(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/johan555/HEIDI.jpg?t=1221899850)

read more: http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.telegraaf.nl%2Fvrouw%2F1946552%2F__Heidi_van_der_Eem_vertelt...__.html%3Fp%3D4%2C1&hl=nl&ie=UTF-8&sl=nl&tl=en

AMSTERDAM -- Heidi Geerlings (30) is the girlfriend of Patrick van der river Eem (35). After he decided to concentrate on undercover Joran van der Sloot, to pay the entire world press on Patrick's past criminal dove, they tried the rest in her family to bring back.

 

"Patrick and I have each other ten years ago met in a disco in Arnhem where I worked as a dancer. Patrick did not work, but was in drug trafficking. I now fall at once naughty, bad men can not explain why. Before Patrick, I have also had a couple bad boyfriends and I also really love once tried to be a dead normal, very sweet boy who was in love with me, but I just do not succeed. He came to our home to eat, had six times to the toilet of the nerves, very cute, but I found him just not fun. I think the contrast in Patrick attracts me very much. That wrong in what he sat and occasionally still is the top drive again, and the homely, dear, the father to the other side. He was not like other friends who called or I to the latest cinema, no, just called Patrick and said: "We are going out, I get about an hour to retrieve." I like that. And does he now still. He likes to surprise me, let me often feel that he is overjoyed with me and we do many fun things together or with the children, Michelle and Jaden eight of two. Patrick is a good man. You also have bad men from a mistake and a family environment are wrong. Patrick is just a very good, warm nest. His character is good, but he is a naughty boy and very sensitive to stimuli. In several interviews he has unfortunately been rather leaky about his sex life of the past. For example, he once told him that night at McDonald's with three snollen lie on the counter has sliding. But I was one of those girls. The first half year courtship that we had, we have only and there was always a lot of drugs to pass. Then we went early morning to go home and went there often are two beautiful girls with blood. No, I was not that bad, because Patrick was my friend and I was so seriously at that time now is not with him. But when I was pregnant, we went to Aruba. When was that wild period immediately and he also no longer gedeald. That was a condition, otherwise I was with him gone.

Joran period

I have always known that we were not the typical torque. I work one day per week Prenatal with fourteen other women, but I would not want to exchange them. I hear my colleagues say that her husband at half past one night came home and that he now no longer provisional road may ... Well, Patrick is sometimes half past seven morning at home. I know girls with a Antillian and then go find and where to call their friend. Then I think: 'Hold on, tire your life there is not. You're a nice woman, have two children if he wants to go with someone else then surely that is their loss? "I do not let my life guided by the constant question of whether I'm nice enough. We were recently in Milan with the children on the street, there was a girl for us, beautiful, beautiful figure and Patrick said, "Oh girl yet, what are you doing with me." I feel no way offended, namely find myself pretty fun . Even later why we are on the road to the hotel by a Zone, jumped a prostitute for our car. That shocked me when she and the children also saw sitting there. Since Patrick and I really had to laugh. He said: 'Hey what faint, as best you can with the children to move back. What does that now. "We have a lot of fun together. The humor has also throughout the period around Joran towed. We lived just two weeks in a recreation in Arnhem when he learned Joran in the casino. In order three thirty at night, he was shaking me awake. "I've seen Joran, he did it and he will tell me." I do not believe in coincidence, it has to be fit. Joran Patrick is not going to find, but when he thought he saw him: "That is Me. "Joran The story will the rest of our lives but we continue. It is a kind of story loverboy. That kid looks so strong against Patrick. If he would call him now and say: 'That I have done good, huh? I got quite some money on reared and I have also what you get here? "Joran would go where he left off. Absolutely. Joran has during the broadcast with Patrick sit still and SMS. When he still could not believe that Patrick had geluisd him. He said simply: "What are you good, say!"

Really quiet tonight. Logging off early. Be back in the morning.

Thanks for bringing that over Johan!  Interesting article. 

I don't remember seeing this article posted back in May, if it was I apologize.  I'd really like to know what it says if anyone stops in that can translate it.  TIA

May 9, 2008
Solo Di Pueblo

(http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn82/texasmom_55/05092008SoloDiPuebloNatalee-1.jpg)

Lorenzo girl frined is lieing.

Girl comes to Aruba. Meets cool and crazy guy in C@$ino. Goes out with him. He declares (where and to Who?) that to be the case. Can’t deny it. It’s on tape.  Everybody in the C@$ino knows the group of teens, they have been drinking in there for free the whole week. After a couple of days girl meets another boy in the same C@$ino.  Goes out with him.
Simian: This makes first guy(lorenzo) really mad. So mad he confronts second boy (Joran).
First guy (lorenzo) never denies the affair. He knows they know he was with her. However, he has an airtight alibi. Some friends say they were at home with him (First guy=Lorenzo). Until the morning.  How can this ever be solved?

it is all in the wording.?

Hello everybody!  I haven't been around in a long time.  I just wanted to post an observation about the new witness from Aruba.  I believe what he is saying is true, not just because of the the polygraph tests.  I don't know if anybody else made the connection, but the man says Joran was wearing a red shirt, he could see it under the street light.  If you look back at the video of Nat and Joran in the casino, it's pretty clear that Joran is wearing a white shirt.  Joran had to have gone home and that's probably where he took Natalee.  Once something happened to her, he might have been looking for a place to ditch the body.  That might have been what they were doing out at 4 in the morning.  Just my opinion of course, but it makes my head spin that's for sure.

While it's somewhat quiet on this board, here's some other Joran in blue plaid shirt pics. It took me all this time to find them and post them ... so sorry for being a few pages behind.  See the red color on Joran's shirt.

(http://i474.photobucket.com/albums/rr101/PoochyPics/joran_comparison.jpg)

(http://i474.photobucket.com/albums/rr101/PoochyPics/graypants.jpg)

(http://i474.photobucket.com/albums/rr101/PoochyPics/boywithbeltaroundneck0ya.jpg)


The (answer lies on the whispering wind) "STAIRWAY" into the cave (cRAVE) perhaps?:
(http://i474.photobucket.com/albums/rr101/PoochyPics/ladderintoholepic.jpg)

looiking the statements, there is still a posibility and that is in the wording " Some Friends"

"Some Friend" good be the first guy since it is him that say he was with Lorenzo the whole night.

That leave this question open "who said that thy were with lorenzo"

Find him and you got the "Guy"

The "Boy" we know already

my bet "Max Arendz"

Caps,have you seen Max Arends myspace?I;m sure you have,lol... www.myspace.com/chebeleb
The usual similiar signs and looks of a bunch of womanizing creeps...If the link doesnt work, use Max Arends in the find people,and it will pop. 

They can but too late.....

the cd's

I here they are lloking for an New IT Man? wonder what happend

Sep 20, 2008


RE: MY open letter to mrs. Beth Twitty

Hallo bigjuicykunfu


In the Kingdom of the Netherlands the justice system is corrupt, because the head of state queen Beatrix and the prime minister Balkenende support corruption and crimes against humanity!

I well come you to my open letter to mrs. Beth Twitty

tell a friend to visite my "Open letter to mrs. Beth Twitty " on moth oktober 2008 eight i willbe at tv spain about corruption in the kingdom of netherlands and about natalee holloway


Regards carlos severino tromp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDX0GSWDqwo

 

from the night in question:
(http://i474.photobucket.com/albums/rr101/PoochyPics/joran_at_cnc.jpg)

And another blue plaid shirt:

(http://i474.photobucket.com/albums/rr101/PoochyPics/joran_freddy_jaime2.jpg)


(http://i474.photobucket.com/albums/rr101/PoochyPics/freddycopy.jpg)


(http://i474.photobucket.com/albums/rr101/PoochyPics/KermitsSloot4.jpg)

And he has a t-shirt under it!!

Thanks Carpe!  ::MonkeyCool::

Freddy or Lorenzo?...Locoman, Alibi so Tight.

Max Arendz/Arends...

Scuba defends both Freddy and Max Arends, rumored to be related to Jossy.

Caps says Arends in Shango, Arendz here ::MonkeyConfused::


Carpe...I couldn't get that Youtube to open.

Hey TM and Hotshot! I just wanted to say Good Night!  ::MonkeyWink::

Seems even Carlos is confused!

http://arubagirl.typepad.com/lost_in_smallness/2005/10/there_was_an_el.html

Re: Natalee Case Discussion #756 6/5 -
« Reply #309 on: June 06, 2008, 06:53:09 PM »
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from: johan555 on June 06, 2008, 06:50:27 PM
Like what you did to Eduardo Matthew?
Refunjol must fall. Then all fall. He is DirtyHand.
Dirty Hand is possibly even Shango
who is Refunjol ?
Fredis......the governor

Posted by: CARLOS SEVERINO TROMP | June 12, 2008 at 04:16 PM

Hello all -- and goodnight!!  ::MonkeyConfused:: ::MonkeyHaHa::

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0506/03/lt.02.html

CNN LIVE TODAY

Missing Teen; Human Trafficking

Aired June 3, 2005 - 11:32   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Updating you now on a story out of Aruba, police there say the disappearance of an Alabama teenager is looking more like a crime. The FBI has joined the search for 18-year- old Natalee Holloway of Mountain Brook. She disappeared on the last night of an island trip to celebrate her high school graduation. Friends say Holloway was last seen Monday just before dawn getting into a vehicle outside the nightclub.
And we have with us right now on the phone Jan Straten, the police commissioner of Aruba.

Mr. Commissioner, thank you.

JAN STRATEN, ARUBA POLICE COMMISSIONER: Good morning.

KAGAN: What can you tell us about the latest on the search for this American teenager, Natalee Holloway?

STRATEN: Yes, you know, the last day we searched on all places on Aruba. Yesterday, we had a big search with the Dutch marine, and with helicopters, the coast guards. Still we haven't found the girl.

We are busy with the investigation team, and you will understand that I can't tell you a lot of the results of the investigation. That's the update still now.

KAGAN: The last we heard or the last big clue is that she was seen leaving this nightclub getting in a car with three men. You've been able to talk to those -- the people who you believe were those three men?

STRATEN: Yes. We find them and we talked with them, the witnesses, three young boys, they went to school too. And we talked with them and we -- obviously with the investigation around them too.

KAGAN: And they say, as I understand -- and tell me if I have this correctly -- they say that they were with Natalee, but they dropped her back off at her hotel.

STRATEN: Yes, that's true. They dropped the girl by the hotel about two o'clock in the morning on Monday morning.

KAGAN: I know her parents have arrived there in Aruba and they're trying to help and encourage the search.

How hopeful are you to them? How encouraging are you to them that they're going to find their daughter alive at this point?

STRATEN: You know, in the first days you are very hopeful, but the longer it takes, the longer you are afraid for a crime. I hope that you understand that. And that's the reason why the investigating team started thinking at the beginning of not only to find her, but thinking maybe she is a victim of a crime.

So the longer it takes we have her, we found her, the longer -- more we are thinking in the direction of a crime.

KAGAN: And is it more than just time that's making you go toward thinking that it's a crime, or are there other clues and information that you're not able to share with us at this point?  

STRATEN: Yes, that's the point. I would like to say it, but I'm not able to say it at this moment.

KAGAN: I understand. The last thing we want to do is compromise the investigation and the search for Natalee Holloway.

Mr. Commissioner, thank you for your time, and we wish you well in your search.

STRATEN: OK. Thank you very much.

KAGAN: That's Jan Straten, he's the police commissioner for Aruba searching for 18-year-old Natalee Holloway on a high school graduation trip out of Alabama. She disappeared and has not been seen since Monday. We'll continue to bring you the latest on that story as well.

snip


HE KNEW! ::MonkeyNoNo::

And he also KNEW WHO the guilty were...and it wasn't the security guards they arrested two days later.

Hey Hotping!  Good night!   ::MonkeyCool::

 ::MonkeyHaHa:: Hello and Good night to you too, Wreck!

Maybe it was Bondia, not Scuba for Max... ::MonkeyConfused::

Good Morning and Good Night Wreck...LOL

Good Heavens - Patrick's woman is really pretty! There is no rhyme nor reason for how we humans match up!   ::MonkeyConfused::

G'day Tib...How is Spring Downunder?

Still reading here daily and hoping the latest developments will bring answers.

With the early arrest of the security guards you have to remember that racism is alive and well with many nationalities and in most countries - the Dutch and Aruba being on that list.

Also if anyone else other than Joran was involved in actually harming Natalee, Paulus would have hung them out to dry in first week.

Patrick's girlfriend is pretty but her story illustrates the permissive lifestyle that is acceptable in Europe and carried to even greater lengths on Aruba, hence their culture of exploiting women.

G'day Mum - this far south it is more like winter at present despite the bulbs and blossom trees in full colour.
Glad to see you are back on the air.

From what we have learned there are two people named Max Arends(sz).

The first Max Arends is a friend of Urine and the Pimps.  He is the one I refer to as "eyebrows".  Following Natalee's disappearance he went to Valencia County College in Florida.  He has since returned and is currently living in Aruba.

The second Max (Maxito) Arendsz is the owner of the Aruba Speedshop.  At one point, he was posting and reported that he did not know Lorenzo, although he later provided the photograph of Lorenzo in his van.  It was later learned that this Max was interviewed by ALE and provided an alibi for Lorenzo, saying he was with himthe night Natalee disappeared.  He is reportedly a friend of Lorenzo.

Caps - is the 5th suspect Max Arends, Max Arendsz, or Lorenzo?

This is a recent photograph of Max Arends (Eyebrows) with his grandfather.  This Max Arends was one of the Pimps.

Good Morning...my responses in blue

Somewhere on one of these threads there is a photograph of Max (Maxito) Arendsz who is the friend of Lorenzo, but I can't find it.  Does anyone know where it is?

Good Morning Mum -

I agree, Freddy is still right up there as a possibility for the 5th.
Was it ever determined that "Peeps" and Maxito Arendsz were the same person?

Caps - we really need to know who the 5th suspect is.   

Can someone tell me briefly who Carlos is? And he's going to be on tv in Spain on the 8th? The same date that CLW has mentioned? Is this something I should get mildly excited about or nothing? Confused!

Max Arendsz:
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=69879120


Peeps = Andry Lopez
http://www.myspace.com/a_n_d_r_y



(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a398/vms58/Peeps.jpg)
Caption: Godo, Shaniro, Me, Max on Happy Hour @ Choose-A-Name

Me in the caption is Andry.
I always wondered if Shaniro Kelly gave info to Peeps as it seems that they are good friends...

Brief is not possible.  I don't know anything about the date.  I, too, am interested.  Web site for Carlos....good luck...

http://www.koninginnlwatismensenrechten.com/

thanks Buckeye.....its all greek to me  ::MonkeyConfused::

I would love to know more about him, considered emailing him, but he has quoted this Forum twice now and seems confused to say the least!

Google ... carlos13tromp....tromp13carlos...Carlos Severino Tromp

I will try to find some of Caps posts on his thoughts about the 5th suspect...keep in mind they changed as often as mine did...he had just as much trouble pinning it down as all of us.  I think maybe we should just ask Armin...I think I know what he would say...maybe. LOL

FYI I found on Max Arends/z while searching for something else:

Buckeye
Scared Monkey

   
Re: SHANGO/SIMIAN - who are they and what did they know? #2
« Reply #706 on: April 01, 2008, 07:59:06 PM »
   
Max Arends (the eyebrow one) went to school with Joran.  His sister posted under the nic Adella, at websleuths, early on.  I can't find her original post, but this summary is accurate with my recollection:

07-13-2005, 08:32 PM
LadyLuck LadyLuck is offline
Registered User
       
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Alabama
Posts: 1,444
Quote:
Originally Posted by LovelyPigeon
Wasn't there an Arens and an Arends? I can't remember exactly, but I think Adella's brother was concerned that his name was very similar to someone else's.

I found the old thread but could not get it to work to show everyone. Adella said the one arrested was Macito Arendez and NOT her brother Max Arrend. She said that the media was wanting him to do interviews since he knew Joran and that is how his name got out there.

I really miss her posting.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26041&page=10

Sorry, forgot to post the link where this is found...it's in Shango,of course.  ::MonkeyWink::

Buckeye
Scared Monkey

Re: SHANGO/SIMIAN - who are they and what did they know? #2
« Reply #709 on: April 01, 2008, 09:01:13 PM »
   
Found an ******* quote about Max.  (Original) Link doesn't work.

June 19, 2005

AG: here's a post from "Adella" from Aruba on websleuths yesterday i believe. It adresses the two max situation.

Hold your horses!!!!

I've been trying to keep up with the posts because I left of yesterday before part 6 was even closed....but when I got to post 101 I was shocked! And I started to quickly glance over everything to post an update already!!!

I have to say, YOU GUYS ARE FAST@! This Max Arends is my brother! He's at home, chillin' all freaked out because you already know him! He is actually Joran's class-mate and exactly the person I was mentioning in part 6 that CNBC is desperately trying to contact for a 'simple' interview. He didn't want to participate since they want to question him by himself and they want a possitive side of Joran, I think as well as he think that they will EAT HIM ALIVE if he does that!

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2733.700

More about an Arends: Courtesy of Shango #1.

MumInOhio
Scared Monkey


Re: SHANGO/SIMIAN - who are they and what did they know? #2
« Reply #733 on: April 02, 2008, 04:56:35 AM »
   
Quote from: Buckeye on April 01, 2008, 09:01:13 PM
Found an ******* quote about Max.  (Original) Link doesn't work.

June 19, 2005

AG: here's a post from "Adella" from Aruba on websleuths yesterday i believe. It adresses the two max situation.

Hold your horses!!!!

I've been trying to keep up with the posts because I left of yesterday before part 6 was even closed....but when I got to post 101 I was shocked! And I started to quickly glance over everything to post an update already!!!

I have to say, YOU GUYS ARE FAST@! This Max Arends is my brother! He's at home, chillin' all freaked out because you already know him! He is actually Joran's class-mate and exactly the person I was mentioning in part 6 that CNBC is desperately trying to contact for a 'simple' interview. He didn't want to participate since they want to question him by himself and they want a possitive side of Joran, I think as well as he think that they will EAT HIM ALIVE if he does that!

Anyhow, he's not the Max Arends that being arrested, this is another Max Arends who I happen to know as well, his name is actually not Max Arends, but Maxito, and his last name is Arendsz. I'm not sure what's happening to him right now, but I already have someone trying to find that out.

Again, my borther is not arrested and has anything to do with this


http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2103.520


Thanks Buckeye…Here is what I found on Max Arends…and the link: This article also has the fact that a Dutch man was questioned the previous night.
++++
Meanwhile, police brought in yet another man for questioning Friday night, FOX News has learned. The man, Max Arends, who is also a friend of van der Sloot, is not a suspect in the case and has not been arrested.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,159970,00.html

The post about Freddy Arends, that I referred to from Scuba was from August, and the name quickly changed to Arambatzis.

I researched the Frederick Arends that you referenced after Kermit posted  Freddy Zedan’s address as 7A Catiri. This was said to be Freddy’s apartment.

There is also the question as to why Freddy was secretly released in September when the Kalpoes were paraded in front of the TV cameras. I guess some-one didn’t want us to see his face.

I have asked Caps many times about the 7A Catiri address and about Freddy...still waiting!



http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2733.720

Isn't Max Arends...the one that is Joran's age....the son of Dilma and brother to
the poster MF at RU? 

The other Maximito Arendz is the age of Lorenzo...close to 30 now.
He is into the Aruba Speedraceing.  He was the alibi.

I have heard mention of yet another Max Arends that was only about 12
at the time of Natalee's disappearance.

 ::MonkeyConfused::

Oh yeah...lots of the same names running around.  You should look for Freddys if you think Max is confusing...I think Mum practically lost her mind trying to sort them all out and who belongs to whom.  We were hopping in Shango for a while over these names. 

Yes Magnolia, this is the one.  Maxito Arendsz owns the Speedshop.  He started posting as "Peeps" and/or he is Peeps.  He initally defended Lorenzo and said that he only knew him because Lorenzo and his mother had come to the Speedshop a few times.  He told us that Lorenzo doesn't use the Internet and he never allows his picture to be taken.  He then sent the picture of Lorenzo in his van.  This was questioned because how did he get the picture with Lorenzo looking straight at the camera?  He also claimed that he (Maxito) was not part of the social scene on Aruba.   I think we later learned that this Maxito is the same age as Lorenzo and they are in fact friends.  So, he lied.  I think this is also the same Max Arendsz who provided an alibi for Lorenzo and told ALE that he was at a party at Lorenzo's house.  Max's alibi fits Shango/Simian.  But, Max Arendsz wouldn't have been the host of the party that he said he attended.  The alibi was for Lorenzo and it was Lorenzo's party.  Lorenzo was the host which ties back into the codetalkers and indicates that Lorenzo could be the 5th.  Supposedly, Lorenzo's girlfriend also gave Lorenzo an alibi and said the he was having a small party at home.

JORAN CAST HIMSELF AS A FELLOW "TOURIST".

SUNDAY MAY 29, 2005
While on the beach: Lee Ashford Broughton states that Natalee met Joran Van der Sloot on the beach during the time that Natalee was there in the day.

Holiday Inn Bar by Pool

(http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/3290/holidayinnbeachbarnj1.jpg)

Lee Ashford Broughton: Following the MB students exiting from the Excelsior casino, Joran VDS walked with Natalee and other students to the HI Bar by the pool.

"At about 9:45 PM, Natalee, LAB, Joran and others walked over to the BAR BY THE POOL.
After telling students that no one really goes out on Sundays, Joran left the students, after about 5 minutes.

KISSEL: I didn't know him, but I had seen -- he had been around the hotel and the casino with her and with her friends, her closer friends, just hanging out around the hotel for the last few days, two or three days.


THE "SPORTS BAR IS INSIDE THE MAIN HI LOBBY ENTRANCE AREA, JUST ADJACENT TO THE CASINO. THE POOL BAR, IS OUTSIDE, BY THE POOL AREA, AND CLOSER TO THE WATER AND THE BEACH AREAS.



The Sports Bar.

Joran at the Sports Bar: “I would be going to C and C’s that night”.
Joran watches baseball and meets two “friends”.

After MB students place Joran as leaving the Bar by the pool after staying for only five minutes, Joran places himself inside the Sportsbar of the hotel where he watches the baseball game, and meets two friends telling them he would be going to C and C’s: * 9: 55 PM

In the Sports bar I also saw to two acquaintances who were watching baseball. I greeted my two acquaintances and told them that I was doing fine too and that I would be going to "Carlos & Charlies" that night. My two acquaintances are named "Luis" and "Joshua". I regularly meet them at Carlos & Charlies. The last name of Luis is "BETANCOURT". I do not know the last name of Joshua. Luis BETANCOURT is a Venezuelan and according to me Joshua is Colombian but I don't know that for sure. (JVDS 6/9/05)

Joran walks up to a group of girls and tells them that concerning his going to C and C's: “I would do my best.”

Following Joran stating to his friends, that he would be going to C and C’s that night, Joran then walks up to some MB students who have not left for C and C's, and Joran tells them that he "would do his best": (JVDS 6/9/05)

Way, way back there was some talk about Natalee possibly being shot in the head or she was brutally hit in the head.  Does anyone remember anything about this?  I do know that Val told someone at school that there was a girl in the bathtub who had been hit in the head with a bat.  One of the codetalkers also mentioned that Natalee had been decapitated and that her head and body were in two places.  I think it was Simian???  He said that her head would wash up on shore.  Does anyone remeber anything about this?

Premeditation in the context of murder describes actions which were planned prior to their being executed.

Premeditation in the context of murder describes actions which were planned prior to their being executed.

(http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/4756/holidayinnareamaphk2.jpg)

Has anyone figured out what is going on with the 8th?  Caps told us to wait until the 8th and Carlos Severino Trump is doing a program on the 8th.  Is this guy planning to reveal more information????? ::MonkeyConfused::

That would be Carpe, I think.

(http://scaredmonkeys.com/fun-images/NH_CrabTrap_small1.jpg)
Picture from DATELINE crab trap posted on SM

(http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/5438/shoeinsidecagers6.jpg)
LOOKS LIKE A TENNIS SHOE


(http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/9152/datelineskullzk6.jpg)
TIM SAYS IT LOOKS LIKE A SKULL - WELL TIM I AGREE AND IT LOOKS LIKE A SKULL AND ONE TENNIS SHOE!

ribbit

Thanks Kermit.  Here's your treat.   ::MonkeyWink::

Monkey's pay attention! Focus! Do not get sidetracked.
 ::MonkeyCool::

 ::MonkeyDance:: ::MonkeyDance:: ::MonkeyDance:: ::MonkeyDance::

Woo Hoo a banquet on Sunday for moi!

Thank you SS

(http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/3140/shoeallcomparisonak2.jpg)

I meant to post crab trap, not crap trap.
 ::MonkeyWaa::

Thanks Kermit!  Doing my best to stay focused here!  ::MonkeyWink:: ::MonkeyCool::

Guess you wern't focused!!!! :smt060 :smt060 :smt060 :smt060 :smt060 :smt060 :smt060

Those verses from Simian were part of the FAKE SIMIAN posts.  They were not those uttered by the original Simian and did not have the same IP or email addy to match.  Although, I just read something one of our posters posted about decapitation in the Shango 1 thread. http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=1952.3260

ribbit

Sorry I seem to be after all your posts, but you bring up some interesting thoughts.  If you have ever read any of the Carlos Severino Tromp stuff on other blogs and forums...you will notice some of the writings attributed to Carlos sounds a lot like another poster we all know and love that posts here.    ::MonkeyCool::

Yes, Jossy said they found a shoe in the pond...and then some see a shoe in the trap...so where is the focus?  The pond or the trap or both?  A little help here please.

Remember Kyle said the evidence was taken by ALE...so where does that leave us again?  Same place as the shoe given to ALE and no one has heard from it sense.  Wonder when the witness will be taken by the ALE and never heard from again as in the other witnesses.  Hmmmmm...

OK on the 5th suspect....I have been reading and reading and the first person Caps thought to be the 5th was Steve Croes...we debated that for a few days in Shango 1 beginning around page 50 and going through the rest of the thread off and on...Jackb thought GVC was the 5th suspect and Colombo still thinks Paulus is the 5th suspect.  Mum did a lot of research on Freddy as being the 5th suspect.  Frankly, it is hard to just pull one thing out about it...I do have the Caps posts about Steve, but he later changed his mind to Lorenzo, GVC, Paulus and a few others I can't remember now...but I can find them if I have to...don't make me look...LOL 

Some say it was Jaime...or Guido...or Koen...I have never seen enough proof to say one way or the other.  One thing is for sure...it depends on how Simian counted arrests in the case.  Since all that discussion we must remember Simian has been identified and some of his writings were noted to be taken from the local news coming out of Aruba which was sometimes more detailed than what we heard or read.  So the 5th suspect is the person that was arrested AS A SUSPECT at the time Simian was checking the local news...anyone wish to guess as to who he meant?

Well, I hate talking to myself...so ta ta for now!!

What about the bloody shoe in the closet and the shoe left by the cell phone tower????

Well, crud, she hung up, now Im talking to myself....... ::MonkeyWaa::

Wierd, up there on the name line it says.........(+ one hidden)  I have never seen that before!!!!!!

Ta ta  … needed to wrench the computer away from DD…her’s is still in her car!

Carlos S. Tromp tends to take 3 or 4 posts and post them on many different sites. His website includes a video of Natalee that has been on there for over a year, even though he has not been posting on forums and blogs that long. His early posts were on AG’s site the the FP. He takes breaks between his postings, sometimes weeks.

I have found some that have mentioned Natalee, Joran, forked tongues, orange and dirty hands, Shango as well as his own ramblings. Doesn’t have many friends on his videos, which he had 14 at last count. One from Maracaibo, Venezuela. Does not like other posters to question his posts.

His posts in recent weeks have openly been anti MEP, not just those connected with his case. There is nothing on his website on official Human Rights violations, according to our caesu.

He also states he hasn’t seen his family because of the financial issues, but takes ads out in an Aruban newspaper.

There are more oddities in Mr. Tromp's posts, but can't go through all that I have right now. And don't want to quote without referencing.

I have heard a theory very similar to this....but didn't hear it from Simian...although the idea could have come from there....alot of folks dismissed this theory though...the area of water was told to me it was searched and nothing found....whether that's true or not is anyone's guess...

(http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/4508/datelinecrewandarubadivcm6.jpg)
ASK THEM!

(http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/9117/datelinediversfromarubasb2.jpg)

When did the pond search first start?
Now put your pieces together.
You're good at this lala.
re-think it.
 ::MonkeyCool::

(http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/9568/skull2rm7.jpg)

Kermie, I always thought the 5th suspect was GVC - he was supposed to be mentally unstable and his family owned several homes and he was a security guard and he made films.  Has that ever been disproven?

Good Afternoon Monkeys,  took a break from painting and trying to catch up.  Am really confused.  How many shoes did Joran lose?  Just the one, right!?!  Where was it found?  And the skull (I DO think there was a skull in that crab trap) who is that?  I thought we were looking for Natalee on land -- buried -- cemetery.  Help please.
 ::MonkeyShocked::

The trap contents weren't sampled until the 7th of January.  Neither Tim Miller, Tim Trahan, or Dateline were on board during this time.
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2705.720

 ::MonkeyCool::

No.

Hello Kermit.  Sooooooo, shoe found in pond, then put in trap.  Or shoe found in trap then put in pond.  Confusion is my middle name :smt100

Look at the photos not what you are being told would be my insight.
Of course, some will say you are taking the insight of a frog.
ribbit
 ::MonkeyCool::

THANK YOU SAN
for editing my miss spelled word.
you are the best!
 ::MonkeyDance::

Ok. So how did Kyle give the tennis shoe to FBI? 

 ::MonkeyEek::

The trap contents weren't sampled until the 7th of January.  Neither Tim Miller, Tim Trahan, or Dateline were on board during this time.
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2705.720

Ah Ha!

Why would Kyle have the tennis shoe. He's just a boat guy!

Now, go back and re-look at the photos and follow the trail!

Ok, if I look at the trap, I see a skull and a tennis shoe.  But people have also said, Natalee was in the cemetary, in the pond, in a goldmine shaft.  How many places could one body be?????

If I believe Natalee is in the trap, then I have to believe she was killed on the beach, my first conclusion, then hidden by the fishermen shacks, then the trap was stolen, then she was taken out in a boat and thrown in.

It's only approx 15 min boat ride to the cage in the ocean.
Fits the confession
Fist the time line

Dave Holloway: They represent heroes to me.
 
To be sure there was no relevant evidence, material from the trap was given to the FBI.
 
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/5/

Tim Miller, Tim Trahan and Dateline were not onboard!

Ain't that convenient monkeys!

 ::MonkeyCool::

......another possibility is that Natalee was hidden in the mangroves that night and then taken out to sea and dumped the next night? Could the stealing of the trap and knife have been the following night? Monday night?

excerpts from august 1-4 2005 theory/speculation thread:

Peeps: I am the owner of Boost Unit website and the webmaster of the speedshop. I don't know what your deal is with us or anything. We don't have nor want anything to do with some stupid teens, americans, dutch, surinam or any nationality whatsoever involved with this annoying case. We don't know that teen Joran nor his 3 chocolate factory buddies. They are not of our age bracket. We are some motorsports fans and that's all there is to it.

I request you to put your detective wannabee skills into something more productive. I am just helping you out here that you'll heading towards a dead end. Just trying to save you some time. Regards to everyone.

Peeps: I knew about this site from the newspapers, plus its name is pretty "catchy". I got my monthly referrals report today (Aug 1) and what do I see? More than 50 referrals from the famous NH connected "scared monkeys". The purpose of this particular speculation forum is all good. I just don't want our names stickied on the internet,especially something that we have no part in. This is not the first time that somebody wants to connect us with the fatass dutchy.

karen: hi, peeps! no disrespect intended! just posting the trail that led to maxito, as we've been told he is lorenzo's, aka locoman's, alibi. could you share a little re lorenzo, just so we have everyone straight? maybe you can help us, & we can help you? thx!

Peeps: Maxito is one of my best friends. We go everywhere together. This rumor also spread on the street. Frankly we were pretty scared about this false accusations. Long story short, the detectives already know about this and have straightened out this false rumor. He doesn't know this guy Lorenzo. Locoman came once with his mom to the shop to get some quotations for parts for his Quad racer. that's it. We don't know locoman nor his following. Also we don't want to know anything about him. We stick to our motto " minding our own business".

---> karen: thank you, peeps! just to be sure..we are talking about the maxito arendsz, who is in his 20's? i know there is also a max arends, could that be the one they meant? i REALLY appreciate you taking the time to answer.

Peeps: He's 26. The same as me. He's the same person. Maxito = Little Max in papiamento. A childhood name that got stuck till now. I just notified one of the detectives again about this piece, just in case some false accusations come up. Just taking precautions. If there are more questions I can ask [answer] them as far as I can. You can put a separate thread or something or email.

karen: hey peeps! do you know if locoman is known to hang out at casinos? also, is it true his dad committed suicide a coupla yrs ago?

Peeps: His dad owned the Volkswagen dealership here. He killed himself a couple of years ago, that's correct. The dealership is still there, but I don't know if they still have it or whatnot. locoman has a lot of money, but rumors have it that he's misusing the money. I think he doesn't even has to work for the rest of his life. locoman has 2 houses, and i got to know that he use(d) to throw some heavy parties at his homes. That's how much I know. I have no clue if he frequents the casinos / hotels.

jozee: I thought Lorenzo and locoman were two different people. Lorenzo is someone who we don't have a pic of, although several people think it's the guy with the blonde dredlocks. Locoman is a dark island-looking person? Am I wrong? I'd like to know who is Alexxx the ax guy! And why does he carry around an ax?

Peeps: Ok. Locoman, no clue who he is. Lorenzo, saw him once. He's a tall Dutch looking fellow. You guys know more about him than me I see. You only need a pic of him.

I hear Shango: If Peeps is from aruba, and goes "everywhere" with Maxito...perhaps Peeps will tell us how the party was that night.

Peeps: We don't go to tourist places. As a matter of fact we haven't been to Carlos and Charlies this year even. We are over that type of party stage. You're beginning to sound like the dumb blonde Nancy Disgrace, simma downa.

I hear Shango: I didn't ask if you went to tourist place..I asked about the party...and before you call me dumb....you should think twice...I have just proven myself smarter than the entire LE....and many others in Aruba.

Peeps: Ok, Another smart comment in there but whatever floats your party boat is fine with me. Dunno what party, like all other questions you've asked me: Not Applicable. Another FYI, the Mansurs are one of the wealthiest families on the island, and also with many business related stories as you will find out sooner or later in your quest. Go fetch.

Peeps: Grasshopper sees the tip of the Iceberg and thinks deeply........" I think that's the whole Iceberg". Ok, enough busting I hear shango's balls. I really don't think the Mansur will connect you to NH case. They have extensive shady practices but I don't foresee any connection. Karen, you see what I mean. I am a native. I know as many other islanders about the M's. Alot of which are not on the web. Now I get an internet worm who just found last week what Aruba is, telling me he/she has everything. We are laughing so hard at this that we are having headaches.

karen: i hear ya, peeps, i get the headaches, too! won't you pleez tell us some lorenzo stories??

rockyroads: oh magic crystal ball - i see some arrests

I hear Shango: Peeps...I see the whole iceberg...better run....unless you are a VERY good swimmer...

Peeps: I hear Shango, My applogies to you for being rude. Sometimes it's needed to get the point across, and it's my favourite tool. No hard feelings.

3 weeks later/august 25:

---> Peeps: Alright guys, I just found out a little detail: There are 2 Max's on the island. But....the difference lies in the last name: Max Arends - @20 years old. And associated with Joran. Max Arendsz - 26 years old. Owner of the Speed Shop and has no clue who Joran and his posse is. Somehow, the names got mixed up and misleading info spread like wild fire. Anyhow, back on topic.

Peeps: From my uber reliable source, the local detectives searched his house twice already, but what to do if you can't find anything.

The police know about the parties, etc etc. And they also agree that LVR is a little kwak kwak in the head.
Anyhow, I got this pic from a source of mine, which I think will be the only pic you'll be able to find of him.
This is from his van, and guess who's driving.

So there, I helped you guys a little. I hope I don't get shafted like many helpful Arubians have been misused / abused in the past by los americanos.

http://img373.imageshack.us/img373/7466/piwannabee6fq.jpg

Don't ask me for more.
Don't ask me for higher resolution.
Don't ask me for bigger pictures.
I still stand by my opinion that you guys are losing your time with this fellow.
See you next time.
_ _ _ _ _

there were at least 2 people posting as Peeps ...
we never figured out who the other one was

the brown building visible behind LvR's van
is the Chalet Suisse restaurant
so we know where the photo op was staged

(http://www.restaurantsaruba.com/photos/chalet_suisse.JPG)
http://www.restaurantsaruba.com/view_review.html?rest_id=12
_ _ _ _ _

sandraK: Lorenzo's Dad had a VW   Dealership.. He is dead.sadly..He runs with. Max Arendsz &  Orlando Bello .From the Aruba Speed Stop...A Kinda Strange Dude.. but harmless...  SM's think he has something to do with this.. Cops Been all over him.. He's not involved...

MisGivings: Is this the 'rave' guy? And, wasn't some of Natalee's clothing found in his basement?

sandraK: No clothes were found...!! Nothing

jozee: SandraK, So Lorenzo runs with the guys from the Speed Shop?? I thought Peeps said he only met him once??

sandraK: and ???

jozee: ...and back at ya...if he met him once how does he run with them?

sandraK: I didn't know Peeps was Max Arendsz....I'm Sorry..  :oops:  :oops:

jozee: SandraK, I don't believe he is Max...if you are to believe what he says they are best friends...just do a search on Peeps posts and you can see for yourself. He came here after a bunch of Monkeys hit on the speed shop during research. I don't know if he posts anymore....

sandraK: WE  PM  :wink:

Howcome Kermie got a fly and I didn't?  

Fishermen witnessed the break-in that night wasn't it?

Most likely disposal was that night.
Evidence hidden next night.

::MonkeyHaHa:: ::MonkeyHaHa:: ::MonkeyHaHa:: ::MonkeyHaHa::

So is Dave, Beth, and Tim Miller aware of the outcome of the forensic testing of the crab trap contents now? 

 ::MonkeyCool::

Ok, if I take this to be the gospel, then are you thinking it was only Joran and the Suriname boys and not any of the elders?  Where does the party at the Matty Apartments fit in?  What about Paulas????

I have ALWAYS thought something was found in that trap. WHEN it was put there -- I don't know.

Is anybody else as confused as I am right now?   There seems to be two scenarios going on ........  (1)  the crab trap (2) on land in a cemetery which includes the partygoers, Matty apts., Paulus.

 :smt108 :2doh:

March 20, 2008, 01:18:50 PM
private eye posted at SM»
Kyle- I emailed Beth your concerns and have suggested to her that she contact the appropriate people on the Persistence, including yourself, and attempt to reconcile as best they can the material the crew saw recovered from the cage versus what they received. I specifically mentioned the blue denim and the fact that would be the material of which the skirt was made, and reminded her that the press release said that the material did not match her blouse. I also pointed out that in the December 30 photo there appeared to be a skull and in the January 7,



private eye
Scared Monkey
Offline
Posts: 1470
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #761 6/26 -
« Reply #235 on: Today at 09:13:20 AM »


Did the Monkeys ever get an answer to the analysis of the material found in the cage by the Persistence, but removed and secured by the Arubans? In Particular, the material that appeared to be blue denim?
scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2979.220

(http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/9117/datelinediversfromarubasb2.jpg)

KERMIT  so glad you are back.  What about it?  On land or at sea?  See my previous question regarding the evidence.

Kyle =  not just a boatman??

Not sure anything was actually witnessed regarding break-in, just that huts were found that way with things missing. Could be wrong just happen to think there is something to the mud and mangrove portion of jorans lies......

No flies for you Granny......here.....

(http://www.cigarbeat.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/smoken-toad-cigar-review-001.jpg)

Which area of water? 

What made the Persistence crew check the Monserrat dam area?  Was the search used to distract from the ocean?   ::MonkeyConfused::

Aside from flies which I kinda don't like because they put their lips and hands on dead stuff and poop but they're not too bad if you can scrub them real good and pull those parts off ...

I never thought Joran had Natalee on that beach in the first place. Or 2nd or 3rd either. 24/7 island and not one witness.

Hiya Kermie!  

I know this....LOL  The pond search started...when the persistence left.  Well, they searched the pond and left the same day or the day after....just packed up and left.  So are you saying they found their targets in the pond that day and there was no reason to continue searching?  I know the date and I also know what was seen in the pond...it was several targets of interest.  Also, the pond was drained during the time of the strike of the government employees...that is what took so long to get it done....it should have been done that same week as the persistence left but it was delayed....notice I said delayed...until everyone was busy with the strike and then suddenly it was found dry as a bone and a little spot was disturbed and a bucket was left there.  Now, we have Jossy saying a shoe was found there in the pond and it was given to ALE...so that means that ALE did not drain it but someone else did.  Just thinking out loud per your instructions...am I even close?

Just because Shango says it does not make it so. LOL

Heya bleached, that's a kinda cute toad ya got there on that leaf.  

This I can answer and you will have to trust that I am correct....the Monserat area was checked because someone emailed Dave Holloway that he needed to check out the area because a witness placed Joran in the area on the night in question.  Dave made arrangement with the Persistence crew to have it checked before they left the area. In fact, the request to search the area was in the works for several weeks prior to it actually being checked.  That is not my opinion...it's a fact.

To further confuse everyone...the ocean search was the original area of interest per some statements that were made to ALE and others...the pond search was from a tip....the crypt location came from Caps.  Make up your own mind as to what is real and what is not.  Some of the information to search in certain places was derived from the Shango/Simian writings...but that does not mean it was right...just that was part of the reason some people came to certain conclusions. MOO

Around the Container Harbor/dry dock area...

Do you think the original email was honest or a diversion tactic for the ocean search?

It's in one of the Shango threads...1 or 2.  Most likely in Shango 1...I saw it today while I was looking for something.

I probably should take the 5th on that question.  ::MonkeyCool::

Thanks.

You're welcome... :)

Hello Hidden 1, if I guess who you are, will you tell me if Im right??? ::MonkeyCool::

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/The%20Search/february1jn0.jpg)

This one is for you GrannyToad.  You've been a nice toad today and you look hungry.

What about me??  Ive been good? ::MonkeyCool::

You get a chuckierat!  ::MonkeyWink::

Gulp, thanks Wreck!!

I remember the pix....it is not on here though>
They Call me Max, I'm 21 now finally legal in the United States! I'm very dedicated to my degree which is an A.S. degree for Digital Media. When finished I will be transfering to UCF so I could finish my A.A. in Business Managment. I love Aruba! I had lived 20 years there, enjoying my life there to the fullest.
http://www.hi5.com/friend/660388--Max--Profile-html

I was gone for the afternoon, but I'm back.

OK Kermie, I'm staying focused.  I don't want to stack the quotes, but I've been reading your first photos of the Holiday Inn and Urine's statements.  He was telling his friends and the MB girls that he would try to go to C&Cs that night.  It was Sunday night, so he must have been at the Holiday Inn outdoor bar late Sunday afternoon or early evening.  This was not the same day that Elizabeth Cain saw Natalee talking to a local man at the bar.  That was Saturday.  This local man is the one who I suspect is our 5th - the one who actually killed Natalee (if we believe Shango, Simian, and the rest of them).

Kyle described the day when the Dutch ship took the contents of the cage.  TES had identified the cage back in December and had notified Dave.  They lost a few weeks recovering the contents because they were sidetracked by someone who said that Natalee's body had been given to some drug dealers to dispose of in South America.  Tim and Dave checked the guy out and planned to meet him on the designated beach, but the guy never showed up.  The Persistence wasn't searching the day that ALE and the Dutch took the trap contents, so Kyle was watching from the beach.  For two days in a row, the coast guard ship went to the area where the crab trap was located and they confiscated the contents.  The Americans were given a fabric for analysis at Quantico.  According to the FBI report that we saw, the fabric did not match the fabric from Natalee's blouse.  It didn't say anything about denim.  We never received any further information about anything from the crab trap.

According to Kyle, the pond was scanned based on a tip.  We have pictures.  The sonar equipment identified objects.  Kyle told us that he receommended that the pond be drained in order to further examine the objects.  In the beginning of March, Chavez started acting up which was followed by the big strike.  Supposedly they couldn't drain the pond because the fire trucks were needed for the strike.  We learned that 40-50 Dutch forensic specialists arrived on the island with dogs that were trained for cadavers, drugs, and money.  The pond was chained off and suddenly drained.  We received pictures of the drained pond and the area that was scraped away next to the bucket.  We heard nothing about the results of the search until a while ago when Jossy stated that a shoe had been found in the pond.  ALE denied that the pond had been searched.  Was it Urine's shoe or Natalee's sandal? 

If Natalee is in the Masonic Lodge cemetery and her skull was in the crab trap, then she would have to be in two places???  ::MonkeyConfused::

It has always been my opinion that was just another distraction.

Wouldn't this have been right around the time Jossy's current witness came forward?

Now he`s hiding . .
(http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj176/bastibro/vdSloot/images.jpg)
 Jail is his place!

Goodnight Monkey`s ::MonkeyWink::

If I recall, Jossy's witness came forward in December of 2007, which was a few months prior to the pond being searched.

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/The%20pimps/maxarends.jpg)

Well CNN thinks it's PVS
CNN.com - Judge arrested in Aruba case - Jun 23, 2005
Jun 23, 2005 ... Judge arrested in Aruba case. Fifth suspect in custody after U.S. ... Natalee Holloway's aunt, Marcia Twitty, said her family was "very ...

It has always been my opinion that Paulus was #5

Toady grabs a napkin and straw and diet Dr Pepper and ketchup, knife and fork and digs in! "Thanks, SS!"

Yes, CNN said he was the 5th person arrested...but Mum found information that leads one to believe there was already two people before him arrested...one being Steve Croes and an unidentified other person.  Which could also be the 5th.  Remember Armin...I mean Simian...was working from info that was known on Aruba and among the ALE and not what we were hearing.  It it confusing...also to believe Paulus was the the 5th that meant he was at his house with friends at a party of some type and was Natalee's boyfriend at some point within the first 3 days.  I have a problem with Natalee being remotely interested in Paulus for any reason...but that is just me.  I also think Simian's reference to "boyfriend" was to mean a male friend that was flirting with her...so that could have been Paulus...it is that "earlier in the week"  and "party at his house"  that gets me every time...I would love to know what the family thinks as to Paulus being the 5th...but they don't study Shango like we do.

Thanks for answering when you have time.

I am referring to the fifth as the one who did the damage to Natalee.

The only FBI report that I am aware of is a newspaper article from Quantico where they gave the results of the tests on the fabric.  The said that it didn't match the shirt fabric that she was wearing.  The article is way back in Shango somewhere.  It wasn't a big article - just a few paragraphs.  I don't think we ever saw a summary of anything about what was found in the trap.

Who would have drained the pond if ALE and the Dutch didn't do it?

Bananas.

LaLas    Do you have thought on this? 

 :smt115

Not sure if anyone has posted this already...

Apparently, Koen and Sander are both still in GA and attending Gainesville State.
http://ezleagues.ezfacility.com/team.aspx?team_id=341980

Here I go again.  Two posts in a row.  One thing that bothers me is when things are starting to move again with the case; 1) witness coming forward 2) shoe found in pond? 3) articles coming out in Diario;  then old theories come back into play.  The crab trap findings were so hopeful and then it just kind of went away.  We never heard anything else about it.  Then we a new poster that says that the scene of the crime is VDS home and that the witness is lying.  So many theories.  If this witness had not come forward, would anything be happening in this case or be made public?  You have to wonder. 

 ::MonkeyCool::

Lala's - This is from Red.  I haven't found the newspaper article, but I know it's back there somehwere.  I'll keep looking.

Reports are stating that the piece of clothing and DNA was not a match to missing Alabama teen in Aruba, Natalee Holloway. One might presume the first question is … then who’s is it? How many crab traps with clothing in them are in the waters of Aruba?

http://scaredmonkeys.com/2008/02/27/natalee-holloway-tim-miller-of-texas-equusearch-discusses-crab-trap-clothing-and-dna-found-in-waters-of-aruba/

How sad if that 'skull' was the only thing left of Natalee Holloway and it is gone forever, due to ALE taking the 'evidence' from the ocean floor.

I still wonder about the bones with tissue that were found the summer after she disappeared, and continue to wash up on the beaches.  Was the body separated and pieces have made their way back to the beach? 

The item that looks like a shoe, what did ALE say that was?  The items that look like a collapsed plastic bag/sheeting, what exactly was all that stuff in the trap? 

Where is that stuff?  Did ALE inventory that stuff and video/record its recovery and transfer?  Did it ever make it to the NFI?

Perhaps the Rosetta Stone and great manuscript are all the other folks that have disappeared from Aruba?  How many illegal aliens have gone missing during the past twenty years?  How many sex workers? 

If not Natalee, than who?

Thanks vms

 WhiskeyGirl,  on previous page Kermit says that Kyle gave the shoe that was found in crab trap to the FBI.  He says (implies) it is Joran's missing K-Swiss.

 ::MonkeyWink::

I still can't find the article itself.  Maybe Klaas knows where it is.


From oceanexploraton:

As of the 2nd week of Feb, this is what I had learned from the FBI:

The contents of the trap were being actively investigated.  The forensic results of a fabric sample showed the fabric sample was not a match to Natalee's blouse and that no DNA match to Natalee was found within that fabric sample.  Human remains were found, but the FBI was not and would not comment on the case.  The FBI did not comment on the remains, but rather the fabric sample.

Kyle also mentions a Dutch "recovery" boat in the area of the trap site.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2705.msg366626

Here are my thoughts and remember they are only worth about 2 cents...

First, I don't think Kyle ever accessed the items in the trap.  As far as I know he only saw his underwater images that were leaked after being sent to the FBI.  They were leaked to BFN if I ma not mistaken.  So Kyle could not have given a shoe to the FBI.  The only people known to touch the contents of that crab trap were with ALE.  If I am not mistaken again, Mos was onboard when the little ROV thingy went down and sent up the first pictures.  I seem to remember a photo of him being there somewhere around here.

Secondly, if it is true that Kyle actually physically gave a shoe to the FBI, then when did he get it?  I thought Kyle was on shore when they brought it up.  Also...how can there be two shoes now...one in the ocean and one in the pond?  Are they different feet?  That is possible.  Could it be that Joran first dumped her in the pond and then told daddy and Paulus said that won't work I know the person we need to get to fix this mess.  They then removed her and carried her out to sea?  What date was the crab trap reported missing?  Does anyone remember?

Truthfully, I go back to the simple explanation...Paulus did not have enough time to remove her every night...so what did he do that first night? 


So far we have...the landfill location...the first pond at Moko...the second pond at Monserat...the boat out a mile in the ocean in the crab trap...the burial on Sloot property...the caves...the crypts...that is a small island....someone knows where she is and that person is Paulus....maybe we should ask Lorenzo?  He probably knows all the details...but then no one believes me when I say that. LOL

A distraction by whom?

The photos were posted on BNH by Robin....who requested no one copy them....then they were posted everywhere....no surprize....

Thanks vms!   ::MonkeyCool::

Robin was very foolish to post them on the internet. 

Not the smartest move for sure....

If I remember correctly it ticked off Kyle also...

We saw divers going down to a trap.  Was it the trap where we can see the skull
and shoe? ....or another trap?

The Freemasonary rutual is all about a body( murder victim) being buried in a shallow grave
and then moved to a watery grave.  Maybe that is the case.

Yes it did.  Kyle or someone on Persistance may have been the ones who provided the photos to Robin.  In any case, it was foolish giving then to Robin and Robin was foolish posting them on the internet.

I believe it's the same trap....

Yup...

A distraction to lure searchers to another direction...like has been done in the past


by....well let's see now. The list could be endless

Over the years, I counted at least three missing shoes.  A pair, and one single shoe, the K-Swiss.

Also if the disposal/hiding/rehiding covered several days and events, isn't it possible that more than one pair of shoes disappeared?  Along with other clothing, such as the posse saw J2K dressed in that first night on Aruba?

I think they sent them to Dave, which is understandable.  Nobody ever considered
the possibility of Robin putting them on the internet.  Who would?

The Freemasonary rutual is all about a body( murder victim) being buried in a shallow grave
and then moved to a watery grave.  Maybe that is the case.


Magnolia - can you tell us more about this ritual.  I am really interested.

Sorry everyone - wrong color!   ::MonkeyHaHa::

The Freemasonary rutual is all about a body( murder victim) being buried in a shallow grave
and then moved to a watery grave.  Maybe that is the case.


Magnolia - can you tell us more about this ritual.  I am really interested.

Just for the record.  The pond was not going to be searched until the end regardless.  It was planned to be done before the Persistence left.  It had been in the works for some time...there was no way to distract from the search...the search itself was over for all intents and purposes.  You can think that, but I guarantee you there was no distraction on the pond search...it was only done as a last resort.  I am not trying to argue the point so I will leave it at that. 

OM  did not want to look into the pond...he had to be forced to even consider it and it was checked without his knowledge at the time.  He was angry that they even looked in there. Once it was done there was no hurry to look into further until pressure was applied to OM to do so.

Go to:    http://www.emfj.org/dbr.htm
and read about Hiram Abif

LOL...I thought you might have been posting a secret....

Like when we were kids and wrote something in milk and then held it over a candle.  We're lucky we didn't set the house on fire.

Ah ha...never tried that...be right back!!..just kidding...

I'm gonna stick with my theory. Remains were found in the crab trap.     
I do not know if they were from the first night or whether they were placed there at a later date. Remember folks --- Natalee may have been moved MANY times. The Matty apartment story, the "crypt" story, could ALL be true. Maybe they got nervous and moved her again several months "after the fact"!!

And don't forget, the bag in the cement basin.  That will stick in my mind always.  Not everyone can see her in the bag, but those who can are devistated.  I still feel the "video guy" knew to go there and get the video, not thinking we would capture that image.  The video was uploaded on the 10th-11th, but it doesn't mean they were done that day.  They were done prior to the upload, possibly the day everyone was looking.  That guy holds secrets, which ones....I don't know.  did he know what was in that bag?  If he did, why didn't he go to natalees family?  Where is he now, and why wont he fork over the missing video he has?  I still believe that was one of her "holding" places.  And if the real story does go with Joran leaving her in the mangroves, near the huts,...then that fits.  The huts are only feet away from that basin, just go to the road, and cross the street.  You can't even imagine how close it is to where he states it all happened.  It doesn't mean a party didn't happen, it doesn't mean she didn't wind up near Monstrat pond, that can still hold true. 

I saw this mentioned on another forum...had to translate it myself to be certain.  Is it the norm for a case such as this to be handled by the Department of Organized Crime?  Does that mean the same thing there as it does here?  If so, I think that's in line with many theories we've been discussing; but certainly hasn't been mentioned in any statements that I've heard ALE or the OM release regarding the case.  Brings a lot of things to mind.   

(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b258/texasmom55/NataleeCaseFile01.jpg)

(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b258/texasmom55/NataleeCaseFileTitleTranslation.jpg)

(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b258/texasmom55/NataleeCaseFileFBI09192008.jpg)

I think this one says "Housekeeping May 2005", surely doesn't mean what I'm thinking it could mean. 

Cleaning up all the evidence?   ::MonkeyWink::

Naaaaa....surely not, well then again; I'm not so sure.   ::MonkeyNoNo::
(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b258/texasmom55/NataleeCaseFile05Housekeeping2005.jpg)

I'm not forgetting it Hotshot, don't think I could if I wanted to.   ::MonkeyWaa:: ::MonkeyNoNo::

I hope Sleuth is here bringing another Diario story!  ::MonkeyCool::

Sorry about that Sleuth...I got so excited seeing you that I forgot to say HI!   :smt039

(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b258/texasmom55/CarpePicNatalee1.png)

We're still trying to get the answers, Natalee!  We won't give up!

Peter R. de Vries in New York for Emmy Awards

21 September, 2008, Sunday

Peter R. de Vries is Sunday in New York arrived Monday for the Emmy Awards to attend. The broadcast of the crime reporter on the case of Natalee Holloway has been nominated for an Emmy Award. The much-discussed broadcast was not only the Netherlands in its grip, but went all over the world. Especially in America, there was much interest, De Vries was a guest at several major U.S. talk shows and news programs.

"In making such a report you are absolutely not trying to win things as prices," said the freezer. "Of course I knew that the impact of the report would be great, but a nomination for an Emmy Award would provide is a very nice surprise and a token of recognition". De Vries told earlier.

Monday is known whether Peter R. de Vries the award will actually receive it can take.

(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/johan555/peterxxx-ny.jpg?t=1222074711)

Magnolia,

I read your link and it sounds to me as though Shango may be a Freemason himself, albeit reluctantly.

Shoe????...One in a closet, one in the Pond, one in the trap plus whatever Jossy showed in his paper a while back!

Size 10 or 14, or size 10 and 14?

Going along with what Magnolia posted, does anyone rember where the shallow grave was?

I thought I read that there was one at Conchi where the 7 year old boy drowned on June 6th. This wasn't familiar to me when I read it and should have checked it out then.

Any help would be appreciated. TIA

I may have already asked this and someone answered, but I will try again...do we have any idea when the crab trap was reported missing? 

Someone is fibbing here or Joran had two pair of shoes or Joran has more than two feet...

Wasn't it the next morning? 

Lala's going from memory, the night Natalee disappeared...along with a knife, I think.

That is what I can recall from Dr Hodge's Thoughprints, and don't have it bookmarked anymore.

So the trap was missing and reported by what time of day?  Those fishermen get there really early don't they?  I think we need to know for sure since that would go to a timeline.  I am thinking the trap had been there for a while behind the huts and they discovered it missing that next morning.  That was always curious to me..if it was a trap they didn't use any longer why even bother to report it gone and how do they know how long it had been missing?  All rhetorical questions now since we have no access to the report.  I would be interested in knowing more details for sure.

Also, has anyone ever wondered why the Gottenbos are all over here in the USA now?  Would you move your family to a place where your sons were rumored to have helped in a body disposal of an American lived?  If you read the statement by Sander you get several red flags and still they are living here?  They are either totally innocent and had nothing to do with this and have been falsely accused or associated or they are really in- your-face-brave.

Lala's...I looked at Dr Hodges's site, but it doesn't even look familiar to me now!

I recall the knife and the trap, but also recall Kyle mentioning a larger trap. Think he asked where would one be found in Aruba, and Rob replied to him???

Was there ever anything to the Gottenbos being related to the Sloot's? That may be enough reason to get them away from there, if they were innocent of cours...or maybe guilty as well!

Lala's Mom,

On one of the tv specials, (Carpe could probably identify) one of the fishermen said he noticed immediately the following morning the trap was gone because it sat in the grass in the back undisturbed for a long time, so when it was gone it was quite noticeable.  It was either him, or one of the other fishermen that decided to go down and check the other huts and noticed broken locks with nothing inside gone in some huts, and a knife gone in one of the others. 

Sorry if I am not helping, but I am trying.

Per Tim Miller...the same night and some big knives were stolen...

http://scaredmonkeys.com/2006/01/11/tim-miller-and-texas-equusearch-headed-back-to-aruba-in-search-of-natalee-holloway/

snipped

Miller told KPRC Local 2 that Aruba’s police commissioner told him that he feels Holloway might be inside a fish trap dropped deep into the water.

“The night she disappeared is the same night a fisherman’s hut got broken into and a huge fish trap got stolen. Some big knives got stolen, and none of it has been found since,” Miller said.

The cage the commissioner referred to is similar a crab trap people could buy at a hardware store.

Tim Miller states that if Natalee is in such a fish trap that he is optimistic in finding her. Miller is bringing the proper equipment for such a search.

snipped

Miss Scarlet...I finally went to google as I thought they were found broken into the next day as well...and of course I came up with the right page for Dr Hodges's as well.

Should have known it was on the Front Page!!

That is just what I wanted to know. Thanks.

I think that the Masonic lore is the key to the Shango verses.

Well, we are back to the one place that we have no control over in finding out information...the contents of the trap found by the Persistence.  I don't think we will ever know now, since Kyle clearly states that the contents were removed by ALE and no one seems to know where they are now.  I clearly remember Mos on that ship at one point...he knows what was in that trap and he's not going to release any info to anyone. 

I guess what we should think about here is could a trap as large as the one I saw in the video from the persistence actually fit on a boat the size of the Gottenbos and would the waters have been calm enough that night to make it out to the area they found it?  It seemed the water was pretty rough the entire time they were out there and they were in a very large ship...would it be possible to go out that far with seas that rough and dump a trap filled with a body?  I am thinking the answer is yes...but I don't know for sure.  Who would have the courage to carry it out that far?  If you go with the trap and boat scenario you have to disregard all the information about the pond.  If the trap was missing the next day...then she would have been taken out to sea the night before...within hours of daylight.  There are some things we know and the trap being missing is one of them...if it really was missing and only went missing the night before.  Just how reliable are those witnesses...I know they questioned the fishermen...it's in the Dr. Phil documents list but is it possible that they took her out that very night under cover of darkness and the Persistence found her and we still have nothing?  How do all the other things we know fit into this scenario?

[Magnolia,

I read your link and it sounds to me as though Shango may be a Freemason himself, albeit reluctantly.
[/quote]

I think that the Masonic lore is the key to the Shango verses.
[/quote]

Strongly agree.

We saw a picture of a fisherman in a boat no bigger than a row boat with a trap that
size on it and the fisherman was alone.

Hey Magnolia!  LOL  Some think the key is based in Santeria religion...some think it is based in mythology...I am beginning to think it means nothing by now. Yes, I said that...Shango so wanted Joran and the Kalpoes to be innocent and someone else...dirty hand to have all the answers. 

So we have:

Masonic
Santeria
Mythology
Marvel Comics
Gambling


Shango can be interpreted in all theses different areas and quite successfully too. What if Shango had been reading a book that week and he/she used ideas from that particular book to get his message across....what if Shango didn't have a message outside of Simian's postings...what if they both were methods of deception...I could go on and on and I have at one time or the other...what if?  It all depends on who Shango is as to what they meant...just like Simian.

Lalas!!! Our friend just called you back and you didn't answer!!! lol
Can you call him back now.  ::MonkeyConfused:: ::MonkeyHaHa::

Does anyone remember how far out it was?  All I recall is Kyle's post about watching from the beach and IIRC Anita and Paulus did too.

Which of the Gottenbos and Sloot boys were scuba divers? Val?

It fits with the Peter deVries show...I think ::MonkeyConfused::

I wonder.....if perhaps it might be possible that it is someone else's shoes along with Joran's.....I don't doubt about the lying part though....

A fisherman...yes..but would the ones we know that were involved be able to do that?  I think we give them too much credit at being adept at doing what fisherman can do.  I do not think it was just one person that dumped Natalee...that is if she was dumped at sea at all....still there many people that do not think she was ever taken out to sea.

Back to Shango..."never heard the buoy toll" ..."didn't build sandcastles".

Witness that sees Joran at 4 AM....Paulus later...when did first light happen that day? 
Shoe in a pond...burials in a crypt....shallow grave....just too many things we will never know.

I think that the Masonic lore is the key to the Shango verses.
[/quote]

Strongly agree.
[/quote]

I went through the Masonic dictionary one afternoon and found quite a few things that matched with Shango. This was quite a while back and I am not familiar at all with Masonic lore...

I wonder if my Shango would be a Mason?

My opinions are just mine and they may change tomorrow.
It has been my experience that children raised near the ocean know all about the
ocean and all that pertains to it.  They know boats and scuba and fish.
The ocean is their playgound.

If it all happened that night then just about everything else we have believed didn't. Were they diversions.

Lala's...I think all those kids knew the water and boats well.

I still think Simian posted because of Steve Croes being arrested. but then why 2 posts on 6/17 and then no more for days? Unless they were going to railroad Steve! Then again Simian posted almost exclusively from work! ::MonkeyConfused::

Wasn't there something about some rope missing also?...if one placed the trap in the water and dragged it out to sea...then no one would see it and wouldn't have to worry about how big it was and lifting it also...just a thought....

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/1988642/__Holloway-onderzoek_eind_2008_klaar__.html

Never heard the bouy toll...Natalee was already unconscious or deceased

Didn't build sandcastles...Kalpoes didn't take Joran and Nat to the beach, they dropped them somewhere else. 

Not meant to be gruesome, morbid, or disrespectful in any way:

The trap, big knife, painted rocks.  Clearly, these may collectively point to dismemberment.  In America, some criminals live in one jurisdiction, commit a heinous crime in another, yet work in another still.  That is what Ted Bundy did and it made it difficult to catch him.  This is tiny island.  If indeed dismemberment did occur, spreading the body around would make solving it, evidencewise, more difficult.  The body would not be intact.  If Natalee would not fold up to fit in a cage, the knife would solve that.  Then again, criminals like to keep a keepsake of their 'handiwork' as sick as that is.  Maybe they did, and changed their mind as this is a hot, hot potato, and had to discard other parts other places.

It's difficult to fathom, to be sure.  As for the bag in the basin, I saw a body.

Criminals think they can and do commit the perfect crime, but that is not true.

Natalee was, and still is, a Christian.  God did not abandon her, regardless of how it may look to others.  God is still on the throne and will reveal all in His good and perfect timing.  We are not all here as a fluke either.  I may not be able to assist many of you fabulous monkeys detective-wise, but I do uplift you in prayer.  This truly is a fight between good and evil and good will win in the end.  In the meantime, although it is painful beyond words, especially for Natalee's family, she did not die in vain.  Her story has brought a bright light to a dark underworld and has greatly slowed, if not entirely stopped their 'games' at least for the time being.  It has also saved countless young women from being victimized in the same ways she was.  She may in fact, be the catalyst that cleans that place up for good.

Johan...Help...Please!


Thanks Jonathan45...

Translation . . . anyone?

Please and thank ou!

Exactly!

Thank You Miss Scarlet for your insight and thoughts.

Could this be the reason that Steve looks like he does now and why Simian felt a need to point out a 5th. Suspect. This was supposed to have happened around  6/22

Anchor...rope...LoRain...

Posted my mehill10

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=1607.msg228322#msg228322


RBN #20 - 6/23/05 Evening « Reply #166 on: June 23, 2005, 08:18:40 PM »   
 
Quote from: "luna"
Hey...when is this conference supposed to be??


AND....I was cruising other boards last night and I found a *very* interesting reference to an Aruban newspaper article (no link provided) that said one of the Fisherman's Huts in the Lover's Lane area had been broken into the night Natalee went missing.....

and an anchor, rope etc had been stolen.....

Any of our Aruban friends hear anything about that???  Someone speculated that SGC was haning out on the Tattoo that night since it doesn't sail on Sundays....and if things went wrong, he might have been pulled in to help.  The poster also said that the Tattoo had two smaller boats, a dinghy and something else....

Anyway....found it all curious....obviously completely a rumor, and most likely wrong.


quote
I saw it on riehl world view   it was surpost to be in a newpaper   say that they thought the steve guy did the breaking and entering

I think Johan left...I will run it through the Google translator...

Translation: Dutch » English
        Mon 22 September, 2008, 16:51

Holloway case ready at the end of 2008   Twingly blog search 1 blog comments for this article   Holloway investigation at the end of 2008 ready 38 minutes ago Ball's playground What is Twingly? ORANGE CITY -

The investigation into the possible involvement of the Dutch national Joran van der Sloot in the disappearance of American student Natalee Holloway, at the end of this year. Then decide the Public Prosecution Service (PPS) on Aruba whether there is enough evidence against Van der Sloot is for him to justice. It has a judiciary spokeswoman said Monday. Holloway (then 18 years old) disappeared late May 2005 during an evening steps. She was on vacation in Aruba. Since then, lacking any trace of the student from Alabama.

A high-profile show of crime reporter Peter R. de Vries gave on February 3 jammed investigation into the disappearance of the U.S. a new impetus. In the report ontlokte "infiltrator" Patrick van der river Eem suspect Joran van der Sloot for the purpose of the (hidden) camera with a detailed confession about his involvement in the case.

Van der Sloot told him that on the night of 29 to 30 May, 2005 with Natalee on the beach near the Marriott Hotel was. The American was drunk and he began suddenly exposed to shocks, to even later no longer moving. He said all tried to have her back to consciousness, but nothing happened. Then he called a friend and who has Natalee with him aboard his boat gehesen. Subsequently, the body that friend of the U.S. less than two miles from the coast in the water life. Police and Justice Van der Sloot had been longer as a suspect in the grain and put him in for arrest. But the evidence against the Dutchman was not around and they were the authorities in Aruba weather forced him to be released.

The show of Peter R. de Vries did not lead to the re-tightening Joran van der Sloot. According to his lawyer gave the court no authorization, because his client had indicated that his statements against Van der river Eem verifiable were false. Even when the PPS gave that the court took into account a "personality problem" with Van der Sloot.
 
The report of Peter R. de Vries was itself not uncontroversial. After the broadcast was clear that Patrick van der river Eem had a criminal past. He also foresaw Van der Sloot during the soft journeys by car and wrong during the talks he himself sometimes under the influence of cocaine.

Hello all . .

Very similar to last year. Let`s hope they find something against them that helps convict them, or at least stretch the case

Sorry!!  So sorry!! LOL  Will do...give me a minute...I was talking to my kid.  Sorry!

I agree with you..only thing that gives me pause is the way that water looked when the Persistence was out there...a small boat would be tossed about like a toy in those waves.  I am more inclined to think a larger boat was used if we go with the ocean burial.  Like you it's just my opinion.  Sander certainly seems likely to be able to pull it off instead of Koen...also i have often wondered how many of us would have a ready made method of body disposal and be able to do it so well without some previous experience.  I mean, how many people do you know that can be called by their own son and jump into clean up mode without knowing beforehand who to call and what to do? 

Patrick is still not welcome in the U.S.
I hope Peter wins the Emmy, provided that he nails Joran and co-perpetrators ::MonkeyWink::

                      (http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj176/bastibro/Natalee/untitled.jpg)
                             
                       Dave, Beth and the world desperately need JUSTICE4Natalee

Maybe this little tidbit of info was what started Simian on his rampage about the 5th suspect.  As some of suspect he was trying to get his cousin out of a mess and point the finger at the one person that was responsible...that also means he did indeed get a lot of his info from a limited source or two. 

Are cigarette boats like the fast drug boats, same size etc?

Would it have been possible for them to have stashed the cage until the following night? Remember the white truck near the Holiday Inn?

Remember all the questions about whether Joran went to tennis practice on the Monday, if Koen was there, the tennis bag and Paulus.

Joran and Deepak were supposedly at the casino, did some-one else take over on Monday night?

Mum,

I've wondered that too.  Get a leisure looking boat (don't know the official name of those kind), pull canopy over that comes with the boat, go out in broad daylight with everyone else having an innocent fun time, but go out further and dump.  No one the wiser.  Hundreds of witnesses, but 'news' for all intents and purposes isn't 'out' yet, so no one 'sees' anything because nothing appears abnormal.

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=cigarette+boat&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2

many photos here

Besides that, she could have been in a boat, canopied over, all night in the yard, family member gets up in the a.m. and announces they are going to cruise on the water for a bit, and the female adult in the house just says o.k., have fun - see you in a bit!  Having no thoughts she is married to a demon (of that magnitude, anyway._

I pick option number three: really in your face brave.  Didn't they lawyer up really quickly too?  And there are still a lot of Americans that don't understand just what happened in Aruba.   ::MonkeyNoNo::

I need some one that is way smarter than me to answer this question....

Where is the information about Paulus being denied compensation for this case based on that 4 AM sighting of him at the ATM?  Do we have that in some official capacity being written down?  Was it a news story or was it written in a local Aruban paper?  I would really, really, really appreciate it if some one with access to that information could post it once again for me.  I want to narrow it down to whether or not there was a witness that saw them or was it based on something else that caused the courts to decide Paulus could not get any money for his troubles.

I really need this information.

One more thing....would someone please check for an update on the Dr. Phil case.  Have there been any depositions taken and where are we at with this at this time? TIA

The Persistence was there at a different time of year.
As I recall, they were bucking tropical storm seas all the way there.
The trade winds create different conditions at different times
of the year.
I thnk the seas were calm when Natalee disappeared.

The boats the fishermen use are very small and I imagine there are some days when the water conditions would be to rough. The trap on the other hand- ie as the one found by the persistence had to weigh a couple hundred pounds......did we have it confirmed that the trap they found was exactly like the one missing from the Fishermens Huts? I will post this video link because the size of the fishermens boat, and if I recall correctly Tim Miller showing a trap at one point , are similar to the one in this video.....not like the one found by the Persistence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpxYEdXpjcw

Thanks for the reply Mum....and I remember watching the video of the trap....when the divers were next to it...the size looked plenty big to place someone in...

Tim and the Persistence Crew had a trap built to match the specifications
that the fisherman provided as to the exact size of the missing trap.

09. COMPENSATION DENIED - DETENTION JUSTIFIED

Aruba Diario - 02-14-07
The whole case of the disappearance of Natalee Holloway gets a different twist now that the information has come out from no less than the Superior Court, and in which mention is made of the declarations of witnesses and a phone tap that show or give an indication that Paul van der Sloot had on two occasions personal contact with Natalee during the night that she disappeared. Mention is made that, according to one or more official reports of the phone tap and also the declaration of Paul van der Sloot himself, that Paul fetched Joran and Natalee at McDonald and took them to the Holiday Inn. Based on this information, the judicial authorities and the police had at that time a justified basis to arrest Paul van der Sloot based on different suspicions. Translation Credit: Diario Aruba

http://nataleesfreebirds.blogspot.com/2007/08/paulus-van-der-sloot.html

The link at this time does not seem to be working. This article was posted by Debbie at BFN. Nor does it specifically mention the 4 am discrepancy, so I will keep looking.


+++++++++
No damages in Holloway Case

15 February 2007

AMSTERDAM – Paul van der Sloot, father of the main suspect in the Natalee Holloway case, has not been awarded any damages by the court in Aruba. The decision cannot be appealed.

Paul van der Sloot was himself detained from 23 June until 26 June 2005 in connection with the disappearance of American high school student Natalee Holloway. The examining magistrate decided at the time that there was not enough evidence of involvement in the case.

The father of Joran, who is still a suspect in the case, based his claim for damages on this decision from the magistrate. Last year the court initially ruled that he should be granted damages of 40,000 Aruban guilders (18,000 euro).

The court has now ruled that his arrest at the time was “without grounds but not unjustified.” “So he will not be getting anything,” summarised lawyer Arie Swaen.

Eighteen-year-old Holloway disappeared after a night out on 30 May 2005. She left a nightclub with three young men and was never found. The police have arrested ten people since her disappearance but all have since been released.

There was much criticism from the US about how Aruban authorities handled the case. The Netherlands has led the investigation since September and made officers of the national police corps available to the effort.

http://www.expatica.com/actual/article.asp?subchannel_id=19&story_id=36556

http://scaredmonkeys.com/2007/02/14/nothing-for-you-paulus-van-der-sloot-says-supreme-court

Article there

Magnolia wrote;


Do you recall what those measurements/ weight were? I would be interested in knowing,TIA.

shot

It appears likely that what Paulus was overheard saying to the posse the night they arrived outside his home may have been correctly heard and therefore compensation denied?


++++++++++++
Reporter (Twan Huys): On the day you were arrested, this past Thursday, with which communication were you told?  What was told to you as to why you were taken into custody?

Paul van der Sloot: That was not told to me when I was apprehended.  During the apprehension I was told that I was suspected of complicity to murder manslaughter and usurpatory freedom spoliation (kidnapping). During the session with the judge [5], it was told that the suspicion originated, because that Monday night, when so many people were standing there in front of the door, I allegedly declared that at four o'clock, I picked up Joran. And someone else, allegedly declared that I picked up Joran and Natalee, while my own declaration was, directed at police officers, that I picked up Joran at eleven o'clock at the McDonald's. That is, of course remarkable that the public prosecutor's office adds two witness statements of people who were standing somewhere in the back, and not the witness declaration from the police officers, where I direct myself to, and directed myself to, as much as possible.

http://www.scrux.com/natalee/paulusinterview.htm

Reporter (Twan Huys):  And these declarations were the base for your arrest and incarceration?

Paul van der Sloot: Together with the fact that I allegedly instructed the boys, Deepak, Satish and Joran what they should do, say or do, in case of a possible apprehension. And indeed, I have, when I foresaw that they could go from witness to suspect, explained them the procedure, with the intention that they will not panic. But, also that was enough for the prosecutor's office to suspect me of complicity.

Would never presume to be smarter than you Lalas.
Diario printed the story on Vantentines Day in 2007,
I think I have seen a copy of the official document somewhere.
Here is the Freebirds info on Paulus.

http://nataleesfreebirds.blogspot.com/2007/08/paulus-van-der-sloot.html

how the hell can they say this ???
The investigation into the possible involvement of the Dutch national Joran van der Sloot in the disappearance of American student Natalee Holloway, at the end of this year.
It is the same mesaage as last year  ::MonkeyHaHa::

I have no idea of the specifications.  The picture of the trap in the
grass, close to the huts is the new one that they had made.

It's their annual message... ::MonkeyRoll::

History's Most Famous Missing Persons
Being famous doesn't make you easier to find

Posted: Thursday, September 18, 2008
(http://www.officer.com/images/contributor/cmoore120x150.jpg)
Carole Morre is a columnist and contributing editor at Law Enforcement Technology. A former criminal investigator, she writes for numerous national publications. She is passionate about the need for better tools in the investigation of missing persons cases and identification of recovered remains.


CAROLE MOORE
Missing Persons Contributor


If you had to pick the world's most famous missing person, who would it be? My vote would probably go to Amelia Earhart, who inspired so many little girls to reach for the skies.

Another disappearance I've always found interesting is turn-of-the-century writer Ambrose Bierce, who vanished while in his 70s somewhere in the Mexican countryside during the Mexican revolution. Historical accounts say Bierce traveled to Chihuahua with Pancho Villa's troops, and then simply dropped off the face of the earth.

Jimmy Hoffa, leader of the Teamsters and an enigmatic figure in American labor, also mysteriously evaporated, although it is widely (and probably correctly) believed that Hoffa was the victim of a contract hit authorized by organized crime.

Being rich or famous or a member of the ruling class offers no protection against misfortune, just more publicity and the guarantee there will be much conjecture on the parts of the public and media. For proof, consider the case of Owain Glyndwr, the last Welsh-born Prince of Wales.

Glydwr led a long-running revolt against the sitting English monarch. Despite a rousing start, his forces were soon routed, and the charismatic leader disappeared into the pages of time, never to be heard from again.

His last confirmed sighting: 1412. To this day scholars, historians and amateur sleuths continue to seek Glydwr's grave. He's also been the subject of a number of literary works and was represented as a character in one of Shakespeare’s plays.

Royal blood certainly cuts down on the chances that a disappearance is innocent. Many royals, such as the two young princes in the tower, appear to be victims of age-old power grabs in dark and dangerous times. The princes, nephews of Richard III, were relegated to the Tower Of London at the time of their disappearance. Their fate represents a lingering mystery in the subsequent centuries. Skeletal remains, possibly linked to the two boys, were found during some old renovations, but the case remains unresolved.

Virginia Dare, the first child born to English settlers, went missing, leaving history with a huge question mark on her fate and that of the other early colonists. Playwright Paul Green's outdoor drama, The Lost Colony, plays to packed stadiums every year, proving that even today, historical disappearances intrigue us all.

In more recent times, adventurous men and women have stepped into the pages of history in the pursuit of one truth or another. Englishman Percy Fawcett, an archaeologist, disappeared on an expedition with his son and a friend while looking for the famous city of gold in South America. Other adventurers include the progeny of famous families: Actor Errol Flynn's son Sean vanished with a co-worker while making a documentary on the Khmer Rouge in 1970; and Michael Rockefeller, scion of the wealthy Rockefeller family, disappeared during a scholarly expedition to New Guinea.

Transportation mishaps add to the mysteries of missing persons: ships have been found devoid of their occupants, airliners have taken off and never been heard from again and others have ridden or driven off into the sunset - and total oblivion.

Amelia Earhart's disappearance, along with her navigator Fred Noonan, constitutes one of the greatest and certainly most debated, missing persons cases in history.

An accomplished aviatrix at a time when the world was beginning to feel the grim effects of the Axis alliance, Earhart - with Noonan - was trying to circumnavigate the globe when the plane disappeared over the Pacific Ocean. Although many theories have been floated over the years as to their fate - from rumors they were working as U.S. government spies, to the pair's crash landing on a barren Pacific atoll - no definitive answer as to their fate has surfaced.

Earhart's case continues to draw interest for three reasons: Her fame at the time of her disappearance, the perpetuation of theories and continuing nonstop publicity.

The vast majority of missing people were not famous. In fact, most of the missing are ordinary, representing a mix of individuals who have chosen to remove themselves from society and others with no choice in the matter. It is this last group, the ones whose lives are disrupted as a result of abduction and other crimes that police seek.

While willful disappearances also concern authorities, especially when the individuals are minors or suffering from some type of mental impairment, the cases involving foul play or accident are by far the ones that receive the greatest media play. Most continuing publicity results from friends and family keeping high the public interest.

Publicity like this insures high public interest in missing individuals like Kristen Modafferi, a North Carolina college student who disappeared from a summer job in San Francisco; Jason Jolkowski, a young man who disappeared while on his way to work in Omaha, Neb.; and Natalee Holloway, a recent high school graduate who vanished while on a post-graduation trip to Aruba.

In each case, the families of these missing children have worked hard to keep their loved ones visible and their causes active by building Web sites, giving interviews, posting photographs and in general staying proactively involved with the media. I can't imagine a more difficult task.

While the search for someone famous, like Amelia Earhart will always attract attention, the families of those who are not already in the public eye have to work hard to put and keep them there. It's a thankless job and one I hope never to learn.

Warren Sonne: Must be a cover-up

 The Natalie Holloway case. If ever there was a case that has frustrated the American media, this is it. The police and prosecutor in Aruba have been the brunt of a tenacious and sustained attack from U.S. journalists, and from the Holloway/Twitty families. It is understandable that the family would continue to push for an arrest or information, and to try and keep the case in the headlines. On the other hand, our media has taken the position that Aruba is simply being, well…un-American. Don't they know about the First Amendment down in Aruba? How dare they not tell us everything they know! Where do they get off not leaking to the press? Must be a cover-up, or incompetence, or inexperience. All of these claims continue to be made against the Arubans, who continue to keep their finger in the information dike.

It seems to me that our prosecutors and police should be taking notes here.

(http://www.officer.com/images/contributor/warren_120x150.jpg)

Warren Sonne is the President of Pinnacle Protective Services in NY, and SunState Investigative Service, in FL, the founder of the United States Association of Professional Investigators, and the author of "Criminal Investigations for the Professional Investigator (Taylor&Francis/CRC Publications, 2006). He retired as a detective from the New York City Police Department, where he served as an investigator for 18 years in a number of elite units. During his NYPD service, he was awarded numerous decorations, including the department's second-highest honor, the Combat Cross. He has extensive specialized training and experience in many types of investigations and investigative techniques, both as a police and as a private investigator.

So there is not mention of a 4 AM time at all??? Just that Paulus claims to have picked up Joran and Natalee at the McDonald's.  Hmmmmm.  Now that is interesting...so how do we get this 4 AM at the ATM story?  Where did that come from??  Anyone??

Good question!!

Hi Monks,

Have you already seen this picture?

http://tinyurl.com/3ob7fl

It says: 'Joran has a second job... At Bangkoks daynursery'

Greets

(http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/foto/0c5acdf2_354909225_6_xGgN.jpeg)

Is that really him????

Forgot to say:
Below the picture it says:

'Children some days later, have vanished...'

http://tinyurl.com/3ob7fl

Looks photoshopped to me as well.  I'm going to take a closer look at that pic  ::MonkeyHaHa:: ::MonkeyWink::

imo, this announcement every year is to placate the tourism business about their high season.  it's a talking point to assure everyone that aruba's finest is still hard at work trying to solve the case and put j2k in jail where they belong.
dennisintn

Does anyone remember where we got the 4 AM ATM story?  Is it credible?  TIA

I think it's photoshopped:

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub4/joranphotoshop.jpg)

The first time I heard 4AM was Beth stating that Paulus told them he picked Joran up at 4AM the night Natalee disappeared.  There was also a news article that came out after Paulus was denied his money.  I think I remember something in there confirming that witnesses verified what Beth stated.  I don't think it was the same one referenced with the two contacts, but I'll see what I can find.

Thank you.  I would love to see the news article that says 4 AM.

That is correct Ree, I will look too.

not only there klaas  ::MonkeyHaHa::

Here is what Beth said on Greta>>>>
BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY: I think I just saw specific little details that just have started eating me alive just, I mean, from details of that first night, when we met Joran and Paul and Deepak, you know, just little details that have been eating away at me on this pick-up time at McDonald's, you know, Paul van der Sloot stated specifically and emphatically he picked them up at 4 a.m. I have it documented in my journal too many times to know that...

VAN SUSTEREN: At 11 p.m.?

BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY: No, he told us 4 a.m.

GEORGE "JUG" TWITTY: To start with.

BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY: To start with. And then, you know, I noticed when you and I went to his home, do you know that was the first time that he had ever changed it to 11 p.m.?

VAN SUSTEREN: But before then, it had been 4 a.m., but then with us, it's 11 p.m.

BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY: Yes, 4 a.m. on May 31, he stated — I documented in my journal — that he stated to the police spokesperson that he picked Joran up at 4 a.m. Again, on June 17, I have it documented in my journal that they were going to question Paul that day about the 4 a.m. pick-up. And then it changed. That's why I was so shocked that day that you and I went to his home. That was the first time that he had changed to it 11 p.m., to the 29th. So that's just one example of many little details that are just driving me crazy now that I'm back home.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,164506,00.html

will see if I can find it in any 'news' report

A. BETH TWITTY CLAIMS - PAULUS VAN DER SLOOT DENIES

Beth has claimed from day one that Paulus Van der Sloot stated on the morning of May 31, 2005 in front of his residence that he had driven to McDonalds at 4:00 AM on the morning that Natalee went missing to pick up Joran and ?. This info was recorded in her journal, and witnessed by all others at the Van der Sloot residence that night. Within two and half weeks of that encounter, Paulus Van der Sloot denied Beth's claims and insisted that he had stated that he had picked up Joran at 11:00 PM on the evening of Mar 29, 2005.

Beth Twitty - NANCY GRACE (CNN)
BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY: Oh -- oh, it`s a very critical detail. And the night that we arrived on the island -- you know, Jug does not misinterpret a 4:00 AM time pickup to 11:00 PM. I mean, Paulus Van Der Sloot stated that he picked up at 4:00 AM on May the 30th. Then -- we don`t know who they were, but then even as far as June 16 and June 17, Mr. Van Der Sloot was still stating this 4:00 AM pickup. Only until around -- maybe it was when he was picked up or arrested did he change it to 11:00 PM that I had knowledge of.

Beth Twitty - 'Rita Cosby Live & Direct'
TWITTY: ...... And, you know, what Jug and I had discussed last night was that, you know, we go back to the very beginning. And that‘s the reason why Paulus Van Der Sloot was arrested in connection with Natalee‘s disappearance, because he had lied to the authorities by saying that he had changed his pickup time.

Paulus Van der Sloot - June 23, 2005 - Suspect Statement
To your question whether I picked up Joran on the 30th of May 2005, in the early morning hours, I can state the following. I have previously stated that I had picked up Joran on Sunday May 29th at approximately 23.00 hours near Mc Donalds. Subsequently I woke up at that Monday morning at approximately 05.45 hours. In the hours between I had gone to sleep and I did not hear Joran leaving or hear him return home.
http://nataleesfreebirds.blogspot.com/2007_04_01_archive.html

I got the "willies" thinking about Joran working with kids....I sure hope that's a doctored photo....I wish these blankety-blank people would quit messing around with pics....

I'm thinking there was a report about a security guard seeing Paulus at the ATM at 4 AM.

I haven't come across it yet, but I'll keep looking.

I did come across this post by *******, so there were probably other witnesses to it.  Hopefully their statements made it into the case file.

(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b258/texasmom55/PVDSSeenAt3am05302005.jpg)

dugo's translation of the Dutch legal form (not Paulus's lawyers interpretation):

dugo  Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 8:47 pm
Translating Dutch legalese is a bitch, here is a dugofish version.

Paying attention to the deceitful declaration the son of Paulus, Johan A. P. van de Sloot (hereafter Joran), initially made about his last contact with the on May 30th missing Natalee Holloway the suspicion was not unreasonable that he made himself guilty towards her of behaviour that might be classified as murder, manslaughter or theft of freedom with death as result.

The possible involvement of Paulus in this could, at that time, be inferred from the the PVs of witness declarations in the file of which two suggest personal contact between Paulus and Natalee Holloway in the night of her disappearance and a wiretap report (which are shown by the temporary attorney general in end note 1 of the note handed over at session of the court).

The wiretap report and his declaration that he picked up Joran and Natalee at McDonalds Palm Beach and brought them to Holiday Inn were clearly seen by the prosecution office - and could have been seen so according to judgment of the court - as an indication of involvement of Paulus in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway.



doc wrote:
Thanks dugo - that is fairly close to what SM's translation says. Lazlo says that is not the actual court ruling though. Did you see the article she posted?

dugo  Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 8:54 pm
The only clue of the origins is that this is clearly written by a court. Looks like a snippet.

No 4am, but there could be more.

The dimensions of the crab trap can be found on Dr Hodges's website.  TES did build a matching trap so they would better understand of what they were searching for.  If I recall, the size of the trap from the fisherman's hut was about the size of a queen or king sized bed.

If I recall, the trap that was shown on the documentary for TV was not the same trap as the one where the actual human remains were found.  I think it was Kyle who pointed this out to us.  The pictures that were posted on the Internet of the skull were very upsetting to Kyle.  Those pictures had been intended for the FBI and a picture was released to Dave and Robin.  It was never intended that they were to be released to the general public.

Back around March, there was a lot of discussion about the size of the traps.  Someone will need to go back and check this, but I think the trap with the remains was a larger trap than the one missing from the huts.  There was much discussion as to where the larger size trap would have come from.  Kyle suggested that we try to find out who was missing a large trap.  I could be very wrong, but I don't think the missing trap from the huts is the same trap that held the remains that were found.  It was also discussed that the larger trap could have been placed at the location where TES found it as a kind of "post office" for drugs that were moved into Aruba.  The remains found in the trap could have been a drug dealer who made someone mad.

This isn't the original yet, but I found this at BFN

Does anyone besides me think that it is absurd for a kid who reported that he sneaked out of the house that night, but then called his father to pick him up with a girl at 4:00 AM, when he was due in school within a few hours?

I found a reference that LaLa's is looking for where an Aruban says Paulus picked Joran up at 4AM, but I don't know how to bring it here.  Can sombody help me?  It's here.

   Lively Case Discussion #582 2/10 - 2/15/2007
« Reply #675 on: February 14, 2007, 01:29:40 PM »

Careful, there's lot's of Robots back there.  It'll make you sad.

 Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #752 5-15-08  on: May 16, 2008, 08:59:01 AM

I'll try to clarify a few points. Nice pics by the way.
- The pond was searched because of a promising lead we received. 
- We were able to conduct the scanning sonar (not to be confused with side scan sonar) search of the pond because of some weather related down time during the ocean search. 
- My analysis of the sonar was used to 1) show that the pond needed to be drained in opposed to be investigated with divers.  The only way to effectively search the pond would be if it were dry. 2) show that there were objects in the pond aside from tires.  I'm not commenting on what these objects could be because I'm not speculating.  I will say that I at least saw tires (I saw a pic of one somewhere) in the scanning sonar.
- The reason the pond search was so delayed was on account of the labor strike.  The pond needed to be completely drained which needed the help of the Polis and fire department.  Needless to say labor was needed and hard to come by.  When the strike ended the pond search happened almost immediately.
- No one said the 40-52 (whatever) investigators from Holland ever stepped foot in or near the pond.  The timing is coincident.  Did anyone see these investigators anywhere near the pond?  I don't think so.     

I hope that cleared up more questions that it raises.

******************************************************************

I found this post by OE when I was searching for information about the lobster cage.  Several months later, part of this post has jumped out at me.  I might be reading this wrong, but it appears to me that Kyle is saying that the Dutch forensic team were not the ones who drained the pond and searched it.  If they didn't do it, who did???  FBI? TES? ALE?  Who has the evidence that was recovered in this search?

We were told that the search team were there at night with all of the lights on from the soccer field.  My new question is...who searched the pond?

Somebody tries to make him look good.
Anybody knows where it came from?

Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #752 5-15-08  on: May 15, 2008, 07:31:03 PM 

Oceanexploration

Honestly it's hard to answer that question without mixing facts with speculation.  If you want my opinion for whatever it's worth, here it is.

From the beginning, the case was made very public and the cover-up started almost immediately, presumably to protect the tourism interests of the Island, if nothing else. The Persistence search was something of a turning point in the case in the way it was being handled.  Most people involved in the investigation from the beginning were replaced with others who are being heavily scrutinized to avoid further problems. 
If this case were being handled properly we should hear nothing until there were arrests.  All evidence and the investigation should be kept completely quiet until all the pieces are in place to make a proper arrest and charge all of the people involved.  I have good reason to believe this case is being handled better than before the Persistence search. 

- The investigative team is extensive and qualified from my understanding, though I am not in contact with them. 
- The Polis has spent something on the order of half their annual budget already just working on the Holloway case. 
- I know at least 40 investigators were brought in from Holland in regards to the investigation, though Caps quotes 52.  52 or 40, I don't know but it's a lot of man power for a case recently reopened from a cold-case IMO. 
- Samples collected from the trap were sent to the FBI for analysis and they won't comment on the case at all.   
- The Monserat pond was searched after it was pumped dry.  No one is commenting on the pond search.
I trust most of the people now leading the investigation.  That's difficult to say across the boards, but I do trust most.  If the investigation is active and moving forward, I would expect silence and results over time.  How much time?  I wouldn't expect to hear anything by at least September but this is only a guess.   The fact that there is silence is either incouraging or discouraging depending on how you look at it.  If you're an optimist, silence means the investigation is proceeding carefully and quietly which is good.  If you're a pessimist, the silence means nothing is happening and the waiting will highly frustrate you.

Personally, I think it's a coin flip but am optimistic that at least the investigation into the investigation will be handled fully.



OK, we have at least two sources telling us that 40-50 foresenics people were brought in from Holland to search the pond.  But, the Dutch didn't search the pond?  Something doesn't make sense, based on what we have been led to believe.

From Oceanexplorer...

21   Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #751 5/8 -  on: May 14, 2008, 01:26:56 PM 
Greetings,

I'm sure you've already heard, but the pond is ropped off and now dry.  40 investigators from Holland were brought in related to the case.  No word on the outcome yet.   
All the best
************************

If they didn't search the pond, who did?

i`ve put it on youtube                   http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=_LgqlWqn3ys
Have fun watching the Emmy`s ::cartwheel::.
I`m going to see my own Emmy`s, in my dreams
Sleep tight

Thanks Bastibro!  I hope you have a good night and rest well!

 ::MonkeyCool::

  Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #744 3/19 -  on: March 19, 2008, 10:36:39 PM

Oceanexplorer...

I'll do the best I can...
- The samples were recovered by Aruban divers on the 7th of Jan.  These samples include a fabric found inside the trap which was sent for a comparative analysis to the FBI.  However, the samples were also reportedly DNA tested. I heard there were remains from a source, who likely referred to DNA as remains, as he said there was DNA found.  However, it's rather ambiguous to me, but the take home message from the FBI is simply: they're not commenting on the case and the fabric wasn't Natalee's blouse.  I'm unaware of any bone found.
Hope that helps some. 


Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #744 3/19 -  on: March 19, 2008, 03:27:10 PM

It's possible to have been 10 years or so.  I don't know for certain and don't have any way to readily test this. The trap was somewhat intact.  It's north side was in poor shape, with significant deterioration of it's northern panels.  The trap's doop is usually fastened to the outside of the trap.  It was laying inside the trap, as if pushed open. The contents sampled inside the trap were laying on top of the door.  The trap was found in 90 ft.

 Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #744 3/19 -  on: March 19, 2008, 03:21:31 PM

After the Jan 7th dive, I was scheduled to take a short break on land, staying at the Holiday Inn between Jan 9th and returning to the Persistence on Jan 14th.  I had been working steadily since Dec 15th and needed a break.  It was a coincidence I was around to be walking the beach to observe what I saw with the vessel at or near the site on the 11th and 12th of Jan.  I don't know for certain if there is anything to it.  When asked if they were diving the site, they replied: "we don't have dive capabilities". 

If samples from the trap were recovered by ALE divers on January 7th, then what was the coast guard ship that OE saw doing at the site on January 14th?  This was a week after the contents of the trapped were recovered.


Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #743 3/14 -  on: March 18, 2008, 03:04:38 PM

The "99.9%" came independantly from Tim Miller to Dave H. on Dec 29th, prior to the diver visual inspection of the trap.   I can't imagine what that must have felt like to be told and then completely retracted the next day.  I couldn't believe the information was prematurely leaked to the family before we knew what we were looking at.  My heart broke for Dave and Beth.

Personally, I fed off of Tim's inflated confidence and my own on the night of Dec 29th.  I did not sleep. Few of us did. The only person able to remain completely objective, much to his credit, was John Silvetti.  In hindsight, I am in awe of him for his wisdom(from past hard experiences) and strength. At the time, I thought he was nuts for not siding with the rest of us after the first dive. It was a crushing dissapointment the evening of Dec 30th, but not over.  The tactile inspection dive was coming. Dec 30th, 2007  will forever stand in my mind as one of the hardest single days of my life.

This was one week before the contents of the cage were recovered by ALE on January 7th.


 Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #743 3/14 -  on: March 18, 2008, 02:34:39 PM

Oceanexploration responding to questions from SS...

I have a few questions.
1) If the FBI at Quantico tested the fabric that was found in the trap, how did they get it?  It sounds like the Dutch got their hands on the trap contents as you stood on the beach and watched.  You must have just wanted to scream when you figured out what was obviously going on.
- the "samples" were sent to the FBI by Richardson by his own admission (2nd hand info).
- I cannot confirm nor deny the Dutch doing anything with the site.  From my best estimate, it appeared they were on the site.  I have no other reason to base this theory on.  It's not as obvious as it sounds paraphrased.  I think it's a coin flip.


2) Can we assume that the Dutch have the real goods and the FBI just has the fabric?
- I have no idea.  I have no reason to assume or speculate on this. 

3) Is it possible that possibly very detailed DNA tests are being done on whatever was found and that no statements have been made because of the blunders in the past three years?
- I don't know.  The only thing I know is from the report that said no DNA match to Natalee in the fabric and the fabric wasn't a match to her blouse.
4) Do you have any idea who might own a fish trap that size?
-I don't know which is why I raised the question earlier.

5) Are there any other important people who have disappeared from Aruba who could be in that trap?
-I don't have a clue. It's still possible there wasn't anyone ever in the trap.  This appears to have been and remains the official stance.

6) Do you think that it's possible there might be additional fish traps among the remaining sites that you need to inspect.
-I can't comment on this because we need to inspect the targets.  This is largely the point of inspection.

7) Could Dutch/Aruban interference be the reason why Persistence left so suddenly?
- I have no reason to suspect this.  We didn't leave so suddenly.  We were there since December 15th and left over two months later.  This is hardly sudden.

You must be very frustrated by what is now going on with the contents of the trap.
- I don't know what now is going on with the contents of the trap, if anything.  It's hard to know what to think or feel.

You went to Aruba with a very heroic motive and you put out a lot of work. I am more than concerned if information is being withheld or if Natalee's recovery has been sabotaged by the Dutch or Arubans.
-sometimes information being withheld is a good thing and necessary for the sake of the case.  The only solid base for witholding info is from our FBI who say they're not commenting on the case.  This however, is nothing new and neither bad nor good.  It means nothing.  I have no reason to suspect sabotage by anyone.

 I am also terribly disappointed in even thinking about imagining that Tim Miller would cave into the Dutch or the Aruban ALE.


Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #743 3/14 -  on: March 18, 2008, 12:22:38 PM

On the issue of Trap recovery:

-After the visual inspection on 30-Dec, the initial plan discussed by the project leads and Aruban police was for us (the team on board the Persistence) to be directly involved in the recovery of the trap.  There were talks about getting the proper equipment on board the Persistence such as a suction-recovery system to sift small items from the sand.  The talks continued after Jan-7th when the samples were collected.
-Just after the 30th of Dec we were told it would take about 10-14 days to bring in a Dutch team capable of processing an underwater site. 

-Jan 9th through 13th I was off the boat and staying at the Holiday Inn for a much-needed break.  I walked up and down the beach many times a day.  On the 11th and 12th, I noticed the Dutch coast guard vessel at or VERY near the trap site.   I talked to a wind surfer instructor who claims to be at the beach every day for 8 years.  He said the boat always comes up the shore just south of where we were standing, turns away and heads offshore.  He said it never goes where it was and has never seen it stop.
The vessel was on that spot for 42 minutes that day and about the same duration the next day.  I triangulated it's position the best I could using a wrist watch and a few points on land.  It was right on the target location based on the measurements.

-When I returned to the Persistence (14-Jan) there were no more talks about a trap recovery.  When I pressed the issue, I was told "they're no longer interested in the trap or it's recovery".
-I raised the issue again in early February and the response was the same - no interest about the trap and no plans to recover.

I assume one of three scenarios: 1) They genuinely aren't interested in the trap, 2) They are/were interested and will take care of it themselves (or have already done so) and don't want us informed or involved, or 3) They already recovered the trap (or processed the site) and don't want us to know for whatever reason, good or otherwise.

It definitely appears that the contents of the trap were removed by ALE prior to the Dutch Coast Guard ship arriving at the site.


Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #743 3/14 -  on: March 18, 2008, 11:32:30 AM

Oceanexplorer is answering questions from Buckeye...

This trap could not have "fallen" from a commercial fishing ship ( such as a shipped docked for repairs, etc.) because of the depth and location.
- Falling is highly unlikely given it's location and condition.

This trap was not lowered by crane, or whatever because it wasn't situated in a position that demonstrated "lowering", unless one end was really weighted down? I would think the ropes etc, to the crane would level it?
-Lowering by a windlass or winch would not explain the impact depression from one corner of the trap.  If it were leveled, one would assume it would fall level.  This is further supported because the 4-point rigging was still on the trap.

Do the restaurants that sell shrimp and spiny lobsters have fishermen that use these traps?  I thought the fishermen docked by the HI.
-This is a different type commercial fish trap used (to my knowledge) in deep water for grouper, snapper, etc
I would think, a trap that size would have to be loaded by the Container Harbor (where Jaime worked). Is there an Aruban commercial fisherman located at The Container Harbor?
-I didn't see any fishing boats at the port facility the entire time I was there.

The belief is that the trap has not been disturbed since it's original placement (which looks to be about when?).
- Unknown, see previous post about the timing and duration

I believe in your scientific mind...so there must be something to all this...or I believe you would have dropped the idea about "this" trap.
- I believe the story of the trap is far from over despite Mos's press release. The other project leads feel it's best to forget about the trap and "move on" mainly for operational reasons (to focus on what may still be out there), also lack of immediate answers about the trap.  Keep in mind our tight time and financial constraints. I support their position.  It's certainly wise.
- However, I'm personally split three ways about the trap.  Not all the project leads feel as I do, but of course all the people involved in the search have highly varied levels of exposure and information particularly in relation to the trap.   

The trap was obviously a commercial fishing trap and larger than the one which had been behind the fisherman's huts.  

 Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #743 3/14 -  on: March 18, 2008, 10:21:41 AM

We've internally discussed the possibility of a "post office" of sorts while awaiting forensic testing results. 
The problems with this theory include: 
-little or no evident anchor scars from a boat or boats at or anywhere near the site which would support diving ops.
-The trap shows no apparent evidence of human tampering one would expect from in situ placement and removal of objects inside the trap. The sand inside the trap shows no disruption.  The soft growth on the trap shows no obvious scars, where something scrapes or slides on the trap during a placement or withdrawal.

The potential issues of a Venezuelan fishing vessel passing through:
- The location of the trap is significantly out of the way for passing through vessels. 
- The location of the trap is not in an area where fishermen fish with commercial traps.
- There are no significant near by seabed obstructions which the trap would have gotten hung-up on to explain it's loss.
- The trap is only in 90ft of water, which makes it easily recoverable by divers if accidentally lost.
Other notes:
- The location is in the lee of the island, which makes the location somewhat weather protected and therefore less likely to have been lost during a storm.
- The trap appears to be in it's original location, as evident by an impact depression in the seabed clearly seen in the sonar.
-It appears the trap hit the bottom very hard as in a free fall.  One corner hit just before the others and the trap seemingly "bounced" a few feet and remained in its current position and orientation.   

 Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #743 3/14 -  on: March 18, 2008, 09:28:45 AM

I learned from a source that there is only one place/person(?) on Aruba where a large commercial fish trap would have originated.  This should make it a reasonable venture figuring out who's trap we found.  The next logical move would be after finding them, asking them to explain their missing trap.  1) How did they lose it  2) why was it lost where it was 3) what were it's contents when it was "lost" and 3) what boat was used to transport the trap.

Any ideas of who may have possessed such a trap?
Approx. 7.5 x 7.5 x 2.5ft, and 200-300lbs, hundreds of feet of rope complete with 4-point rigging. 

Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #740 3/5 -  on: March 07, 2008, 10:40:46 AM

As far as the beak-in at the huts:
As I see it there are two possibilities.  First, the fish huts were actually broken into and therefore likely related to the case. Alternatively, the door was kicked in by the Police during the search within a couple days of Natalee's dissapearance and a lovely new knife taken in the process. 
In either case, a trap, a sneaker, and a girl went missing. 

Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #740 3/5 -  on: March 07, 2008, 09:41:07 AM

As you already know, the trap dimensions you are familiar with came from Dr. Hodges.  To my knowledge, he did not speak with the fisherman who owned the hut which was broken into.  He spoke with the owner of the fishermans huts. 
Not that it is of any consequence, because the fisherman who leases the hut which was broken into 1) doesn't speak a lick of English 2) likely fishes mainly at night and 3) the trap likely didn't belong to the fisherman who's hut was broken into.  I walked by the huts about 5-6 times a day for 4 straight days during the time of day Hodges went to the Huts to learn as much as possible. I didn't encounter that fisherman once.  However, I spoke to the fisherman next to the one that was broken into who was often sitting out front of his hut.  He could only say hello in English. 

Regardless of the questionable applicability of the information, we decided to use the dimensions Dr. Hodges provided to serve as a baseline or minimum sonar target.

As for the trap being the one that was reportedly next to the fisherman's huts...I honestly don't know and can't prove that it is or isn't at this point.  I believe early on Dompig referred to the fish trap as being HUGE at one point.  A 5'x 4' trap hardly qualifies as huge

It looks like the trap from the fishermen was not the same trap that was located by TES.  ALE took the contents of the cage a week before the Dytch Coast Guard appeared on the scene.  ALE reported that the contents of the trap were sent to the FBI.  Is the FBI more involved in this case than we realize?  Did the FBI also search the pond?

Thanks to everyone that has been searching for the 4 AM statement...so far there is only the family saying that Paulus said 4 AM.  I certainly believe the family...but I do not think that the reason they told Paulus to take a hike was due to a statement by the family.  There has to be more than this. 

Is there a bank with an ATM near the McDonalds???
Was it 3 AM or 4AM? 

As far as I can tell the courts denied Paulus on the basis of someone placing Paulus in contact with Natalee at least 2 times on the night in question and the fact that something was picked up on wiretaps concerning Paulus being at the McDonalds. HMMMM.

- No one said the 40-52 (whatever) investigators from Holland ever stepped foot in or near the pond.  The timing is coincident.  Did anyone see these investigators anywhere near the pond?  I don't think so.     


- I know at least 40 investigators were brought in from Holland in regards to the investigation, though Caps quotes 52.  52 or 40, I don't know but it's a lot of man power for a case recently reopened from a cold-case IMO. 

I'm sure you've already heard, but the pond is ropped off and now dry.  40 investigators from Holland were brought in related to the case.  No word on the outcome yet.   


OK...so tell me...which is it...were they there or not?  Can't have it both ways...at least not without an explanation of the contradictions.

Now, do you see why I spend so much time doing this? :2brickwall:

I agree Lala's and to me this is huge.  We have been under the impression that the Dutch took the contents of the cage and investigated the pond.  Apparently this isn't correct.  That leaves only ALE, TES, or the FBI as far as I can see it.  Something has to be going on that we aren't aware of.  Who has all of this evidence?  ::MonkeyConfused::

Perhaps the trouble he was in at the moment he called for his dad was much bigger than sneaking out on a school nite.....

Ree,
These are translations of the document I believe you were referring too; they were posted later on the same page and on the next page.



http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=838.680
Posted by Leslie
Lively Case Discussion #582 2/10 - 2/15/2007
« Reply #685 on: February 14, 2007, 01:56:42 PM »

I "borrowed" a copy of the translation of the article from RU.  I am sure they won't mind:

arubagirl Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 9:32 pm   
 
Translation of Benvinda de Souza's letter to Karen Jansen

Letter from Benvinda de Souza to Karen Jansen, regarding the families actions when they first came to Aruba"

PAGE 1
Aruba, June 23 2005
Deliver
Strictly Confidential
Subject: Elizabeth Twitty – Holloway c.a. [I do not know what this acronym means] – wronged party [I’m just translating, I don’t know if this is the correct legal term in English]

Your Honor,

In the abovementioned matter, I inform you, partyly referring to your telephone conversation of today, the following.

As discussed before, it is the concern of the family of the now missing girl Miss Nathalee (sic) Holloway, to remain informed as good as possible under the circumstances about the criminal procedure which is taking place in relation to the disappearance. We have been hired as attorneys, to represent and support the family as the wronged party, but also to facilitate the information stream from the Justice Department and also to bring over the answers to the questions as good as possible and in the correct context.

The family is convinced that the investigation apparatus under the leadership of the Justice Department is hard at work to bring the case to a solution. However, at this moment the family has questions about the events that took place inmediately after the disappearance of Nathalee Holloway and if some people were interrogated, either as a witness or informant. The following is relevant to this.

Mr and Mrs. Twitty – Holloway received Monday, May 30th last, around 12 pm local time a the first message that their daughter was missing. After placing a few calls, it seemed that this message was really serious, because Nathalee was indeed nowhere to be found.     

Page 2

They inmediate arranged everything to come to Aruba as fast as possible and arrived in Aruba around 11pm Aruban time. At the airport the parents were met with mr. Alberto Groeneveld and Claudio Eldridge of Universal Aviation Aruba N.V. a ? company for private jets.

The parents departed inmediately to the Holiday Inn Hotel. They were awaited there by mr. Paul Lilly, one of the chaperones of the travelgroup of Nathalee and by mr. Eric Williams, and American ex-DEA agent and a friend of the family.

Because the parents had the feeling that something serious must have happened to Nathalee, they began the search themselves. From the two cousins of Nathalee who were with her in Aruba, a discription was received of Joran van der Sloot, since it was heard from others of Nathalee’s group that he was seen leaving with her from Carlos & Charlie’s, the previous night. Next the parents travelled to Carlos & Charlie’s, to get a view of the situation in the hopes of getting any useful information. This must have been around 1:30 am on May 31st. From Carlos & Charlie’s the group went to Valero Boulevard. There mr. Charles Croes presented himself, who introduced himself as a clairvoyant. They returned to the Holiday Inn. From the night manager cooperation was received to view the casino tapes, because Joran would have gambled there before. Indeed he was recognized on one of the tapes.

Information was also searched for along the beach. In the meantime mr. Alberto Groeneveld had received information that the silver car where Nathalee was last seen departing from Carlos & Charlie’s, had been spotted at a house in Montanja. After that the group went to the Noord police station, where two agents rode together with the group to the house in Montanja. This resulted to be the house of mr. Paul van der Sloot and his family. The silver car apparantly was not there anymore. After the police had looked around and attracted attention, indeed mr. Paul van der Sloot came outside. He was told the reason for this midnight visit, whereupon he let it be known that his son, Joran was not at home at the moment. He called his son, who according to him was in the Wyndham Casino. According to that information they departed with the two police officers and mr Paul van der Sloot to the Wyndham. When arrived there, Joran was not to be found. It had been witnessed that mr. Van Der Sloot had a conversation on his cellular phone, that was could not be understood. When Joran was not to be found his father called him again and he seemed to be at home. According to him he went home because there was police at his house. The personnel of the casino informed, after he was shown a picture of Nathalee, Nathalee was seen just before in the casino. Afterwards the group went again to the house of mr. Van Der Sloot. When arrived there the silver car appeared to be there. The door at the driver’s side was open.

Joran approached the group, with Deepak Kalpoe at his side, and began talking to the police officer. Seeing the clothes that he had on at that moment, it did not appear that he had just before been in a casino. Afterwards Joran wanted to approach mrs. Holloway, but interestingly enough . . .   
 
 mr. Van Der Sloot informed him several times that he did not have to or should say anything, even that he should shut his mouth. Deepak also said that Joran shouldn’t say anything. According to Joran, he wanted to talk because he wanted to help find Nathalee. This last took place in front of the police officers, together with mr. Charles Croes, Alberto Groeneveld and his colleague Claudio Eldridge. Then, in any case, Joran began to tell that he that he indeed left Carlos & Charlie’s together with the brothers Kalpoe and Nathalee the night before. They had supposedly gone to the lighthouse on the western side of Aruba, and dropped Nathalee around 2:00 am at the Holiday Inn. Also understood by Claudio is that mr. Van Der Sloot said that he picked up Joran around 4:00 am close to McDonald’s. Afterwards Joran told what kind of sexual acts he did with Nathalee. The family noticed that Joran behaved in an arrogant and challenging way.

The previously named actions took place between 11pm on May 30th 2005 and 4 am the following morning.

What comes next is the questions that the family wanted answers to: (loosely translated)

1) Has Mr. Groeneveld been interrogated about the times

2) Has Mr. Eldridge been interrogated

3) Why hasn’t Jug Twitty been interrogated

4) Did the police notice that the clothes were unsuitable for somebody who had just been in the casino?

5) Has it been confirmed that Joran has been in the casino? This because a personnel of the casino had mentioned that he had seen Nathalee

6) Has Charles Croes been interrogated?

7) Is it true that Mr. Kalpoe owns a ‘koei’ [?! Maybe they mean a ‘kooi’, which is a cage?!]

 Has it been established that Joran told his father in the presence of the grou that he was first in the Wyndham and then in the Raddisson and afterwards he went home?

9) Has there been any forensic evidence and if so, where?

10) What does the Justice Department base their reasonable suspicion on, other than statements of the suspects?

11) Are there other people that are considered suspects or is the Justice Department only focusing on these suspects?

12) It seems that Joran’s Headmaster said to Jug Twitty that Joran said that Nathalee had drowned . Have these people been interrogated/

The last request is to inform the family when searches are going on, so that they can prepare themselves in case something is found.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=838.680

Posted by Klaas:
 Lively Case Discussion #582 2/10 - 2/15/2007
« Reply #688 on: February 14, 2007, 02:03:58 PM »


Leslie - too funny.  I just created a thread for the same translated article by Arubagirl.

Pages 3 and 4

… mr. Van Der Sloot informed him several times that he did not have to or should say anything, even that he should shut his mouth. Deepak also said that Joran shouldn’t say anything. According to Joran, he wanted to talk because he wanted to help find Nathalee. This last took place in front of the police officers, together with mr. Charles Croes, Alberto Groeneveld and his colleague Claudio Eldridge. Then, in any case, Joran began to tell that he that he indeed left Carlos & Charlie’s together with the brothers Kalpoe and Nathalee the night before. They had supposedly gone to the lighthouse on the western side of Aruba, and dropped Nathalee around 2:00 am at the Holiday Inn. Also understood by Claudio is that mr. Van Der Sloot said that he picked up Joran around 4:00 am close to McDonald’s. Afterwards Joran told what kind of sexual acts he did with Nathalee. The family noticed that Joran behaved in an arrogant and challenging way.


 
 
 

I agree about the larger boat, if it was in fact used - like the Tattoo perhaps. The one SCroes worked on; the one that immediately went up for sale just after Natalee went missing....

Also remember the St. John fires on Aruba and codetalker references to 'light the fire'. While I'm not sure about burning, the smoke on the streets would make a good cover for anybody to move something...

Sander saying in his PV that he'd put his hand 'in the fire' for Joran.  And codetalker said "such special boys [GOTTENBOS] won't burn their fingers"...
 

I should have read my previous post completely before posting it.  The last paragraph had been included in Leslie's post right before the numbered items.

Sorry about that!   :oops:

(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b258/texasmom55/PVDS/Diario02142007.jpg)

(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b258/texasmom55/PVDS/02142007Igsigs.jpg)

(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b258/texasmom55/PVDS/0214200402.jpg)

I went to find this post...I have it an will try to get it over here otherwise maybe a mod with the power can do it for us...but that seems to be going back to the family hearing the 4 AM time from Paulus....I think it's Claudio, one of the Universal Air employees that were what Beth called "handlers" making the statement that it was overheard as Paulus saying he picked "them" up at 4AM at the McDonalds.  How do we know Paulus was speaking the truth...if he was actually seen at 3 AM what is there to think he was telling the truth about 4 AM...maybe he said it in order to throw everyone off as to the 3 AM time that he was REALLY out and about and not asleep as he had said.....remember...."who answered your phone at 2 in the morning" from Simian.

Wow... lots to take in.  The more I read the more confused I become.   ::MonkeyConfused::

One thought that hit me.... regarding the FBI saying the fabric was tested and did not match Natalee's top.... maybe that's because the fabric they had was DENIM and is a match for the skirt?  I pray that the reason that the story changed is because a decision was made to give the evidence to the FBI and to leave Aruba instead of playing any more games with ALE....

Please God... justice for Natalee.

OK I can't do it...help!!!  Klaas!!!  Help! Here is the part and the link but I can't make it work for me.

klaasend
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Lively Case Discussion #582 2/10 - 2/15/2007
« Reply #675 on: February 14, 2007, 01:29:40 PM »
   
Quote from: "msmarple"
klaas - Am I too excited about this Claudio thing? Or am I missing something?

If I understand correctly, of the 10+ witnesses in the driveway, at least one person FROM ARUBA heard what Beth says she heard.

Do we know where Claudio is now?


In Vinda deSouza's letter included in Joe T.'s NY case filings - page 3 of the letter, page 117 of Joe T. doc http://www.xs4all.nl/~dugo/doc3.pdf :

As I understand this...the 4 AM was due to what Paulus said and nothing more.  So why did he say 4 AM?  No way he was going to give them anything that night...he was on guard from the moment they step on his property...he said 4 AM for a reason...especially since he knew already that Natalee was dead.  There was not witness that actually saw him...just the fact that they actually took Beth at her word or rather Claudio at his word, that Paulus said 4 AM.  Hmmmmm.  That means one thing...either it was all they could find as a reason for denial of compensation or it is the truth.

Hi Caps.  How to explain this statement by OE also.  Contradicts the other post:

 Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #752 5-15-08  on: May 16, 2008, 08:59:01 AM

I'll try to clarify a few points. Nice pics by the way.
- The pond was searched because of a promising lead we received.
- We were able to conduct the scanning sonar (not to be confused with side scan sonar) search of the pond because of some weather related down time during the ocean search.
- My analysis of the sonar was used to 1) show that the pond needed to be drained in opposed to be investigated with divers.  The only way to effectively search the pond would be if it were dry. 2) show that there were objects in the pond aside from tires.  I'm not commenting on what these objects could be because I'm not speculating.  I will say that I at least saw tires (I saw a pic of one somewhere) in the scanning sonar.
- The reason the pond search was so delayed was on account of the labor strike.  The pond needed to be completely drained which needed the help of the Polis and fire department.  Needless to say labor was needed and hard to come by.  When the strike ended the pond search happened almost immediately.
- No one said the 40-52 (whatever) investigators from Holland ever stepped foot in or near the pond.  The timing is coincident.  Did anyone see these investigators anywhere near the pond?  I don't think so.     

I hope that cleared up more questions that it raises.

Caps
Who do you think drained the pond?  Do you have any idea?

Kermit - why weren't Tim Miller and Tim Trahan on board the Persistence at such an important moment on January 7th?  Tim was 99% sure just seven days before that.  Did someone invesitgate the contents of the trap between December 30th and January 7th that we don't know about?

I posted the translation of the letter above this post.

Thanks.  I saw that after I screamed for help. LOL

CAPS
Who drained the pond?  Do you know?  We can't figure it out...we need your help here.

Julia Renfro said that she and Mark Purcell climbed under the barrier and
ignored the No Trespessing signs and walked all through the pond and saw
nothing but shoes, tires and whiskey bottles.

Maybe Renfro got it wrong.  Maybe she and Mark drank all of the whiskey in the bottles, and then ignored the trespassing signs but were too drunk to see anything. ::MonkeyWink::

Did the Monkeys ever get an answer to the analysis of the material found in the cage by the Persistence, but removed and secured by the Arubans? In Particular, the material that appeared to be blue denim?
scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2979.220
(http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/9117/datelinediversfromarubasb2.jpg)

I think you hit the nail on the head, Klaas!

It's only just begun baby!

No I said, that looks like a shoe in the cage!

Jan. 7th - "Neither Tim Miller, Tim Trahan, or Dateline were on board during this time."
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2705.720

FBI provided them.
 ::MonkeyCool::

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/Blondeonahd/The%20Search/trap_model_fishhuts.jpg)
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?t...1839#msg361839

Did the Monkeys ever get an answer to the analysis of the material found in the cage by the Persistence, but removed and secured by the Arubans? In Particular, the material that appeared to be blue denim?
scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2979.220
(http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/9117/datelinediversfromarubasb2.jpg)

Another thought Kermie...

Why would a single tennis shoe be in a fish trap off the Aruban coast with the skeletal remains of a body?  Why the shoe?  If the shoe was lost, it was lost.  Nobody would put a single shoe with a corpse in a fish cage......  unless it was all planted there intentionally.
I think it was Bath who reported that the mate to the missing shoe was found in a closet at the Sloot home.  If the perps did still have the shoe, they would have destroyed it and not put it in a fish trap.  Also, the blue fabric that was found in the trap didn't match Natalee's clothing, nor did DNA found.  Why similar blue fabric?  Was that entire fish trap and it's contents a sham that was possibly setup to embarrass TES?  Was someone else's body put in that trap?  Is Jalitza Wever in that trap and Natalee in Jalitza's crypt?

Kermit
This is how I understand it as told to me by a very reliable source.

Kyle sent the photos to the FBI...
FBI sent them to family and was posted by Robin.
Kyle did not give anything to FBI...shoe or fabric or anything.
If anything was given to FBI it came from someone other than Kyle.
Kyle was blamed for leaking info and ultimately he was much more careful after that.
ALE and dive team obtained the crab trap and did not share it's contents with anyone. 

If any of this is incorrect please correct my errors.  Thanks Froggy! ::MonkeyWink::

They already recovered the trap (or processed the site) and don't want us to know for whatever reason, good or otherwise.
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2705.740

Human remains were found,

And will we ever know for sure? 

Now who said that?  Where is that written as fact that human remains were found?  I know this answer, but others may not.  Please elaborate.

I concur with everything except number uno and number six.
Look at the picture I posted of the dive team.

scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2705.700

So who sent the photos to the FBI?  I know that is who sent them to the family.

Your tennis shoe inside the cage with the body would insure you would not point a finger at me.
Afterall, the evidence with the dead body disposed of is yours.

OOPS!  I forgot...didn't Kyle tell us that ALE recovered the trap and he has no idea what happened to it after that?  Hmmm.  I thought I read that...somewhere here.  Oh well...guess not.

I believe the truth will be exposed.

OK someone explain this to me...

There is a shoe in the closet....a shoe in the trap....a shoe in the pond....I don't know but my math is not that bad that I can't see three shoes in this scenario. 

On the 11th and 12th, I noticed the Dutch coast guard vessel at or VERY near the trap site.

The vessel was on that spot for 42 minutes that day and about the same duration the next day

-When I returned to the Persistence (14-Jan) there were no more talks about a trap recovery. When I pressed the issue, I was told "they're no longer interested in the trap or it's recovery".

Kermie
I certainly am waiting for that truth as well as justice for the family.  That will be a good day for everyone...except maybe the Sloots.

Kermit - the answer to your question is, NO.  We never did get any information about the denim that was found in the trap.


I also recall reading somewhere that it was Jossy's son with a group of other divers who examined the contents of the fish cage.  Is it possible that ALE weren't the ones who took the contents of the cage?  Does Jossy have the contents of the cage?

Did the Monkeys ever get an answer to the analysis of the material found in the cage by the Persistence, but removed and secured by the Arubans? In Particular, the material that appeared to be blue denim?
scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2979.220
(http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/9117/datelinediversfromarubasb2.jpg)

Naw, I think if Jossy knew anything he would expose it.
Look....................> who is in charge of the investigation

roflmfao, now there is a pair of witnesses that i wouldn't believe if they swore on a l0 ft. high stack of bibles, and their mother's graves.
dennisintn

Mos is in charge of the ALE part.  Silvetti and Tim Miller were in charge of the Persistence.
Who are the people in the photograph of the divers?  Does anyone recognize them?

So Tim Miller and John Silvetti are the ones that made arrangements for Caps witness to come to the USA and take the polygraph.  Mos was a bit upset.  Why am I not surprised?

Peter R. de Vries won his Emmy Award.
he received the award together with Beth.
they dedicated the award to Natalee.

http://www.ad.nl/binnenland/2635695/Peter_R_de_Vries_wint_Emmy_Award.html

There are two other witnesses that saw something that night too...and they may bring them over for polygraphs also.  Mos told Tim that they do not accept any results of polygraphs...that sounds like that idea is dead in the water for now.

The Persistence flew in a crew of divers and Kyle liked the ALE divers.
Reckon Peter R. DeVries hired his own divers.

TIM MILLER - WE AREN'T GOING TO LET UP - WE'RE GOING TO KEEP TAKING THE TRUTH TO THEM!

Tim isn't going to give up!  Listen up Aruba!! 

my audio is all jumbled up!!

Thanks caesu!    ::MonkeyCool::

EXCELLENT SHOW DANA!  

Clear again for Red!

WOW great news!

 ::MonkeyDance::  ::cartwheel:: ::MonkeyDance:: ::cartwheel:: ::MonkeyDance:: ::cartwheel:: ::MonkeyDance::

http://www.ad.nl/binnenland/2635695/Peter_R_de_Vries_wint_Emmy_Award.html

Peter R. de Vries wins Emmy Award

NEW YORK - The broadcast of crime reporter Peter R. de Vries about the disappearance of American schoolchildren Natalee Holloway in Aruba has won an Emmy Award. The report was nominated in the category Current Affairs (news) of this international television award.

De Vries was in seventh heaven with the distinction. ,, This is the price of prices. This win only once in your life. Here I would like all my other prizes for surrender.''The program maker said the Emmy a nice reward for hard work in the broadcast was stabbed.

De Vries took the prize with Beth Holloway, Natalee's mother. The pair contributed to the price on the girl disappeared.
The show was over seven million viewers not only the Netherlands in its grip, but went all over the world. Especially in the United States, there was much interest in how the infiltrator of De Vries and Patrick van der river Eem, succeeded in Joran van der Sloot statements about his role in the disappearance of Natalee to utter.

Oh wow, is right!!  :cry:

(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b258/texasmom55/PVDS/Robots0214200706.jpg)

Seems appropriate.... ::MonkeyHaHa::  Miss ya Robots!

OK,

- We now know that the Dutch did not examine the pond - ALE did it at night.  They have whatever was found.  ALE must have had good reason why they didn't want anyone else looking at that pond.
- There was a body found in the trap with clothing/fabric - ALE has it, and they released a piece of fabric to the FBI that was useless.
- Who was in the trap - Natalee or Jalitza or someone completely unrelated?  Is Natalee in the Masonic crypt or is she in an ALE forensic drawer after being recovered from the trap?
- Jossy says that he has a shoe.  Did it come from the trap or the pond?
- Peter DeVries just won an Emmy for a documentary that is probably fiction.
- Witnesses have come forward, but ALE has disregarded their polygraphs.
- This case becomes more bizarre as the months go by. 
-  ALE is desperate.  Their coverup is now a coverup for a coverup and it's out of control.

But CAPS and Kermit have both given hope that big things are coming.
I have faith in both of them.

Whether or not anything Joran said in the DeVries tapes was true or not remains to be seen.  Watch every other recording of Joran Van der Sloot that has been aired since Natalee's disappearance.  The only two that you ever see the REAL side of that monster both involved Peter DeVries either in the viewing or behind the scenes.  Without Peter the world would have never seen the true evil that dwells in that being.  My hope is that Peter's efforts have also given the father a few sleepless nights. 

I'm very proud of his receiving the award, he deserves it!  JMO

 

And RED said big things are coming in "in the next months and YEARS!

Me too!   ::MonkeyCool::

In fact, Red stated that he is privy to things coming that he is not at liberty to discuss.  ::MonkeyDance::

AWWW I hope it isn't years.   ::MonkeyNoNo::

But CAPS and Kermit have both given hope that big things are coming.
I have faith in both of them.
[/quote]
And RED said big things are coming in "in the next months and YEARS!
[/quote]

I have been playing catch up today... Nothing even surprises me anymore.. but I have to have faith that something will big will be coming....
How is everyone tonight?

TM - I'm glad he won the award. also.  It brings the case into world view once again.  It's just bizarre because we know that the documentary itself isn't accurate.

 ::MonkeyDance:: Sounds good to me!

Well, with that being said... lets hope it is not years.....  ::MonkeyWink::

When he mentioned "years" -- he was referring to the fact that Aruba is NEVER going to get away from our scrutiny. He wasn't saying that we were years away from results!

That is true... they never have and never will...

Thank goodness!  ::MonkeyCool::

Well.. good night everyone... I will be back in the cage soon.. Have a great one...
prayers for Natalee....

RED (from caylee thread):

Goodnight  :smt015 Great to see you again.  Hurry back!

I like the near future part.

Good Night everyone.

The peaople that came from holland to do the investigation was on a run of the other possible areas that they might have gone. and where on these 4 wheelers used by the Polis Department. The ALE who provided the info was with them and his job was to show them arround.

The pond had tires, fridge and bottles alot of debries in it. When the water was left to the center, I wnet to see it but could not walk on the moth since is was still sticking to shoes end was very soft. there where a lot of debries but one can not just walk to the center where there was still water.

When It dried up, I called John and let him know that it is all dried up and that that he need to come down to see it for himslef and he did come doen but left in 2 days.

Then came the investigators from Hollands and after that, Mos give order to clean it up.

I wne to to look at it and to my surprise it was cleand but one can see also that they replaced some area with fresh sands. The are in question is near the 2 black large tubes.

when you examine the whone pond, it is in these dry clay formations like a tiles but one can see the areas that was distrubed. Otherthing, where is the debries that was in there dumped, nobody know.

The excuese was it needed to be cleaan in prepartion for the huracain season, I check all the others that where also dried up but was never cleaned.

so that sums it up

I never met with him. He did met with the Withness.

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/1991664/___Joran_en_vader_spannen_samen___.html

Thanks J45!  The report of this new witness has hit the news in the Netherlands!

"Joran and father efforts together '
by John van den Heuvel and Bert Houses

A new and potentially important witness in the case of Natalee Holloway in the U.S. has declared that he father, Paul van der Sloot and son Joran during the night of the disappearance under suspicious circumstances together saw. The public prosecutor in Aruba wants the declaration as soon as possible to involve the investigation.

The statement is contrary to that of the father and son, who claim that night that they have had no contact. According to prosecutor Hans Mos is the statement in March this year made. "The man was heard by a private investigation. It is he more subject to a polygraph test, a lie detector."

The witness saw on the evening of disappearance a young man walking past his house. It struck him that he wore a shoe and a shirt was muddy. Then passed a red road, with a man of middle age. He recognized them as Paul and Joran van der Sloot.

Lake

Both came from the direction of the hotel where Natalee Holloway disappeared. The pair would then have gone to a lake, Montserrat Pont. This lake was previously investigated by police for possible traces. Although it was searched with sonar, no trace of a human body.

Mos: "These things witness has stated that he was not raised. Also a number of things contrary to a previous reading in front of the police. I got the statement in its entirety called but so far I have not received it yet . " According to the witness he would police and the judiciary is not fully informed, because he seriously doubted whether they want to solve the case. The lie detector test with nevertheless pointed out that the witness is telling the truth, if confirmed Mos. "He has voluntarily cooperated with, so I understand."

"The statement is not proof that the case is about," said the officer. "But we want him happy, especially because there are other things to be said than the witness has told the police. The private detectives were hired by the father of Natalee. I would get the declaration, but at the last consultations were we anyway. "

Conclusion

Justice wants to end this year the investigation into the disappearance for the second time finish. Last year that happened, but the case was reopened after Peter R. de Vries in his crime program with pictures came from an undercover operation in which Joran van der Sloot her body known to have dumped into the sea. These statements appear to be not legally valid as evidence.

According to the new witness would be the body of the American girl suspected of having been hidden in the lake on the island. Joran van der Sloot, who is studying in the Netherlands had resumed since the broadcast fled to Asia. Father Paul van der Sloot wanted last night not comment on the story of the witness.

excerpt from october 2008 Vanity Fair article
re the arrest of  Raffaello Follieri
(actress Anne Hathaway's former boyfriend)
on fraud/money laundering charges:

... The Yucaipa suit crippled the joint venture. It also killed the foundation ... and it left Follieri scrambling for new investors before the whole house of cards collapsed.

Now, in search of a white knight, Follieri turned to Joe Tacopina, a well-known criminal-defense lawyer who counted ex-New York police commissioner Bernie Kerik among his clients. (This was in the halycon days before Tacopina chose to testify about Kerik to prosecutors.) Tacopina mentioned to Kerik that he had a new client, Follieri, who was in need of an investment partner with $100 million to spare. Kerik found one: Plainfield Asset Management, a hedge-fund sponsor in Greenwich, Connecticut.

The initial plan was for the two men - Kerik and Tacopina - to share a finder's fee of $1.5 million from Follieri, and perhaps split an additional fee from Plainfield. But those plans soon went awry. On October 5, 2007, Tacopina signed an agreement with the Follieri Group to receive $2.5 million as a finder's fee for himself alone. Correspondence provided to Vanity Fair shows Kerik was in the dark about the terms of the deal for weeks afterward, asking Tacopina - his lawyer, after all - not to let Follieri double-cross him by denying him his half of the finder's fee.

Like a lot of successful criminal-defense lawyers, Tacopina has a tough-guy charm that works on nearly everyone - particularly tabloid reporters. One of the reasons he was hired was to help spin the story of the Burkle lawsuit so it didn't splatter too much mud on Follieri. The two italians formed an instant bond, and soon Follieri was sending him business ideas, just as he'd done with Doug Band. One was to buy the AS Roma soccer team, in Italy. According to one former Follieri Group insider, someone in Follieri's family knew the family that owned the team, and hoped Tacopina could find investors. But, says the insider, Follieri soon felt that Tacopina was going behind his back to deal with the owners himself. Tacopina's version is that he had the contacts to do the deal and that Follieri was working against him. Either way, the two men soon had a falling-out.

For Follieri, such fallings-out had consequences. His arrogance as a boss had alienated a number of staffers. Now three of them decamped - to rent office space from Tacopina and start a competing real-estate firm to buy Catholic Church properties.

... Monday, June 23, less than 24 hours before Follieri's arrest, an intriguing conversation occurred between Tacopina and a lawyer named Alan Friedman, hired by Plainfield to help settle Follieri's debts so the new Plainfield-Follieri joint venture could get underway. For months, Tacopina had been pushing for his finder's fee. Friedman had already pointed out to him that because Plainfield had committed only a small fraction of the $100 million, the finder's fee - if Tacopina was owed one at all - should be a lot smaller than the one he had in mind. Friedman proposed $500,000 up front, and $500,000 in six months, according to a source close to the negotiations. Tacopina, says Friedman, rejected the deal. Tacopina's version is that he told Friedman to forget it - forget the whole thing. "I'm legally entitled to it," Tacopina allegedly said. "But forget it."

That's not Friedman's recollection: he recalls that Tacopina wanted the whole finder's free upfront. After all, Tacopina told Friedman, "How do we know he's even going to be around in a few months?"

 :roll:

@Klaasend

The Kalpoe brothers nor Paulus van der Sloot were involved in the killing of Natalee Holloway and the disposing of her body.
The lying story of this 'new' witness is made to frame Paulus again.
Even an 'Emmy' award for another lying story.

Horror and laughter here.

Lala's:

the late-night/middle-of-the-night ATM info
came from Geraldo

one night in june 2005 he mentioned four things
he'd been told "right over there" ...
gesturing over his shoulder to a nearby streetcorner:

the underage-girl gang bang video
that JvdS drove one of the more tricked-out cars on the eiland
that JvdS had lines of credit in the casinos
the ATM withdrawals

Geraldo left the eiland quite soon thereafter
and the mis-informers chattered that he'd gone too far
w/ his usual far-out reporting this time
and had been pulled off Fox's coverage of the case

but in reality he left to take pre-arranged time off:
a yachting race followed by paternity leave

2005 Merion-Bermuda Cruising Yacht Race
24-Jun-05

Yacht: VOYAGER
Captain: Geraldo Rivera
Design: S&S 70 Custom
Rig: Ketch
Class: A
http://www.marionbermuda.com/documents/MBRClass.pdf

Geraldo Rivera and Erica Levy welcomed daughter Solita Liliana August 2005
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0729273/bio

the video/lines of credit info was later proven correct ...
and surely JvdS drove (Deepak's car) as well,
whether or not he was of legal driving age/was licensed

which leaves only the ATM info "unproven" ...
so Geraldo was 4 for 4/batting 1000

 :wink: