Natalee Case Discussion #817 4/22/09 - 4/30/09

[Lifesong]

Good Morning!


I agree, 2NJ...Interesting!


    


On we go...

[2NJSons_Mom]

Lifesong,

I didnt have much luck researching Kermit's question yesterday.  Wondering if you or Hotping had any results.  I found that Geotech is used by many different companies in their business name, and had to readjust my parameters several times. 

[Rob]

Let's take this thing with Carlos Ramos just a step further. And thanks to Buckshot for the reply.

I'll put it together - you show me where I'm wrong and Ramos where told the truth. Remember - without Ramos - Natalee is in a trap off Arashi.

Here we go!! Let's Roll!

CARLOS RAMOS - PART 1 of 5 7/26/2005 BACKGROUND TO DECLARATION. PART ONE

On Tuesday, July 26, 2005 around 17:30, I, KELLY showed, at the police force guard North, to the witness C.A. PENATA RAMOS, the seized gray Honda Civic belonging to the suspect D.S. KALPOE.

The car became of interest in the search of the missing girl Natalee Holloway and was intentionally seized.
 

RAMOS STATEMENT

I recognize the car which you now show me as the car in which I had seen the three boys on the night of Monday. It is the car in which I had spoken in my declaration.

W.n.g.C.A. PENATA RAMOS

After I, KELLY, read the declaration of the witness to him in Spanish, he explained that he would not sign it.

He explained that he will grant no further collaboration to the police force.

Of which by me, KELLY, on oath of office made up this warrant which has been closed and has been signed at Bubali on 26 July 2005.

Ok, this alone is the first very troubling sign. Actually there are two very troubling signs in the opening statement.
 1. He comes forward with info and then won't sign the statement.
   A. Possibly not statement he made.
   B. Statement has minor alterations.
   C. Last sentence clearly says - and has been signed[/u] at Bubali[/b]. Signed by Kelly I assume, but not Ramos.
 2. This all takes place at the Bubali Polis station.
   A. Bubali is where Jacobs worked.
   B. Beth was railroaded at that station multiple times.
   C. Deepak's Honda outside Bubali before arrests.
   D Theodore van Loon outside station in yellow jeep carrying trailer and large barrel - reference Beth's book.
   
EXTREMELY INTERESTING SIDE NOTE FROM SAME DECLARATION.

He explained that he will grant no further collaboration to the police force.

He came forward voluntarily but yet wants no more further collaboration with the polis. HUH? As if you open your mouth and then are exempt from testimony?

August 3, 2005, at around 17.30 EIGHT DAYS LATER. PART TWO

On August 3, 2005, at around 17.30, I, CROES, had called the witness C.A. PENATA RAMOS on its mobile tel., number xxx-xxxx. I had shared with the witness that we need him the next day at around 09.30 that it was necessary concerning further settlement of the procedure in this matter[/COLOR]. The witness had told me, CROES, to call him around 20.00 because he had to ask for permission from his employer. According to the witness he had to work the next day in the morning hours. Around 20.30 the under inspector first class R.R. TROMP, called the witness C.A. PENATA RAMOS on its mobile telephone. The witness did not take the call.

Of which has been closed by me, CROES, on oath of office made up and this warrant and has been signed at North on August 3, 2005.

Signed,

L.A.G. CROES

Actually I can't blame the polis here. They did what they were supposed to do for once. Which makes me wonder if they knew he wouldn't cooperate. Remember, a witness who lies goes to jail. I think Ramos found that out in the preceding eight days.

Ramos does not take the call. Mr. Ramos KNOWS THE POLIS WILL CALL. He's already given one statement he HAS REFUSED TO SIGN. Interesting that Mr. Croes does not indicate if Mr. Ramos returned the call. I assume he was not collaborating with the polis further. This appears to be the only instance where the polis are fully engaged and the witness is non-collaborating. Show me another, please.

col⋅lab⋅o⋅rate
   /kəˈlæbəˌreɪt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [kuh-lab-uh-reyt] Show IPA
–verb (used without object), -rat⋅ed, -rat⋅ing.
1.    to work, one with another; cooperate, as on a literary work: They collaborated on a novel.
2.    to cooperate, usually willingly, with an enemy nation, esp. with an enemy occupying one's country: He collaborated with the Nazis during World War II.

Possible the statement was indeed altered and Mr. Ramos didn't like what it said or it was all fabrication and Mr. Ramos wanted no parts of that. It's a KNOWN fact THAT the polis altered Beth's statement and didn't take Jug's for two weeks.
I interpret the no further collaboration to the police force - to mean not cooperate - but he will not work with them to place someone where they were not.

Court Order to Appear 08/09/2005 PART THREE

The judge-commissar charged with the judicial preliminary analysis at the First Court of Aruba:

The judge-commissar, given the warrants dated August 3, 2005 in the criminal matter against Joran Andreas Petrus van der Sloot, Deepak Sharma Kalpoe and Satish Sharma Kalpoe.

Carlos Alberto Penata Ramos,

born in Columbia on February 25, 1979 and residing at L.G.Smith boulevard xxxxxx in Aruba,

if witness under and in presence of the council man wants hearing on Thursday, August 4, 2005 at 10.00;

Considering the fact that the witness has not been found at home and that the house owner resident refused take the rebelling on behalf of him in reception: (?)

Considering the fact that witness on aforementioned date has not appeared;

HAS:

ordered that the witness Carlos Alberto Penata Ramos, born in Columbia on February 25, 1979 and residing at L.G. Smith xxxxxxxxxx in Aruba, must appear Thursday, August 11, 2005 summoned at 09.30 to be present in the Courthouse at Aruba and ordered in addition that he will be brought for the judge by the bailiff or servant of the public power.

This arrangement has been thus given on August 9, 2005, by Mr. H.A.C. Smid, judge-commissar and on behalf of these by Mr. J.S. Kulperdal, signed, in the presence of the clerk.

for duplicate,

the clerk.

So much to say here, but the statement speaks for itself. One item of extreme importance.
Bases on the warrant issued on August 3rd (remember this is Court Order to Appear 08/09/2005) and derived on the same day he didn't answer his phone. So - wtf?

Court Hearing 8/15/2005 PART FOUR AND FOUR DAYS LATER.
FROM THE FIRST COURT OF ARUBA
OPENING STATEMENT SNIPPED AND FOUND HERE > http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=271.0

1.   Can you remind yourself the declaration, which you have taken off 22 July 2005 on around 19.25 compared with the police force? Yes

The 22nd of July? where is that declaration? I only see July 26th as the opening date.

2.   Have you then spoken the truth? I have explained what I have seen.

Remember he wanted no further collaboration with the polis. Now he claims to have explained what he has seen.
3.   The witness is asked to make a situation drawing (make production 1). The witness gives to where the car of suspect stood and the route he took.
Who knows what this really entails. WE will never know.

4.   Did you see the face of the driver when you went past? Yes.

Doubtful. At 2:30-3am?

5.   Did you recognize him with a photograph confrontation? Yes, on the day that I gave a declaration at the police force they left me a photograph see from an illustrated magazine. That is the only photograph that they showed me.[/color?

Huh? Remember this happened at cover-up central - Bubali.
From a illustrated magazine? What does that mean? Doesn't sound good.
Only one photo? That makes no sense. These are FBI trained polis?
Maybe a book is in order - Polis work for Dummies and how to ignore everything the FBI taught you. By Gerold Dompig.

6.   Did you recognize the faces of the other persons in the car? Yes, the face of the person who sat beside the driver.  When I came past I saw, in the light of my car, that the person beside the driver had his head and face covered with his hands. I have recognized that person from his illustration (photo)[/color]. You ask me how I recognized the driver who sat beside the man who screened its face? I have seen him in the light of my "in the light of" (van). He moved himself a bit to the back.

It's all pretty clear here. Hands cover face (and this is a saving grace move on the part of Ramos in case he is wrong).

7. You have also recognized Deepak Kalpoe? yes, on the same photograph which the police force showed me.

Another photo? That's not listed. Ramos claims he saw one photo. It is Joran or Deepak? Or the CnC pic of all of them together?

The witness is shown 3 photos (productions no 2., 3, and 4).
He is asked to designate the persons, who are involved in this matter.
Production no.2 on this wise the witness photograph no 6 to, the driver of the car.
Production no.3. The witness designates to photograph no 6 and tells that this person in the back of seat. After the witness shows no doubt left that this is the person in the seat.
Production no.4. The witness recognizes nobody from the photograph. On the questions of Mr. De Bie, Council man of the suspect J. van der Sloot, the witness answers as follows:

Just a giant mess. Who know what happened here.

LET'S LOOK CLOSELY AT THIS

I looked and saw that on my watch it was at 02:30. For 03.00 I was at my work. I’m not sure exactly how precise it is. When I encountered the car in question, it was on that dirt road. I had slowed down to drive past there. The lights of my car "from" shining on that car. The person beside the driver, kept its hand for its head and face. I saw that the driver slid a bit to the back. You asks me how I interrogate myself on this have prepared. I have been nervous. I have "stress" of the matter. This is the first time that something like this has happened to me. I was on holiday. You ask me why I did not appear the previous time. There are persons, who put pressure on me to talk. I have discussed the matter with my boss. I had discussed my holiday and knew of the rebellion. I have been placed under pressure by someone from Bubali, two inspectors and another man. They wanted that I come and give a statement. The second time I wasn’t here. When I drove along the car, it was dark that evening. By the lights of my "of" the car it was entirely lighted. The lights did not reflect in the car. You ask me why I have waited with giving my statement. Two guards have been apprehended firstly, who were innocent. The person who worked on the tattoo also knew of nothing. Days after the photograph appeared in Diario, I told some of it to my boss.

OK, there it IS. Right there in front of everyone's face.
1. There are persons, who put pressure on me to talk. I have been placed under pressure by someone from Bubali, two inspectors and another man.
That really says all we need to know. How that got in there is anyone's idea. I would think that would be redacted, but it could be left to make the reader come to the conclusion that Ramos was telling the truth and was coerced when none existed.

Because of the attention that the matter got, my boss said that I should wait as I have almost lost my job.

Huh, a Mansur threatens job loss? And why should he have waited? Waited for what?

D. Kalpoe suspect on the questions of Mr. R. Oomen, Council man of, asked the witness as follows:

I look after the maintenance to the house, the hunting and ranch of Eric Mansur. I do this already 6 years. I deserve the minimum wage of afl. 1.250. live = I reside at L.G. Smith boulevard xxxxxx. The house is of Eric Mansur. In the time then the police force looked for me I was fishing. [/b]I was with my boss[/b]. There were also still 5 others with us. We have fished in Bonaire and Curacao. Up to and including yesterday I was on the boat. By having to come here my holiday has been spoiled. You ask me if I knew that the police force wanted me.  After I returned I learned they wanted me. It was Saturday and a week had passed.  I had left around August 6th.  Nobody had told me that I had come as a witness.  YOU ask me how long for my departure I was called.  I think that that was Thursday.  The first questions took place in Bubali.  Present was one Luis and 2 police constables.  The night

ok, so much to say here, but you have the idea. He didn't KNOW he was gonna be a witness? Where did he get that idea? He made a declaration, HE KNEW. And Eric Mansur owns the house he lives in. I wonder if this is the same Mansur that wanted everyone down at the dump and even supplied the bulldozer when the polis and Aruban Authorities claim they had no working equipment? Why did a witness come forward with the white truck and the half naked girl and Junior the crackhead keep everyone at the dump for weeks? Why did someone want everyone away from Arashi where the suspects place themselves? And Mansurs are all over this. One pretends to be a family supporter and others keep the focus else where.

I have seen the car in the morning of 30 May of Sunday on Monday. I went to Lorena on Monday night, then I went to work, told that I saw a car standing along the way when I drove along there. I cannot remember on which day I saw the photograph of the persons in the newspaper. The photograph, which the police force showed me, is the same photograph as the photograph that appeared in the Diario. You ask me how can I know or recognize the persons from the photograph in the newspaper or that I had seen that night. The first time then I saw the photograph in the Diario I had been astonished and I said that to colleagues. You represent me that I have explained that I have recognized the persons from their construction and mail hour. You ask me if I could see from my position in the car. My position was a bit is higher, in the turning I had drive concerning a sand hill as a result of which my position was a bit slanted. As a result, I could look at in the car. I have recognized the car from the rims. Also to the color and the transparent squares. You ask me if I can designate the persons, which sat in the car. Yes.

More Mansurs just subtly included here to add credibility.

Observation: the indication of these persons in the Council chamber does not take place. The councel Oomen and Zeppenfeldt make to objection against this since three the some in the Council chamber are which qualify to are designated, suspect.

On closer questions of Mr. De Bie, the witness answers as follows: I have not heard from   Eric Mansur nor from anyone else anything concerning the father of Joran van der Sloot.

On closer questions of Mr. Oomen, the witness answers: The police force has shown only a gray car to me.

Read persisted in Spanish, and signed.

CARLOS PENATA RAMOS

WHY HAS NO ONE HEARD FROM ERIC MANSUR? - just sayin'

The public prosecutor requests once again the suspect designate persons. That request is rejected.

The lawyer Mr. E. Zeppenfeldt, Council man of suspected S. Kalpoe was asked if he had any questions for the witness. He had no questions.

Suspected of Joran van der Sloot, Deepak Kalpoe and Satish Kalpoe was asked if he had any questions for the witness.  He had no questions.

very very interesting - no questions. Someone has place two of the three suspects at a locale and there are no questions. I would be all over this guy, but there are no questions. Just mind boggling. Sounds like two attorneys knew the outcome to me.

PROCESS – VERBAAL PART FIVE

We, [/B]Dennis Dominico JACOBS[/B] and Eric Louis SOEMERS, head agent and under inspector at the Korps Police force Aruba, former classified at the team particular projects and last at the section criminal organizations classified, explain the following.

On Monday, August 16, 2005, around 14:15, the man named:

Carlos Alberto PENATA RAMOS

Mr. Cornflakes is all over this witness and I suspect he is -> There are persons, who put pressure on me to talk. I have been placed under pressure by someone from Bubali, two inspectors and another man.

lso known as "Compa", born at Cartagena in Colombia on February 25, 1979, of profession gardener (family MANSUR) and living L.G. Smith boulevard xxxxxxxxxx on Aruba, by the judge-commissar Mr. J.S. KUIPERDAL at the Court bldg. at J.G. Emanstraat number 51 on Aruba, as witness in the matter of the missing American girl named "Natalee Ann HOLLOWAY".

After this interrogation, in the guard chamber at the Court, C.A. PENATA RAMOS gave this statement:

-    that the judge-commissar, during the interrogation, he authorized him to go to the w.c.:

-   [/b]that he saw two (2) young persons sitting (in car?) on a bank[/b]:

-   that he recognized those two young persons as those of which, with the Dutch boy who were in the photograph in the newspapers (with the Dutch boy he meant JVDS):

-   that he also recognized the gray car the boys were the Salinja in and:

-   that the two young persons appearance had changed but that he still nevertheless recognized them:

Of what our, statement, on oath of office made up this warrant, and has been signed at Oranjestad on August 16, 2005 has been closed.

Signed,

DD JACOBS             E.L. SOEMERS

Claims to see Joran according to PV, yet no mention of Deepak.

ok, have at it. I say this witness lied for the polis to expand the timeline. I say the journey is from CnC to Choose A Name to the Sloots to Arashi.

It's probably that simple.

Everyone have a great day and please feel free to snip and clip and of course I would love to see your comments.

[Tamikosmom]

DEEPAK PANICKED!!

If Joran van der Sloot’s words in the Peter Devries / Patrick van der Eem video recording exonerates Deepak and Satish Kalpoe from implication in the happenings encompassing the morning of May 30, 2005, the court testimony of Carlos Ramos’ observation and identification of Deepak Kalpoe can be disregarded.
__________________

THE GARDENER - COURT TESTIMONY

Carlos Ramos - Gardener
Court Hearing
August 15, 2005

I have seen the car in the morning of 30 May of Sunday on Monday. I went to Lorena on Monday night, then I went to work, told that I saw a car standing along the way when I drove along there. I cannot remember on which day I saw the photograph of the persons in the newspaper. The photograph, which the police force showed me, is the same photograph as the photograph that appeared in the Diario. You ask me how can I know or recognize the persons from the photograph in the newspaper or that I had seen that night. The first time then I saw the photograph in the Diario I had been astonished and I said that to colleagues. You represent me that I have explained that I have recognized the persons from their construction and mail hour. You ask me if I could see from my position in the car. My position was a bit is higher, in the turning I had drive concerning a sand hill as a result of which my position was a bit slanted. As a result, I could look at in the car. I have recognized the car from the rims. Also to the color and the transparent squares. You ask me if I can designate the persons, which sat in the car. Yes.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=271.msg41646;topicseen#msg41646


Gardener - Carlos Alberto Penata Ramos
Court Testimony
August 15, 2005

I looked and saw that on my watch it was at 02:30. For 03.00 I was at my work. I’m not sure exactly how precise it is. When I encountered the car in question, it was on that dirt road. I had slowed down to drive past there. The lights of my car "from" shining on that car. The person beside the driver, kept its hand for its head and face. I saw that the driver slid a bit to the back.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=271.msg41646;topicseen#msg41646


BETH HOLLOWAY

CNN LARRY KING LIVE
Update on Natalee Holloway Investigation
Aired February 23, 2006 - 21:00 ET

BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, MOTHER OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY:  I know one thing that Deepak Kalpoe did in August was, when the gardener came before the judge of instruction to give sworn testimony of witnessing those three suspects together in the Kalpoe brothers' car that night at the pond, across the street from the Marriott, it was in front of the prosecutor, in front of the defense, the judge of instruction, Deepak and Satish Kalpoe, Joran Van Der Sloot.

Deepak panicked. He panicked when the gardener gave that testimony. That very afternoon, he called an Aruban girl to help him establish an alibi. She, in turn, panicked. She called FBI. She dialed the 1-877-NATALEE number and told them that she did not want to be involved in this.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0602/23/lkl.01.html


DAVE HOLLOWAY

Corruption in Paradise - Dave Holloway

Page 139:  Deepak had heard that his alibi had been compromised by the gardener who had witnessed the boys in Deepak's car on the night of Natalee's disappearance.  So he contacted a girl he knew and tried to convince her to say that he was with her.  Instead, she contacted the FBI. 

[hotping]

Lifesong,

I didnt have much luck researching Kermit's question yesterday.  Wondering if you or Hotping had any results.  I found that Geotech is used by many different companies in their business name, and had to readjust my parameters several times. 

2NJ...I have an appointment I have to get to but I thought I would post this for now...BBL

Business Name:GEOTECH OIL AND GAS LLCOfficer's address:7300  Federal   Hwy,  Boca Raton,  FL  33487
Mailing address:7300  Federal   Hwy,  Boca Raton,  FL  33487
Registered Agent's address:320  Flamingo   Rd,  Pembroke Pines,  FL  33027
Filing State:FL
Expiration Date:05/01/2009
Status:Active, Accepted,
CurrentRegistered Agent:UNITED CORPORATION STATES AGEN
Filing Number:L08000066331
Record Number:8127_20080711
FIPS Code:12073
Address(es):320  Flamingo   Rd,  Pembroke Pines,  FL  33027
7300  Federal   Hwy,  Boca Raton,  FL  33487
7300  Federal   Hwy,  Boca Raton,  FL  33487
Officers/Directors:
Officer/Owner Name:JUSTIN,  SOLOMONAssociated Business(es):
Business Name:GULFSTREAM COAL LLC



I also found Justin Solomon associated with AEM TRANSFERS,LLC

[Buckeye]

A few thoughts:

If the witness was a plant, I would think he would have made "the statement" and signed it.

Interesting that officer "Kelly" was there for the non signing.  Isn't he the same officer that had the Joran addendum, in the Joran's first witness statement, mentioning "the beach"?

In the Skeeter's tapes, there is a discussion between Deepak and Jaime Skeeters.  Deepak doesn't deny the gardener...makes fun of him...but doesn't deny it.  Deepak does say he didn't call/contact a girl for an alibi but he's not so sure of Satish...IIRC

If I thought I knew something, on that island, I would prefer Jossy/Diario to the police/ArubaToday/Bondia/SoloP.  I don't have a problem with people going to Jossy.  I think Jossy does have power.  I have not decided how I think it is always utilized.  Who would a witness, on that island,  go to with information?  Is there a safer place?

[Tamikosmom]

The personals and professional connections that exist between Paulus van der Sloot and those within the investigation ... within the government .... within the judiciary ... implies legal conflicts of interest under Dutch law.  The Natalee Holloway case should have been turned over to the FBI.
______

CONFLICTS OF INTEREST

THE ACCORDING TO RUDY CROES

Dutch News - December 4, 2008

Van der Sloot father hindered Natalee probe’

Dutchman Jan van der Straten, who the Caribbean island of Aruba when US teenager Natalee Holloway disappeared, seriously hindered the investigation in the first few days, Aruban justice minister Rudy Croes is quoted as saying by news agency ANP.

ANP says Croes claims Van der Straten was slow to take action in order to help his friend Paul van der Sloot protect his son Joran, who was suspected of being involved in the disappearance. Such rumours have circulated on the island for some time, ANP says.

According to ANP, Croes made the statement following criticism of the Aruban police force made by Van der Straten earlier this week.
Questioning

Croes said that Joran and two other suspects were only taken in for questioning 10 days after Holloway went missing ‘when the first days are crucial in a disappearance’. And he claims he heard Van der Straten say ‘I cannot do that to my friend Paul’.
 
Croes also claims there were a lot of telephone conversations between Van der Sloot senior and Van der Straten and that a ‘second class’ police team was put on the investigation. ‘It was the team used during the carnival celebrations,’ ANP reports him as saying.

In addition, Croes accuses the Dutch government of failing to provide any moral support to Aruba. He says the Aruban authorities were pressurised to present Joran van der Sloot as an Aruban, not a Dutch national.

http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2008/12/van_der_sloots_father_hindered.php


ACCORDING TO JOSSY MANSUR

NANCY GRACE - October 4, 2005

Latest in Search for Natalee Holloway

GRACE: … Jossy, regarding the connection, what I perceived to be a close connection between the judge, Paulus Van Der Sloot and the retired chief of police who initially handled Natalee`s case, Van Der Stratten, were they friends?

MANSUR: Of course, they were friends. It stands to reason they were friends because Paul Van Der Sloot had many friends within the police department; he had many friends within the Department of Justice. And he had many friends with -- and he was friendly with all the judges in Aruba. He worked out of the same office as they did and did the same work.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0510/04/ng.01.html


ACCORDING TO PAULUS VAN DER SLOOT

NOVA - June 28, 2005

TWAN HUYS:  Do you know the people very well, for example, the people here from the public prosecutors' office that ordered your detention?

PAULUS VAN DER SLOOT: Yes, for sure, because, before that, I have worked for eight years as chief of the cabinet of the prosecutor general.

HUYS: So, you also know the current prosecutor general?

VAN DER SLOOT: Yes.

HUYS: Mrs. Croes.

VAN DER SLOOT: Yes.

HUYS: Yes, and what does that mean when your colleagues stop by to arrest you?

VAN DER SLOOT That gives a feeling of absurdity. It is indeed almost unimaginable that by someone you actually know very well, where you worked together with for a long time, that that one comes to tell you that you are suspected of complicity to murder.

HUYS: Who was that in your case?

VAN DER SLOOT: That was, in this case, that was the leader of the team of police commissioners.

HUYS: Jan van der Straaten.

VAN DER SLOOT: That was Jan van der Straaten, yes.

HUYS: And you know each other very well?

VAN DER SLOOT: Yes

http://scrux.com/natalee/paulusinterview.htm

[EURobert]

Hi guys!

Dutch SBS6 Shownews just announced (if I’m correct) they will air the most important parts of the Joran-polygraph-test-tape tonight.

Terror Jaap (winner of the “The Golden Cage” television-show) told SBS6 Hart-van-Nederland he was told that Joran was member of his Hyves (social-network) fan-site. There TJ contacted Joran and learned Joran had a big gambling-debt at a person ‘you don’t want to have a debt with’. So TJ saw his change to have Joran obliged to him by lending him the money to pay off the debt.

Later he proposed to Joran to have him tested at the lie detector. Joran agreed but didn’t show up when TJ had everything ready. Then TJ threatened him to make a documentary about how Joran misled him. That turned Joran into cooperating with the show.
Terror Jaap: Joran sat here as a small boy that lost his mother. Totally drawn back, trembling, sweating...

Some other remarks from the intro to the show:
After the first test-day the atmospere was much less comfortable.
Joran has a new girlfriend.
Joran doesn’t want to be on the run anymore. He totally has had enough of it.
He already has left the Netherlands again.

More later!

[Kermit]

Look what  the LEAK just sent me direct from their hidey hole.
 
 
Lisa posted
 
Kyle sent this response to "The Freebirds" statement posted on SM to Jug and I. I am so glad I did not post it at SM even though he said it was ok. After Kyle and I discussed it further, we felt it would do no good. I wanted to share it with you all though. His responses were underlined in the original e-mail. I am going to try and separate them in this text. Will color Kyle's responses in blue.

Hello Lisa, I'll address the following point by point. But first, I must say that I am absolutely grieved at how myself and others were drug back into that egotistical cesspool. What right do these people have in meddling incessantly with affairs that do not concern them? I am not responding to anyone despite their taunts in a public internet forum. I've said too much as it is.


The original text is italic with my responses bold and underlined:------
During the journey of the Persistence to Aruba, Kyle reached out and emailed with us.


I did not reach out to the Freebirds. The administrator (Jen) emailed me periodically to which I replied with basic updates, but nothing beyond what I already posted on the ship's blog. At some point, I was invited to participate in the discussions at Freebirds on their private forum and agreed because of xxxx support (xxxx). I figured if she trusted the group it must be alright. However, I posted nothing without the group first agreeing to complete confidentiality. They all agreed.

During that time, one of the questions posed to him was regarding protocol if/when Natalee's remains were found.

Kyle's response was that he was unsure, but felt that would be settled before the search began.
This is true.

The cautions were given to him about the lack of integrity on the part of Aruba's law enforcement, prosecutor's office, and its judiciary.

This is true, but no surprises


Contact with Kyle continued throughout the duration of the search by the Persistence.

I received periodic emails from the Freebirds (Jen).


Once back home, Kyle asked us for our help. He was very concerned about the activities that transpired during their search - specifically surrounding the find of the fishing cage and its contents. Kyle wanted our help in presenting this information in a factual way, to then be given to Natalee's family.

I had questions which were very unsettling about what I had observed during the search including the events surrounding the trap inspection by the Aruban divers and how the samples were handled by ALE - solely Richardson. This made me very uneasy. It was unsettling and I had no one to talk about it with. The Freebird forum was a place where I could safely discuss the unsettling aspects of the search and see if there were any connections. I only did so after the group agreed that nothing would leave the forum. I never wished for any of it to leave the forum.



Dec 30th and Jan 7th dives to the FBI, but had never received a response from them.

We later found that to be false.

This is completely incorrect. I had sent the FBI the dive screen shots the day each dive was made. Either John or Tim T. sent out the ROV videos at the first opportunity. This wasn't in my hands. I think the Freebirds contacted Birmingham FBI and drew a blank. I sent the screen shots to the senior agent in charge the day they were created, as instructed -Agent S. Bryant and D. Shipley (Barbados).

Also at that time, Beth's brother saw the images Kyle had shared with us - but none of the detail he shared later.

We compiled the images Kyle presented us, along with his opinions and the facts surrounding the sequence of events regarding that fishing cage. Kyle stated he would be getting in touch with Beth Holloway.

About half of what said was opinion, which I clearly stated. They used a lot of my words taken out of context and confused opinions with facts. I never stated I would get in touch with Beth. One of the Freebirds told me they would put Beth in contact with me, not the other way around. I did not see the point in Beth contacting me, as I knew Beth could go right to the FBI for answers and they had everything.
We later found out that never happened.

Naturally I didn't contact her. There was no purpose and I didn't have her contact information- nor should I.


At this time, Kyle shared with us the broadcast networks he had approached in February, in an attempt to sell these images to the highest bidder.

I didn't attempt to sell the images. I attempted to raise interest at ABC on Tim Trahan's request so that perhaps we could gain at least some funding to continue the search effort. It wasn't a highest bidder scenario, in fact there were no bidders. This happened the Wednesday before the Dateline special aired. ABC said too much of the story was already told and wasn't interested.

This didn't concern us greatly at that time - as we were under the impression US law enforcement and Natalee's family had already been made aware of their find.

So which is it? She just contradicted herself. They did know the FBI had everything.

Approximately May 2008 Kyle began dodging questions for details (we had asked for names of Aruban police and divers to be included in our documentation of these events), hedging on moving forward with this, and then he completely disappeared from our board.

I didn't dodge questions. I didn't have this information. I disappeared from the board because I was working offshore of Norway in the North Sea and also in remote places in North Africa and Egypt. I was gone from July through September. When I came back, I logged into the forum and saw they were about to release this grand document containing basically everything I said or posted. Much of it I knew was incorrect and based on opinion. I didn't agree with this, knowing it was inaccurate and also it was understood that nothing I posted was to be made public. They pressured me to change my mind and I wouldn't. I didn't want to get John pissed at me. He was already on edge with what I had posted in the past.

During that time, we learned Kyle had never contacted Beth, or Dave, or the FBI with this information.

Untrue. I was in contact with Agent Shipley through it all. They didn't learn this... they assumed incorrectly.


We put our original plan into motion - that of presenting this information in a clear and concise manner, and we sent it to Beth Holloway.

Beth was disturbed, needed time to digest the information, and wanted to share it with someone she trusts.


I'm sure it was disturbing. It was highly flawed and made the search team look like conspirators!


When Tim Miller was returning to Aruba this past fall, Beth gave us permission to release this information publicly.
Beth didn't do anything of the sort. I read the email.

At that point, we gave it to John Kelly, Carmen Adams with the FBI, and got it ready for public consumption.

The next step was to publish this information at our blog.

One of our members felt we were betraying Kyle in doing so, contacted him, and he re-surfaced at our site with threats of litigation against us - stating this was his "intellectual property" and we could not use it.

That of course concerned us greatly - as none of us could afford to be sued.

I didn't threaten any of them. I said that I personally didn't want to get sued for breaking a confidentiality agreement with information ending up on the Internet. Them pushing it all out put me at risk legally and jeopardized my relationship with John (which is now destroyed over this). Also, this information did not belong posted on the Internet in the first place. It was a huge naive misjudgement on my part to trust this group enough to share it in confidence.



He also stated at that time, Luis Shaefer had just recently sold the rights of the video of these images to a broadcast company for the purposes of a documentary.

I said that Louis was looking into ways to tell the story. One of those ways he was considering was doing a documentary. I didn't know anything further.

We contacted legal counsel and were advised to keep our distance from any Persistence crew member, in the face of potential obstruction/accessory charges.

Obstruction charges? Shouldn't this have been a wake-up call that they were meddling where they shouldn't have been?

At this point, one of our members decided to brace for the possibility of civil litigation, resigned from our membership to protect it from same, and posted what he knows to be factual at SM.
Kyle did tell us human remains were found in that fish cage.

I said the FBI did a DNA analysis on the sample they received. They re-interpreted this as having found remains in the trap.

Kyle did tell us about John Silvetti's intent to open an office on the island of Aruba, to enable him ease in conducting business in South America, and Aruba.

John has no such intentions to my knowledge.

Kyle also told us of John's absolute refusal to give that fish cage and its contents any credence - before even it was inspected on Jan 7th.


John wasn't refusing to give it any credence before inspection on Jan 7th, he was remaining objective and keeping focused. I said John wasn't convinced. He wasn't. He said he wouldn't be convinced unless he heard otherwise from the FBI.


Kyle told us in no uncertain terms that Tim Miller and Dateline were abruptly removed from the Persistence on Dec 30, resulting in only Persistence crew being aboard between that date and the Jan 7 dive of the Arubans.

Tim Miller went to Nicaragua on his own terms and Dateline followed him. Tim was chasing down the Nicaraguan lead. He wasn't removed from the Persistence.


Nothing that was posted at SM by kermit was incorrect, out of context, or in any way false.

I think that statement is absolutely incredible! Kermit and the rest of them not only betrayed my trust and the confidentiality agreement, she continued to post slanderous accusations and used some of my own words, thoughts, and opinions out of context to peddle her adjenda and make the search team look like a bunch of conspirators with John and I at the helm! John hasn't spoken to me since all this nonsense exploded. I've worked with him since Hurricane Katrina. He's been one of my best and trusted clients and friends. This may have destroyed our relationship and therefore affected my ability to provide for my family, which includes my daughter... who we named after Natalee. When will the madness end?

[Kermit]

Hi Helen and monkeys  good morning
for me it is almost 03.30pm....

Gunten Tagg Herr

Elivis Weert

a disc jockey on Aruba Radio Top 95, is one of the most vocal opponents of what he sees as disproportionate coverage of an aberrant incident.

He said the American media should scrutinize its own country as thoroughly as it has examined Aruba. "How many children have gone missing in the United States in the last month?" he said. "You don't hear anything about that."
http://stage-radio.ksl.com/index.php?nid=102&sid=213390


You can fool some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time.

[EURobert]

Hi guys!

Dutch SBS6 Shownews just announced (if I’m correct) they will air the most important parts of the Joran-polygraph-test-tape tonight.

Terror Jaap (winner of the “The Golden Cage” television-show) told SBS6 Hart-van-Nederland he was told that Joran was member of his Hyves (social-network) fan-site. There TJ contacted Joran and learned Joran had a big gambling-debt at a person ‘you don’t want to have a debt with’. So TJ saw his change to have Joran obliged to him by lending him the money to pay off the debt.

Later he proposed to Joran to have him tested at the lie detector. Joran agreed but didn’t show up when TJ had everything ready. Then TJ threatened him to make a documentary about how Joran misled him. That turned Joran into cooperating with the show.
Terror Jaap: Joran sat here as a small boy that lost his mother. Totally drawn back, trembling, sweating...

Some other remarks from the intro to the show:
After the first test-day the atmospere was much less comfortable.
Joran has a new girlfriend.
Joran doesn’t want to be on the run anymore. He totally has had enough of it.
He already has left the Netherlands again.

More later!

The shownews episode is already posted on the SBS6 site: http://tinyurl.com/d5k2s7
But I can't find the date the polygraphshow will be aired. Maybe not tonight but later?

[2NJSons_Mom]

Kermit,

I think some of your comments are mistakenly in blue in the post with Kyle's email.  Can you confirm?

[jen3560]

Thanks Kerm.  And special thanks to your LEAK.  Now I fully understand some of the delusions under which those people have been functioning.

Where does she come up with this crap?  Because I know Kyle isn't stupid enough to lie in such a manner?

For crimeny sakes................where to even begin?????

I guess at the beginning?  I could re-post Kyle's first email to us?

Oh wait.

I already did that once.

Here it is again - just for anyone who missed it the first time

search for Natalee
Tuesday, December 11, 2007 8:59 PM
From: This sender is DomainKeys verified"Kyle Kingman" <xxxxxxxxx>
To: freebirdsjustice@yahoo.com
-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

Greetings, I came across your site and thought you'd might be interested in following along with the search.  I'm the geophysical engineer on board the Persistence and author of the ship's blog which chronicles the search effort.  http://nholloway.blogspot.com Regards,
--
Kyle Kingman
+++++++++

I guess we were just supposed to ignore him, and carry on?

I would imagine that if Klaas, Debbie (BFN), Michelle (Boycott Aruba) were to see this, they could confirm that they likely received similar emails.

Look what  the LEAK just sent me direct from their hidey hole.
 
 
Lisa posted
 
Kyle sent this response to "The Freebirds" statement posted on SM to Jug and I. I am so glad I did not post it at SM even though he said it was ok. After Kyle and I discussed it further, we felt it would do no good. I wanted to share it with you all though. His responses were underlined in the original e-mail. I am going to try and separate them in this text. Will color Kyle's responses in blue.

Hello Lisa, I'll address the following point by point. But first, I must say that I am absolutely grieved at how myself and others were drug back into that egotistical cesspool. What right do these people have in meddling incessantly with affairs that do not concern them? I am not responding to anyone despite their taunts in a public internet forum. I've said too much as it is.


The original text is italic with my responses bold and underlined:------
During the journey of the Persistence to Aruba, Kyle reached out and emailed with us.


I did not reach out to the Freebirds. The administrator (Jen) emailed me periodically to which I replied with basic updates, but nothing beyond what I already posted on the ship's blog. At some point, I was invited to participate in the discussions at Freebirds on their private forum and agreed because of xxxx support (xxxx). I figured if she trusted the group it must be alright. However, I posted nothing without the group first agreeing to complete confidentiality. They all agreed.

During that time, one of the questions posed to him was regarding protocol if/when Natalee's remains were found.

Kyle's response was that he was unsure, but felt that would be settled before the search began.
This is true.

The cautions were given to him about the lack of integrity on the part of Aruba's law enforcement, prosecutor's office, and its judiciary.

This is true, but no surprises


Contact with Kyle continued throughout the duration of the search by the Persistence.

I received periodic emails from the Freebirds (Jen).


Once back home, Kyle asked us for our help. He was very concerned about the activities that transpired during their search - specifically surrounding the find of the fishing cage and its contents. Kyle wanted our help in presenting this information in a factual way, to then be given to Natalee's family.

I had questions which were very unsettling about what I had observed during the search including the events surrounding the trap inspection by the Aruban divers and how the samples were handled by ALE - solely Richardson. This made me very uneasy. It was unsettling and I had no one to talk about it with. The Freebird forum was a place where I could safely discuss the unsettling aspects of the search and see if there were any connections. I only did so after the group agreed that nothing would leave the forum. I never wished for any of it to leave the forum.



Dec 30th and Jan 7th dives to the FBI, but had never received a response from them.

We later found that to be false.

This is completely incorrect. I had sent the FBI the dive screen shots the day each dive was made. Either John or Tim T. sent out the ROV videos at the first opportunity. This wasn't in my hands. I think the Freebirds contacted Birmingham FBI and drew a blank. I sent the screen shots to the senior agent in charge the day they were created, as instructed -Agent S. Bryant and D. Shipley (Barbados).

Also at that time, Beth's brother saw the images Kyle had shared with us - but none of the detail he shared later.

We compiled the images Kyle presented us, along with his opinions and the facts surrounding the sequence of events regarding that fishing cage. Kyle stated he would be getting in touch with Beth Holloway.

About half of what said was opinion, which I clearly stated. They used a lot of my words taken out of context and confused opinions with facts. I never stated I would get in touch with Beth. One of the Freebirds told me they would put Beth in contact with me, not the other way around. I did not see the point in Beth contacting me, as I knew Beth could go right to the FBI for answers and they had everything.
We later found out that never happened.

Naturally I didn't contact her. There was no purpose and I didn't have her contact information- nor should I.


At this time, Kyle shared with us the broadcast networks he had approached in February, in an attempt to sell these images to the highest bidder.

I didn't attempt to sell the images. I attempted to raise interest at ABC on Tim Trahan's request so that perhaps we could gain at least some funding to continue the search effort. It wasn't a highest bidder scenario, in fact there were no bidders. This happened the Wednesday before the Dateline special aired. ABC said too much of the story was already told and wasn't interested.

This didn't concern us greatly at that time - as we were under the impression US law enforcement and Natalee's family had already been made aware of their find.

So which is it? She just contradicted herself. They did know the FBI had everything.

Approximately May 2008 Kyle began dodging questions for details (we had asked for names of Aruban police and divers to be included in our documentation of these events), hedging on moving forward with this, and then he completely disappeared from our board.

I didn't dodge questions. I didn't have this information. I disappeared from the board because I was working offshore of Norway in the North Sea and also in remote places in North Africa and Egypt. I was gone from July through September. When I came back, I logged into the forum and saw they were about to release this grand document containing basically everything I said or posted. Much of it I knew was incorrect and based on opinion. I didn't agree with this, knowing it was inaccurate and also it was understood that nothing I posted was to be made public. They pressured me to change my mind and I wouldn't. I didn't want to get John pissed at me. He was already on edge with what I had posted in the past.

During that time, we learned Kyle had never contacted Beth, or Dave, or the FBI with this information.

Untrue. I was in contact with Agent Shipley through it all. They didn't learn this... they assumed incorrectly.


We put our original plan into motion - that of presenting this information in a clear and concise manner, and we sent it to Beth Holloway.

Beth was disturbed, needed time to digest the information, and wanted to share it with someone she trusts.


I'm sure it was disturbing. It was highly flawed and made the search team look like conspirators!


When Tim Miller was returning to Aruba this past fall, Beth gave us permission to release this information publicly.
Beth didn't do anything of the sort. I read the email.

At that point, we gave it to John Kelly, Carmen Adams with the FBI, and got it ready for public consumption.

The next step was to publish this information at our blog.

One of our members felt we were betraying Kyle in doing so, contacted him, and he re-surfaced at our site with threats of litigation against us - stating this was his "intellectual property" and we could not use it.

That of course concerned us greatly - as none of us could afford to be sued.

I didn't threaten any of them. I said that I personally didn't want to get sued for breaking a confidentiality agreement with information ending up on the Internet. Them pushing it all out put me at risk legally and jeopardized my relationship with John (which is now destroyed over this). Also, this information did not belong posted on the Internet in the first place. It was a huge naive misjudgement on my part to trust this group enough to share it in confidence.



He also stated at that time, Luis Shaefer had just recently sold the rights of the video of these images to a broadcast company for the purposes of a documentary.

I said that Louis was looking into ways to tell the story. One of those ways he was considering was doing a documentary. I didn't know anything further.

We contacted legal counsel and were advised to keep our distance from any Persistence crew member, in the face of potential obstruction/accessory charges.

Obstruction charges? Shouldn't this have been a wake-up call that they were meddling where they shouldn't have been?

At this point, one of our members decided to brace for the possibility of civil litigation, resigned from our membership to protect it from same, and posted what he knows to be factual at SM.
Kyle did tell us human remains were found in that fish cage.

I said the FBI did a DNA analysis on the sample they received. They re-interpreted this as having found remains in the trap.

Kyle did tell us about John Silvetti's intent to open an office on the island of Aruba, to enable him ease in conducting business in South America, and Aruba.

John has no such intentions to my knowledge.

Kyle also told us of John's absolute refusal to give that fish cage and its contents any credence - before even it was inspected on Jan 7th.


John wasn't refusing to give it any credence before inspection on Jan 7th, he was remaining objective and keeping focused. I said John wasn't convinced. He wasn't. He said he wouldn't be convinced unless he heard otherwise from the FBI.


Kyle told us in no uncertain terms that Tim Miller and Dateline were abruptly removed from the Persistence on Dec 30, resulting in only Persistence crew being aboard between that date and the Jan 7 dive of the Arubans.

Tim Miller went to Nicaragua on his own terms and Dateline followed him. Tim was chasing down the Nicaraguan lead. He wasn't removed from the Persistence.


Nothing that was posted at SM by kermit was incorrect, out of context, or in any way false.

I think that statement is absolutely incredible! Kermit and the rest of them not only betrayed my trust and the confidentiality agreement, she continued to post slanderous accusations and used some of my own words, thoughts, and opinions out of context to peddle her adjenda and make the search team look like a bunch of conspirators with John and I at the helm! John hasn't spoken to me since all this nonsense exploded. I've worked with him since Hurricane Katrina. He's been one of my best and trusted clients and friends. This may have destroyed our relationship and therefore affected my ability to provide for my family, which includes my daughter... who we named after Natalee. When will the madness end?

[jen3560]

2NJ - it looks like you are correct.  This looks like a response (supposedly) from Kyle to my letter I emailed to klaas and she posted here.  It looks like the blue hightlight may have inadvertently been extended into some of my original words.  I'll change that here in this quote - so you can see what my words were, versus what Lisa claims are Kyle's responses.

Look what  the LEAK just sent me direct from their hidey hole.
 
 
Lisa posted
 
Kyle sent this response to "The Freebirds" statement posted on SM to Jug and I. I am so glad I did not post it at SM even though he said it was ok. After Kyle and I discussed it further, we felt it would do no good. I wanted to share it with you all though. His responses were underlined in the original e-mail. I am going to try and separate them in this text. Will color Kyle's responses in blue.

Hello Lisa, I'll address the following point by point. But first, I must say that I am absolutely grieved at how myself and others were drug back into that egotistical cesspool. What right do these people have in meddling incessantly with affairs that do not concern them? I am not responding to anyone despite their taunts in a public internet forum. I've said too much as it is.


The original text is italic with my responses bold and underlined:------
During the journey of the Persistence to Aruba, Kyle reached out and emailed with us.


I did not reach out to the Freebirds. The administrator (Jen) emailed me periodically to which I replied with basic updates, but nothing beyond what I already posted on the ship's blog. At some point, I was invited to participate in the discussions at Freebirds on their private forum and agreed because of xxxx support (xxxx). I figured if she trusted the group it must be alright. However, I posted nothing without the group first agreeing to complete confidentiality. They all agreed.

During that time, one of the questions posed to him was regarding protocol if/when Natalee's remains were found.

Kyle's response was that he was unsure, but felt that would be settled before the search began.
This is true.

The cautions were given to him about the lack of integrity on the part of Aruba's law enforcement, prosecutor's office, and its judiciary.

This is true, but no surprises


Contact with Kyle continued throughout the duration of the search by the Persistence.

I received periodic emails from the Freebirds (Jen).


Once back home, Kyle asked us for our help. He was very concerned about the activities that transpired during their search - specifically surrounding the find of the fishing cage and its contents. Kyle wanted our help in presenting this information in a factual way, to then be given to Natalee's family.

I had questions which were very unsettling about what I had observed during the search including the events surrounding the trap inspection by the Aruban divers and how the samples were handled by ALE - solely Richardson. This made me very uneasy. It was unsettling and I had no one to talk about it with. The Freebird forum was a place where I could safely discuss the unsettling aspects of the search and see if there were any connections. I only did so after the group agreed that nothing would leave the forum. I never wished for any of it to leave the forum.



Dec 30th and Jan 7th dives to the FBI, but had never received a response from them.

We later found that to be false.

This is completely incorrect. I had sent the FBI the dive screen shots the day each dive was made. Either John or Tim T. sent out the ROV videos at the first opportunity. This wasn't in my hands. I think the Freebirds contacted Birmingham FBI and drew a blank. I sent the screen shots to the senior agent in charge the day they were created, as instructed -Agent S. Bryant and D. Shipley (Barbados).

Also at that time, Beth's brother saw the images Kyle had shared with us - but none of the detail he shared later.

We compiled the images Kyle presented us, along with his opinions and the facts surrounding the sequence of events regarding that fishing cage. Kyle stated he would be getting in touch with Beth Holloway.

About half of what said was opinion, which I clearly stated. They used a lot of my words taken out of context and confused opinions with facts. I never stated I would get in touch with Beth. One of the Freebirds told me they would put Beth in contact with me, not the other way around. I did not see the point in Beth contacting me, as I knew Beth could go right to the FBI for answers and they had everything.
We later found out that never happened.

Naturally I didn't contact her. There was no purpose and I didn't have her contact information- nor should I.


At this time, Kyle shared with us the broadcast networks he had approached in February, in an attempt to sell these images to the highest bidder.

I didn't attempt to sell the images. I attempted to raise interest at ABC on Tim Trahan's request so that perhaps we could gain at least some funding to continue the search effort. It wasn't a highest bidder scenario, in fact there were no bidders. This happened the Wednesday before the Dateline special aired. ABC said too much of the story was already told and wasn't interested.

This didn't concern us greatly at that time - as we were under the impression US law enforcement and Natalee's family had already been made aware of their find.

So which is it? She just contradicted herself. They did know the FBI had everything.

Approximately May 2008 Kyle began dodging questions for details (we had asked for names of Aruban police and divers to be included in our documentation of these events), hedging on moving forward with this, and then he completely disappeared from our board.

I didn't dodge questions. I didn't have this information. I disappeared from the board because I was working offshore of Norway in the North Sea and also in remote places in North Africa and Egypt. I was gone from July through September. When I came back, I logged into the forum and saw they were about to release this grand document containing basically everything I said or posted. Much of it I knew was incorrect and based on opinion. I didn't agree with this, knowing it was inaccurate and also it was understood that nothing I posted was to be made public. They pressured me to change my mind and I wouldn't. I didn't want to get John pissed at me. He was already on edge with what I had posted in the past.

During that time, we learned Kyle had never contacted Beth, or Dave, or the FBI with this information.

Untrue. I was in contact with Agent Shipley through it all. They didn't learn this... they assumed incorrectly.


We put our original plan into motion - that of presenting this information in a clear and concise manner, and we sent it to Beth Holloway.

Beth was disturbed, needed time to digest the information, and wanted to share it with someone she trusts.


I'm sure it was disturbing. It was highly flawed and made the search team look like conspirators!


When Tim Miller was returning to Aruba this past fall, Beth gave us permission to release this information publicly.
Beth didn't do anything of the sort. I read the email.

At that point, we gave it to John Kelly, Carmen Adams with the FBI, and got it ready for public consumption.

The next step was to publish this information at our blog.

One of our members felt we were betraying Kyle in doing so, contacted him, and he re-surfaced at our site with threats of litigation against us - stating this was his "intellectual property" and we could not use it.

That of course concerned us greatly - as none of us could afford to be sued.

I didn't threaten any of them. I said that I personally didn't want to get sued for breaking a confidentiality agreement with information ending up on the Internet. Them pushing it all out put me at risk legally and jeopardized my relationship with John (which is now destroyed over this). Also, this information did not belong posted on the Internet in the first place. It was a huge naive misjudgement on my part to trust this group enough to share it in confidence.



He also stated at that time, Luis Shaefer had just recently sold the rights of the video of these images to a broadcast company for the purposes of a documentary.

I said that Louis was looking into ways to tell the story. One of those ways he was considering was doing a documentary. I didn't know anything further.

We contacted legal counsel and were advised to keep our distance from any Persistence crew member, in the face of potential obstruction/accessory charges.

Obstruction charges? Shouldn't this have been a wake-up call that they were meddling where they shouldn't have been?

At this point, one of our members decided to brace for the possibility of civil litigation, resigned from our membership to protect it from same, and posted what he knows to be factual at SM.
Kyle did tell us human remains were found in that fish cage.

I said the FBI did a DNA analysis on the sample they received. They re-interpreted this as having found remains in the trap.

Kyle did tell us about John Silvetti's intent to open an office on the island of Aruba, to enable him ease in conducting business in South America, and Aruba.

John has no such intentions to my knowledge.

Kyle also told us of John's absolute refusal to give that fish cage and its contents any credence - before even it was inspected on Jan 7th.


John wasn't refusing to give it any credence before inspection on Jan 7th, he was remaining objective and keeping focused. I said John wasn't convinced. He wasn't. He said he wouldn't be convinced unless he heard otherwise from the FBI.


Kyle told us in no uncertain terms that Tim Miller and Dateline were abruptly removed from the Persistence on Dec 30, resulting in only Persistence crew being aboard between that date and the Jan 7 dive of the Arubans.

Tim Miller went to Nicaragua on his own terms and Dateline followed him. Tim was chasing down the Nicaraguan lead. He wasn't removed from the Persistence.


Nothing that was posted at SM by kermit was incorrect, out of context, or in any way false.

I think that statement is absolutely incredible! Kermit and the rest of them not only betrayed my trust and the confidentiality agreement, she continued to post slanderous accusations and used some of my own words, thoughts, and opinions out of context to peddle her adjenda and make the search team look like a bunch of conspirators with John and I at the helm! John hasn't spoken to me since all this nonsense exploded. I've worked with him since Hurricane Katrina. He's been one of my best and trusted clients and friends. This may have destroyed our relationship and therefore affected my ability to provide for my family, which includes my daughter... who we named after Natalee. When will the madness end?

[Kermit]

Kermit,

I think some of your comments are mistakenly in blue in the post with Kyle's email.  Can you confirm?

The blue is Istlou's comments to Kyles email to her.

I did not add to the post at all.
None of it is my comments at all.

[Kermit]

I have not had a chance to read it.
It having come from someone that I know lies .....well I just figured she was lying to her buddies about what Kyle said.

[Buckeye]

Hi guys!

Dutch SBS6 Shownews just announced (if I’m correct) they will air the most important parts of the Joran-polygraph-test-tape tonight.

Terror Jaap (winner of the “The Golden Cage” television-show) told SBS6 Hart-van-Nederland he was told that Joran was member of his Hyves (social-network) fan-site. There TJ contacted Joran and learned Joran had a big gambling-debt at a person ‘you don’t want to have a debt with’. So TJ saw his change to have Joran obliged to him by lending him the money to pay off the debt.

Later he proposed to Joran to have him tested at the lie detector. Joran agreed but didn’t show up when TJ had everything ready. Then TJ threatened him to make a documentary about how Joran misled him. That turned Joran into cooperating with the show.
Terror Jaap: Joran sat here as a small boy that lost his mother. Totally drawn back, trembling, sweating...

Some other remarks from the intro to the show:
After the first test-day the atmospere was much less comfortable.
Joran has a new girlfriend.
Joran doesn’t want to be on the run anymore. He totally has had enough of it.
He already has left the Netherlands again.

More later!

The shownews episode is already posted on the SBS6 site: http://tinyurl.com/d5k2s7
But I can't find the date the polygraphshow will be aired. Maybe not tonight but later?

Thanks EuroRobert.  Keep us posted.

[2NJSons_Mom]

Kermit,

I think some of your comments are mistakenly in blue in the post with Kyle's email.  Can you confirm?

The blue is Istlou's comments to Kyles email to her.

I did not add to the post at all.
None of it is my comments at all.

That's fine, Kermit.  Jen understood what I was pointing out and has clarified in her last post.  I was going to edit but will leave it.  Thank you.

[oldiebutgoodie]

You can fool some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time.

Oftentimes, a good indication of how close you are striking at the real truth is just how desperate and vehement and panicked and seemingly rage-filled and paranoid the "opposition" becomes. Is it any wonder then that SM members have become a focus of some of the worst sort of intimidation? It's like that old kid's game of "Am I Getting Warmer?" The closer we come to wrapping up the truth, even if we didn't know some things for certain, can be almost verified by how anxious and vitriolic those who have something to lose by the truth coming out become. They don't know they are pointing the way, putting out huge road signs for anyone to follow.

It truly is quite desperate and indicative of mental illness to obsess over the incredibly boring sprinklings of minutiae to be found on the internet that might marginally relate to any SM member's life. To go after the children of SM members, too? Wow. Must be getting warmer, huh?

Publishing any private information in a public forum that the private individual who is the targetted victim of such cyberstalking has not consented to have published is clearly a violation of law. Pretending to be ignorant of the law will not help a perp escape responsibility. Fake religious posturing after the fact of having been involved in a conspiracy to stalk someone will not help a perp escape liability. A perp waxing melodic on themes of forgiveness and being so generous as to forgive themselves for having committed their own crimes without any effort at apology or restitution to their vitim(s) will not help a perp escape responsibility.

International threatening and harrassing phone calls, hunting down peoples' children, libel published online... yep, the Monkeys are getting so warm now, they are blazing hot. Just look at how desperate your opposition has become.

[texasmom]

Rob...very interesting!  I want to spend some more time on that later...(just on my lunch break now).

Thanks EuRobert!  We appreciate the updates, please keep them coming! 

Thanks Kermit!  I want to spend some more time on your information too!

Have a great afternoon/evening for (EuRobert) Monkeys!  We're having terrible storms but I hope to be back on after work! 

Keep up the good work everyone....I think oldiebutgoodie's definitely got a point!