Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 - 12/6/08

[Anna]

Judge sentences O.J. Simpson to 15-plus years in prison for Las Vegas hotel armed robbery, kidnapping — 61-year-old disgraced Hall of Famer will be eligible for parole after six years.

http://www.foxnews.com/

And no one died or was disappeared.

Just couldn't do the right thing as we so often see in sociopaths.

[Dayhiker]

None of these cowards believe they will be in any sort of legal jeopardy. The blaming and shaming is how they play this game. They did it with Natalee and Beth.

These Dutch who care so much about appearances get more thin-skinned by being made to look bad than caring at all about Natalee and a crime.

Look what they've already told us. The coordination began with the Tourism Board that backed the idea of attacking Natalee and defending Aruba. Steve Cohen is as guilty as Jan van der straaten in participating in a cover up. It was more like a strategy.

But it's out of control now, and the paranoid don't do well in this situation. I think Natalee haunts them literally and Rudy Croes and Joran van der sloot and Paulus are afraid to turn their heads.

If Joran can go free spinning stories, why don't you think Rudy Croes and jan van der straaten can too?

It's like they are playing power games with each other by revealing bits and pieces of what they already know, like little rounds of ammo to hurt each other.

Every day I still am shocked at the fact that no one person has the courage to stand up and risk everything by ending this nightmare. I still am amazed really.

I never believed people could be that totally without soul. They all know what happened. Nothing is beyond reality. I'm still waiting for Paulus to represent the guards in a suit against the Aruba Police Department.

Both the guards and the van der sloots have called the police "fools."

Is that a lie? Are they as Steve Cohen says "confused not corrupt?"

Mitch said on Greta's program Monday night that Van der Straten told them that any questions the family wanted answered would have to go through the Aruba Tourism Board. Who was on that board? ANTONIO CARLO, Joran's lawyer and PVDS' good buddy future business partner to be.

Who worked with the tourism boards ATA and AHATA? Steve Cohen. I think Dana needs to get Steve back on to play hardball.

[AZLady]

So, Kyle did communicate his concerns about a coverup and possible destruction of evidence to the family at least before March 20.  At least that's how I interpret this post from Private Eye.

private eye beth's brother  March 20, 2008
Kyle I specifically mentioned the blue denim and the fact that would be the material of which the skirt was made,

Kyle- I emailed Beth your concerns and have suggested to her that she contact the appropriate people on the Persistence, including yourself, and attempt to reconcile as best they can the material the crew saw recovered from the cage versus what they received. I specifically mentioned the blue denim and the fact that would be the material of which the skirt was made, and reminded her that the press release said that the material did not match her blouse. I also pointed out that in the December 30 photo there appeared to be a skull and in the January 7, it did not look at all like a skull. But I did think I noticed a second object in one of the zip lock bags that could possibly be the object that resembled a skull, possibly. I am a little amazed that the denim looks remarkably NOT deteriorated. Mostly I was trying to pique her interest to get her to contact the appropriate people. I think Dave worked closely with the owner of the boat, so he may well have already done this. But I know Beth appreciates the heads up, as do I. You are a good man. I did tell her my main concern was that you were concerned, and that I respect and trust your judgment enough for her to investigate this. Thanks.

AZ - I could be wrong, but I think this was when Kermit got involved.  Obviously PI didn't know much about denim or he wouldn't have been asking about it on the SM Forum.

No, this appears to be the time that Kyle expressed his concern about a cover up to Private Eye and he passed this along to Beth. 

PI says:
Kyle- I emailed Beth your concerns and have suggested to her that she contact the appropriate people on the Persistence, including yourself, and attempt to reconcile as best they can the material the crew saw recovered from the cage versus what they received.

[AZLady]

Hirsch Ballin is the Netherlands Minister of Justice.  His biography is at:

http://english.justitie.nl/organisation/organisational-chart/biography-hirsch-ballin.aspx

[Dayhiker]

I believe Van der Straten will not go down without a fight, Janet, and he'll drag anybody he can down with him. That opens up a big ole can of worms for a lot of people on Aruba and others like Jannsen who have fled the island.

If the Dutch investigate, which I believe they will be forced to do, Jan will not be the only one that gets looked at. Ben Vocking, Jannsen, Jacobs, the Dutch judges, all need to be looked at.

Holland and Hans are getting smeared big time in the international media. There are so many corruption angles Aruba is getting hit by right now it boggles the mind. Hans' pathethetic strategy to once again closed the case is, once again, being derailed.

The beauty of all this is barrage is: how can they even think about closing the case now?

I agree and ... that is why I suspect that Jan van der Straaten is on board with the Aruban agenda.  Obviously ... he has been compensated to take the fall.  Obviously ... the consequences he will receive for obstructing the investigation has been negotiated.

Think about it Dayhiker.  Do you honestly believe that Rudy Croes would implicate Jan van der Straaten if he thought for one minute that there would be a domino effect?  Hey ... Rudy Croes himself would most likely be one of the dominos in that long line that would fall when the first domino ... the Jan van der Straaten domino is pushed.

IMO

Janet

Janet, this is the highest profile international missing person/murder case certainly in the last decade. Van der Straten has got to be in his mid-to-late 60s. Do you think he's going to throw whatever legacy of his career he has in the toilet and spend the last few years of his life in KIA for money he can't even spend?

[truthseeker2]

Thanks Lala's for reminding me...

Here is the link for some early discussions in Shango on Clyde Burke. Kermie used a post to back up one of his posts...

Ask Lala's and Finngirl...It is all about context... 

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=1952.2860

Maybe you have to explain the context...

Good Morning!...Shango 101 Context?

I have to agree.  Context is the key to working with the riddle posts.  Back when this came to light about the identity of Simian I felt the arguments were very compelling.  For me, that solidified a second identity for, with Van Der Straaten as Shango's Dirty Hand and Armin as Simian.

(I posted my reasaons for identifying Van Der Straaten at around page 10-13 of the first Simian/Shango thread.)

[the big hammer]

Rudy Croes Is A Buffoon

Croes is of the opinion that the solving of the case is with the three Dutchmen Van der Straten and Paul and Joran van der Sloot. He says that a new investigation team must come that consists of Arubans, Antilleans, and Americans. "Why did it never occur to them to remove Jan van der Straten from his position after those ten ill-bred days?

Who is "them", Rudy? 

Who are "they"?

"They" are YOU.

You are the MINISTER OF JUSTICE.  You have the power to order an investigation.  Make it so.  Order it.  Get on the phone and call John Kelly and request a reccomendation for an independent and objective investigative force composed of AMERICAN law enforcement personnnel.  Do it.  Do it now.

Who are you trying to shift blame to?

Who is "them"?

.

[truthseeker2]

I spoke to Jug again this morning. He asked me to please try and keep everyone focused on what is happening NOW!! It could be HUGE!!! They really finally have real HOPE!! that the cover-up we have been investigating for over three and a have years is FINALLY going to be blown wide open. It is very real!! A lot is happening behind the scenes that we don't know of. The focus right now should not be on who is right or wrong amounst the Monkeys, it should be on JAN VAN DER STRAATEN!!! He holds ALL the answers!! And he is sweating bullets along with paulus right now I am sure!!

Lou,
Does Jug put any credence into Joran's latest interview with Greta?  Does he think Joran revealed anything then?

[Magnolia]

Rudy Croes Is A Buffoon

Croes is of the opinion that the solving of the case is with the three Dutchmen Van der Straten and Paul and Joran van der Sloot. He says that a new investigation team must come that consists of Arubans, Antilleans, and Americans. "Why did it never occur to them to remove Jan van der Straten from his position after those ten ill-bred days?

Who is "them", Rudy? 

Who are "they"?

"They" are YOU.

You are the MINISTER OF JUSTICE.  You have the power to order an investigation.  Make it so.  Order it.  Get on the phone and call John Kelly and request a reccomendation for an independent and objective investigative force composed of AMERICAN law enforcement personnnel.  Do it.  Do it now.

Who are you trying to shift blame to?

Who is "them"?

.

I think that they did remove Van der Straaten from the case early on
and put Dompig in charge.
Van der Straaten sued to get his position back as head of the investigation
One of Paulus' judge buddies put Van der Straaten back in charge of the case.

[blah]

I believe Van der Straten will not go down without a fight, Janet, and he'll drag anybody he can down with him. That opens up a big ole can of worms for a lot of people on Aruba and others like Jannsen who have fled the island.

If the Dutch investigate, which I believe they will be forced to do, Jan will not be the only one that gets looked at. Ben Vocking, Jannsen, Jacobs, the Dutch judges, all need to be looked at.

Holland and Hans are getting smeared big time in the international media. There are so many corruption angles Aruba is getting hit by right now it boggles the mind. Hans' pathethetic strategy to once again closed the case is, once again, being derailed.

The beauty of all this is barrage is: how can they even think about closing the case now?

I agree and ... that is why I suspect that Jan van der Straaten is on board with the Aruban agenda.  Obviously ... he has been compensated to take the fall.  Obviously ... the consequences he will receive for obstructing the investigation has been negotiated.

Think about it Dayhiker.  Do you honestly believe that Rudy Croes would implicate Jan van der Straaten if he thought for one minute that there would be a domino effect?  Hey ... Rudy Croes himself would most likely be one of the dominos in that long line that would fall when the first domino ... the Jan van der Straaten domino is pushed.

IMO

Janet

Janet, this is the highest profile international missing person/murder case certainly in the last decade. Van der Straten has got to be in his mid-to-late 60s. Do you think he's going to throw whatever legacy of his career he has in the toilet and spend the last few years of his life in KIA for money he can't even spend?

Are you kidding, he isnt going to do any time.  He is probably covered under the same law Paulus is where they can lie and screw up the investigation because he is family.  After all, van der straten is Jorans godfather and should be allowed to sabotage the investigation just the same as Paulus

[caesu]

What a tangled web the cage has going! No opinions here, but I did perhaps catch something others might have missed.

ldstlou posted two good items in the previous thread, both on page 48, that I am bringing forward. All bold face added by me, plus the inserted comment in blue.

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

De wereld draait door 04-12-2008 ; Hero Brinkman about statements Rudy Croes

Host mentions two subjects he wants to talk about...two reasons to invite Hero Brinkman...asks Hero with which subject he wants to start. The Antilles?

Hero: Yes, please.

H: Well the case...

Hero: Stay there (as in: only talk about that subject).

H: Stay there?

Hero: Yes, as far as I'm concerned yes.

H: No, I will talk about the terror threaths with you as well, if you don't mind.

H: The minister of Justice, Rudy Croes, has made public now that police chief Jan van der Straten, a Dutchman, had been sleeping the first ten days on Aruba, on purpose, because he's friends with Paul van der Sloot...the father of Joran...and this way the investigation….well actually corrupt from the beginning....you could say. To be short: there wasn't a decent investigation.

Hero: Yeah.

H: What's this?

Hero: I heard this before already; I had gotten a lot of tips from the Aruban community...also from the police that this was going on.

H: To be clear; you are known for your opinion that Aruba and the Dutch Antilles are a corrupt gang. That is a clear point of view and you might get tipped to confirm this. Did you know exactly how it happened...how it's in the papers now?

Hero: They're old stories...but it's the first time a Minister admits this....but only after he got problems with that police chief who was critical concerning the police department on Aruba. But it's completely incomprehensible that he's coming out with this after all those years.

H: That man knew about this all these years!

Hero: Yeah, apparently so.

H: So he's just as corrupt as...

Hero: Well, he just went through an investigation concerning corruption...and I'm not sure there is a verdict about that already...and this is really not that abnormal in Aruba - the Antilles.

H: Does this strengthen your opinion nothing is going right there?

Hero: It's no good there; definitely.

H: So in that way I almost have to congratulate you...you are right.

Hero: No, no... Actually you shouldn't congratulate any Dutchman that pays taxes but actually you should condole them. It is awful that we send millions and millions to those islands and every time it turns out it's a banana republic.

H: What are we going to do about it?

Hero: Sell it.

H: Sell?

Hero: Ah...yeah.

Other guest: That's a good one.

Hero: If there's money to be get out of it....No of course (as in: of course we're not going to sell it).

Hero: We have to pursue a path where those islands become completely independent from the Netherlands. The articles of association has to change completely; new articles of associaton have to be formed in a manner that the island can become completely independent.

H: This case of Natalee Holloway, which has become a case with mythical proportions by now by Peter R. de Vries.....should we do something about that?

Hero: Yes, I do think so. I think we need to get to the bottom of it.

H: How are we going to do this?

Hero: I've requested a letter from the Ministry, because of the statements from Rudy Croes I want to know what the government thinks about this....if it's correct. If the accusations of Minister Croes are correct; for example that a Dutch Minister requested 3 years ago that the fact that Joran was a Dutchman should be played down...let's..

H: Who could that have been? He didn't say which Minister...that can only be one though, right?

Hero: I'm going to ask the government...and they will surely answer me.

H: Who do you think it is?

Hero: I'm not going to tell you that.

H: Don't you think it's Hirsch Ballin? {I *think* this *might* be that elusive name that Jossy dropped on Greta's show - msmarple}

Hero: I think a lot..and I might think  the same as you but I'm not going to say (what and the way he said it: he thinks it's Hirsch Ballin...MO)

H: A parliamentary investigation...you mentioned that before as well when it's about the Antilles & Aruba...you're still thinking about that?

Hero: Well, look...I just want to get to the bottom of this…but first we'll have a debate that will come from the letter I sent to the Ministry....If I don't get answers then I think we need to have a parliamentary investigation.

H: What do you think of the case Joran van der Sloot? We've heard so many stories by now...Peter R. de Vries did his best.

Hero: Yes, absolutely.

H: What do you think? Where is Natalee Holloway?

Hero: I'm afraid she's in the ocean.

H: Then the theory of Peter R. de Vries...the car conversations are correct according to you?

Hero: Uhmm..yeah, I do think so. But again, we can think about what possibly happened.....

H: Yeah...I was just curious what you think happened.

Hero: Well, that is what I think. But that's not really important...there has to come an investigation. I would like the Dutch government to send the National Police Internal Investigations Department to Aruba; to at least investigate the claims of Minister Croes. If that's true it could give a new opening in this awful case.

H: That the father is involved as well?

Hero: Yes. That is a good possibility.

Other guest: Then you also get that this police chief Van der Straten is also involved then...in fact you get a whole new cesspool.

Hero: Yeah, but again...it's the Antilles...and the Antilles are on big cesspool.

Other guest: that's why I think it should stay with us....in some ways it's a good soap...every time I hear stories about that banana republic there...in the end we are responsible for it......you can't say: sell it.....we need to get rid of it. You can't make them independent.

Hero: You can make it independent.

Other guest: ....(can't hear what he says)

Hero: I am convinced, if you don't give the people money and say...well you have a lot of debt...(Hero gets interrupted by the other guest a bit...can't hear what he's saying)...we are willing to invest 2 billion...because that's what we're planning to do; 2,5 billion we are going to invest....we are willing to do that but in the end you need to be completely independent from the Netherlands....than they will go along with that. Holland sold itself way to cheap....that's the complete story.

* * *

… plus this from amigoe.com - I am a bit surprised that it was published:

http://www.amigoe.com/artman/publish/artikel_50147.php

Holloway-case messed up by nepotism
4 Dec, 2008, 10:08 (GMT -04:00)


ORANJESTAD -- Jan van der Straten has messed up the investigation in the first ten days after it got out that the American teenager Natalee Holloway had disappeared. He helped his 'friend' Paul van der Sloot to protect his suspected son Joran.


Minister Rudy Croes of Justice speaks frankly about the initial stage of the Natalee Holloway investigation.

Justice-minister Rudy Croes says this now that he feels attacked by the former chief of police and the first investigation leader of the case. Van der Straten has criticized certain aspects of the Police Corps (KPA) earlier this week. "He has also compared our Guarda Nos Costa with a politically driven group à la Chávez (Venezuelan president)", says Croes. "He is an activist of the opposition party AVP, that's why, but he forgets that it is the Natalee Holloway-case that was driven by favouritism."

Wait till retirement
"I actually wanted to wait till my retirement next year to bring this into the open", continues the minister. "But the time has come to tell the truth. When the case came to light, I heard Van der Straten say literally: 'I can't let this happen to my friend Paul'. And then during the first ten days, there were heavy telephone traffic between him and Paul van der Sloot."

According to Croes, Van der Straten has perhaps consciously deployed the so-called flexiteam after the disappearance of Natalee. "He said in May 2005: 'I can solve this with my flexiteam'. As everybody knows, the flexiteam was a team that was put into action when the regular police team was over-occupied; for example during carnival.
A detective could be included in the team, but it was no police-team that was capable of doing an investigation. Why didn't he call in the taya-team (police officers with a lot of expertise and experience – red.)?"

There are more things that went wrong. "Why was a beach-bum accused at that time, who has been a choller before? He had supposedly done it, while internally it was known that he hadn't done it. Very special is also the fact that the Dutch language was used during Joran's interrogation, while he is fluent in Papiamento, same as our detective. Our people could have done their work much better if the conversations were done in their own language. Why was he so privileged? Simply because it were 'Dutch-friends'; all three of them: Joran, Paul, and Jan. Don't forget that a Dutch minister had asked me at that time not to mention that Joran is a European Dutch citizen. I won't say who this person is, but if by any chance I have to mention his name, I definitely will. We felt abandoned by the Netherlands when Aruba was so devastated by the case. I have told this to the Dutch premier Balkenende, state secretary Bijleveld (Kingdom Relations), and minister Hirsch-Ballin (Justice). But until now, everybody has remained quit and has let the world besmear Aruba's name. They abandoned us and let us suffer."

Croes is of the opinion that the solving of the case is with the three Dutchmen Van der Straten and Paul and Joran van der Sloot. He says that a new investigation team must come that consists of Arubans, Antilleans, and Americans. "Why did it never occur to them to remove Jan van der Straten from his position after those ten ill-bred days? In the case of Marlies van der Kouwe in Bonaire, police officers were taken off the case because they have failed. I challenge Van der Straten and Paul van der Sloot to come up with clarifications, so that Aruba's name can be cleared from this mess (porkeria).

 

it could be Hirsch Ballin.
that would be interesting because the relation he has with Rudy and Hendrik Croes is interesting.
goes back to the IRT-affair. i posted a lot about this a few months ago.
Hirsch Ballin had to resign as justice minister over this. but currently he is justice minister again.

but... from 2005-2006 he wasn't justice minister. then justice minister was Piet Hein Donner. same political party though.
it also could be Johan Remkes. he was minster of Home Affairs (incl. Police) until 2007.
Remkes accused Aruba of blackmailing in a parlement debate recently.

or Rudy Croes is just making things up. he hates anything Dutch.
no doubt this includes Jan van der Straten, Paul van der Sloot, Hans Mos and any Dutch minister.
he said he wanted to rip apart his Dutch passport.

also this week the MEP started their 2009 political election campaign.
then this Round Table Conference 15th december Aruba wants to blackmail by threatening to derail it.

i hope a Dutch of American news crew goes to interview him soon.
this month is a excellent time for that. i bet Rudy is right now at a stage to spill more beans.

[Anna]

I believe Van der Straten will not go down without a fight, Janet, and he'll drag anybody he can down with him. That opens up a big ole can of worms for a lot of people on Aruba and others like Jannsen who have fled the island.

If the Dutch investigate, which I believe they will be forced to do, Jan will not be the only one that gets looked at. Ben Vocking, Jannsen, Jacobs, the Dutch judges, all need to be looked at.

Holland and Hans are getting smeared big time in the international media. There are so many corruption angles Aruba is getting hit by right now it boggles the mind. Hans' pathetic strategy to once again closed the case is, once again, being derailed.

The beauty of all this is barrage is: how can they even think about closing the case now?

I agree and ... that is why I suspect that Jan van der Straaten is on board with the Aruban agenda.  Obviously ... he has been compensated to take the fall.  Obviously ... the consequences he will receive for obstructing the investigation has been negotiated.

Think about it Dayhiker.  Do you honestly believe that Rudy Croes would implicate Jan van der Straaten if he thought for one minute that there would be a domino effect?  Hey ... Rudy Croes himself would most likely be one of the dominos in that long line that would fall when the first domino ... the Jan van der Straaten domino is pushed.

IMO

Janet

Janet, this is the highest profile international missing person/murder case certainly in the last decade. Van der Straten has got to be in his mid-to-late 60s. Do you think he's going to throw whatever legacy of his career he has in the toilet and spend the last few years of his life in KIA for money he can't even spend?

I don't think any of them including Uncle Jan thinks for a second that there would be actual jail terms involved no matter of what they are accused.

Note we have not seen so much as an interrogation thus far from all of this.  For that matter, he could just leave beyond their reach to somewhere there is not jurisdiction, lol.

I don't believe for one moment any of them including Uncle Jan actually fear spending a night behind bars following a conviction even.

jmo

[AZLady]

Rudy Croes Is A Buffoon

Croes is of the opinion that the solving of the case is with the three Dutchmen Van der Straten and Paul and Joran van der Sloot. He says that a new investigation team must come that consists of Arubans, Antilleans, and Americans. "Why did it never occur to them to remove Jan van der Straten from his position after those ten ill-bred days?

Who is "them", Rudy? 

Who are "they"?

"They" are YOU.

You are the MINISTER OF JUSTICE.  You have the power to order an investigation.  Make it so.  Order it.  Get on the phone and call John Kelly and request a reccomendation for an independent and objective investigative force composed of AMERICAN law enforcement personnnel.  Do it.  Do it now.

Who are you trying to shift blame to?

Who is "them"?

.

Rudy, you can make it happen if you want it to happen.  The FBI is a phone call away.  They are ready, willing and able to be a part of an investigative team on Aruba.  They need your invitation.  They needed your invitation 3 1/2 years ago, too.

[SS]

So, Kyle did communicate his concerns about a coverup and possible destruction of evidence to the family at least before March 20.  At least that's how I interpret this post from Private Eye.

private eye beth's brother  March 20, 2008
Kyle I specifically mentioned the blue denim and the fact that would be the material of which the skirt was made,

Kyle- I emailed Beth your concerns and have suggested to her that she contact the appropriate people on the Persistence, including yourself, and attempt to reconcile as best they can the material the crew saw recovered from the cage versus what they received. I specifically mentioned the blue denim and the fact that would be the material of which the skirt was made, and reminded her that the press release said that the material did not match her blouse. I also pointed out that in the December 30 photo there appeared to be a skull and in the January 7, it did not look at all like a skull. But I did think I noticed a second object in one of the zip lock bags that could possibly be the object that resembled a skull, possibly. I am a little amazed that the denim looks remarkably NOT deteriorated. Mostly I was trying to pique her interest to get her to contact the appropriate people. I think Dave worked closely with the owner of the boat, so he may well have already done this. But I know Beth appreciates the heads up, as do I. You are a good man. I did tell her my main concern was that you were concerned, and that I respect and trust your judgment enough for her to investigate this. Thanks.

AZ - I could be wrong, but I think this was when Kermit got involved.  Obviously PI didn't know much about denim or he wouldn't have been asking about it on the SM Forum.

No, this appears to be the time that Kyle expressed his concern about a cover up to Private Eye and he passed this along to Beth. 

PI says:
Kyle- I emailed Beth your concerns and have suggested to her that she contact the appropriate people on the Persistence, including yourself, and attempt to reconcile as best they can the material the crew saw recovered from the cage versus what they received.

Am I incorrect, or was this email dated almost three months after the contents were photographed?  Three months later, Beth and PI were finally getting clarifications about the denim in the cage?

I think that I could undertsand all of this better if this was an official law enforcement investigation where the evidence had to be held close to the vest to benefit a public prosecuter.  This was an independent search with millions of Americans cheering them on.  As PI put it, why did the game have to be fixed?   

[SS]

So, Kyle did communicate his concerns about a coverup and possible destruction of evidence to the family at least before March 20.  At least that's how I interpret this post from Private Eye.

private eye beth's brother  March 20, 2008
Kyle I specifically mentioned the blue denim and the fact that would be the material of which the skirt was made,

Kyle- I emailed Beth your concerns and have suggested to her that she contact the appropriate people on the Persistence, including yourself, and attempt to reconcile as best they can the material the crew saw recovered from the cage versus what they received. I specifically mentioned the blue denim and the fact that would be the material of which the skirt was made, and reminded her that the press release said that the material did not match her blouse. I also pointed out that in the December 30 photo there appeared to be a skull and in the January 7, it did not look at all like a skull. But I did think I noticed a second object in one of the zip lock bags that could possibly be the object that resembled a skull, possibly. I am a little amazed that the denim looks remarkably NOT deteriorated. Mostly I was trying to pique her interest to get her to contact the appropriate people. I think Dave worked closely with the owner of the boat, so he may well have already done this. But I know Beth appreciates the heads up, as do I. You are a good man. I did tell her my main concern was that you were concerned, and that I respect and trust your judgment enough for her to investigate this. Thanks.

AZ - I could be wrong, but I think this was when Kermit got involved.  Obviously PI didn't know much about denim or he wouldn't have been asking about it on the SM Forum.

No, this appears to be the time that Kyle expressed his concern about a cover up to Private Eye and he passed this along to Beth. 

PI says:
Kyle- I emailed Beth your concerns and have suggested to her that she contact the appropriate people on the Persistence, including yourself, and attempt to reconcile as best they can the material the crew saw recovered from the cage versus what they received.

I thought Kermit said that she was the one who finally sent the photographs to Beth, because Kyle didn't do it??? 

[Anna]

Rudy Croes Is A Buffoon

Croes is of the opinion that the solving of the case is with the three Dutchmen Van der Straten and Paul and Joran van der Sloot. He says that a new investigation team must come that consists of Arubans, Antilleans, and Americans. "Why did it never occur to them to remove Jan van der Straten from his position after those ten ill-bred days?

Who is "them", Rudy? 

Who are "they"?

"They" are YOU.

You are the MINISTER OF JUSTICE.  You have the power to order an investigation.  Make it so.  Order it.  Get on the phone and call John Kelly and request a reccomendation for an independent and objective investigative force composed of AMERICAN law enforcement personnnel.  Do it.  Do it now.

Who are you trying to shift blame to?

Who is "them"?

.

I think that they did remove Van der Straaten from the case early on
and put Dompig in charge.
Van der Straaten sued to get his position back as head of the investigation
One of Paulus' judge buddies put Van der Straaten back in charge of the case.

The Police union, which was already threatening to strike when Natalee disappeared, are the ones who put vd Straten back in charge and say they will NEVER cooperate with any investigation of ALE.

[Anna]

I posted article from mid June by head of police union yesterday.  Apparently no one bothered to read it so guess posting it again would also be waste of time.

[Tamikosmom]

So, Kyle did communicate his concerns about a coverup and possible destruction of evidence to the family at least before March 20.  At least that's how I interpret this post from Private Eye.

private eye beth's brother  March 20, 2008
Kyle I specifically mentioned the blue denim and the fact that would be the material of which the skirt was made,

Kyle- I emailed Beth your concerns and have suggested to her that she contact the appropriate people on the Persistence, including yourself, and attempt to reconcile as best they can the material the crew saw recovered from the cage versus what they received. I specifically mentioned the blue denim and the fact that would be the material of which the skirt was made, and reminded her that the press release said that the material did not match her blouse. I also pointed out that in the December 30 photo there appeared to be a skull and in the January 7, it did not look at all like a skull. But I did think I noticed a second object in one of the zip lock bags that could possibly be the object that resembled a skull, possibly. I am a little amazed that the denim looks remarkably NOT deteriorated. Mostly I was trying to pique her interest to get her to contact the appropriate people. I think Dave worked closely with the owner of the boat, so he may well have already done this. But I know Beth appreciates the heads up, as do I. You are a good man. I did tell her my main concern was that you were concerned, and that I respect and trust your judgment enough for her to investigate this. Thanks.

Thank you AZLady.

I honestly believe that Kyle was a pawn in the discovery and distruction of evidence by the Arubans as well as a trader within his midst on the Persistence.

Kyle's posts imply he was very naive about the joint search effort that included those within the Aruban administration whose objective was not justice for Natalee Holloway.  A few on this forum tried to warn him but to no avail.  In his opinion ... the Arubans and the Persistence's goals to further justice for an American citizen did not conflict.

However ... Kyle's emails to Kermit do indicate that he did eventually clue in.  Kyle did submit to the FBI five of the images of the cage that were not turned over to the ALE but ... withheld others.  Kermit claimed it was Kyle's initial intention to turn these images over Beth but ... then he had a change of heart and ... began negotiating with the networks.

Rather than Kyle sharing in emails to Kermit regarding his concerns in respect to the chain of custody of the evidence and ... the ROV images that the ALE did not have the opportunity to destroyed ... he should have been shared instead with Beth.  Case Close!

It is my contention that the search effort of Persistence was compromised the minute the Arubans were included in the effort without any official ******* from the United States administration on board.

Janet

+++++++

oceanexploration
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #715 1/25 -
« Reply #103 on: January 26, 2008, 12:38:25 PM »

Thought you all may find this interesting if you're willing to accept it-

To date, the Aruban police and dive team has been a tremendous help.  They've honestly done a great job. Over the last month we've established a very good working relationship based on openness and trust.  Most of the relationship success was due to getting the media out of the way and working together shoulder to shoulder over time.  We've helped each other however and whenever we can.  They've treated us with decency and respect and we have treated them as friends and allies, which they are. Most of the police and divers are new since this case started and both eager and careful to do things right.  I wish we had a month ahead of the project just to establish the relationships and trust. I know many of you would likely doubt this view, but it's based on the experiences in the field of the entire search team. I too was extremely worried, paranoid, and suspecting in the beginning.  Now, it's clear we're all working towards a common goal. 

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2539.msg332457;topicseen#msg332457


ocean exploration (Kyle)
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #744 3/19 -
« Reply #201 on: March 19, 2008, 08:21:47 PM »

We had little option other than to have the Aruban dive division recover the samples and bring them back under their care.  Remember we are Americans working in Aruban waters, subject to their laws, invitation, and blessing.  Our hands are tied for the most part. I personally was extremely uncomfortable with the chain of custody, being that we weren't a part of it, but I was powerless to do anything about it.   The samples were photographed in detail by one Aruban diver and the other two investigated the contents of the trap, the dimensions, the rigging, and what surrounded the trap.  From the video, it looked like they did a diligent and careful job with the samples and the underwater photography.  I don't know who has these pictures, but I must assume ALE.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2721.msg366857#msg366857


private eye (Beth Holloway's Brother)
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #746 4/4
« Reply #499 on: April 09, 2008, 12:39:50 AM »

If I understood Kyle correctly, and that would be that the Arubans retrieved and possessed all finds, not sharing anything with the crew, then that effort was a waste of time and effort. The only thing it could have accomplished was to locate additional evidence for the Arubans to destroy. I am not sure if that was the protocol out of Aruba's waters though. The effort was superb, but the game was fixed.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2769.msg372245;topicseen#msg372245
 

[Anna]

Why would Jossy say the Dutch Minister of Justice Hans Ballin was the witness who saw Joran the night Natalee disappeared?

I am totally lost on that one as well as the cage.

[AZLady]

Well, we know the family was told after the Jan 7 dive that the cage was not related to Natalee.  Then, sometime between then and March 20 Kyle communicated his concerns about a coverup to to PI who passed that to Beth.  People have legitimately questioned why Kyle waited two months to communicate his concerns, and then why he contacted PI who contacted Beth instead of going directly to the family and/or FBI.  I don't know why, but I admit there may have been reasons.  At least this is my understanding now.