Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 - 12/6/08

[Frank]

Buckshot,

Good advice. While I think the cage story is important, it's more important to go back to the beginning.

In fact, I think more focus should be on the van der sloot house.

Jan van der straaten "saw" the evidence, meaning, I believe, that he saw Natalee.

Karin Janssen and Jan van der straaten gave Paulus 10 days. This alone is so incredibly sickening.

[Edward]

OK Jug.. I love to see Paulus sweat .. Stick to VanStratten direct involvement..

It is Paulus.. Always was ..

[MumInOhio]

Kermit says Natalee remains found in cage.
Others, who claim to have spoken to family, say that Natalee remains not found in cage.

Question: Who is right?
(Remember: Kermit never lies..., Is the family lying? Why?)

second time for this post. Not sure what the point or the question really is?

Not sure either Lisa...Good Morning...

My point from the previous thread was...

Please read the posts that Kermit has quoted "In Context"

Sure Caps mentioned 3 ponds, maybe more...he didn't say Natalee was in any of them from what I can recall.

Kermit posted yesterday that experts said remains in the cage were Natalee.  I think it is a pretty good question to ask if the remains are Natalee or not since we are told the family says they are not.

Family supports Caps but which theory as he first said all Dave had to do was come down and claim the body.  Posted that several times.  Good thing Dave didn't.  At one point Natalee was even under Lorenzo's new driveway!  It was exhausting to dig all that up by hand, I can tell you!  Just kidding.

But theories have abounded that came to nothing and even the legendary Shango has given information that was just plain wrong. 

Keep in mind the massive misinformation campaign and it's more easy to understand how wrong theories can be born from all we have been told and led to believe.  The Strategic Task Force did a very good job and they started on the day after Natalee disappeared and were in full swing within ten days to two weeks to insure the truth was totally obfuscated.  I believe the DEA agent Eric Williams may have been working for them from the get go even when Beth first arrived but JMO.

Still, I just want to know which experts said the remains matched Natalee.  I still see a service cap instead of skirt in the photos.  So I think something of interest was there, just not sure who or what.

Thanks Anna...I recall Caps' posts about the family...one was she was going to be moved on February 3rd. He said he was given wrong info when I asked.

Thanks also for the reminder on Eric Williams, that is where I was at when all this started. Him, Julia and my good friend Charles.

I am sitting on the fence on all of this as I really can't make up my mind.

[ldstlou]

LDSTLOU - in a due respect, we can focus on more than one issue at a time.  The fact the Rudy is calling out Van der Straaten is not lost on any of us.  We have not lost sight nor dismissed the possibility of FINALLY something happening, some kind of justice in Aruba.

That said, it has no bearing on side discussions of how we got to to this point and where Natalee was disposed of/hidden.

I am done. When in the heck did I say NOT to focus on something???!!! Let me reiterate!!!! kermit is saying in one breath the family has Natalee's body and is hiding that fact from the world. In another breath that the ALE has her body and Kyle was complicit in that cover up. I am saying BULLSHIT to both!!!! Why am I saying bullshit? Because I asked Jug and gave you his answer...and you know I asked him Klaas. Now the references that I am a liar...and the family is lying...and I simply STATING!!!! what Jug asked me to convey to you all this morning...to pray and focus on van der straaten!!! I never once said what to discuss or not to discuss...with all due respect!

[klaasend]

Posted at RU:

K_Meine Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:10 am

   
Is it worth it?

The latest revelations by Rudy Croes probably doesn't shock many people. IMO, Van der Statten and others like KJ have been "knowledgeable" of what transpired very early on yet hoped, like many others, that people would just forget about this whole situation. How nice it was for them to be "relocated" elsewhere while others, namely the Aruban people, were left to deal with this festering mass of bullsh*t.

Are not most, if not all, people involved in this little dilemma Dutch? VDS's, Van der Stratten, Karin J, etc. Shouldn't The Netherlands aid Aruba with this situation and admit any culpability of its people or is it simply not worth it to them?

It appears this case has not simply gone away nor will it any time soon. There has been mixed reporting on how well Aruba has fared through this situation. However, it might behoove The Netherlands to assist in gathering all those involved initially and straighten this mess out once and for all. Aruba is way to nice a place to be unfairly subjected to someone elses lack of responsibility.

[SS]

ss
Possible..
Natalee was placed in Jalitza's crypt and Jaltiza was placed in the fish cage with Natalee's clothes, including her denim skirt

Jalitza Wever dies june 2 2005 buried on june 6th 2005 born 1962 =  Just 43 years old



Why she died nobody knows.
Further research needed by Aruban citizens to identify cause of death and family members.
Just bringing this thought over.

Edward - we searched the obituaries and there was basically nothing on Jalitza.  My questions are related to the photograph, which we can't refute.  In the photograph are partial human remains, what appears to be a blue denim skirt, and a white shoe with blue stripes.  These are all important articles in Natalee's case.  I don't believe in coincidences, especially when it involves Aruba. 

We did a lot of research on the sneaker and pretty much eliminated the solid white K-Swiss that Urine was wearing in the Greta interview.  He did have a white pair with blue stripes and in one of his several police statements about the shoe, he did describe that a white sneaker with blue stripes was left on the beach.  The witness saw him walking from the pond with only one sneaker and Caps has told us that he lost a sneaker in the pond while washing himself off.   Beth reported that she was told that a bloody sneaker was found at the Sloot home.  I have been asking recently if we can tell whether it is a right or left sneaker in the trap and did the witness specify which shoe Urine was missing?  My question is why is there only one sneaker in the cage photograph?

The denim fabric has been discussed many times by Kyle, PI, etc. as being in the trap.  We can see it in the photographs of the evidence bags.  Natalee was wearing a denim skirt the night she disappeared.

The family seems pretty certain that Natalee's remains weren't in the cage.  Who was in the cage, if not Natalee?  We have blown up the pictures and identified a skull and what looks like a pelvic bone.  Someone was in that cage.

Caps is/was pretty certain that Natalee was put in someone's crypt when Beth started to put the heat on during the first week.  As Shango said... she's hidden in plain sight.  Caps felt that it was possibly the Masonic Cemetery because quite a few of the dirty hands are members of the Masonic Lodge and they would have had access to the cemetery and burial process.

It wouldn't matter why Jalitza died.  She was a woman who resembled Natalee and a switch could easily have been made.  Because of a lack of funeral information and an obituary, Jalitza doesn't seem to have been a well known person.  ALE themselves reported that Natalee had probably been moved several times during that first week.  It's unlikely that anything was put in the ocean that first night.  If we combined the information from Caps, the family denial that Natalee was in the cage, and the photographs of the cage contents would it be possible that the Elders switched Jalitza for Natalee?  If they decided to deposit Jalitza in the cage, would they have also added some important evidence like Natalee's clothes and the remaining bloody sneaker that wasn't lost in the pond?  I don't think that ALE ever expected Persistence to arrive and scan the ocean floor three years later and this would be a way to get a body and evidence off the island without a trace.  Are these possibly some of the activities that Paulass paid for?

[Edward]

One thought I have on this gal Jalitza
Is the Holiday Inn video showing a gal who looked like Natalee. Beth took a look at the video and discounted it as NOT Natalee..
Was it actually Jalitza on that video ?
Part of an early plan to deceive and then eliminated..
Just a thought.

Edward, I believe the video Beth said was not Natalee was taken in a jewelry store (maybe in a hotel lobby, if I recall).  The video in the Holiday Inn casino of Natalee at the Blackjack table was identified as Natalee, as were videos of her walking into the casino.  Now, which video are you referencing?

The hotel lobby is the video I am referring to. thank you

[Tamikosmom]

JOSSY MANSUR

Holloway Cover-up By Aruban Law Enforcement?
Friday, December 05, 2008

VAN SUSTEREN: Finally, maybe, the Aruban Justice Minister is talking. It has been three and a half years. Joining by phone from Aruba is Jossy Mansur, publisher and managing editor of Diario Newspaper.

Jossy, what did the justice minister say, and does it have any impact whatsoever in Aruba?

JOSSY MANSUR, DIARIO NEWSPAPER IN ARUBA: He is saying a lot of important things that have a lot of impact in Aruba. He has openly and publicly accused the ex-chief of police that he refused to arrest Joran van der Sloot because he was the son of his best friend, Paulus.

VAN SUSTEREN: And does that make any difference to anybody in Aruba?

MANSUR: It does make a difference to many people here in Aruba, of course, because coming from the minister of justice, who was in charge of the police--he is the director of the police corps and (INAUDIBLE) that occupied themselves with the disappearance of Natalee. Of course it's important.

VAN SUSTEREN: Does he have any proof that the chief of police did this or that there was a cover-up?

MANSUR: He does not have any proof as such outside of other declarations(ph) of other people who have heard the same kind of statement before.

VAN SUSTEREN: Is our interview with Joran van der Sloot pushing any investigation further. Are they taking it at all seriously because they still haven't asked for it? They haven't asked for the records that we think could either prove or disprove. But is it having any impact whatsoever in Aruba?

MANSUR: I think it had a lot of impact worldwide. We saw this man lie again, lie his head off. He doesn't care if it's publicly or whatever. And I think that it has not stirred the prosecution to the degree that they should be after him by now.

VAN SUSTEREN: In the conversation that we had with Joran, he claims that the voice on the tape is his father. And obviously the prosecutor could prove that or disprove that. He could use subpoena power and do that. We can't get a first-generation tape from his father and do that.

Is it likely that the prosecutor will do that? Because, frankly, if it turns out that is his voice, his father under what he said is up to his eyeballs in something.

MANSUR: Of course. We know he was involved from the beginning. And after the new wave of things(ph), Mr. Herman, who saw Joran walking with his clothes all muddy. And then later he was saw him in the car with Paulus van der Sloot.

And we assume, and it has been certified by this man that the man who took Joran van der Sloot to his home that night after Natalee disappeared was his father. So he was involved from the beginning.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,462349,00.html

[Anna]

WoW!  I totally missed Kermit saying the family had remains!  Does anyone have a copy of that post?  Interesting. . . .

And I will say again that obstruction of justice is likely illegal in Aruba but actual corruption laws had never been enacted, very oddly.

One would think this would place Aruba directly under the Dutch system until they DID enact certain laws, right?  But it is Aruba after all.

[klaasend]

LDSTLOU - in a due respect, we can focus on more than one issue at a time.  The fact the Rudy is calling out Van der Straaten is not lost on any of us.  We have not lost sight nor dismissed the possibility of FINALLY something happening, some kind of justice in Aruba.

That said, it has no bearing on side discussions of how we got to to this point and where Natalee was disposed of/hidden.

I am done. When in the heck did I say NOT to focus on something???!!! Let me reiterate!!!! kermit is saying in one breath the family has Natalee's body and is hiding that fact from the world. In another breath that the ALE has her body and Kyle was complicit in that cover up. I am saying BULLSHIT to both!!!! Why am I saying bullshit? Because I asked Jug and gave you his answer...and you know I asked him Klaas. Now the references that I am a liar...and the family is lying...and I simply STATING!!!! what Jug asked me to convey to you all this morning...to pray and focus on van der straaten!!! I never once said what to discuss or not to discuss...with all due respect!

I'm not as sure as you are that Kermit is saying that Beth/Jug and Dave have Natalee's body.  That said, any suggestions (besides emailing the embassy) on how we keep the focus on Van der Straaten?  Looks like Rudy has taken the first step. Is there something we should be doing that will help?  Any ideas?

[MumInOhio]

Thanks Lala's for reminding me...

Here is the link for some early discussions in Shango on Clyde Burke. Kermie used a post to back up one of his posts...

Ask Lala's and Finngirl...It is all about context... 

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=1952.2860

Maybe you have to explain the context...

Good Morning!...Shango 101 Context?

Morning, Mum.

Yes, can you do that in 20 words or less?

No, I meant that it seems to me that you may have to explain what Caps meant when her referred to Clyde Burke in that post.

Caps meant Clyde was Simian...that is what was being discussed. Understanding Shango and then whom was who.

The idea had been thrown around previously that Clyde was Simian.

[Dayhiker]

Buckshot,

Good advice. While I think the cage story is important, it's more important to go back to the beginning.

In fact, I think more focus should be on the van der sloot house.

Jan van der straaten "saw" the evidence, meaning, I believe, that he saw Natalee.

Karin Janssen and Jan van der straaten gave Paulus 10 days. This alone is so incredibly sickening.

IMO Frank they've got enough to arrest Van der Straten RIGHT NOW for obstruction of justice. There are two eye witness accounts of Jan saying he couldn't arrest his best friend's son. They need to haul Straten in and let him start spilling the beans and then the house of cards will start to crumble.

[Anna]

Could Jossy be saying Geerman or Gearman as that is a very common name in Aruba.  Mr. Geerman?

[AZLady]

ldstlou, your last post clearly shows why some here have wondered why certain posters rant and rave and attempt to discredit Kermit's theory and squash any conversation about the cage's contents.  Aside from your multiple exclamation points, capitalized epithets, and verbal foot stomping and tantrum throwing, your post wildly exaggerates Kermit's theory.  Do you expect us to give this type of post any credibility? 

[Dayhiker]

Posted at RU:

K_Meine Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:10 am

   
Is it worth it?

The latest revelations by Rudy Croes probably doesn't shock many people. IMO, Van der Statten and others like KJ have been "knowledgeable" of what transpired very early on yet hoped, like many others, that people would just forget about this whole situation. How nice it was for them to be "relocated" elsewhere while others, namely the Aruban people, were left to deal with this festering mass of bullsh*t.

Are not most, if not all, people involved in this little dilemma Dutch? VDS's, Van der Stratten, Karin J, etc. Shouldn't The Netherlands aid Aruba with this situation and admit any culpability of its people or is it simply not worth it to them?

It appears this case has not simply gone away nor will it any time soon. There has been mixed reporting on how well Aruba has fared through this situation. However, it might behoove The Netherlands to assist in gathering all those involved initially and straighten this mess out once and for all. Aruba is way to nice a place to be unfairly subjected to someone elses lack of responsibility.

Wow. Did this person get banned for their post? 

[BUCKSHOT]

LDSTLOU - in a due respect, we can focus on more than one issue at a time.  The fact the Rudy is calling out Van der Straaten is not lost on any of us.  We have not lost sight nor dismissed the possibility of FINALLY something happening, some kind of justice in Aruba.

That said, it has no bearing on side discussions of how we got to to this point and where Natalee was disposed of/hidden.

I am done. When in the heck did I say NOT to focus on something???!!! Let me reiterate!!!! kermit is saying in one breath the family has Natalee's body and is hiding that fact from the world. In another breath that the ALE has her body and Kyle was complicit in that cover up. I am saying BULLSHIT to both!!!! Why am I saying bullshit? Because I asked Jug and gave you his answer...and you know I asked him Klaas. Now the references that I am a liar...and the family is lying...and I simply STATING!!!! what Jug asked me to convey to you all this morning...to pray and focus on van der straaten!!! I never once said what to discuss or not to discuss...with all due respect!

LDSTLOU-
No disrepect to you, whatsoever. I do not know you. I believe that you have good intentions, as we all do. No need to argue. I still presume that no one knows the exact truth as to what happened that night. As others have said, all we can do is hash out theories, and either corroborate them or discard them.

My question did not mean to stir trouble. All I was saying is this: Kermit asserted that NH remains were in the cage. The Arubans, yet again, conspired to cover up some aspect of the truth, concerning the search. Other posters convey to us that the family is aware of Kermit's assertions and find them to be untrue. Only one of these two theories can be true. Her remains were found in the cage or they were not. I do not know the answer to this question; therefore, I felt the need to have my question answered. Yes or no. I do not assert that NH's family has the contents of the cage. Quite frankly, I do not know who possesses the contents, nor if there were even contents to possess.

Good for those who have all of the answers and choose not to share them. It is certainly their perogative(s). I do not know the answers, like many, and seek to know them as this case has captivated my attention since it has happened.

Our opinions, comments, etc are all valued here on this forum. Agree or disagree, I respect everyone's input here. This forum is priceless to me, as it allow for sharing of information. If I asked a stupid question, allow me to apologize. I have always been told that there was no such thing as a stupid question.

If there are reasons for keeping things hush-hush, shame on me as I stated in my previous post. I will sit back and wait for things to unfold. Meanwhile, I will go stick my nose in the corner as punishment for asking such a stupid question.

 

[MumInOhio]

Could Jossy be saying Geerman or Gearman as that is a very common name in Aruba.  Mr. Geerman?

Even Werleman...that was mentioned yesterday.

[Anna]

Buckshot,

Good advice. While I think the cage story is important, it's more important to go back to the beginning.

In fact, I think more focus should be on the van der sloot house.

Jan van der straaten "saw" the evidence, meaning, I believe, that he saw Natalee.

Karin Janssen and Jan van der straaten gave Paulus 10 days. This alone is so incredibly sickening.

IMO Frank they've got enough to arrest Van der Straten RIGHT NOW for obstruction of justice. There are two eye witness accounts of Jan saying he couldn't arrest his best friend's son. They need to haul Straten in and let him start spilling the beans and then the house of cards will start to crumble.

You have both been around since very early.  Do you recall that the first translation of what vd Straten actually said was "Because I have seen the evidence and you haven't!" 

Then later it got changed, as did so many things, to having seen the investigative evidence or investigation.  But originally it was translated as though he meant he had seen the proof that Natalee was dead.

Same as no corpse, no case morphed into no body, no case as it just sounds so much nicer than what was actually said.

MO

[Edward]

Julia Refreno was pushing the Holiday Inn video.. Beth refuted it..

[Dayhiker]

Wonder who in Aruba has Paulus' phone records?

Betcha Rudy does!! I hope he does after announcing he knows of all the phone calls between paulus and him.

Dontcha know he's got them, along with the telephone wiretap documents that specify Paulus had "two contacts" with Natalee that night.