Natalee Case Discussion #818 4/30/09 - 5/17/09

[jen3560]

Now that we know about the CLW Mark Purcell/ATA/AHATA connection, what I'm wondering is when the mission of the Persistence became tainted? 

 

Helen - my thoughts (though I cannot prove anything.............YET) is that this mission became tainted long before they ever even arrived in Aruba.

Remember - LEAK said Jug was aware that the Persistence's main purpose was oil related.

Remember - the Persistence took the place of two other ships that were to be going - and this happened at the last minute of preparations.

Jen, I don't know why Persistence thought they had to hide their other purpose in being in Aruban waters. Trying to make a buck and/or mapping out oil exploration targets isn't exactly E-V-I-L. So why not be up front about it from the get-go? I think they made a serious tactical and credibility error right there in not being totally honest about their purpose.

Multi-tasking is not a heinous crime so it really wasn't necessary to hide the fact that they were doing other things in addition to "Oh, by the way, if we happen to run across any bodies we'll let you know..."

Why did they set themselves up this way to be exposed as the exploiters of the memory of a dead girl and the heartbreak of her parents?

And even being nasty exploiters like that, they still probably had little criminal liability for what they did UNTIL they began soliciting money from the general public to finance their endeavor for ONE purpose when, once that purpose had been dispensed with, they still remained for yet ANOTHER purpose. At that point, they had no right to ask for money to search for Natalee if, in fact, they were pretty sure that the last time they saw "Natalee," she was being sped away in baggies in an Aruban LE boat.

I would like to see Aruban LE bring forth in a public press conference the contents of those baggies and having allowed FBI forensics experts to examine said contents, explain what they are. Why hasn't Aruba done this? You would think they would be especially keen to do that if they knew they did NOT have any human remains in those baggies.

And why would any individual or group of people, online and off, react with not mere hostility but something approaching full-on rage and stalking behavior against American citizens (and others) who just followed the Logic Trail to see where it would lead? I can't even think of people like that as being "fellow Natalee supporters" because I now suspect they never were. I think it's becoming pretty obvious that scum like that never was in it for Natalee and her family. Creating discord and dissension seems to have been their main goal and I can't even pity the once-genuine Natalee supporters who've fallen in line with the scum because the truth has been in front of their eyes for a long time now. They know better. Sure they do.

Just ranting here, I guess. But, it is Monday morning and my arthritis medication hasn't kicked in yet so I'm not of a mind to skirt around B.S. - I feel like clobbering it head-on.

   Good for you!!!!!  And I agree!

As for them feeling a need to hide their main purpose - I can only guess.  And you're right, there would have been absolutely nothing wrong with them  being upfront and honest about it.

EXCEPT - Louis Schaefer himself solicited funds before they even left.

And once they found EXACTLY what their purported mission was for, they turned tail and ran.

That tells me there was/is an Aruba connection to their MAIN purpose for being there, and that probably came down on them like a ton of bricks to keep their mouths shut after they found that cage and its contents.

So with that in mind - that could explain their deception with the general public.  After all, who would be supportive of a mission that was really about oil related BUSINESS WITH Aruba?

[jen3560]

Some of this discussion about the ocean search reminded me of a statement I thought Tim Miller made about the search being planned since 2006.  I was just listening to Dana Pretzer's radio shows from 2007, interviews with Tim Miller, Jossy Mansur, Dave & Robin Holloway.  In the one from early June, 2007 Tim mentions Schaefer being involved in oil fields internationally.  If anyone else has the time and is interested, here is the link to them.

http://scaredmonkeysradio.com/category/guests/tim-miller/page/2/

Thanks 2NJ!

[jen3560]

Good Morning, Monkeys!


I've taken my crash course in Mark Purcell by reading through the thread that Tamikosmom linked.

Yuck! 

Not much I didn't already know about from talk on the main threads, and it reinforced why I've avoided letting that garbage into my head all these years.  I can't imagine the effect of reading that kind of vitriol on a daily basis. 

I am left a bit confused on just one point - I know that MIP6 and Doc Holladay are both Mark Purcell, but I'm not sure if Reality is Mark Purcell as well or someone else?  Sorry if that's a stupid question...I'd honestly rather remain ignorant of this miscreant, Purcell, but it seems that like Hotshot, he just cannot stop inserting himself into the case.

That's not a stupid question at all.  The little I can remember about Reality, someone said (and I can't remember who) that he was posting from the UK.

[Lifesong]

Some of this discussion about the ocean search reminded me of a statement I thought Tim Miller made about the search being planned since 2006.  I was just listening to Dana Pretzer's radio shows from 2007, interviews with Tim Miller, Jossy Mansur, Dave & Robin Holloway.  In the one from early June, 2007 Tim mentions Schaefer being involved in oil fields internationally.  If anyone else has the time and is interested, here is the link to them.

http://scaredmonkeysradio.com/category/guests/tim-miller/page/2/

2NJ,

I've listened to most of them over the last few months.  I think one of the most enlightening for me was in December 2007 with Hodges just before the search, and then another in January 2008 after the crap trap but while the search was still ongoing. 

I'll give the links, but I will say with regard to fair warning here, hindsight being what it is, I did not at all like what I heard...    

The Dana Pretzer Show - Thursday, December 6, 2007 - Guests Include Andrew Hodges, Tim Miller, Fred Rosen and Jossy Mansur
(Note:  Not Tim Miller from TE - a different Tim Miller)

The Dana Pretzer Show on Scared Monkeys Radio - Friday, January 25, 2008 - Guests Include Jacque Hollander, Andrew Hodges and R. Stephanie Good
According to my notes, Hodges starts somewhere around 20 minutes in.

 

[2NJSons_Mom]

Thank you, Lifesong.  I'm listening to them, now.  I may have to listen off and on, as I am not getting anything else done around here!

[2NJSons_Mom]

Jen,

Did you see my post in the Oil & Gas thread about Solomon/Gumbel?   

[Tamikosmom]

Good Morning Monkeys

Lifesong ... your timeline is the "best".

Again ... I am out of the loop regarding the dynamic encompassing the new research being posted by you all regarding holdings of John Silvetti and Louis Schaffer.  I will probably clue in when it is all encorporated into the timeline.

Have a good day all.

Janet

[jen3560]

Jen,

Did you see my post in the Oil & Gas thread about Solomon/Gumbel?   

Not yet.............I'm kind of hit and miss with my computer time today. 

[Keepthefaith]

Good Morning Monkeys

Lifesong ... your timeline is the "best".

Again ... I am out of the loop regarding the dynamic encompassing the new research being posted by you all regarding holdings of John Silvetti and Louis Schaffer.  I will probably clue in when it is all encorporated into the timeline.

Have a good day all.

Janet

Hope you had a great weekend Janet!

[Tamikosmom]

It could be that the "little" fish were not aware of the dynamics of the Aruban coverup.  I think that Kyle Kingman was a "little" fish until he was informed by Monkeys ... by Private Eye.
Think about it.  If Tim M. and Dave Holloway went into this venture without any preparation for FBI backup in the event that a trap which appeared to contain human remains were discovered in Aruban waters... the "little" fish probably ... along with Kyle Kingman ... took their cue from these men in the know and also trusted the Aruban divers ... the Aruban authoriites.

I believe that Kyle Kingman's education ... regarding the far reaching dynamics encompassing the Natalee Holloway case in regards to the coverup ... was obtained through a crash course from Monkeys ... from Private Eye.

Janet

+++++++

KYLE KINGMAN - IN HIS OWN WORDS

Kyle Kingman:  Thought you all may find this interesting if you're willing to accept it-

To date, the Aruban police and dive team has been a tremendous help.  They've honestly done a great job. Over the last month we've established a very good working relationship based on openness and trust.  Most of the relationship success was due to getting the media out of the way and working together shoulder to shoulder over time.  We've helped each other however and whenever we can.  They've treated us with decency and respect and we have treated them as friends and allies, which they are. Most of the police and divers are new since this case started and both eager and careful to do things right.  I wish we had a month ahead of the project just to establish the relationships and trust. I know many of you would likely doubt this view, but it's based on the experiences in the field of the entire search team. I too was extremely worried, paranoid, and suspecting in the beginning.  Now, it's clear we're all working towards a common goal.

Janet - I can't give Kyle a pass on this one.  He was given a heads up personally, by me, before the Persistence ever arrived in Aruba about the lack of integrity on the part of Aruba - their government as well as their law officials.

He claimed to already be aware of that.

Jen

At the end of January/beginning of February when I flew the coop ... you were still giving Hans Mos the benefit of the doubt that he was a "good guy".

You were very uncomfortable with my contention that a Natalee's Freebird document should be released to our blog implying otherwise.

When I consider Kyle Kingman's own words submitted to the Natalee's Freebirds' site following my departure and ... his own words submitted to the SM site ... it is obvious to me that he was unaware of the extent of the corrupt investigation ... the extent that implied that NOBODY who was answerable to Rudy Croes could be trusted.  There were no "good guys" ... they were all "bad guys".

Natalee's uncle attempted to warn Kyle.

IMO

Janet

+++++

private eye
Discussion #742 3/10 -
« Reply #686 on: March 13, 2008, 06:38:07 PM »

... But sharing information with people who work for people who are directly orchestrating the cover up, Rudy, or the Dutch, is the most irresponsible investigating I can imagine. What kills this investigation is people having to come into it, wanting to apply basic investigatory protocols into place, and then having those channels sabotage the new evidence that the new players discover. Of course, as is happened everytime in this case, the new people eventually come to a point where the manipulation of the evidence is undeniable, but by then the fruits of their work are gone, and there is simply another member of the believers of the cover up group. What I pray that Kyle and the crew of the Persistence will determine, is that regardless of how hard working the man that they are working with appears to work, his work belongs to Rudy, and Rudy belongs to the local dutch.

We are not hysterical, ignorant, paranoid people. We have seen the cover up in action, in broad daylight, with impunity, and if you disregard our warnings, you will become the next chump in a series of chumps, no matter how sophisticated your equipment, the level of your educational achievement, or the extent of your job skills and work history.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2689.msg364750#msg364750

[jen3560]

Some of this discussion about the ocean search reminded me of a statement I thought Tim Miller made about the search being planned since 2006.  I was just listening to Dana Pretzer's radio shows from 2007, interviews with Tim Miller, Jossy Mansur, Dave & Robin Holloway.  In the one from early June, 2007 Tim mentions Schaefer being involved in oil fields internationally.  If anyone else has the time and is interested, here is the link to them.

http://scaredmonkeysradio.com/category/guests/tim-miller/page/2/

2NJ,

I've listened to most of them over the last few months.  I think one of the most enlightening for me was in December 2007 with Hodges just before the search, and then another in January 2008 after the crap trap but while the search was still ongoing. 

I'll give the links, but I will say with regard to fair warning here, hindsight being what it is, I did not at all like what I heard...    

The Dana Pretzer Show - Thursday, December 6, 2007 - Guests Include Andrew Hodges, Tim Miller, Fred Rosen and Jossy Mansur
(Note:  Not Tim Miller from TE - a different Tim Miller)

The Dana Pretzer Show on Scared Monkeys Radio - Friday, January 25, 2008 - Guests Include Jacque Hollander, Andrew Hodges and R. Stephanie Good
According to my notes, Hodges starts somewhere around 20 minutes in.

 

Scary part is, according to what Kyle has told us about the location of the cage they found - Hodges was dead on.

He speaks of that trench that runs parallel to the island.  The cage was found just shy of that trench.

While I don't necessarily subscribe to Hodges' line of subconscious forensics - he did come up with the same location we came up with.

However - we came up with it (in part) from the cell phone pings in the information released thanks to the Dr Phil case. 

[jen3560]

Jen

At the end of January/beginning of February when I flew the coop ... you were still giving Hans Mos the benefit of the doubt that he was a "good guy".

You were very uncomfortable with my contention that a Natalee's Freebird document should be released to our blog implying otherwise.

When I consider Kyle Kingman's own words submitted to the Natalee's Freebirds' site following my departure and ... his own words submitted to the SM site ... it is obvious to me that he was unaware of the extent of the corrupt investigation ... the extent that implied that NOBODY who was answerable to Rudy Croes could be trusted.  There were no "good guys" ... they were all "bad guys".

Natalee's uncle attempted to warn Kyle.

IMO

Janet

+++++

private eye
Discussion #742 3/10 -
« Reply #686 on: March 13, 2008, 06:38:07 PM »

... But sharing information with people who work for people who are directly orchestrating the cover up, Rudy, or the Dutch, is the most irresponsible investigating I can imagine. What kills this investigation is people having to come into it, wanting to apply basic investigatory protocols into place, and then having those channels sabotage the new evidence that the new players discover. Of course, as is happened everytime in this case, the new people eventually come to a point where the manipulation of the evidence is undeniable, but by then the fruits of their work are gone, and there is simply another member of the believers of the cover up group. What I pray that Kyle and the crew of the Persistence will determine, is that regardless of how hard working the man that they are working with appears to work, his work belongs to Rudy, and Rudy belongs to the local dutch.

We are not hysterical, ignorant, paranoid people. We have seen the cover up in action, in broad daylight, with impunity, and if you disregard our warnings, you will become the next chump in a series of chumps, no matter how sophisticated your equipment, the level of your educational achievement, or the extent of your job skills and work history.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2689.msg364750#msg364750

Janet - have no fear.  My personal feelings were not included in what was expressed to Kyle, just the facts as we knew them to be at that time.

In other words - no passes were given to Mos or anyone else regarding lack of integrity and/or corruption.

[jen3560]

Jen,

Did you see my post in the Oil & Gas thread about Solomon/Gumbel?   

    Oh, that's hysterical!!

[Helen Back]

Hi monkeys,

I've been reading to catch up........great work Lifesong on the timeline, it's beautiful, and is put together in a way that is certainly helping me get a grip on the big picture.

Jen - I agree with you and others that had we known about the Persistence's dual mission, many of us would not have taken issue with that.  However, in light of how the mission was positioned from a PR perspective, and especially in light of the "big forfeit", this endeavor represents one of the hugest conflicts of interest I have seen.  How could they retrieve Natalee and bring her home and still retain their business interests?

The revelation of Kawish and Mark Purcell's contact with CLW, and Purcell's continued access to information through Dave and Robin, makes me ill.  When Private Eye posted that the fix was in, he wasn't kidding.  I am now wondering if the fix was in at the inception of the mission.  Knowing what we now know, there is no reason not to ask the question......was there ever a plan to bring Natalee home, or was the plan in place a the inception of the mission to continue the cover up?

I must admit, I didn't put a lot of stock in the story about Jug's early knowledge of the oil mission.  We've heard a lot of questionable second-hand stories about what Jug knows and says.

Now, the preponderance of evidence is heavily weighted toward the Persistence Mission having been tainted from the very beginning.

I appreciate everyone's work on the corporate research.  I hope to absorb it in time.  

Helen Back

[Lifesong]

I wish Dana would do a show about the trap and the pond with Tim Miller and John Silvetti.

I'd like to hear their take on everything now.  I have a lot of questions.


What do they know/think now about the witness and Capslockwizard and Mark Purcell? 

How close were Silvetti and Purcell during the ocean search?

How did it happen that the Aruban divers showed up on January 7th?  Who all knew or was informed that the date for retrieval was set?

How does Silvetti explain Kyle's message at BFN on behalf of the entire search team disavowing any association between Dr. Hodges and the search?

What do they think of ALE now?

Which ALE detective brought his brother with the latitude vision?

I'm just getting started...   


I think it would be a great show and Dana could give Silvetti a fair opportunity to clear up his side of this.  What DID he think was in the cage?  Why didn't he press the Arubans about it? 

I want to hear Tim discuss the remaining targets and if they do still plan search them, and more importantly, how would they guarantee the same thing wouldn't happen again?

I think Dana could give it all a full, fair, and factual airing. 

I wish, I wish....

[Lifesong]

Some of this discussion about the ocean search reminded me of a statement I thought Tim Miller made about the search being planned since 2006.  I was just listening to Dana Pretzer's radio shows from 2007, interviews with Tim Miller, Jossy Mansur, Dave & Robin Holloway.  In the one from early June, 2007 Tim mentions Schaefer being involved in oil fields internationally.  If anyone else has the time and is interested, here is the link to them.

http://scaredmonkeysradio.com/category/guests/tim-miller/page/2/

2NJ,

I've listened to most of them over the last few months.  I think one of the most enlightening for me was in December 2007 with Hodges just before the search, and then another in January 2008 after the crap trap but while the search was still ongoing. 

I'll give the links, but I will say with regard to fair warning here, hindsight being what it is, I did not at all like what I heard...    

The Dana Pretzer Show - Thursday, December 6, 2007 - Guests Include Andrew Hodges, Tim Miller, Fred Rosen and Jossy Mansur
(Note:  Not Tim Miller from TE - a different Tim Miller)

The Dana Pretzer Show on Scared Monkeys Radio - Friday, January 25, 2008 - Guests Include Jacque Hollander, Andrew Hodges and R. Stephanie Good
According to my notes, Hodges starts somewhere around 20 minutes in.

 

Scary part is, according to what Kyle has told us about the location of the cage they found - Hodges was dead on.

He speaks of that trench that runs parallel to the island.  The cage was found just shy of that trench.

While I don't necessarily subscribe to Hodges' line of subconscious forensics - he did come up with the same location we came up with.

However - we came up with it (in part) from the cell phone pings in the information released thanks to the Dr Phil case. 

Jen,  some of my wonderings about this all...

It is completely shocking how accurate Hodges was in relation to the location of the crab trap.  I've wondered if that isn't part of why Silvetti discounted it or didn't take it seriously. 

I just have sooo many questions about this:

jdsurveyor1
John Silvetti, the Persistence and the Search for Natalee «
Reply #13 on: April 03, 2008, 07:52:13 PM »

The important thing is to raise funds. It will require corporate support as well as private donations. Dave and Beth have been doing a great job getting the word out and while I was on the island, Dave put me in contact with the head of the Hotel Association who is working on raising a sizeable amount. So many on the island are supporting our efforts as well as people from all over the world.The media really blew the cage out of proportion. Although the cage initially provided some moments of "what is in there", I warned all on board that none of this information was to leave the boat. It was very suspect that a cage of this size was found where it was on the seafloor relative to the coast. My feelings were this was highly unusual and probably had something to do with something, but not what we were after. It was decided that the cage would be investigated further by divers, however, it was designated as only a target of interest. The crew moved onto other targets. Unfortunately, inexperience and frustration led to premature statements, including that we had found her. I don't think anyone was more upset than I that this information came off the boat and caused the Holloway family more grief!

Plus:  Kyle would have us believe that Schaefer, Trahan and himself are on the outs with Silvetti...but Schaefer and Silvetti are working together with Texas EquuSearch. 

02/22/2009

As of 10:15 pm, Texas EquuSearch has been joined in the search for Dr. Zella by the Silvetti Group and Legacy Offshore Divers & Construction Company, both out of Louisiana. We will continue searching tonight, as long as possible.  On Monday, five different groups were using sonar equipment to scan the bottom of Clear Lake — League City, Nassau Bay, the Montgomery County Constable’s office and The Silvetti Group and Legacy Offshore Divers & Construction Co., both of Louisiana, Black said. Equusearch said the sonar teams and divers will work through most of Monday night.  At about 10:15 p.m. Sunday, the search team was joined by The Silvetti Group and Legacy arrived with divers, who began searching shortly thereafter and continued diving until about 5 a.m. Monday.

I really don't know what to make of it.

[Linda in MD]

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http://socaltravelindustry.blogspot.com/2009/05/holiday-inn-resort-aruba-sets-recession.html

[Nut44x4]

Reality is not Mark P, but cut from the same mold... imo

[texasmom]

http://www.amigoe.com/artman/publish/artikel_56038.php

Google translation:

Aruba

"Valero more than 15 million BBO lost '

May 4, 2009, 15:47 (GMT -04:00)


 
Valero will shortly lose millions florin to BBO are the Council of Action for the Taxation objection rejected.


ORANGE CITY - As the Board of Appeals for the opposition of Taxation on Valero to pay tax on turnover (BBO) has rejected the chance that a significant oil refinery for more than 15 million now imposed florin BBO to pay.

The objection was just after the introduction of the tax in January 2007 submitted. Two weeks ago leaked out that the objection to the BBO on the export turnover is rejected. This is now confirmed to Amigoe. This means that Valero in each case more than 15 million florin to tax payable on January and February 2007. There are currently talks between the government and the oil refinery over the remaining months. Valero for these months separately objected. According to the tax, not the substance of this case would go, it is true that the tax court looks at these concerns again. But chances are that the same court ruling, because the same kind of objection is, according to the IRS. This means that the oil refinery BBO 1 percent to pay the export turnover or between 350 and 400 million florin to April of this year. Appealing against the decision of the Council of Action for Taxation is not possible. In the Netherlands, the taxpayer appealed, not in Aruba, the tax information.

The staff of the refinery since the buzzing of rumors that Valero by July 1 if no takeover party found the doors closed. The U.S. oil company does not comment on a possible closure. It is an option as was the highest boss of Valero, Bill Klees, in January ontvallen in an interview with a foreign analyst. The question was not in particular on the refinery in San Nicolas, but refiners in general where Valero off will and will not be sold. The Aruba refinery has been some time for sale.

Furthermore, Valero since the conflict in the BBO tax money all these years in an escrow account. This after an arbitration case against the government had brought. In February, the case by the Dutch arbitration court treated. When the decision is not yet known.

[Lifesong]

Reality is not Mark P, but cut from the same mold... imo

Thanks, Nut44x4!

I thought they were probably 2 different people, but just wasn't sure.