Natalee Case Discussion #741 3/7 - 3/10/08

[Jo-An]

Hey Monkeys,

if there are any older documents or whatever that you want looked at (translation-wise) please let me know.
If there is a Dutch-English translation that you doubt or want double-checked, just give me a shout (and a link!). 

[katrien]

Hi there monkeys! I am feeling very dim today. There has been lots to read and think over in the last 24 hours!

I remember SandraK from the old days - where is she; ie where does she post now? Funny the things that stay in one's mind - wasn't she terribly upset over losing post counts when the SM site was having problems? before the big crash?

 
All of our Dutch and Paps monkeys rock!
Thank you for your invaluable work on translations.

So, how does this work in the NL when corruption is investigated among those in the justice department? Who runs such an investigation? Do the Dutch set up an independent prosecutor in a case of this type?

What kind of jurisdiction does the NL actually have over Aruba? Can the Dutch legally investigate Aruba's government for corruption? What is the process that would bring such an investigation forward?

When there is an investigation on corruption or some other big issue, an independent commission is appointed to investigate and report.

Aruba is part of the Kingdom of the Netherlands but is its own country with its own laws and institutions. I'm not sure what the possibilities are for the Dutch to investigate Aruba's government (politics is not my forte...  )

I'm also not sure what the possibilities are for the Dutch to investigate Aruba's government.
In The Netherlands it is possible (and it happens) that an independent commission is appointed to investigate and report.
Pressure by letting know by media what is going on on Aruba and politics can help.

[Tamikosmom]

“IT AIN’T OVER UNTIL IT IS OVER.”

Art Wood
'Rita Cosby Live & Direct'
December 2, 2005

ART WOOD, FORMER SECRET SERVICE AGENT: Absolutely. Absolutely. There's a lot that Americans can do through the State Department. I want to remind everybody that Natalee Holloway was a U.S. citizen. Once the Aruban authorities are done investigating this case, the FBI can still conduct an investigation, and they could extradite these suspects to the United States. Let me point out that there's a ton of circumstantial evidence in this case to convict these kids.


http://www.internationalextradition.com/netherlands_bi.htm
When the FBI Seeks Extradition
BILATERAL EXTRADITION TREATIES
NETHERLANDS
<snipped>

SCHEDULE OF OFFENSES

1. Murder; assault with intent to commit murder.

2. Manslaughter.

3. Malicious wounding; inflicting grievous bodily harm.

4. Arson.

5. Rape; indecent assault; incest; bigamy.

6. Unlawful sexual acts with or upon children under the age specified by the laws of both the Requesting and Requested States.

7. Wilful abandonment of a minor or other dependent person when the life of that minor or that dependent person is or is likely to be injured or endangered.

8. Kidnapping; abduction; false imprisonment.

9. Robbery; burglary; larceny; embezzlement.

10. Fraud, including obtaining property, money or valuable securities by false pretenses, deceit, falsehood, or other fraudulent means.

11. Bribery, including soliciting, offering [*27] and accepting.

12. Extortion.

13. Receiving, possessing or transporting anything of value knowing it to have been unlawfully obtained.

14. Offenses relating to criminal breach of trust.

15. An offense against the laws relating to counterfeiting and forgery; including the forging of seals, trademarks, documents, or use of such forgeries.

16. An offense against the laws relating to international transfers of funds.

17. An offense against the laws relating to importation, exportation or transit of goods, articles, or merchandise, including violations of the customs laws.

18. Offenses relating to slavery or the illegal transporting of persons.

19. Offenses against the laws relating to bankruptcy.

20. Offenses against the laws relating to prohibition of private monopoly or unfair trade practices.

21. Perjury; subornation of perjury; making a false statement to a government agency or official.

22. Offenses relating to wilful evasion of taxes and duties.

23. Any act or omission intended or likely to: (a) endanger the safety of an aircraft in flight or of any person on board such aircraft; or (b) destroy or render any aircraft incapable of flight.

24. Any unlawful seizure or exercise of control [*28] of an aircraft in flight by force or violence, or by threat of force or violence, or by any other form of intimidation.

25. Any unlawful act or omission intended or that is likely to endanger the safety of any person in a railway train or in any vessel or other means of transportation.

26. Piracy, mutiny, or any mutinous act committed on board a vessel.

27. Malicious damage to property.

28. Offenses against the laws relating to the traffic in, or the possession, production or manufacture of narcotic drugs, cannabis, psychotropic drugs, cocaine and its derivatives, and other dangerous drugs and chemicals.

29. Offenses against laws relating to the poisonous chemicals or substances injurious to health.

30. Offenses against the laws relating to firearms, ammunition, explosives, incendiary devices or nuclear materials.

31. Offenses against the laws relating to the abuse of official authority.

32. Offenses against the laws relating to obstruction of justice.

33. Offenses relating to securities and commodities.

34. Facilitating or permitting the escape of a person from custody.

35. Incitements to violence.

36. Any other act for which extradition may be granted in accordance with the laws [*29] of both Contracting Parties.

[GBMW]

Can't tell for sure, but she looks a bit like Karin
http://www.zorpia.com/just2cute
"angelique's" homepage

She sure does.....is this really joran's zopia site?He has a"Grace"listed as his GF and sander and Sasha as his family members.

nooooooo...it is not Joran's site!

How do you know? Sorry, I don't know a lot about online profiles - Internet etc. But it states he's been a member since jan. 2005, loverboy362 as his username, some of his friends are known and there is a photo of Floor on this site (a friend of his...this I know for sure)....
Do you know his real site then? Or is this just a really good fake one?

grrrrr.......sorry my patience is wearing thin this day.
http://www.zorpia.com/just2cute  IS NOT Joran's site

http://www.zorpia.com/loverboy362/album/-1/profile_photos  IS

Sorry for the misunderstanding
I meant was joran's zorpia site really made by joran,but I see you have answered that already.

Thank you GBMW.Again,sorry for the mix up....didn't mean to make anyone"wear their patience thin"

At least now we're all clear on Jorans' Zorpia Site




From ANP (Dutch Press Agency):
Peter R. de Vries heeft Van der Eem, die vrijdag zelf
onbereikbaar was, over de kwestie gesproken. Van der Eem moest
vooral lachen om het feit dat hij kennelijk heimelijk is gefilmd.
,,Een koekje van eigen deeg noemde hij het, aldus De Vries.
,,Castro en hij kennen elkaar al jaren, volgens mij speelt dat ook
een beetje rol. Patrick zegt dat hij Castro helemaal niet heeft
bedreigd.

Peter R. de Vries has spoken to Van der Eem, who wasn't available on Friday. Van der Eem had to laugh at the fact he was taped in secret.
,,Een koekje van eigen deeg noemde hij het (don't know how to translate this at the moment; it's an expression to say he's gotten what he has given...), according to De Vries. Castro & Patrick (him) have known each other for years, I think this is also a factor. Patrick says he HASN'T threatened Castro at all.

[Destiny]

Thanks Klaas for posting those screen shots of the fisherman with the trap both over his head and on the boat.  The trap pictured seems to match the approximate dimensions and description obtained by Dr. Hodges.  Nicely done indeed. 

Morning/Afternoon OE!

Yes it does match the description by Dr. Hodges....but...it does not match the size of the trap in the 6 Robin Photos...vewwy vewwy intwesting....as Elmer would say....Good to see you OE...things going well for you?  Bet you are glad to be back on *safe* land Sweetie....You are one Fine Monkey!

[caesu]

So, how does this work in the NL when corruption is investigated among those in the justice department? Who runs such an investigation? Do the Dutch set up an independent prosecutor in a case of this type?

What kind of jurisdiction does the NL actually have over Aruba? Can the Dutch legally investigate Aruba's government for corruption? What is the process that would bring such an investigation forward?

the netherlands can't do much. aruba is a seperate country. only they share the same queen.

one thing is possible in article 43 of the statute of the kingdom.
rights, liberties, justice and sound governement is an  responsibility for the kingdom.

Artikel 43

   1. Elk der landen draagt zorg voor de verwezenlijking van de fundamentele menselijke rechten en vrijheden, de rechtszekerheid en de deugdelijkheid van het bestuur.
   2. Het waarborgen van deze rechten, vrijheden, rechtszekerheid en deugdelijkheid van bestuur is aangelegenheid van het Koninkrijk.

http://nl.wikisource.org/wiki/Statuut_voor_het_Koninkrijk_der_Nederlanden
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_for_the_Kingdom_of_the_Netherlands

council of ministers of the kingdom is the council of ministers of the netherlands including one minister plenipotentiary of aruba and one minister plenipotentiary of the antilles.

aruba can appeal a decision by the council of ministers of the kingdom at the higher court on curaçao.

also i don't think the netherlands sends much money to aruba.

earlier there was a major disagreement about the netherlands selling the mariott hotel (plant complex) and aruba didn't get a share of the money (or not enough)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Ministers_of_the_Kingdom_of_the_Netherlands

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_for_the_Kingdom_of_the_Netherlands

Article 43
1. Each of the Countries shall promote the realization of fundamental human rights
and freedoms, legal certainty and good governance.
2. The safeguarding of such rights and freedoms, legal certainty and good governance
shall be a Kingdom affair.

Charter for the Kingdom of the Netherlands (PDF)
http://www.minbzk.nl/aspx/download.aspx?file=/contents/pages/48365/thecharterforthekingdomofthenetherlands.pdf

[caesu]

about Plant Hotel / Mariott:

http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-6106704/US-237-million-sale-of.html

US$237 million sale of Marriott Resort.(ARUBA)(Aruba Marriott Resort & Stellaris Casino acquired by Caribbean Real Estate Opportunity Fund)

oduber wanted 150 million euro
but the netherlands only agreed to half of that.

http://antilliaans.caribiana.nl/articlesbytag?tag=Plant+Hotel

this problem is still unresolved.

dutch antilles is getting 2 billion in aid in 2007 from the netherlands.
aruba is not getting aid.

so netherlands can't force aruba to do anything by threatening to stop aid.
aruba is pretty much independent and don't have to worry about the netherlands.

just this article 43.

[texasmom]

In the end this BS will all come to light for what it is, an annoying distraction that has temporarily shifted the spotlight away from Joran and Paulus and the corrupt.

My sentiments exactly BR! 

I agree Bladerunner, anything to shift the spotlight away from all actually involved in the crime and cover-up! 

The following was posted in comments on Koen's Zorpia webpage.  I found it interesting and since Jacobs and Jansen have been mentioned recently hope some of you will too. 

  It's sad to know that if the post was continued from where it left off to date, that even though some of the players in the investigation have changed; it's still much of the same crapola. JMO

http://www.zorpia.com/koeng61


DEETCH BLOG
Janssen and Jacobs: Company Men
posted bt Toves 5.22.2006


In October of 2005, Dave Holloway met with Chief Dompig in a parking lot in Oranjestad. The purpose of the meeting was to request that Dompig conduct a thorough interrogation of Koen Gottenbos. Dave Holloway told Dompig that he believed Koen was ready to crack.

Koen's name first surfaced in June when Beth Twitty was shown some of the suspect statements by the Prosecutor, Janssen, and in those statements Joran had made reference to Koen's father's boat. The same month Dave Holloway was told by one of Joran's classmates that they used Koen's father's boat to get rid of the body.

Koen Gottenbos lied to the police and the Gottenbos'have moved off Aruba. The assistant Prosecutor resigned over Janssen's refusal to question Koen. Only the father came in to speak for him.

Dave Hollowy requested they bring Koen in for questioning and that someone other than Dennis Jacobs conduct the interview. Dompig told Dave Holloway he would have to consult with Jacobs.

Later that evening Dave kept getting urgent phone messages from Dennis Jacobs. Dave was unable to answer his phone because he was searching a swamp but was aware of the calls. Dennis Jacobs even called Dave's office in Mississippi and told them it was urgent that he speak with Dave.

When Dave finally answered Jacobs calls he was frantic, almost panicked, wondering why Dave had met with Chief Dompig? Jacobs told Dave that he should not meet with Dompig without first consulting with him. Dave felt Jacobs was concerned that Dave would relay some info or evidence to Dompig without him being able to control it.

Insane and unprofessional?

Dennis Jacobs, the man who Dave first approached and was asked "how much money do you have?". Dennis Jacobs, a career narcotics officer ILLEGALLY appointed as lead investigator without experience in missing persons by Jan van der straaten. His appointment created hard feelings within the police department.

He is one of the only constant figures in the entire investigation, the man responsible for EVIDENCE.

Dennis Jacobs interviewed the suspects on May 31st, 2005 and he admitted that there were inconsistencies in their statements, however, he didn't think it was necessary to re-interview them for days after they lied about dropping Natalee off at the Holiday Inn. If Beth hadn't told him that she reviewed the video camera film at the Holiday Inn and Natalee was not on it being dropped off by the suspects as they insisted he may not have re-interviewed them at all. But he already knew that Joran and the Kalpoe's had lied about dropping Natalee off.

Dennis Jacobs, the career narcotics agent, was instrumental in orchestrating the arrest of the security guards along with the Prosecutor Karin Janssen. They did this after knowing full well that the 3 had lied about dropping Natalee off.

Booty, the beach bum drug dealer was the one who swears he saw them going in and out of Natalee's room and the reason Janssen stated they "have more than circumstantial evidence" to hold them on kidnapping and murder charges.

Now we are supposed to believe Janssen had "more than circumstantial evidence" against the security guards but not more than circumstantial evidence against Joran Van der sloot?

Art Wood found a belt similar to the one Joran is holding in a photo in a spot searched by Fred Golba. At one point the search dog began digging in the sand in the exact spot and dug up pieces of plastic that Fred Golba wanted to record and enter into evidence. Dennis Jacobs threw them into the wind saying "they were of no value."

In October, Dennis Jacobs took a statement from Dave Holloway regarding the meeting that Dave had with Paul Van der sloot in August. Jacobs questioning lasted 3 hours and when Dave saw an english translation prepared by Jacobs it was reduced to one page. Three hours of questioning and it failed to even relate to the subject that they covered. Instead, it made refernece to Beth and Jug and the Natalee Holloway fund. The statement was witnessed by another Police Officer who was not even present during the testimony.

Insane and unprofessional?

Later that month, a young dispatcher in the police department informed Dave that Jan van der straaten was a frequent visitor to the office. To meet with Dennis Jacobs.

After one year, there appears to be no evidence and yet Jacobs and Janssen are still in place.

It was called a murder when the guards were arrested, why? You have the Prosecutor calling it a homicide, Dompig says it was an overdose and van der straaten called it murder. How? On what evidence can they make these statements yet cannot connect them to a suspect?

Insane and unprofessional?

What type of prosecutor would take a job where there is supposedly very little crime? Can it be possible that Dompig and Jacobs were simply at odds over procedure but both had the same goals? Or is it more likely that one was trying to sabatoge the investigation?

With Dompig having stated "the 3 are guilty as hell" and confirming Natalee's death then being forced to retract it, does it not appear that Dompig was trying to tell us something?

And now he's gone, and not Jacobs or Janssen.

Karin Janssen could not get DNA from the 3 suspects? A procedural mistake? This alone is highly suspicious. How is it possible that Joran Van der sloot could be held for 3 months and yet Janssen failed to get DNA from him and the Kalpoe's whom she arrested twice?

Insane and unprofessional?

And if you have Paul van der sloot arrested and Joran as the main suspect, how is it possible you cannot get a search warrant for these suspects property? The incompetence is so great that you have to wonder if that is the plan.

"We have ways of dealing with these things." Nelson Oduber

Karin Janssen, by normal standards has appeared to be so completely incompetent that it has to be considered just what exactly is the role of a prosecutor in a place that claims to have little crime yet is world reknown for drug trafficking? Does anyone think Jacobs and Janssen are where they are to eliminate the drug trade from Aruba?

Her consciousness of guilt manifested in her inability to communicate with Natalee's family, her 2 week vacation prior to the suspects release, her inability to secure DNA from the suspects or convince a judge to issue a search warrant for suspects she arrested, and her failure to prevent Paul and Joran van der sloot from being compensated, and she still even has job?

Or is she doing exactly what she is supposed to?

Is it a coincidence that an Aruban court that we were continually told has laws we don't understand seems to be waiting for the outcome of civil trial in the U.S. to decide on the amount of Paulus's compensation? How are they related? It seems to be a make it up as you go legal system.

And is it a coincidence that Joe Tacopina claims to have re-read thousands of documents and suddenly at the very same time we have a flurry of new arrests that went nowhere?

Just what is she doing? Promising fireworks and writing the U.S. Justice department asking if Beth is related to Hitler.

You can only surmise that Karin Janssen is part of a coverup to sabatoge this case. Dompig has intimated that he was only doing what he was told by superiors. I believe him. I believe he thought he would be the Chief of Police and was trying to broker a de facto plea bargain whereby he would confirm Natalee is dead without finding fault for Dutch Nationals the Van der sloots.

But on whose order? It can only be Nelson Oduber.

Karin Janssen came to Aruba for a reason, and it was not to clean up crime. By any standard she has failed Natalee completely, yet probably succeeded in carrying out the wishes of her superiors.

3 women had come forward before Natalee arrived in Aruba claiming they were raped by Joran Van der sloot. 2 of them have been paid for their silence. This comes right from police reports. A third was handled by a child advocate. The security guards have also been silenced. Not even one interview? Nothing. They were scapegoats, now rewarded for their inconvenience and convenience to a coverup.

The question remains, how do they know Natalee is dead? Is it the blood in Deepak's car? The Joran confession that "something bad happened." Or the Chicago videos where on the day Natalee was confirmed dead, there appears to be a coroner's van and the VCB working in large numbers around an obvious crime scene?

Those videos are begging an explanation. The first was they were preparing to put up a sign. But when asked why a coroner's van, the VCB and men in suits were needed for placing a sign 50 yards away, that answer was retracted.

Now a new reasoning will be brought forth, they actually did find something, but I can only guess that we will hear another familiar phrase.

"It is of no value."

That sums up the sadistic and barbaric nature of these people in Aruba and their feelings about Natalee. The depth of anti-American feelings used as a reason to defend a sociopathic liar, like Joran Van der sloot. Still the last know person to be with Natalee.

Can a case close when Joran first said he dropped her at the hotel, then the beach and Deepak picked him up, then the beach and Satish picked him up?

Finally, from Tamikosmom, these "theories" are based on what? Why is it so difficult for them to name names?

How anyone can not see what this type of speculation does to the family of Natalee is obscene. To be able to put out these "theories" while the people they are theorizing about are walking free is sadistic and cruel and will not be forgotten.

Janssen and Jacobs will also be held accountable and deserve to be subject to the very same treatment they have dished out.

Karin Janssen and Dennis Jacobs, you are cowardly men and will receive no mercy when your day of reckoning comes. You have fooled some people, but not all.


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,159252,00.html
June 11, 2005

David Cruz, a spokesman for the Aruban Minister of Justice (search) told FOX News Natalee Holloway (search), who was on vacation with friends with a graduation trip when she disappeared, was confirmed dead and that authorities knew the location of her body. However, Cruz later retracted the statement, saying he was a victim of a "misinformation campaign."


Gerold Dompig, Deputy Police Commissioner

http://www.dailystar.com/dailystar/...icles/79383.php
June 12, 2005

Deputy Police Commissioner, Gerold Dompig, told The Associated Press that one of three young men arrested in the case admitted “something bad happened” to Holloway and was leading police to the scene. Prosecutors refused to comment on Dompig's statement, and Dompig Himself refused to identify which of the three young men who took Holloway to the Northern beach the night she went missing made the statement.


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006...644_page3.shtml

Dompig says he believes Paulus Van der Sloot does know more than he has been telling about the circumstances surrounding Holloway's disappearance.


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/22/48hours/main1430644_page4.shtml

The Aruban authorities’ new theory is that someone, someone possibly very close to the young suspects, took the time to carefully hide the body, not once but maybe twice, literally re-burying her.

Took the time to carefully hide the body? Who gave them time to do this?

Karin Janssen and Dennis Jacobs of course.

[Jo-An]

Caesu is our political mastermind! 

[klaasend]

GBMW wrote:

Peter R. de Vries has spoken to Van der Eem, who wasn't available on Friday. Van der Eem had to laugh at the fact he was taped in secret.
,,Een koekje van eigen deeg noemde hij het (don't know how to translate this at the moment; it's an expression to say he's gotten what he has given...), according to De Vries. Castro & Patrick (him) have known each other for years, I think this is also a factor. Patrick says he HASN'T threatened Castro at all.

So the previous translations where it appeared the "known for years" was not Patrick and Joran but Patrick and Castro?

[caesu]

“IT AIN’T OVER UNTIL IT IS OVER.”

Art Wood
'Rita Cosby Live & Direct'
December 2, 2005

ART WOOD, FORMER SECRET SERVICE AGENT: Absolutely. Absolutely. There's a lot that Americans can do through the State Department. I want to remind everybody that Natalee Holloway was a U.S. citizen. Once the Aruban authorities are done investigating this case, the FBI can still conduct an investigation, and they could extradite these suspects to the United States. Let me point out that there's a ton of circumstantial evidence in this case to convict these kids.


http://www.internationalextradition.com/netherlands_bi.htm
When the FBI Seeks Extradition
BILATERAL EXTRADITION TREATIES
NETHERLANDS
<snipped>

SCHEDULE OF OFFENSES

1. Murder; assault with intent to commit murder.

2. Manslaughter.

3. Malicious wounding; inflicting grievous bodily harm.

4. Arson.

5. Rape; indecent assault; incest; bigamy.

6. Unlawful sexual acts with or upon children under the age specified by the laws of both the Requesting and Requested States.

7. Wilful abandonment of a minor or other dependent person when the life of that minor or that dependent person is or is likely to be injured or endangered.

8. Kidnapping; abduction; false imprisonment.

9. Robbery; burglary; larceny; embezzlement.

10. Fraud, including obtaining property, money or valuable securities by false pretenses, deceit, falsehood, or other fraudulent means.

11. Bribery, including soliciting, offering [*27] and accepting.

12. Extortion.

13. Receiving, possessing or transporting anything of value knowing it to have been unlawfully obtained.

14. Offenses relating to criminal breach of trust.

15. An offense against the laws relating to counterfeiting and forgery; including the forging of seals, trademarks, documents, or use of such forgeries.

16. An offense against the laws relating to international transfers of funds.

17. An offense against the laws relating to importation, exportation or transit of goods, articles, or merchandise, including violations of the customs laws.

18. Offenses relating to slavery or the illegal transporting of persons.

19. Offenses against the laws relating to bankruptcy.

20. Offenses against the laws relating to prohibition of private monopoly or unfair trade practices.

21. Perjury; subornation of perjury; making a false statement to a government agency or official.

22. Offenses relating to wilful evasion of taxes and duties.

23. Any act or omission intended or likely to: (a) endanger the safety of an aircraft in flight or of any person on board such aircraft; or (b) destroy or render any aircraft incapable of flight.

24. Any unlawful seizure or exercise of control [*28] of an aircraft in flight by force or violence, or by threat of force or violence, or by any other form of intimidation.

25. Any unlawful act or omission intended or that is likely to endanger the safety of any person in a railway train or in any vessel or other means of transportation.

26. Piracy, mutiny, or any mutinous act committed on board a vessel.

27. Malicious damage to property.

28. Offenses against the laws relating to the traffic in, or the possession, production or manufacture of narcotic drugs, cannabis, psychotropic drugs, cocaine and its derivatives, and other dangerous drugs and chemicals.

29. Offenses against laws relating to the poisonous chemicals or substances injurious to health.

30. Offenses against the laws relating to firearms, ammunition, explosives, incendiary devices or nuclear materials.

31. Offenses against the laws relating to the abuse of official authority.

32. Offenses against the laws relating to obstruction of justice.

33. Offenses relating to securities and commodities.

34. Facilitating or permitting the escape of a person from custody.

35. Incitements to violence.

36. Any other act for which extradition may be granted in accordance with the laws [*29] of both Contracting Parties.

that is all true.

i don't think this extradition will work.

it would only work if joran did something USA soil.
then joran would be extradited from the netherlands to the USA.
this happended on aruba. aruban jurisdiction.

[caesu]

“IT AIN’T OVER UNTIL IT IS OVER.”

Art Wood
'Rita Cosby Live & Direct'
December 2, 2005

ART WOOD, FORMER SECRET SERVICE AGENT: Absolutely. Absolutely. There's a lot that Americans can do through the State Department. I want to remind everybody that Natalee Holloway was a U.S. citizen. Once the Aruban authorities are done investigating this case, the FBI can still conduct an investigation, and they could extradite these suspects to the United States. Let me point out that there's a ton of circumstantial evidence in this case to convict these kids.


http://www.internationalextradition.com/netherlands_bi.htm
When the FBI Seeks Extradition
BILATERAL EXTRADITION TREATIES
NETHERLANDS
<snipped>

that is all true.

i don't think this extradition will work.

it would only work if joran did something USA soil.
then joran would be extradited from the netherlands to the USA.
this happended on aruba. aruban jurisdiction.

i mean the bilateral extradion treaties are all true.
only in this case it won't apply i think because it happened on aruba

[Anna]

also Poentjes says: (hiding) in Germany? - and Patrick says yes.
but elsewhere Poentje says Patrick said hiding in The Netherlands.

but rumours were Joran was in hiding in Germany.
is Patrick only telling the rumours or does he know something himself?

When Joran was called in the Jensen show; the transfer of calling sounded normal. Normally when you call abroad the sound is different...but maybe I'm mistaken. Or he was in the Netherlands for visit to his grandma

Is Patrick telling rumours or is Poentje telling rumours?

That's the question. And if Poentje leaves complete parts out of the interview I think Poentje is the one who tells rumours.

Good afternoon, Monkeys,

Katrien,

I do so agree with this for there was no problem at all until Poentje got involved in all of this.  I think the reason he doesn't want to show the part about this is because it would be clear that Patrick was merely speculating and did not make any statement of fact as to Joran having named his co-conspirator.

I will never understand how it came to be that anything deemed to move this investigation forward and obtain justice is some how considered anti-Aruban by so many who live there.  Very peculiar attitude for them to have.

jmo

.

[texasmom]

Thanks Klaas for posting those screen shots of the fisherman with the trap both over his head and on the boat.  The trap pictured seems to match the approximate dimensions and description obtained by Dr. Hodges.  Nicely done indeed. 

I agree!  And although I won't ask Klaas to do it, I would love to see more screen shots of the video.  I have real issues when I try to watch video, but some of the comments regarding it have definately peaked my interest.  Man on the roof especially, could this be where some of the other videos discussed here came from?

[caesu]

GBMW wrote:

Peter R. de Vries has spoken to Van der Eem, who wasn't available on Friday. Van der Eem had to laugh at the fact he was taped in secret.
,,Een koekje van eigen deeg noemde hij het (don't know how to translate this at the moment; it's an expression to say he's gotten what he has given...), according to De Vries. Castro & Patrick (him) have known each other for years, I think this is also a factor. Patrick says he HASN'T threatened Castro at all.

So the previous translations where it appeared the "known for years" was not Patrick and Joran but Patrick and Castro?

think those are seperate things.

patrick and poentje have known each other for years.

and patrick couldn't haved lived with himself (for years) if he wouldn't have tried to get a confession out of joran after he met him in the casino (7 months before the Peter R. broadcast).

but we have to wait what the correct translation is.

[GBMW]

GBMW wrote:

Peter R. de Vries has spoken to Van der Eem, who wasn't available on Friday. Van der Eem had to laugh at the fact he was taped in secret.
,,Een koekje van eigen deeg noemde hij het (don't know how to translate this at the moment; it's an expression to say he's gotten what he has given...), according to De Vries. Castro & Patrick (him) have known each other for years, I think this is also a factor. Patrick says he HASN'T threatened Castro at all.

So the previous translations where it appeared the "known for years" was not Patrick and Joran but Patrick and Castro?

I don't think so. This is from a translation the company I work for has done:

1.Nee, maar kijk hè, ik zou niet met mezelf  kunnen leven, als, als, als, ntv vroeger vele jaren kende, en ik wist dat hij zoiets had gedaan, ntv zonder iets te doen, begrijp je, maar kijk, dit ding, hè, man, het is alsof dit ding zo had moeten zijn, brother, toen ik hoorde dat deze man uit Arnhem kwam, had ik er al over nagedacht, als ik je tegenkom, dan maak ik korte metten met je {letterlijk: maak ik je af}, wanneer ik je tegenkom, dan maak ik je een kopje kleiner[ maak ik je af], ik wist het al, ik ga het casino in, [piep], daar zitten, op dat moment heb ik mijn dag bepaald, klaar, aan de lijn, 7 maanden.  Kijk, het enige ntv [piep] , is de twee keer dat ze hem hebben gehaald, de twee keer dat ze hem gehaald hebben

1. No, but look he, I couldn't live with myself if, if, if, if, NTV (I think this means Niet Te Vertalen - can't be translated) used to know for many years, and I knew that he would have done something like this, NTV without doing something, you see, but look, this thing he, he, man, it's like this had to be, brother, when I heard this guy came from Arnhem, I had already thought about it, if I see you, I'll kill you (as an expression; not literally), I alreday knew, I'm going into the casino, (peep), sit there, and at that moment; that was it (this is my interpretion; translated literally it doesn't come across), ready, on the hook, 7 months. Look, the only NTV (peep), is the second time they came to get him, the second time they came to get him.

So it looks like he meant he couldn't live with himself without trying to figure out what Joran was hiding / wat he did. When he met Joran he seized the opportunity to try and get information out of him. He has known about the case (for a few years), sees Joran in a casino and made his decision to go for it....at least that is my interpretation of this....

[katrien]

NEW FRONT PAGE POST:

http://scaredmonkeys.com/2008/03/08/so-the-aruban-dutch-media-think-patrick-van-der-eem-is-worse-than-joran-van-der-sloot-no-media-bias-here-or-agendas/

So the Aruban & Dutch Media Think Patrick van der Eem is Worse than Joran Van der Sloot? … No Media Bias Here or Agendas

Here we go...
Patrick - baaaaaaaaaaad, Joran - goooooooood! Maybe this will make everyone forget what Joran said!
As if Patrick matters as anything other the means for get Joran to talk!
 

Yes right, this is meant to forget what Joran said. The people behind this start to worry, because since the show of PeterR, there seems to be no way out anymore for Joran and his friends. So they hire a couple of not too successful journalists to do the job.
Up till now I have not seen proper shows or papers in Holland blaming Patrick yet. The papers which have been writing about Patrick so far, are only a few gossip-papers with a bad name. They are being considered by normal Dutch people as not very reliable.
Probably in the USA there are also a few of these papers.

The other murdercase was all over the media,  because a well known mediaman was coming in every show to tell about fraud. He kept asking reconsideration for his friend, again and again and again and he got his reconsiderations but, the man was fully prooven the one who did it, so he had to stay in prison.
Finally, because a lot of people started to believe the mediaman because he kept screeming the wrong man was in prison, people started to believe the mediaman. A few years ago he came up with a story that there was a knife in the grave of the killed woman.

If you seriously read what those people made up for stories, hilarious.
What I am writing, really happened.

The mediaman shouted so loud, that the Government decided to open the grave. No knife of course.
The opening of the grave was for a political reason. The Government was hoping the man would stop telling stories and stop blaming everybody from fraud. He now is the laugh of Holland.

Behind the scenes, the journalist who started this all up was Stan de Jong, one of the two who wrote the article about Patrick. He tries to get people to believe him, but most journalists know who he is, so they wait till after sunday.

You can not just make up stories and tell, you have to prove it, otherwise it is worthless.

Jensen and Moszco told that Moszco will be in one of Jensens show next week.

[caesu]

GBMW wrote:

Peter R. de Vries has spoken to Van der Eem, who wasn't available on Friday. Van der Eem had to laugh at the fact he was taped in secret.
,,Een koekje van eigen deeg noemde hij het (don't know how to translate this at the moment; it's an expression to say he's gotten what he has given...), according to De Vries. Castro & Patrick (him) have known each other for years, I think this is also a factor. Patrick says he HASN'T threatened Castro at all.

So the previous translations where it appeared the "known for years" was not Patrick and Joran but Patrick and Castro?

I don't think so. This is from a translation the company I work for has done:

1.Nee, maar kijk hè, ik zou niet met mezelf  kunnen leven, als, als, als, ntv vroeger vele jaren kende, en ik wist dat hij zoiets had gedaan, ntv zonder iets te doen, begrijp je, maar kijk, dit ding, hè, man, het is alsof dit ding zo had moeten zijn, brother, toen ik hoorde dat deze man uit Arnhem kwam, had ik er al over nagedacht, als ik je tegenkom, dan maak ik korte metten met je {letterlijk: maak ik je af}, wanneer ik je tegenkom, dan maak ik je een kopje kleiner[ maak ik je af], ik wist het al, ik ga het casino in, [piep], daar zitten, op dat moment heb ik mijn dag bepaald, klaar, aan de lijn, 7 maanden.  Kijk, het enige ntv [piep] , is de twee keer dat ze hem hebben gehaald, de twee keer dat ze hem gehaald hebben

1. No, but look he, I couldn't live with myself if, if, if, if, NTV (I think this means Niet Te Vertalen - can't be translated) used to know for many years, and I knew that he would have done something like this, NTV without doing something, you see, but look, this thing he, he, man, it's like this had to be, brother, when I heard this guy came from Arnhem, I had already thought about it, if I see you, I'll kill you (as an expression; not literally), I alreday knew, I'm going into the casino, (peep), sit there, and at that moment; that was it (this is my interpretion; translated literally it doesn't come across), ready, on the hook, 7 months. Look, the only NTV (peep), is the second time they came to get him, the second time they came to get him.

So it looks like he meant he couldn't live with himself without trying to figure out what Joran was hiding / wat he did. When he met Joran he seized the opportunity to try and get information out of him. He has known about the case (for a few years), sees Joran in a casino and made his decision to go for it....at least that is my interpretation of this....

very good thanks!!!
to get a independent translation! confirms that poentje is just trying to twist words and make patrick look bad.

tomorrow full program on tele curaçao.

[klaasend]

GBMW wrote:

Peter R. de Vries has spoken to Van der Eem, who wasn't available on Friday. Van der Eem had to laugh at the fact he was taped in secret.
,,Een koekje van eigen deeg noemde hij het (don't know how to translate this at the moment; it's an expression to say he's gotten what he has given...), according to De Vries. Castro & Patrick (him) have known each other for years, I think this is also a factor. Patrick says he HASN'T threatened Castro at all.

So the previous translations where it appeared the "known for years" was not Patrick and Joran but Patrick and Castro?

I don't think so. This is from a translation the company I work for has done:

1.Nee, maar kijk hè, ik zou niet met mezelf  kunnen leven, als, als, als, ntv vroeger vele jaren kende, en ik wist dat hij zoiets had gedaan, ntv zonder iets te doen, begrijp je, maar kijk, dit ding, hè, man, het is alsof dit ding zo had moeten zijn, brother, toen ik hoorde dat deze man uit Arnhem kwam, had ik er al over nagedacht, als ik je tegenkom, dan maak ik korte metten met je {letterlijk: maak ik je af}, wanneer ik je tegenkom, dan maak ik je een kopje kleiner[ maak ik je af], ik wist het al, ik ga het casino in, [piep], daar zitten, op dat moment heb ik mijn dag bepaald, klaar, aan de lijn, 7 maanden.  Kijk, het enige ntv [piep] , is de twee keer dat ze hem hebben gehaald, de twee keer dat ze hem gehaald hebben

1. No, but look he, I couldn't live with myself if, if, if, if, NTV (I think this means Niet Te Vertalen - can't be translated) used to know for many years, and I knew that he would have done something like this, NTV without doing something, you see, but look, this thing he, he, man, it's like this had to be, brother, when I heard this guy came from Arnhem, I had already thought about it, if I see you, I'll kill you (as an expression; not literally), I alreday knew, I'm going into the casino, (peep), sit there, and at that moment; that was it (this is my interpretion; translated literally it doesn't come across), ready, on the hook, 7 months. Look, the only NTV (peep), is the second time they came to get him, the second time they came to get him.

So it looks like he meant he couldn't live with himself without trying to figure out what Joran was hiding / wat he did. When he met Joran he seized the opportunity to try and get information out of him. He has known about the case (for a few years), sees Joran in a casino and made his decision to go for it....at least that is my interpretation of this....

GBMW - thanks

Some are saying that Patrick said he has known Joran for years, that's what I was trying to clarify.

So you are saying Patrick has known about the CASE and when he saw Joran in the Casino he decides to "go for it".  If I understand you correctly, that makes alot more sense. 

[Anna]

GBMW--Thanks for the translation.  The case and not Joran.

I think if we could hear all of what Patrick said, it would turn out much like this.  Translation has long been a problem in getting accurate information about this investigation. 

I think so few people speak Papiamento well that they are able to get away with making claims to just about anything being said. 

The idea seems to be that if they can discredit Patrick, we will forget what Joran said.  Same thing if they can discredit Natalee and Beth, we will forget what Joran did to her.

.