Sandra Cantu #3 4/15/09 -4/27/09

[klaasend]

Serenity -

Evidence shows Sandra Cantu was raped with a foreign object then murdered.   According to LE Melissa is responsible for that.  That makes Melissa a sexual predator.  I'd be willing to bet that Sandra will be found to have had drugs in her system as well.

Just because the girl with MH in the park incident didn't show signs of molestation, only drugs, does not make Melissa any LESS a sexual predator and murderer.  ALSO, if it turns out that Melissa simply drugged the girls so they could be molested by someone else to make child porn, Melissa is still a sexual predator, IMO.

[Serenity7]

There's no chance of a false positive for Benzo in the context of this case or any similar case.  When a medical examiner conducts an autopsy and an initial test returns a positive for the presence of a drug, the test is then confirmed by a more specific method.  For Benzos, typically gas chromatography mass spectrophotometry (GCMS) is used.   If that test shows a positive, then it's a "without a doubt" positive test.

And no, it wouldn't surprise me a bit if the autopsy results on SANDRA come back showing that there were high levels of benzos in her system. Valium or some such probably. Either a fatal level or a near fatal level would be my guess. And then either smothering, drowning, or some other breathing obstructed cause of death. My opinion.

But I've been talking about the second child that was taken by MH to the park, the police were called, MH took this second child home, the mother carried the child to the hospital (presumably because she was acting not normal) and the hospital said there were benzos in her system. The police have stated, on CNN, that this was not pursued and that they can't comment further to "protect the integrity of the case and MH's rights to a fair trial." Then a couple of months later Sandra disappeared.

[goodnmad]

In fairness, until late last eve I believed it was as well. Did you read the piece or did you make the Cain connection, just curious.

 I hate to say this but I got the distinct impression that this mother was basically scared out of filing something. As in, you will be the first person they investigate, blah blah. I hope like hell I am wrong. I cannot get past this was preventable so I dont know how the hell the cantu's will
B

yes, I read your latest post.

I gave Cain the benefit of the doubt until I could not.

I agree this sounds like a possible police screw up. The consequences of which are horrible. 

[JessStar]

I agree with you Anna 100%.  If the defense can come up with a legitimate reason, they should be allowed to do it.  But they have to pass the "legitimacy" test first. 

Oh, and I suppose I should mention, the discussion about poppies causing a false positive is neither here nor there.  To the extent it is POSSIBLE to test a false positive, the false positive would be the presence of opiates.  Benzos aren't in the opiate family.

But are there substances that can cause benzo false positive results? Understand, I believe that MH very likely gave the girl a valium or two and doped her up. But PROVING that might be harder than all get out...especially if some common children's meds or a trip to the dentist produce the same results. Especially if the child came back otherwise unharmed.

That said, I think the prosecution has a pretty strong case to be made for a second kidnapping charge with this other child...if the hospital records finding benzos in her system are still available. But according to the police Sgt. on CNN, there was never even a complaint brought by the part. As he said, "We ALMOST had something filed." Which means....nothing was filed.

There's no chance of a false positive for Benzo in the context of this case or any similar case.  When a medical examiner conducts an autopsy and an initial test returns a positive for the presence of a drug, the test is then confirmed by a more specific method.  For Benzos, typically gas chromatography mass spectrophotometry (GCMS) is used.   If that test shows a positive, then it's a "without a doubt" positive test.

Most employment and even DOT testing is done at small independent labs that do not have the equipment afforded to the State of California which would go all the way up to the best in the Nation at the FBI who is involved in this case.   I do think the ME results are being done within the state, however, but they would be done on the best equipment in the State and are not likely to result in a false anything.

With indepenedent labs one never knows how old the equipment is or how sensitive it may be.  But with the State, where lives are routinely in the balance, it is just the best available for the purpose and false readings would have to be very rare as people could be falsely convicted of all manner of crimes.

There would be few to no false readings in State lab testing equipment or the appeals and wrongful convictions would result in total chaos within the judicial system.

I tend to totally believe the state lab results.

JMO

You may be right, but I seem to recall Sheneman being asked where the exam was being conducted and he said Quantico, which is an FBI lab.  Not just an FBI lab, but the most state of the art, technologically advanced lab in the world.  Now he might have been talking about other physical evidence, I'm not sure.

[Anna]

I am not any "you people" and am only stating my opinions and slant on how I see things unfolding.

I consider penetration with a foreign objects a form of sexual abuse and think LE has a reason for that charge other than trying to force anything.  They have nothing to gain from that and neither do I.

That said, we are all entitled to our opinions and thoughts and take on the crime and the investigation and I do support the expression of same without undue criticism as long as it is the post that is confronted and not the poster personally.

LE would sure have egg on their face if they couldn't back up their basic charges with some form of evidence.  Evidence to which we are not privy at this point in time.

I just hope some more facts are released before the gag orders bring any information to a screeching halt.

I am NOT locked into any particular theory at this point, BTW, and will gladly go with the ebb and flow of information as it becomes available.

And, yes, there is always the exception and also the first time for everything concept as well.

[Serenity7]

Wow, that one hurt.  I can't respond.

I've done psychic readings with the police three or four other times. It doesn't get easy. Sometimes you just have to say it like it is. The WHOLE THING is horrific. That anything like this could ever be done...BY ANYONE FOR ANY REASON...is monstrous. Particularly so toward a child.

But it is what it is. And you have to look at it objectively.

[Blink34]

Serenity 7-
With all due respect, we do have a victim of sex abuse at the hands of Melissa Huckaby, Sandra Cantu.

Just because you dont believe it is possible, but fail to acknowledge the extensive examples of same, previously provided by Jess star does not mean it isnt so.

This is not a pleasant subject, but I am hopeful the interest is in finding answers based on facts, not our personal beliefs or experiences. The facts as they have been presented are that Sandra was raped with a foreign instrument, and Huckaby drugged a child in January whom she took off the premises for several hours without permission.

[Anna]

I agree with you Anna 100%.  If the defense can come up with a legitimate reason, they should be allowed to do it.  But they have to pass the "legitimacy" test first. 

Oh, and I suppose I should mention, the discussion about poppies causing a false positive is neither here nor there.  To the extent it is POSSIBLE to test a false positive, the false positive would be the presence of opiates.  Benzos aren't in the opiate family.

But are there substances that can cause benzo false positive results? Understand, I believe that MH very likely gave the girl a valium or two and doped her up. But PROVING that might be harder than all get out...especially if some common children's meds or a trip to the dentist produce the same results. Especially if the child came back otherwise unharmed.

That said, I think the prosecution has a pretty strong case to be made for a second kidnapping charge with this other child...if the hospital records finding benzos in her system are still available. But according to the police Sgt. on CNN, there was never even a complaint brought by the part. As he said, "We ALMOST had something filed." Which means....nothing was filed.

There's no chance of a false positive for Benzo in the context of this case or any similar case.  When a medical examiner conducts an autopsy and an initial test returns a positive for the presence of a drug, the test is then confirmed by a more specific method.  For Benzos, typically gas chromatography mass spectrophotometry (GCMS) is used.   If that test shows a positive, then it's a "without a doubt" positive test.

Most employment and even DOT testing is done at small independent labs that do not have the equipment afforded to the State of California which would go all the way up to the best in the Nation at the FBI who is involved in this case.   I do think the ME results are being done within the state, however, but they would be done on the best equipment in the State and are not likely to result in a false anything.

With independent labs one never knows how old the equipment is or how sensitive it may be.  But with the State, where lives are routinely in the balance, it is just the best available for the purpose and false readings would have to be very rare as people could be falsely convicted of all manner of crimes.

There would be few to no false readings in State lab testing equipment or the appeals and wrongful convictions would result in total chaos within the judicial system.

I tend to totally believe the state lab results.

JMO

You may be right, but I seem to recall Sheneman being asked where the exam was being conducted and he said Quantico, which is an FBI lab.  Not just an FBI lab, but the most state of the art, technologically advanced lab in the world.  Now he might have been talking about other physical evidence, I'm not sure.

Oh, good.  I did not catch his saying that but that would remove just about any possibility of errors and is even better than the State lab.  And can be faster as well.   Some states have a huge backlog and it takes even longer than at the larger facility.

And they have all manner of protocols for the prevention of errors or any kind of cross contamination as not only lives in criminal cases but the national security can depend on the results.

Even more confident in lab results from Quantico.  That's another positive for the LE in this investigation, they called in the FBI from the start.  I remain mostly favorably impressed with LE in this.

Only concern is the 60 with the child porn we don't seem to be hearing so much about.  But who knows what could be happening behind the scenes even on that.  I really hope something major.

[JessStar]

I agree with you Anna 100%.  If the defense can come up with a legitimate reason, they should be allowed to do it.  But they have to pass the "legitimacy" test first. 

Oh, and I suppose I should mention, the discussion about poppies causing a false positive is neither here nor there.  To the extent it is POSSIBLE to test a false positive, the false positive would be the presence of opiates.  Benzos aren't in the opiate family.

But are there substances that can cause benzo false positive results? Understand, I believe that MH very likely gave the girl a valium or two and doped her up. But PROVING that might be harder than all get out...especially if some common children's meds or a trip to the dentist produce the same results. Especially if the child came back otherwise unharmed.

That said, I think the prosecution has a pretty strong case to be made for a second kidnapping charge with this other child...if the hospital records finding benzos in her system are still available. But according to the police Sgt. on CNN, there was never even a complaint brought by the part. As he said, "We ALMOST had something filed." Which means....nothing was filed.

There's no chance of a false positive for Benzo in the context of this case or any similar case.  When a medical examiner conducts an autopsy and an initial test returns a positive for the presence of a drug, the test is then confirmed by a more specific method.  For Benzos, typically gas chromatography mass spectrophotometry (GCMS) is used.   If that test shows a positive, then it's a "without a doubt" positive test.

Jess-
are you referring to a lab test of a live person or just in an autopsy.
The Benzos were in the first girl. Presumably in Sandra as well though

GCMS can be used on ANY sample, whether it comes from a live person, a block of wood, a piece of string, you name it.  It's bullet proof and is the gold standard.

[JessStar]

Wow, that one hurt.  I can't respond.

I've done psychic readings with the police three or four other times. It doesn't get easy. Sometimes you just have to say it like it is. The WHOLE THING is horrific. That anything like this could ever be done...BY ANYONE FOR ANY REASON...is monstrous. Particularly so toward a child.

But it is what it is. And you have to look at it objectively.

I'm all for being objective without being insensitive.

[JessStar]

Wow, that one hurt.  I can't respond.

I've done psychic readings with the police three or four other times. It doesn't get easy. Sometimes you just have to say it like it is. The WHOLE THING is horrific. That anything like this could ever be done...BY ANYONE FOR ANY REASON...is monstrous. Particularly so toward a child.

But it is what it is. And you have to look at it objectively.

I'm all for being objective without being insensitive.

WOW! That was my 100th post!  I'm catching up Klaas!

[Blink34]

Im familiar Jess, thank you for clarifying.

I was trying to discern if you were saying it was protocol if the benzo screen came back inconclusive or other for the little girl, that they would use the gas spechtrometer. Got it.
B  

[Serenity7]

I have no idea what test was performed.  But from what I understand from reading the posts, the test was confirmed by clinical symptoms--the little girl was slurring her speech and staggering when she walked.

Which could be do to the fact that she was doped out on something slipped to her by MH at the park.

Or it could be do to the fact that you've got a seven year old girl out at 10:00 PM at night taking her to the hospital looooooong after it's her bedtime.

That's a tough call for a cop to make right there on the spot. Especially if the mother who brought the kid in seems to be "in her cups" as they say, and the cops are finding themselves seriously wondering if the kid did just accidentally get her mothers medicine instead of the Kids Chewable vitamin for bedtime.

Should the cops have pursued a kidnapping charge more? Well...with the benefit of hindsight, it might have stopped a murder. Or MH might have just gotten out on bail and committed other acts, or the DA may have looked at the flimsy evidence of how the kid ended up with benzos in her system...(from mom's supply? from a piece of "candy" she found on the ground? From MH? Who knows where from...) and the fact that you have an unmolested kid who was in the company of a Sunday school teacher...and well..........what was he or the cops suppose to do?

Sure I'm all in favor of cops hiring psychics to locate future crimes...*smile*....but it ain't gonna happen!

[cookie]

Wow, that one hurt.  I can't respond.

I've done psychic readings with the police three or four other times. It doesn't get easy. Sometimes you just have to say it like it is. The WHOLE THING is horrific. That anything like this could ever be done...BY ANYONE FOR ANY REASON...is monstrous. Particularly so toward a child.

But it is what it is. And you have to look at it objectively.

I'm all for being objective without being insensitive.

I agree....Sandra is so much more than a decomposing body...sorry, that bothered me too...

[Anna]

A child who does not recall being molested would be more accurate description in my opinion.

Molestation can take many forms.

[Serenity7]

Serenity 7-
With all due respect, we do have a victim of sex abuse at the hands of Melissa Huckaby, Sandra Cantu.

Just because you dont believe it is possible, but fail to acknowledge the extensive examples of same, previously provided by Jess star does not mean it isnt so.

This is not a pleasant subject, but I am hopeful the interest is in finding answers based on facts, not our personal beliefs or experiences. The facts as they have been presented are that Sandra was raped with a foreign instrument, and Huckaby drugged a child in January whom she took off the premises for several hours without permission.

In all due respect, I'm afraid we do not. What we have at the moment is an ALLEGATION of sexual abuse by the prosecutor. We have statements made that Sandra appears to have suffered "genital trauma" from the medical examiner on her case. Until these charges are born up in court and examined by a jury and judge, they are...both legally and morally...ONLY allegations. Accusing someone of a crime is not PROOF of a crime.

I respect your opinion on this matter. In fact I share it. I think that she is guilty. Of murder. Of kidnapping. But my belief does not constitute proof of these. Nor should it. Respectfully...

[no rose colored glasses]

so if not to molest or otherwise physically harm the child, why drug her? it's not like a case of a sitter drugging a child to get him or her to sleep. right?

so if the 1st child was drugged and perhaps photos of a sexual nature were taken but nothing was done that would leave evidence on the medical exam -- isn't that still sexual abuse?

While following another case, there were posts and articles I read, that these people that molest children, know how to molest were there is no evidence of the molesting. So if a mother was giving a child a bath, or undressing the child, there would not be anything, to where you would notice that something had been done to your child. Now, I don't know what all happened in the hospital and what they all checked out on this little girl.......

[JessStar]

I have no idea what test was performed.  But from what I understand from reading the posts, the test was confirmed by clinical symptoms--the little girl was slurring her speech and staggering when she walked.

Which could be do to the fact that she was doped out on something slipped to her by MH at the park.

Or it could be do to the fact that you've got a seven year old girl out at 10:00 PM at night taking her to the hospital looooooong after it's her bedtime.

That's a tough call for a cop to make right there on the spot. Especially if the mother who brought the kid in seems to be "in her cups" as they say, and the cops are finding themselves seriously wondering if the kid did just accidentally get her mothers medicine instead of the Kids Chewable vitamin for bedtime.

Should the cops have pursued a kidnapping charge more? Well...with the benefit of hindsight, it might have stopped a murder. Or MH might have just gotten out on bail and committed other acts, or the DA may have looked at the flimsy evidence of how the kid ended up with benzos in her system...(from mom's supply? from a piece of "candy" she found on the ground? From MH? Who knows where from...) and the fact that you have an unmolested kid who was in the company of a Sunday school teacher...and well..........what was he or the cops suppose to do?

Sure I'm all in favor of cops hiring psychics to locate future crimes...*smile*....but it ain't gonna happen!

With evidence of benzos in her system, seen in a purple Kia Sportage, having been taken without her parent's permission, from the same mobile home park as Sandra, being remarkably similar in appearance to Sandra, the same age, under remarkably similar circumstances, with MH admitting to it, and making up a story about speaking on the cell phone, and admitting to having been questioned about the drugging incident, and the cops saying they dropped it because they couldn't prove MH gave her anything due to elapsed time. . . oh, I get it now.  You convinced me.  Must be a coincidence.

And what does the condition of the MOTHER have to do with it?????  The cops were faced with a drugged child for God's sake!  At that point, I don't care who gave her the drugs.  The cops should have investigated the incident!! If she somehow got ahold of them at home and ate them, then children services should have investigated because the parents were endangering their child's life!!!  Using your logic, if the little girl would have come across the parent's loaded 9mm handgun and shot herself, then the cops should have turned a blind eye because the mom was looped!

Sorry if I'm coming off a little strong, but there's a big difference between taking an objective view of the facts as we know them and taking speculation to the outer limits by suggesting that the first child's "Drugging" incident can be explained by suggesting she was tired.

[Serenity7]

With evidence of benzos in her system, seen in a purple Kia Sportage, having been taken without her parent's permission, from the same mobile home park as Sandra, being remarkably similar in appearance to Sandra, the same age, under remarkably similar circumstances, with MH admitting to it, and making up a story about speaking on the cell phone, and admitting to having been questioned about the drugging incident, and the cops saying they dropped it because they couldn't prove MH gave her anything due to elapsed time. . . oh, I get it now.  You convinced me.  Must be a coincidence.

And what does the condition of the MOTHER have to do with it?????  The cops were faced with a drugged child for God's sake!  At that point, I don't care who gave her the drugs.  The cops should have investigated the incident!! If she somehow got ahold of them at home and ate them, then children services should have investigated because the parents were endangering their child's life!!!  Using your logic, if the little girl would have come across the parent's loaded 9mm handgun and shot herself, then the cops should have turned a blind eye because the mom was looped!

Sorry if I'm coming off a little strong, but there's a big difference between taking an objective view of the facts as we know them and taking speculation to the outer limits by suggesting that the first child's "Drugging" incident can be explained by suggesting she was tired.

You must have missed my post when I said I thought MH had taken the little girl to the park to kill her. There are people who carry other peoples kids to the movies, to the ice cream shop, to the grocery store, to parks, to schools, to churches...all over this country. Every day. All I'm saying is how are the cops suppose to know this wasn't an innocent mix up? How are they suppose to know that this ISN'T just a tired child? And then after they find out it is drugs...how do they know where it came from?

I personally saw a Wal mart  shut down for a while one day when they issued a Code Adam. Kidnapped or missing kid. Was a huge deal. Wouldn't let anyone leave the store. Cops everywhere. Someone finally thought to call the grandmother. She had seen the girl in the store and just...took her! Went home! Didn't tell anybody! Cops deal with those kinds of situations 99 times out of 100. Every day. Somebody forgets to call and say, "I took the kid home" and it becomes a nation wide alert. Typically and usually...it's nothing. It's a mistake. Someone just messes up. As a cop, I can understand why they'd rather err on the side of assuming that a crime HASN'T occurred as opposed to arresting someone falsely.

As to the condition of the mother.....Imagine for a moment you're a cop. You've been called to the hospital. The mother of the child is drunk. I mean she's falling down, slurring her words, throwing up her dinner drunk. She starts talking about how her kid has been kidnapped, and how she wants the person responsible thrown in jail,...etc etc.

The hospital then tells the police, "Yeah, the kid has drugs in her system." So the cops think about it a minute. It's been SEVERAL HOURS since the kid was returned. Mom is looped. Mom is accusing a SUNDAY SCHOOL TEACHER...the granddaughter of a local pastor...of being a kidnapper...and mom can't stand up straight. Maybe the kid was drugged by MH...or maybe Mom is so drunk she accidentally gave her kid some Xanax from her OWN prescription instead. Maybe the cops even ask the hospital staff, "You got any other evidence? Bruises? Cuts? Evidence of sexual assault?" And the hospital people say, "No. We got none of that."

What are the cops suppose to do? 

Was I there? Do I know this was how it was? No...I wasn't there. I don't what the cops saw. But IF it is anywhere close to what I just described...what were they suppose to do? Arrest a Sunday school teacher because she took a friend of her daughters to the park? Oh, yeah...that would have made it to court.

Like I say...hindsight's 20/20. Should they have arrested MH at the time? Now I think we'd all have to agree "Absolutely yes!" At the time though...I can see how this would have been seen as a minor mix up by someone who'd had a few too many to drink.

[Nut44x4]

O/T Re: Nicole Penix Vanzant 27 - Missing 1/19/09 Menifee County / KY
remains found/identified
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4446.new#new