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yoo hoo  anyone here? lol

What do we know about PVDS - that he is or was studying to be a judge, occasionally acted as a substitute judge, is respected by his legal colleagues, has 3 or 4 children, a wife who teaches art, has on some occasions gone to the local legal casino.

We do not know how much or how often he drinks
We do not know how much or how often he gambles
We do not know if he has or doesn't have affairs, illegitimate children, etc

We do know that he gave his son the legal advice to say nothing - which numerous attorneys on the tv have said they too would have advised

oh, we know that he doesn't always know if his son gets up and gets to school on time

but then, why let facts get in the way?

We're all making our way over, but there is now a lag in the news since the hearing didn't occur.

I am...watching FOX sorry.

Hey Angie, I made it over and I wasn't sure if anyone else was here:)

I am i wonder where the rest is :lol:

Why didn't the hearing occur?

Im here give me some more theories to poke full of holes.

I see others made it..!!

HannieC, you had asked about the involvement of Steve Croes, and I had posted this (this has been out there for awhile, it's not new stuff):

http://www.riehlworldview.com/carnivorous_conservative/2005/06/croes_update_1.html#comments

It's a current comment page going at Riehl

"The Vigilante news paper from Curacao Reports that the Croes guy might have been involved in breaking and entering on of the fishersman's huts, where appearently a fisherman reported that ropes, ankers, and tape have been stolen"

coco wrote:




Aint that the truth, you`re absolutly right on that one !! :wink:

Made it over!

Was just taking a look at Diario. If anyone's interested, PVDS's lawyer is ARIE SWAEN (http://www.diarioaruba.com/diabierna/noticia/news5.html).

I wonder if Greta's going to interview him soon?

The judge missed the connection flight..hearing set for Sunday 8:30 am

youwantanswers

No, the reason they can't find her is cuz they're not looking hard enough...

Sorry if the thread switch wasn't graceful. 18 windows open at once had to to grab RB off the deck to help :)

The judge missed the flight.. hmmmm... reported on FOX

Absolut - you and RB and Tom and Red and Cat are doing an awesome job given the 24/7 pace here - Thank you!

Havn't they hanged him yet? WTF is taking so long?

So----- 1:30 Leave NH leaves C&C's thinking she's getting a ride to HI. She's got the mickey in the system. 1:45 till she's out and JVS unloads her where he plan's to "get some". 2:00 JVS "satisfied" enjoying the afterglow, ready to return NH to HI. Calls in the "taxi" 2:10 "taxi" arrives as JVS realizes something is wrong with NH. The three try to figure out what to do. 2:30 NH is dead and DA3 know it, decide they need advice from PVS. 2:40 arrive at PVS home. 2:45 wake daddy and explain problem. 3:00 Daddy worried and trying to come up w/ a plan. According to Weather.com, sun comes up @6:17 today, probably @6:25 5/30 but light @ 6:00 or a little before. So you've got less than 3 hours for inexperienced murderers to either A: hide a body so that nobody on a 70sq mile island with an average of 1000 permanent residents per sq/mi plus who knows how many tourists won't EVER find it? Are these guys outdoorsmen? They've got shovels and plastic and whatever else handy. They know the "Perfect spot". Nobody sees a car pulling down a back road? Hard to believe. So B: Dump the body in the water. But---bodies float, so -- disembowel the body? Use weights? Where do they come from? How much is enough? How do you get them and the body to where the disposal occurs. It could be a pool on the island -- I doubt it, something would turn up sooner or later. It couldn't be just offshore, the body, or parts of it would wash up sooner or later. Take it way offshore -- maybe but your telling me you organize the boat, personel, wieghts, move the body and get this all done in less than 3 hours. I don't think so, when your a wreck like they all would have been in this situation, NOTHING GOES RIGHT. It just doesn't work. If she's dead, the body was stored to be disposed of later or is still in storage. Otherwise she was handed off to somebody(s) else. I don't know if she's still alive but something isn't right about the "She's dead" theories either.

Hooray for your post, does a jury in the united states convict people on bases of rumours aswell ?

DITTO   :)

I am sticking with my theory that even if they round up the Prime Minister, his family, and the entire Dutch Royal Family, and "interrogate" them all until they confess vaporizing Natalee as a group using  classified prototype molecular dematerialization rays developed by Raytheon, and Condi Rice goes down to Aruba personally to encourage closure, Mrs. Beth will be like a tree that is planted by the water until she gets her daughter.

Thanks. I will pass on the post.

I'm hoping they look closer at those mine shafts.........seems like a good place to hide a body........still holing out hope for her being hidden in some house somewhere tho'

An other thing what I really do not understand

Why have all the theories related to the natalee disapearance has to be related with sexs and drugs ????

IS every crime related to sex and drugs ??????

Maybe Joran is telling the truth. They lied to try to keep from getting involved in this case. Natalee was walking alone from Marriott beach to Holiday Inn when someone kidnapped her.

I have a irie feeling that Joran spoke the truth about that he left her on the beach b/c she wanted him to. His only mistake seems to me that he lied about it. If you hear the next day that a girl is missing and you are 17 years old and am afraid that they all think that you did something to that girl I think it`s humanly possible for some people to do what he did and thus lie...


That`s my opinion .....sue me :wink:

Coco we also know he is an attorney (meester in de rechten) and a longtime employee of the Dutch justice system on Aruba.  The reason given in an article in Dutch posted recently by Hennie why they are importing a judge from curacao ffor the case is to avoid the appearance of conflict of interest becaue v/d sloot works in the court on Aruba.

i suspect he is being held on a technicality to pressure his son and i doubt it will work

Abt the mineshafts. If you're talking about the phosphate mine shafts, I've looked in one, besides it's a 14 meter drop.
The other mine, I do not know if people searched them, or the goldmineshafts.

The thing is that the locations of these mine shafts are pretty obscure, only a person really interested in them would know where they are.

The time frame on the initial day is a very valid point.  3 hours isnt really enough time to permanently dispose of a body that you didnt plan beforehand.

Bendex - we actually do it all the time - we just forget about those cases!

Check out www.wm3.org sometime for one horrifying tale of american justice  - and there we have the death penalty in play!

AMEN!!! (wondering if they have a "life" lately)  :D

Xactly - They didn't have a lot of time. HMMM!

I agree Hannie and Inspector.. perhaps ..and I say PERHAPS JVS is innocent??  I never did hear anymore about the dude that was on the same flight as NH.. stayed at the HI..and nobody can find his ass either?? Maybe I  missed something.. Anyone hear anymore about that???

poke poke

People dont lie about something when they didnt do anything wrong, he changed his story 3 times and brought in guys to cover his alibi.  Thats not being afraid thats called being guilty.

I think there was an article about this on Diario? Don't speak ppmento, but I speak Spanish and it seems related (can somebody translate?):

http://www.diarioaruba.com/diabierna/local/

STUDIANTE AMERICANO NO A KEDA ARUBA

ORANJESTAD.(AAN):Tin varios rumornan ultimo dianan aki cu un mucha homber cu ta forma parti di e grupo di estudiantenan di Alabama cual Natalee tabata forma parti lo a keda atras. Un investigacion cu a wordo realiza ta indica cu e informe no ta cuadra cu berdad  ya cu e estudiante G.B. lo ta na Merca.

Segun nos tin intendi, e tambe, mescos cu e otronan a wordo scucha sigur tambe pa FBI , pa asina saca afor si e por tabata sa algo di e caso,  “Natalee”, cu tin masha atencion tanto na Aruba como na Merca, relaciona cu desaparacion di e mucha muher Mericano. Manera ta conoci, prensa internacional ainda ta na Aruba pa cubri e caso aki Nation Wide pa television Mericano.

People dont lie about something when they didnt do anything wrong, he changed his story 3 times and brought in guys to cover his alibi. Thats not being afraid thats called being guilty.

That post brought to mind Mark Hacking...pathological liar that he is.

Bendex, as I told Arubagirl earlier, we Americans love conspiracy theories. We start out with logical theories and then, if the case is left open long enough, we will have Natalee being shot by the lone gunman from the grassy knoll.  :)

Wow interesting website. I think that is the risk of having a public jury , in th netherlands the judge decides ( i believe ) but in the netherlands people where also locked up innocent due to judgemental errors.

I am not in favor of deathpenalty , anyone who is I ask them would you pull the trigger ?

Diario saying that a rumor that one of the MBH students stayed behind is not true.

I heard early on they were places of interest. I don't know where they're located in reference to Sloot's home  or the beach. But, I would think after living there 15 yrs., PVDS or one of the 4 boys more than likely knew of these places I would think.
Hopefully the sonair will be used in them......

Thanks, arubagirl.

I've been wondering something ever since this whole case began...how exactly is "Oranjestad" pronounced?

Maybe what Joran thought "was wrong" was to leave her alone on the beach. Maybe he feels responsible for this because they didn't bring her back to her hotel?

kerinTx- Wrote-"One thing for sure, Razzy...daddy's law days are over don't you think??  No matter WHAT happens. Too much info out on him that would place a black eye on his credibility-end quote" PLease inform me of what facst support your statements???????????? Just WHAT has Paulus VDSloot done to support your suggestions that his carrer is runined?????? I think way too many of you are jumpoing the gun on all this. We dont know ANYTHING at this point. All we know is that the 3 kids changed their story as to where they dropped Natalee off at, anything other than that is GLASS BALL Guessing.......Kerin Please inform us to your inside knowledge ????


GuyWdog

Iquitos - I really appreciate the information you've shared with us on PVDS' legal status and Hannie's - it's really helpful!

And Bendex - it's all about drugs and sex because we don't want to believe that "good american girls" might actually go to the beach at night with a guy - she musta been drugged!

One of the things I really appreciated when I visited in the Netherlands with my teenage daughter was the much saner attitude on sexuallity and teens - as well as the much saner attitude on drinking. We spent time with colleagues of mine who had a son the same age as my daughter (16 at the time) and they were able to go out to a club, drink beers, dance, etc - but they could not get behind the wheel of a car!  They certainly pushed their kids on academic achievement but they also gave them a lot of independence - and from what I could see, the kids were more responsible because of it. I kept thinking of the kids here whose parents claim to supervise everything but who drink and drive and get into tons of trouble. In my little town, we had 5 teens killed in various dwi accidents in just the past 2 years - but we scoff at Dutch parents ... ugh!

This should be good :) Who is going to sound it out phonetically in type?

 

HOORAH TO HOTR FOR A ROCK SOLID SCENARIO.   Timelines pay.

The face of innocence....or is it?

1.  "We dropped her off at the Holiday Inn she was drunk and didnt want any help, then we saw 2 guards walk up to her and we drove away"

oops
2.  "We dropped Natalie off with Joran at the Mariott"  Did we say Holiday inn before? sorry we meant Mariott.

3. Deepak and Satish dropped me off at home and then were supposed to drop Natalee at the HI. (courtesy of aruba girl)

oops
4. Joran -  " I called Deepak to pickme up at the Mariott at 3am"  
   Deepak - Why are you lying joran?
   Joran - OK OK I called Satish to come get me..did I say Deepak?

5.  Joran was supposed to text message us when he wanted us to come pick him up..we never got the text message.

6. ok ok ok I was with her on the beach alone in the dark at 3 am but I didnt touch her.!!!

This is not what innocent people do when questioned regarding their whereabouts.

You forgot: Deepak and Satish dropped me off at home and then were supposed to drop Natalee at the HI.

On a slow news day, check out what others are saying about Aruba case:
=====
Steve Yuhas on KOGO in San Diego asks some relevant questions in his column-
http://www.steveyuhas.com/columns/yuhas_20050621.htm
=====
Washington Post's column has dated, but thoughtful, analysis-
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/09/AR2005060901729.html
=====
Over at MediaDomain, there's an interesting thread-
http://www.mediadomain.com/cgi-bin/netforum/yandr_fan/a.cgi/3-56
=====
Read Willy Wanka's take at-
http://totallycrap.com/index.php/tc/comments/1005/
=====
The News Blog has info about party life in Aruba-
http://stevegilliard.blogspot.com/2005/06/adults-in-adult-situation.html
=====
Capital Region People has two related pages-
http://capitalregionpeople.blogspot.com/2005/06/bloggers-vs-natalee-holloway.html
with give-and-take on the case, and-
-----
http://capitalregionpeople.blogspot.com/2005/06/natalee-holloway-sold-as-slave.html
with some links on slave-trade and similar topics
-----
Enjoy.

--MC

WHOA GUY...simmer down! I have no "facts"...but do you? Have you ever seen someone's reputation trashed over rumors or innuendos? In no way was I saying that daddy is GUILTY (read the post again)...I was saying IMO his reputation and NAME may have been tarnished because of this.

You obviously feel otherwise...goodie for you.

Not changing my mind though.  :wink:

Anyone can quote me a scenario without drugs or sex ?, as you mention yourself it takes a real proffesional to hide a corpse . Even if there is a corpse I don't think that Joran panicking could plan a hiding a corpse.

OMG aruba girl you are right I totally forgot about that one.

RazzyBerry wrote:



I can certainly imagen people lie about something like that, he`s only human not a robot and don`t forget why isn`t he confessing?? Here in Holland there were 2 adult males, married, children the whole package..They were suspects in a murdercase, the police pressured them so much that finally the confessed to the murder, spend over 6 years in jail......and it is later proven that they were innocent so what about that?


And you know when you begin with a lie it`s getting worse so I don`t call anybody guilty of murder, missing, or what rumours there spreading based on a lie.

Small correction, he first said Deepak came to pick him up, and it was Deepak who said "why are you lying" at which point Joran replied, "you're right, it was Satish" - as reported - we then know nothing about what Satish's reaction was. (EDIT: source (http://www.riehlworldview.com/carnivorous_conservative/2005/06/changing_tone.html))

It doesn't make much of a difference in the grand scheme of highlighting the changing stories scenario - and I concur, innocent people do not make up several stories. If the first one was a lie, and the 2nd one wasn't and didn't change, then I'd give them the benefit of the doubt.

The Steve Yulas article appeared in Diario and was spread around to locals.

orange-i-stad   (short i sound) my best guess...

Razzy - how do you explain the cases where we have false confessions?

Greta in fact mentioned those yesterday - and there's good info on them here:http://www.innocenceproject.org/causes/falseconfessions.php

Depending upon your favored accent:

Oranjestad. Pronunciation. aw-RUH-nyuh-STAHT

Oranjestad. Pronunciation. aw-RAH-nyuh-STAHT

Oranjestad. o-RAHN-yuh-stat

Oranjestad, [ôrän'justät"]

WELL SAID!!!   lmao   :P

O rahnye stahdt

"K in TX" said: I've been wondering something ever since this whole case began...how exactly is "Oranjestead" pronounced?

RB Said: his should be good :) Who is going to sound it out phonetically in type?[/quote]

I'll go first, being from the south...one question, is that 6 syllables or 7?

After 100 or so hours of interrogation I would have suspected more inconsitencies than that... :shock:

AH, thank you!  In my Texas accent, I've been calling it Orange-e-stad!

And Bendex - it's all about drugs and sex because we don't want to believe that "good american girls" might actually go to the beach at night with a guy - she musta been drugged!

One of the things I really appreciated when I visited in the Netherlands with my teenage daughter was the much saner attitude on sexuallity and teens - as well as the much saner attitude on drinking. We spent time with colleagues of mine who had a son the same age as my daughter (16 at the time) and they were able to go out to a club, drink beers, dance, etc - but they could not get behind the wheel of a car!

I worked for a company in Barneveld, and travelled there many times. Your impression, coco, is totally on the money as far as I'm concerned, and I recall many of our "transplanted" Dutch co workers who lived here commented about the difference almost regularly in our office watercooler chats.

The face of innocence....or is it? - Fixed with the help of the board 6 lies of innocence.

1. "We dropped her off at the Holiday Inn she was drunk and didnt want any help, then we saw 2 guards walk up to her and we drove away"

oops
2. "We dropped Natalie off with Joran at the Mariott" Did we say Holiday inn before? sorry we meant Mariott.

3. Deepak and Satish dropped me off at home and then were supposed to drop Natalee at the HI. (courtesy of aruba girl)

oops
4. Joran - " I called Deepak to pickme up at the Mariott at 3am"
Deepak - Why are you lying joran?
Joran - OK OK I called Satish to come get me..did I say Deepak?

5. Joran was supposed to text message us when he wanted us to come pick him up..we never got the text message.

6. ok ok ok I was with her on the beach alone in the dark at 3 am but I didnt touch her.!!!

This is not what innocent people do when questioned regarding their whereabouts.

Mostly Americans / British pronounce righ, except they have a 'j' sound as in 'just', while it's pronounced as 'y' as in 'yet'

Hmm Geralso on foxing saying that DEF Joran and daddy and Deepak will probably ALL remain behind bars.. and Satish and Croes will more then likely get out..  BUT then again.. WHO KNOWS unitl the freaking hearing....

I'd go with Arubagirl's pronunciation--seeing as how the pronunciations I posted are from dictionaries.  Dictionaries get you in the neighborhood, but the word of a local is rock solid.   :D

Okay great piece but how does it relate that they murdered druged and raped Natalee Holloway ? where is your proof man ,

nodding to RB - my colleagues in the Netherlands spoke at length about how bad they felt for some friends who had to move with their kids who were teens to the States for work - the schooling was no where near as good and the trouble was so much worse.

I was very glad for that experience during the rest of my dtr's teen years since it gave me a much better model of parenting, imho.

I think this should be reserved for information and comments regarding Natalie.   I havent looked at that link but I will.

I believe we are going to find that the original "confession to killing her" is true and Papa told Joran to retract his confession.  Then it was "something bad happened".  One lie after another tells me they are guilty.  The Kalpoes may not be guilty of anything other than backing the story concocted by Papa.

Natalee died or was killed while in the company of Joran.  Dad either helped with disposal of the body and/or alibi.  Body could have been hidden and disposed of between 6/1-6/9.

As in the Dutch Jan (pr. Yan). Being a French speaker, I was pronouncing it with a soft 'j' in my head. Thanks for phoneticising it for us :)

I'm sure if you beat him with a baseball bat you'll get even more versions than that! :lol:

If everything was consentual, then why didn't Natalee just brush herself off afterward and walk back with Joran to the HI? I am assuming that he would have been gentleman enough to walk those 500 meters back to the hotel with her.

Weird cause they don't need a hearing to release only to hold.

Joran reported that she said that she wanted to be alone. Which opens up a possibility for someone else to kidnap her before she reaches the Holiday Inn. :roll:

One of the very first thing interrogators do is look for inconsistencies regarding statements given by possible witnesses, suspects.  Those inconsistencies are Red Flags that tell detectives they are either on the right path or not.

Why were the guards let go? Because they stuck to one story, their alibi never changed and were released.  An innocent person has nothing to change so their are no variations in their stories.


These kids on the other hand REEK.

CNN, which has covered this case professionlly, did a little piece on the currents around aruba a few days back.  they talked to local experts who said they all run west toward panama and very fast.  sure she might float in three days unless weighted tbut she would be a long way off by then.  another expert said, "put a foot in the water at night anywere around aruba and you are on radar."   I thought they could put her on tatoo and dump her on the next voyage.  Maybe thats why the police think they need Steve.  

FYI if you are not watching, Geraldo just said paulus is w/o a job while we just posted an article in a Dutch paper saying Paulus works in the court in Aruba.  Who to believe?   judge could not get from curacao to aruba because flight was cancelled?  This it mickey mouse.  Whey don't they send the Tatoo for him?  The can take Natalee out of the reefer and drop her on the way.

Geraldo also interviewed "the justice minister" who said that he believes PVDS is being held to pressure Joran - now that's an interesting statment.


then again, as soon as Geraldo appears on screen I cringe

Thats interesting..  maybe they will get out tonight then and others will be brought in.. Geraldo~Retardo didnt say a whole heck of alot.. other then that..!!

HI Coco ,

Great piece a must read, how massa histerica can lead to wrong convictions.


http://www.wm3.org

Not true Razzy, reports I read said it was the security guard that didn't have their story straight. Apparantly one of them "forgot" exactly what happened. People do forget things you know...

And how many women EVER want to "be alone" after just having sex with a guy?

show me the link to these errors.

Are you saying that they are using torture and beatings that has led them to change their stories?

The are using intense interrogation techniques, which are no doubt unpleasant, but please - the Dutch have very high standards - and I highly doubt these changing stories have been obtained through beatings and borderline torture techniques.

On that note, it's time for me to take a break I'll bbl to most likely, play catch up.

they are not allowed to touch suspects during interrogations in aruba.

If NH wanted to be "alone" while joran left her, how would he know "something bad happened"???  Just a thought  :)

Why would she want to be alone, after having a romantic evening with the man of her dreams? No :roll: given. Just asking the question.

 

he says (we hear) he was gentlemanly enough to leave her be when she asked him to and now he is in deep kimchee for doing so.

I hate when justice is not served but what I hate more when their is injustice.

Iquietos, there is only one plane connection between the islands (BonaireExcel), and like all airlines from Aruba / Neth. Antilles, they SUCK!!!!!!!!

I don't find it at all odd that the flight has been cancelled.

I don't understand why NH would ASK to be alone on a beach at 3 am.

"Something bad happened" He is actually a virgin and come up impotent.

Inspector thinks she wanted him to come back and choke her one more time for old times sake.

If everything was consentual, then why didn't Natalee just brush herself off afterward and walk back with Joran to the HI? I am assuming that he would have been gentleman enough to walk those 500 meters back to the hotel with her.

That's the 64K question, isn't it?

 I do think that there's relevance in cultural difference simply because it can influence how we communicate/relate/act with each other. IMO for example,  this is true in a much more subtle form between Yankees and Southerners here in the States - take someone from PA and transplant them in Alabama or vice versa (and no, I'm not picking on either - I have family in both) and you should hear what's said. It's just different, that's all.

Absolut...you cracked the case!!!

Was it ever confirmed that NH actually DID have sex with JVS??

Then why lie about it consistently? Why did he lie before there was any media attention on this case at all? He's being charged with murder now, and yet he's going to lie, for what reason?

NH didnt ask for anything that happened to her.  Thats the whole point.

LOL! I guess there is another theory there.  :D

Nope, people just like to assume that.

LOL  OMG  I feel guilty for even laughing at that!

arubagirl,

Thanks for all your information.

Quick question:

Is there a cash machine near the high-rise McDonald's?

Thanks, again.

This was from some early fox news reports with the security guards lawyers. Part of the reason they were held was because their storys didnt match. Maybe you can find it on the site with all the videos?

Maybe they never had sex...maybe she took one look and laughed so hard he got pissed and that's when "something bad happened".

To those in Aruba, I have to believe there's no better time than the present to lobby to your cable company that they add Fox News to your basic subscription package.

Here's the link to the list of international cable providers offering FNC:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,77537,00.html

These are the cable companies in the Caribbean that already carry Fox.

Anguilla - CCCH Ltd.  
Barbados - CBC Mutichannel
BVI - BVI Cable TV
Venezuela - Supercable
Nevis - CCCH Ltd.
Trinidad - T and T Transcable
St. Kitts - The Cable  
St. Lucia - St. Lucia Cablevision
Jamaica - Allied/Jamaica Amalgamated Cable System/Logic One Ltd/  
Oliver/Sauce Communication Network/Telstar
Grenada - Grenada Cable
Dominican Republic - Tricom
Cayman - WestStar

And in the Netherlands - Casema  www.casema.nl

THAT is an excellent question, IMO.

You read you find it.

I have that theme that runs through my head every 6 seconds this one hit me at 5:10pm and 36 seconds to be exact.

Professor wrote:




Maybe just b/c she had enough drinks and wasn`t feeling well, maybe she didn`t want someone to see that she was out on the beach with a guy etc.. who knows it seems plausible. If I was with a guy on a beach and i had enough i would just say the same, leave me I can handle it i`ll walk alone to my hotel...

The somthing bad happend quote came from aruba police official , who later retracted the quote and admitted it was false and was falsy informed by sources who had bad intentions.

Actually Getagrip - there are some links on Google to a UN report on human  rights reports on Aruba - I can't figure out if the info is completely up to date but it appears that there have been questions raised about treatment and conditions of detainees at least as of 2000.
I'm wondering if the building of the new wing of the KIA relates to those questions.



Bendex - there is a brilliant HBO documentary on the WM3 case - and a followup documentary produced a year later - the first is called Paradise Lost. The second builds a very good case for the father of one of the victims as the actual killer (including the fact that he had all his teeth removed after he was asked to give a dental imprint to attempt to match tooth marks, etc) - it's very chilling and always makes me wonder when we see these sorts of "we all *know* they're guilty!" cases.

Jeeze...I didn't mean to say "SEX".  It was an assumption...based on what the rest of the post had already said.

If I remember correctly one of the guards forgot to tell police that he went jogging with the other guard on the beach that monring hence the inoncsistency.

well its like today.  i saw a firetruck go by.  then i saw a firetruck leave a nearby station, then a fire truck and an emt vehicle went by and i said to my son, "something bad happened".   that quote may not be attribuable to Joran anyway and maybe he said "maybe something bad happened to her."  Now if you were home and the cops and a passel of gringos was on your dooryard asking you questions in the midle of the night about the girl you were with might you not say, maybe something bad happend to her after I left her on the beach (or at the holiday inn).  But you are right that the intitial lie is a serious drag on his credibility.

Wow I read the internetpage very good story now someone willing to remove all his teeth to go trough an ordeal like that would be very suspicious.

Facing a dearth of solid info, it's interesting to note that Oranjestad is named for Dutch royal family, originally from William of Orange, whose nickname was William The Silent.

-MC

Gotta get some of my things done here.. and eat as well.. Catch ya all in a little bit

He heard that "something" bad happened to her. So the Kalpoes covered for him - said they were with him the whole time. No one wants to be the last one to see someone that has disappeared. Maybe the father helped them cook up the story?

MaggieFF yes there is. About 20meters away. It's from Aruba Bank, and it's right across from McD.

RB, I'm not saying that NH asked for anything that happened to her, I'm just saying that Joran's story that NH asked to stay behind is not true in my opinion.

Thanks arubagirl!!!

I understand, arubagirl.  And it's possible we will never know...

Well Maggie, there could be your video, hm?

This post is 100% ON THE MONEY!!! There is NO WAY these clowns get their act together to accomplish all that in 3 hours or less! There simply HAS to be something else at work here. Plus, how do we explain Joran being able to go to school the next day?

Something very involved has HAD to have happened AFTER Joran was with Natalee that night. Something that has yet to be explained.

IF Natalee died there on that beach and Joran had to get a body disposed of, there would be cellphone calls all over the place, and people being woken up and called to come to the rescue. These things do not happen in a vacuum, there would be evidence.

He initially lied about 24 hrs after the disappearence. That was well before the something bad happened quote.  Their wasn't any media attention until tuesday really, so why cook up a fake story in those 24 hrs, if they were innocent and didn't know what happened to her and didn't know she was missing until the family showed up.

It is my impression that there is a strong preference among mainstream Americans for the term "intense interrogation."

This case has gone on for some time, and I think the US has a strong preference at this time to have the media frenzy, etc. conclude.

I have said before I think the Aruban authorities have bent over backwards to be sensitive to American culture, as well as the wishes of their large neighbor to the north, probably more than many Arubans might prefer.

SMACK!  :evil:             RazzyBerry -> :shock:

Okay, it's hard to explain, but the ATM is in a little cabin, and there is a camera, but it focuses on the person using the ATM, I don't think that camera would capture anything that happen across the street.

Damn, it's really hard to expalin in words.

Youre right thats why I think they hid the body that first night and called someone else in to get rid of the body the next day. This possibly iswhere more arrests are coming from.

Is there ANY culture in which sex is that INSIGNIFICANT that you wouldn't walk a woman 500 meters back to her hotel? If there is, I don't want to live there.

inspector:

someone backed up your story for you.

ArubaGirl - what's the general attitude about being on the beach at night - I'm thinking that a lot of folks who go to Negril in Jamaica talk often about walking the beach at night from club to club and being completely safe - even women alone. Note that I would not do that nor suggest that my daughter do that but  it's said a lot - would Natalee have heard "the beach gets dangerous traffic at night or is not safe at night" or would she have heard "no problem, no worries, Aruba is safe and you can even walk around at night"?


One thought I had was that if Natalee drank a bit too much and felt sick, she might easily tell Joran to leave her alone since she wouldn't want a cute and seemingly "worldly" guy see her throw up ... I can easily see my dtr doing that for example - sometimes looking good outweighs thoughts about sensible behavior? (just speculating)

Is there ANY culture in which sex is that INSIGNIFICANT that you wouldn't walk a woman 500 meters back to her hotel? If there is, I don't want to live there

Yes Professor,  there is.  And you don't live there.

I might be wrong, but I remember a quote from joran's mother on cnn yesterday where she said that while at the becah they walked for awhile, and then he left? Does anyone remember that?

100+ hours of interrogation? How many times do they keep asking the same questions? At some point it becomes more than interrogation, its psychological torture.

Thanks Scott, but my provdider doesn`t have fox or any other american channel. Only cnn intern.

How about all cultures.

I can see what you mean.  It's like a small free standing building where the camera is focusing soley on the person/people using the ATM.  It would not capture anything at a distance.  Makes sense to me.  :D

and yet again why do the parents of Natalee holloway believe in a kidnap scenario people who are close to the whole ordeal while we here on the blogs explore our deepest fantasies and the only thing we can come up with is sex , drugs and murder .

They called him a murderer and told him if they could touch him they would kill him and make it look like it was an accident.

Of course there was enough time to dispose of a body. Ask somebody on the island " If you had an hour or two and a vehicle how would you...."

ALSO: If Dad had no real involvement his arrest would suggest to JOran that LE did not have good evidence on him (Joran) as they arrest pater only to pressure a confession.

That's what I heard, but I think she said that Natalee wanted to be alone on the beach?

How about all cultures.

Razzy, Professor isn't a woman so I'm not sure he has that insight ;)

Coco, I'm guessing she would have heard "ARuba is safe, no worries". But nothing specifically about the beaches being safe or not.

Several of my guy friends speculate that perhaps Joran regarded her as a tease, wanting to make out but not to have sex, he got pissed and left her alone on the beach.

I'm NOT saying that I agree or that this happened. I'm just saying what local guys (ages 18-25) are saying.

I bet they aren't torturing PVDS.

The "something bad happened" quote has been grossly misconstrued! The exact conversation acording to AP went something like this:

Suspect1:  We dropped her off at around 2am.
Police:        Well if that is true the cameras don’t lie, and she is nowhere to be found…how do you explain that.
Suspect1:   Well I guess something bad must have happened to her.
AP news:    Sir, did the suspect offer any explanation of Natalee’s where abouts?
Police:        No, he said he believed something bad must have happened.
News:        Teen confesses to police, saying something bad happened.

meaning, the suspect was merely speculating.

You know what I think..........The LE are reading sm also, if we talk about people here the next thing they do is arrest them :roll:

THE BIG WINNER IN THIS IS CASE IS FOXNEWS , THEY KEEP US PRISONERS OF THEIR NEWSREEHLS AND BLOGS, ONE RUMOUR FROM FOX AND WE CHAT HOURS AND HOURS AND HOURS. MEANWILE THEY WIN RATINGS .

Yeah I heard that part too.

I find it ironic we want them interrogated however to get the info, yet as a culture there is public outcry over GITMO.

meaning, the suspect was merely speculating.

Mordred, that scenario is certainly plausible.  I hope we find out.

Thanks ArubaGirl!

LOL - true!  We're totally Fox's b!tches.

would it have captured natalee trying to pump that machine that night for twenty minutes while some guy named lazlo waited behind her?  /1. (after she lost 300 some of her father's money and asked joran to win it back from her.) /2.

(In jest) Did lazlo strangle her then and there?  I hope the cops have that tape.  

1. natalee sighting posted here or imported from another site, never run down.  

2.  purported deepak email

 :roll:

Thanks for explaining, I've read so many different stories, it get's too confusing to remeber which is actually correct  :)

K in TX, what's even sadder is that I WANT to be Fox's bitch, but I can't.  :x

Two questions - has anyone heard from Beth H. today...and has anyone heard how the search is going with the TX group?

Apparantly Joran didn't have a vehicle at the time. And if he called someone on his cell phone, wouldn't the records point to exactly who came to help him (if that's what happened) :roll:

You know, we HAVEN'T seen Beth Holloway today, have we?  Has anyone and I missed it?

But, I'll bet you can be Geraldo's bitch?  He'd love you! ;)

No and No

Maybe Americans are used to better sex, but it would seem to me that the sex would have to be pretty nondescript not to warrant walking a woman 500 meters. But who knows, maybe Joran was a dud.

Rumor has it that Geraldo prefers men....

 :lol:  :lol:

 

Hannie, then why have they not gone for Lorenzo?

Whether "intense interrogation" refers to psychological techniques or utilizing hot and cold rooms and "electrodes and cream" and family members, I  think at this point any eventual post-confession legal maneuvers in Aruba are not really considered a priority by the US.

I also think that at the time of initial involvement,  Washington may have underestimated some of the human factors, specifically the single-mindedness and determination of the family, as well as the level of media scrutiny, but that is just my speculation, I do not have a link. :)

What if Joran leaves natalee alone , walks home and on his way home there is Steve who gives him a ride home?......

Be careful you won't get Christmas cards from fox.

We are human we trive on rumours and speculating and outdoing others in even more exotic theories . Yes i must admit fox has got me by the B*lls , and they manage my life , i am a true victem of the big media.

Because we watch too much television and some of us (no names, of course) are wedded to specific theories, both on this case and in their own lives.  Cynicism is an illness. ;)

iquitos wrote:



Maybe he fled the island when he saw that everybody is been arrested who`s name come up at the blogs and media :)

If you believe the following;

1.  The 3 original suspect stories have changed numerous times.

2.  Beth Holloway being a mother has a strong instinct coupled with basic facts guiding her assumptions and comments that "they know what happened to Natalie"

3.  Her Father and Step Father have strong feelings based on the facts they have been presented (that we dont know about) and their dealings with the Van der Sloots - which both fathers have said they know something and are in some way responsible.  The fathers both have stated "foul play"

If your mind can logically grasp these 3 basic facts you cant see innocence or and "honest mistake" anywhere along the line.  

As parents these 3 people have burning gut feelings about their daughter which are being substantiated with facts we are unaware of.

Hey LE, why don't you guys stop beating Joran for a few minutes and go out and look for Natalee?

A "gut'" feeling does not make it 'true' especially not when your emotionally involved like they are.

The blog I read said that Lorenzo was picked up, questioned, then released...

Guys have no guilt about having sex with a girl then stealing 20 bucks from her purse to catch a cab ride home.

Has your cable company explained why the have not added Fox News to their channel base, especially since Natalee's disappearance?

I have to believe there's overwhelming interest and demand at this point, that people would be willing to pay an extra $3 per month (I'm guessing) to have access to Fox News.  

From a political standpoint, I'd say, overall, the network's news is right of center, but no more to the right than ABC, CBS, NBC or CNN is to the left.

Where should we start looking?  Joran's apt?

Beth Holloway being a mother has a strong instinct coupled with basic facts guiding her assumptions and comments that "they know what happened to Natalie"

Ouuu I have a question, pick me, my hand is up.

Razzy, isn't it common in these types of scenarios for the parent of a missing child to be positive and say those type of things just in case the child is being held against his/her will?  Isn't it supposed to "humanize" the victim to the captor?

Has anyone considered to change  our mind modus  how we think about the case . Every theorie I have seen has the factor that Joran knows what happens to the case so if we would say " why did he lie about dropping her off at the hotel "     because he knows what happend

but has anyone ever considered why he would lie about dropping her off at the holiday in hotel a 02.00 , might it be that he did not like his father to know that he returned that late to house for example.

RazzyBerry,

I think it's about time you started meeting some new people...

WOW I never thought about some other way home. Man I must just be slow or awake 24 hours a day.

one question...did fox just report on husband/wife/4children found dead in columbia???? of course this may be unrelated...stuff like that happens all the time...but i was in other room and thought this was what fox rept.
anyone please??

gut feelings backed by facts we are aware of more certainly do.

I am laughing at you.  NO!

Yep they sure did cept its in Arizona.

I agree , I thinks she comforts herself in accepting assumptions  rather then not having any idea or clue .

Not Columbia but Arizona.

professor:  puleez.  let us not go there.  I seriously doubt Americans are in a position to speak any more authoritatively about this subject than anyone else on earth.  In fact, Americans are very hung up about it compared to others.

Natalie Holloways mother is not being questioned as if her daughter is being held captive and the captor is possibly watching the news.  If she were trying to humanize natalie, she would be pleading straight into the camera saying, please let my daughter go.  Shes not giving up hope, but this is not be treated as a kidnapping/ransom situation.

RazzyBerry wrote:



Agree by FACTS they do, not by wishfull thinking. How heartbreaking this is

Do we need a who has better sex thread?

Natalie Holloways mother is not being questioned as if her daughter is being held captive and the captor is possibly watching the news. If she were trying to humanize natalie, she would be pleading straight into the camera saying, please let my daughter go. Shes not giving up hope, but this is not be treated as a kidnapping/ransom situation

I agree she hasn't pleaded to the camera so to speak, but she HAS alluded to Natalee being held against her will in several of the interviews she granted last week. This is why I asked...

Actually, I think it's been searched already. Natalee left her suitcases in her hotel room. Get some of her clothes and give the scent to some bloodhounds. They can find people from miles away. Cadaver dogs are very good at finding dead bodies as well. Have you ever smelled a dead body? It's kinda hard to miss, even for a human. Dogs can find them from miles away. The Island really isn't that big.

On second thought , that's too much work - just keep beating Joran... :lol:

I would like to think that everyone that has been reading on this site knows exactly the reason why we covered this story. It was said in the very beginning and referenced the other day when CNN covered us on "Inside the Blogs".

It actually appalls me that blogs would say anything to another blog about their content. Critique a point of view, debate me ... yeah Tom & I live for that. Tell me what should be on my blog, shame on you. Last time I checked it was Tom & Red, Editors and Chief.

Blogs have bitched and moaned about the MSM censoring stories. Ohh so all of a sudden blogs are going to tell others what their content should be? Sounds like the pot calling the kettle.

It appalls me that anyone one deem a story of a missing person not news worthy. If others wish to take up the cause on their own sites on other missing people out there than more power to you and God bless you. The fact that I have a personal connection to this for having been in Aruba and done more things there that were far more irresponsible than what Natalee may have done ...

But for the grace of God go I...

I guess if we all felt the way many of these negative articles espouse, there would be no one talking of any missing people.

Here is a news fact to the blog community ... If this was not a news story and not blog worthy maybe some one can explain why it was FEATURED on a CNN show that is about Blogs? Just some info for all, Inside the Blogs does not normally do what they did. They review many blogs and recite, they do not normally interview blogs, get statements from them and feature one blog on a news event.

They did so because much of what has been done on this terrible story has been ground breaking. A blog with such a vast group of great people discussing a news event, having people on the ground in Aruba as great contacts ... breaking news even before the news wires and yes if I can say it on some occasions ... Fox News.

Congrats to all ... for those that just don't get it, oh well.

The main point, no one but no one has the right to tell others who blog what is or is not news worthy. I tend to think in the end this story will educate teens every where what to do in the future.

Red

That would be definitly me I live in Argentina by average the most beautifull foto models come from argentina !!!

I'm not sure if it's been posted but Fox just had an Aruban judge on and he said that Mr. VDS took the test to become a judge and failed and that they were trying to find him some "other" work to do. So he's not a judge.

Sorry for the rant but this has been upsetting on me for some time.

If investigators were giving her information that leaned towards Natalie being held captive her interviews would be done totally different.  Youre seeing a mother not willing to accept the death of her daughter until she has a body, which is totally normal and in most cases  survival mode.

thanx absolut..u never sleep on the job!!!
i confess i was power napping w/news on
later

 
telling lies to daddy  an't like lieing to the cops when some one is misssing  lieing to cops gets your butt put in jail

Hi Red Tom,

When is www.scaredmonkeys.com going to appear on the nasdaq , can I buy call options in advance ?

I can understand why. I saw one recently that I shared with Absolut that burned my britches and apparently, several gazillion others who posted to that blog's comments.

Has anyone has any ideas why the house of Joran was searched and why their family cars where taken in for further investigation . Why would they want to search the cars ?

Fox breaking news!

Geraldo is reporting the arrest of a 6th suspect in the dissappearance of Natalle Holloway.  His name is ROB Van Der ScaredMonkey.  He has been arrested on suspicion of being suspicious because of his bloodshot eyes from sitting at his PC too long.  Rumor is that he knows more about the case than he's willing to tell.  Rob claims his innocence and says he has an alibi and an emoticon to prove it. :lol:  :lol:

Vinda de Sousa has been on Fox 2 times today...Has anybody seen the family?    

Vinda de Sousa is the lawyer hired to navigate the legal system and explain processes to the family...

Could  something be happening??

If investigators were giving her information that leaned towards Natalie being held captive her interviews would be done totally different. Youre seeing a mother not willing to accept the death of her daughter until she has a body, which is totally normal and in most cases survival mode.

Noted.  Thanks for clearing that up for me.

HAHAHAHAHA THAT IS GOOD ONE , and he had lots of inside information aswell

No problem red, I had similar thoughts when people were flaming about dan's "news". He shouldn't be censored, nor should he be held to the standards of the MSM. I thought the self expression was kinda the point.

but Klaasend - does this Rob know Lorenzo?

and does he have a blue plaid shirt?

In that case, let's talk about OJ Simpson and Michael Jackson for a while...

ha..he knows Lorenzo as well as we do!  Not sure about the plaid shirt though, lol.

GOOD POINTS and congrats on your suceess.

Arubagirl - Do you have or can borrow a digital camera for your future field trips?

klaasend wrote:


You got me for a moment there...........LMAO :lol:  :lol:

Okay, I'll admit it. You caught me dead to rights. I was being facetious. :oops: Mea culpa.

It's more or less standard in high profile cases, like this kidnapping/murder. They don't want to miss anything.

me 2 :lol:

I agree with you!!!  All this talk about her being white, well off, a women or whatever is wrong.  Over the last couple of nights with the 3 young boys missing and then being found in the trunk of a car was VERY big on the news in PA.  They weren't white, female or from a well off family!!

I'm glad you spoke up  :)

No but he has this theory about SBF security guards :)

I read more than I post, but have begun to wonder if we need two threads for this discussion:
1.  The "RazzyBerry"  thread whose contingent holds that Joran is guilty and it's just a matter of getting the truth out;
2.  The "I'm not ready to pass judgement yet" thread whose followers want new developments and speculation, but are open to more than just one possibility.

Last night RazzyBerry said she wasn't going to sleep until this case was solved.  Many pages of her postings later, I believe she meant that literally!

I'm sure we can learn from all posters...or at least most of us can.  Regardless of why Joran lied, changed his lies, etc. I stand by "innocent until proven guilty."   A 17 year old boy/man does not have to be a sociopath to have gotten himself into deep **** and not know how to handle it.

Dank je Gerben goed je weer te zien !!!!!!!

Thx for the explanation Gerben , nice seeing you again

Their first lie would probably have held up (the first one where they said "we dropped her off at the Holiday Inn around 2 a.m.), EXCEPT that little did they know that a large group of the MB kids were out by the pool until 5 a.m.  When the three guys were confronted because Holiday Inn cameras didn't show them dropping Natalee off, they then said "well yeah we dropped her off over by the pool".  Busted.  The MB kids were there so the three guys were exposed in their lie.

I think he is to be the spokes person for the family.....if .....as it looks like it could be heading in a very diffcult situation.

http://spaces.msn.com/members/AbleAdvocateDAN/PersonalSpace.aspx?_c


Have you GUYS read this article about Joran-Oh My God!

Probably now Fox has time to fill up with backfill interviews, because the judge missed his connecting flight.

Respect for RazzyBerry diehard , monkey investigator.

I just heard there were 2 men murdered in St.Thomas....no suspects..no apparent motive...sad... said FBI was working the case..maybe that is why they scaled bck on Natalee's case....

absolut- i have to go to work- one last question!! :roll:
do you think this case will be solved before this f'n monkey
reaches 1,000 posts??

I think this is one we can confidently put into the nearly-empty "facts" box.

Chef_Hoovisan wrote:




No pleaseeeee don`t......I already getting a headache each day now, since i`m not used to blogs... :lol:

Bendex, one speculation that the police might act on with a carsearch, might be that Joran didn't have time to sufficiently take care of his problem that night before having to get to school.  So Joran headed off for school and Dad got one of the family cars to take care of his problem.

Red, that stateside "editorial" was just someone trying to get his name into the story.  Ghost him!  Please, that editorial was just sad.

Nope, unless her body is found while you are at work and not posting. If you post at your current pace you will be at 1000 before the hearing tomorrow am.

News out of Aruba since about 5:00pm EST has come to a screeching halt.

The other networks at least pretend to be neutral - FOX does not hide it's political leaning.

I dont think that this guy of the article has any idea what he is talking about , certainly not aware of dutch customs and laws.

Okay. I've been out of the ether for several hours. What's the word? I did hear the arraignment was postponed. True?? I'll bet PVDS is getting a little tremorous about now without his morning Scotch and soda. They need to pour on the Pentathol and put the squeeze on him while he's jonesing for those after dinner cocktails. Any truth to PVDS being held in the same cell as sonny boy?

Sheesh, people, just trying to give a few links to fill the void. No, we won't all agree with all of what they (the links) say, but there are some opinions and angles out there other than our own. Is it possible to read an opposing editorial point-of-view, or a different take, and just digest it? I think so. And in the long-run, it helps to see the big picture. In the not too distant future, the way this case was handled, journalistically and legally, will fill entire course-books in grad schools. Informing and educating ourselves about those perspectives, as they unfold before us, is not a bad thing. Thanks for all of your comments and suggestions, here and in PM's.

-MC

Well said Deb! I am neither white, nor female, nor American; but this story has captivated me from the very beginning!! Perhaps its the 'trip to paradise ends up in hell' angle, maybe its those pictures of Natalle staring back at you from the screen - putting such a human face to the story; It could be the 'white girl goes missing, black boys immediately arrested with no evidence- while real culprit are given time to cover up' - Feel free to give me your analysis

What, no clinking beer mug icon?  Well, then, please accept some polite...

::applause::

 :D Nice post!

Yell- your've probably right- but he does make a few good points

It's sad, but for Natalee's parents, the belief in a kidnap scenario is the only hope they can cling to, to maintain the belief that she's still alive.

Just realize, it's a far more agonizing acknowledgement for Natalee's mother to accept the likelihood that her daughter is gone forever, than it is for Joran's mom to accept that her son was likely responsible for Natalee's death.

Joran admits to being alone with her on the beach.  Unless his intentions were to murder her, any other reasonable intent is presumably of a sexual nature.

The presumption of drugs is based on the alleged role of Steve Croes.  It can be neither confirmed nor denied.  However, he continues to be detained, with just cause.  

For all we know, they have a text message from Deepak to Steve saying something like '2x42nite'.

Natalee has been missing for 26 days on a small island.  The reality speaks for itself.

wow monkey c ....
another very objective view on that site :roll: , Let`s get Valentijn now...
jeezzzz

YUK.  looks like he is pulling monkey stuff off this site.  of course he is pulling only what we excrete so his rap is real juicy, if not completly false.

A good example of how facts and rumours can be twisted to fit an agenda. The funniest thing was the guy saying that there are pictures of Joran on boats :lol: Uh, he lives on a Carribean island.....

You know we SHOULD have Scaredmonkey t-shirts...I'd certainly buy one and wear it proudly....."SCAREDMONKEYS...BRINGING NATALEE HOME ONE POST AT A TIME"

I know Hannie.  I neever went to site but heard enough about it..and distubing stuff about val's little girlfriend...the family needs help IMHO

Uhhhhhhh, Razzy....what was your "good" comment back there about the boys being released?

I sure hope you don't wish their life is hell if they're innocent?  I can't take their mother off my mind, how she said she didn't know anyone on the island and only worked...and I'm told their 14 year old sister is devastated.  If they were pawns of Joran's...makes me sick how such young lives can be hurt so much.

Wow, this was really something to read.

Plus, we have not seen teachers and Sunday School teachers lined up to speak to Joran's good citizenship and morale character.  There may be character witnesses for Joran, but it just hasn't much been apparent so far on the American news.

Thanks Scott for enlighting me with your vision , point taken !

MONKEY JUNKIE???? :lol:  :lol:

It seems like Americans sometimes feel frustrated with their own justice system, I am thinking of Michael Jackson and OJ but I think you can see some of the same thinking from some comments here about Joran.

The frustration seems to be with the specific crime aspect, as when you have a defendant about whom many of the public have a low opinion, or believe he has committed crimes in the past, perhaps for which he was never prosecuted.

However, the job of the jury is to decide whether the state has proved that he has committed this particular crime on that particular day against that particular victim!

They are not charged with deciding if he is a good person who has never done anything wrong, or has an admirable lifestyle, or if he shares the values of those who have a low opinion of him.

Just whether he did X on Y day to Z...

<snip>
And in the long-run, it helps to see the big picture. In the not too distant future, the way this case was handled, journalistically and legally, will fill entire course-books in grad schools. Informing and educating ourselves about those perspectives, as they unfold before us, is not a bad thing. Thanks for all of your comments and suggestions, here and in PM's.[/i]

I think, Martin, that perhaps if all the links weren't so overwhelmingly on the other side, you might not have gotten the comments you did. :) You could have put the caveat in the post with that paragraph above and maybe it would have been better rec'd.  Just my 2 1/2 cents...

They would want to search the cars to see if it was consistent with the statements the suspects made to authorities.  If there were any forensics that pointed to Natalee being in the house or cars,  their stories have an even bigger hole blown in it.

I will probably say this another way when this is all over, but the Twitty, Holloway family needs to document what they did (all avenues) to make this search come together. Every family regardless of race, religion, loacation, or financial status could use this as a model. I think, the same tactics and contacts in America would have brought this case to closure much faster and that is not a hit on the LE in Aruba.

There are small details of parts of the rally cry that may never be known but they are the pieces other cases miss. No case in America or otherwise gets the FBI in less than 24 hours with NO evidence and that is what we are led to believe happened here.

okay guys ,

Another two fantastic hours wasted in which i could have done my laundry , clean my house , go to supermarket or walked my dog .


I leave it to the NIGHTSHIFT


Bye and a good weekend.

The people in other places aren't media whores like Americans

Is this guy the editor of Diariaruba? He seems tabloid like. Is he credible. He goes for all of the sensationalist stuff.

Geraldo was just on Fox a little while ago speaking to the minister of information.... he wanted to clear up the fact that PVDS was not a judge but had sent his letter to the Netherlands for approval to start training.. it had been denied.

He also stated( this minister of info) that he personally believed PVDS was being held to apply emotional pressure to the son. it was interesting.

lois

Minister of information? What in the hell?

Still here sigh.

How will this guy react when i comment to his message in Arab language ?

I believe they meant to say minister of misinformation  :D

Theyve already lied, pawn or no pawn they are part of a cover up.  So They are not innocent by that behavior alone.

Byeee bendex, see you later and have a good weekend yourself and watch the 'plants' :wink:  :lol:

And who is this person, may I ask?

Amazing.  One good thought for work today.
  And still prayers for Natalee.

Actually I remember seeing more "ordinary folks" from Aruba being interviewed in the early days.

My speculation is that events, both law-enforcement and media related, have not increased enthusiasm among the local population about being interviewed by the US news media.

It is a small island, and especially for folks living in large cities, it is easy to lose sight of just what kind of impact this kind of media intensity can have on a community, and yes, I think that there are also some cultural differences, maybe people in Aruba are more inclined to think it is good if their kids can continue normal lives, in privacy, without having their names linked to any Geraldo reports.

And in fairness, it looks like a lot of Alabama parents have decided to adopt that aspect of Aruba culture, too  :)

Geraldo said Minister of Justice, the screen said Minister of Justice - it was a guy I've never seen before and they recently recapped the story with the same line - Minister of Justice said PVDS held to pressure son - and then they discussed this as an odd admission.

Absolut- This has been bothering me too although no one has followed it up!!
A few days after Natalle disappeared.
U.S. Rep. Spencer Bachus, R-Vestavia Hills, said Saturday june 04 that
" there were circumstances surrounding Holloway's disappearance that warranted the FBI being heavily involved."
He declined to give details.

????????????????????//

YUK.  looks like he is pulling monkey stuff off this site.  of course he is pulling only what we excrete so his rap is real juicy, if not completly false.[/quote]

We looked at those sites and read the very same emails..so he is not lying...

Arubagirl I did not post his name because i could not remember the name, I believe it was a Crous (sp?) he had a funny beard/hairdo.

He said that PVDS had spoken to him about seeking some other type of employment as well, since he had been denied.

Was it a guy with a beard that looks a lot like the guy on this site: http://www.votarudy.aw

Great point, people dont realize we are only getting about 10% of the evidence and you cant even call it that because its basically arrest information.

Maybe b/c the FBI already 'had' info about the supposed guy that was in the same plain with natalee and dissapears plus the fact of natalee`s missing at the same place, who knows.....

? for you- Is there anyway that the father and son will be able to talk to each other if they are jail/prison

Dittos to you RB. I should indeed have given the caveat. Point well taken.
-MC

Geraldo spoke to Rudy Croes

I think there is something to that theory too......Joren may be a spoiled brat.....but a killer??? .....and he is still just 17.....how has he held up all these days if he is guilty of harming her?  I don't think I could.

How severe is her asthma??  So what about this...they went to the beach together.....things got hot and heavy.....they had sexxx. ..Natalee was filled with guilt....needed time to try to get herself together...told him to leave her alone.....he did....walked home cause he didn't want to call his father (remember he had snuck outta the house)..she started walking towards the hotel....seaside...had been drinking (confirmed), crying?  probably.........walked into the sea. (hyserical??)....had an asthma attack...a bad one....fell down and/or passed out passed out.....drowned and ..the tide carried her out??  Joren told Paulus sometime later on..after the confrontation with the Twitty's.....Paulus would certainly tell his son NOT to say a word....as an member of the judicial system and as a father......This is my hubbys theory....but it sounds plausible.

So the questions are how bad was her asthma?
What was the tide during this period?

Just throwing anothr theory out among the many we have.

And there we have Reason Number 1 for keeping your kid's face out of the camera, and his name out of Fox's mouth, no matter what insights he might have or how eloquently he might be able to hold forth on what terrific people any of the "main characters" are.

Yes. and coco, you may be correct I have three little ones fighting through the house.

Oh my GOD. If Rudy Croes has been on television saying this, I'm going to demand that the elections be held next week.

AAAAAAAAAAAARGH

ahem, sorry.

The people posting comments over a Dan Riehl's site are all over this angle.  trying to figure out who in Mountain Brook  is related to senators and government officials.

Yeah, it's him....he looks amish to me, LOL

THAT! was his name!

Rudy said "he thinks", he doesn't know it for a fact because only the prosecuter and the investigation team know everything for certain.

You can't see me, but I'm so mad I could spit nails.

WHO DECIDED THAT THIS IDIOT COULD BE MINISTER OF JUSTICE?!!?!?!

He doesn't even have freaking LAW DEGREE.

Can you tell that I don't like this government?

GERBEN, can you help me?  We have a contradiciton.  v/d sloot was never a full time judge but he was he was a substitute judge.  he is an atorney.  he is a long time justice employee.  i have posted repeatedly his 2003 substitute judge appointment.  He works or worked until very very recently in the court in aruba.  the Dutch press is saying that they are sending a judge in from curacao to hear this case  because they want to avoid any appearance of conflict of interest "since v/d sloot works in the court in Aruba".  I want to know if his failure to pass the test for jugde disqualified him as a substitute judge or if he can remain as substitute judge until his appointment expires.    

APS: RIJKSMINISTERRAAD: Benoemingen Gemeenschappelijk Hof van......
20.12.2002 / 17:09 / Rubriek: Binnenland / Organisatie: Rvd/dg
Origineel persbericht.

Ministerie van Binnenlandse Zaken en Koninkrijksrelaties

Persbericht Rijksministerraad

20 december 2002

BENOEMINGEN GEMEENSCHAPPELIJK HOF VAN JUSTITIE VAN DE NEDERLANDSE ANTILLEN EN ARUBA

De Rijksministerraad heeft op voorstel van minister Remkes van Binnenlandse Zaken en Koninkrijksrelaties ingestemd met een tweetal benoemingen.

De heer mr. G.E.M. Polkamp (52) wordt voorgedragen voor benoeming tot lid van het Gemeenschappelijk Hof van Justitie van de Nederlandse Antillen en Aruba. Momenteel is de heer Polkamp plaatsvervangend lid van het Hof. De benoeming gaat in op 1 januari 2003.

De heer mr. P.A.P.J. van der Sloot (50) wordt voorgedragen voor benoeming tot plaatsvervangend lid van het Gemeenschappelijk Hof van Justitie van de Nederlandse Antillen en Aruba. De heer van der Sloot is nu werkzaam als kabinetschef bij de procureur-generaal van Aruba. De benoeming gaat in op 1 januari 2003 voor een periode van drie jaar.

RVD, 20.12.2002
ANP Pers Support, de redactie van het ANP is niet verantwoordelijk voor de inhoud.

But Arubagirl...say's right on his website that he's the 2002 man of the year!! :roll:

I think an innocent person would lie....especially a young person.....scared to death....heck they all three knew they were seen with her...and she comes up missing....they all wanted an out...the brothers were covering their own behinds as well as Joren's IMO  Actually I believe we only know that they have changed their story once.....from dropping Natalee off at the HI...to dropping J and Natalee off at the beach

JMO

Can you tell that I don't like this government?

Don't hold back, arubagirl,  Let it all out :)

And Martin, thanks for taking my comment in the manner I intended it :)

I agree absolut. Throw in the private jet of a company that just "happens to do a lot of business" in Central and South America and the Carribean.
Then the DEA agent that is "free enough" for a few days to help out, and happens to be in the area on another assignment,..... and you begin to wonder.
I'm sure this will make a good book and movie deal regardless of the outcome.

Arubagirl, he was elected in election so don't begin, in september there's elections again. If aruba doesn't want him, they shouldn't elect him.

Oh jairodirksen, okay. He did say "he thinks".

Okay

Sorry, Rudy, I'm still not going to vote for you, but at least I don't think your bodyguards should refrain you from speaking.

ArubaGirl - fill us in?

Interesting tidbit on Rudy Croes from the Aruba Tradewind Times in June 2004 - written by Eddie Ramos:

Life of the Minister of Justice threatened
 
  MINISTER OF JUSTICE UNDER INCREASED SECURITY
 
 The Intelligence Service of Venezuela (DAS) has notified Aruban  
authorities that a group of Colombians have flown via Venezuela  
to Aruba with the mission of assassinating the Minister of Justice  
Rudy Croes. Rudy Croes has received numerous threats
ever since he fulfilled the function of Minister Justice in 2001 with  
his very aggressive fight against drug trafficking and illegals.
 
It appears that Aruba has become very difficult to serve as a hub
for drug trafficking and the amount of illegals caught have dropped
dramatically. Numerous projects have helped secured Aruba from drug
trafficking and illegals including two on land radars, daily  
helicopter patrol and coast surveillance.
 
Rudy Croes who already has security guards is now under increased  
security. The men protecting his life are well trained in case
of any event. The family of Rudy Croes is also protected.

It's true, Coco.

SunnyinTX wrote:



I totally agree with you sunny...

]

Absolut- This has been bothering me too although no one has followed it up!!
A few days after Natalle disappeared.
U.S. Rep. Spencer Bachus, R-Vestavia Hills, said Saturday june 04 that
" there were circumstances surrounding Holloway's disappearance that warranted the FBI being heavily involved."
He declined to give details.

????????????????????//[/quote]

The senator does not live in Mountain Brook, but close..There are a lot of people that live in MB that have connections...Remember,,,there are CEOs, Doctors, Lawyers,etc,,,living there and would have connections..Also,,I am sure that if I called him, he would do what he could to help........IMO,,,,  OOPS,,,not senator,,rep...

The face of innocence....or is it?

1. "We dropped her off at the Holiday Inn she was drunk and didnt want any help, then we saw 2 guards walk up to her and we drove away"

oops
2. "We dropped Natalie off with Joran at the Mariott" Did we say Holiday inn before? sorry we meant Mariott.

3. Deepak and Satish dropped me off at home and then were supposed to drop Natalee at the HI. (courtesy of aruba girl)

oops
4. Joran - " I called Deepak to pickme up at the Mariott at 3am"
Deepak - Why are you lying joran?
Joran - OK OK I called Satish to come get me..did I say Deepak?

5. Joran was supposed to text message us when he wanted us to come pick him up..we never got the text message.

6. ok ok ok I was with her on the beach alone in the dark at 3 am but I didnt touch her.!!!

This is not what innocent people do when questioned regarding their whereabouts.

The boys might not have even known Joran hurt her or is responsible for her being missing.  For some reason I doubt he would tell them. Sure they lied, but IF they didn't know anything about the crime...and really only dropped them off...I wish them healing and good lives.

MCWANE owner has kid at MB, Jug is in the steel business, Sen.  Sessions intervened, Condi, an Alabamian, intervened. It happened.  Now if there were other special circumstances they could have included the involvement of a son of a local judge, for example, raising questions as to whether there could be an objective investigation going on down there or if the local boys had put in the fix.

KK and all -  the speed of involvement by US authorities is pretty unusual. Did say the Eliz. Smart case get the same fast fed involvement? (I can't remember but I'm thinking similar level of connections,etc)

My only follow up to what I posted before, til this is resolved is this:

I don't not believe that this family is any different than RB and myself, or many people from working class 2 income households. (Read not special, not connected.)

I believe that the decisions that were made from the moment the chaperone called and reported her missing to her family is what every family in America needs so that if their kids come up missing there is a plan that follows the patterns of exposure that this one did. Bad news travels fast. The news of Natalee travelled at the speed of light. Only a handful can tell us what was done to create that result.

For the gov't angle. Doesn't fit, the gov't is slow to react to everything, the left the guy on the tractor in the reflecting pool for 4 days while 5 million commuters were affected daily for 2 rush hours a day.

Arubagirl, I have one question. Can you explain to me where Joran lives precisly?

That is why my attention has been drawn to this particular case.

Of course, by now, I am caught up in all the speculations and human interest, but I still feel that the US govt involvement aspect is the most intriguing.

If they are the 2 possibly being released soon then they are cleared and will probably be fine.

 

razzy:  where did you get your hands on the case transcripts?

Razzy - It does sound like Joran and the others have changed their stories but the versions you keep reposting are all hearsay so far.
I know that this doesn't bother you but I do think you should note that these are just second hand at best accounts rather than presenting them as evidence on which to convict - or ruin lives if not convicted.

If you want to be blind to what has been reported thats your choice, some of this information was substatiated by others and aruba girl herself.  If you want to blame me for reporting the facts in  a way that the truth stares you in the face fine.

It should be clear that there is something behind the scenes connected with this case! Isn't that what Spencer Bachus said from the outset?

WHY all this DENIAL that there is CORRUPTION, COVERUP, and CONSPIRACY involved on a Third World island which sits right in the fairway of the drug smuggling lanes and is regarded by the US State Department as a staging ground coming and going for human/sex trafficking? A SHORT BOAT RIDE from Venezuela and Colombia? It's like we don't want to even THINK about the darker scenarios, like plain, flat out clinical DENIAL!

I guess it speaks a lot about how good we have it here in America, that we don't want to think that people could be hauled off beaches in the dead of night by blackshirted snatch squads. Those things are way beyond our experience (thankfully!), but in other countries they find such things credible.

It would be very helpful if someone who KNOW what life is like on the ground in Venezuela or Colombia could post on here and tell us what it's like there. All I know is what I read... but all I read about are kidnappings and terror nonstop.

Jairo, I don't know exactly where Joran's house is, but if you come from the the 'rotonde' Tanki Flip, you go in the direction of Giselle Department store, take a right the next street after the Sportcomplex that they're building, keep on driving for about a few minutes, and there you'll find Montanja. My friends and i didn't exactly look for his house number, it was too dark.

While, theoretically, that should always remain true.  The recent acquittal of Michael Jackson was a gross travesty of justice.

Ray Hultman (Juror #1) said in an interview after the verdict was read, "To be honest with you, I think that he probably has molested children.”

I believe this raises a serious ethical question for jurors.

If a perceived threat to children can be removed from society through the empowerment of a jury, isn't it morally reprehensible to exonerate an individual, thus allowing him to remain a persistent threat to the community, regardless of whether the specific charges for which he is being tried can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt?

Sb, it's precisely this post that gives me a lot of trouble defending Americans to my fellow countrymen.

Corruption, coverup and conspiracy? Yup, you're a native, right?

RazzyBerry, one lie can lead to another, and another and another, but that still doesn't make him a murderer.  He is the last KNOWN person to have seen her and who knows what he is hiding, but I can see how once you've gotten yourself implicated, you might be scared enough to try and cover yourself.  Exactly why my parents always told me it was better to fess up and take what what was coming than try to hide it...it might be bad, but it could get worse.
"Oh what a tangled web we weave, When first we practice to deceive"

Newest AP article. Not really anything new.

http://www.challengernky.com/articles/2005/06/24/ap/headlines/d8aus1100.txt

Thx arubagirl, well than there's no way he could have walked home from the Marriott to his house, just too far.

EVERYTHING so far is hearsay except that Natallee is missing.

I also think it's unlikely, jairo.

Arubagirl...what is your reaction to the Minister of Justice???  (I think that's his title) saying he thought PVDS was being held to put pressure on Joren?

Also what's on local TV re: TXAguusearch?  Thank you for all you do for and bring to this board.

Thats usually the case when you break Mr Bakers window , but hardly the same scenario is used when someone commits murders.  Innocent people have no need the change their story multiple times.

I really think someone that is truely innocent would tell the truth up front, or at least when the gravity of the situation became apparent.  A guilty person would continue with the lying.  I can't think of a case when someone that was truely innocent, resorted to these kinds of behaviors.

I don't think he should be opening his mouth in the first place, SunnyinTX. Especially if he has inside information, which I hope not, if he is willing to go on national media and talk about the case.

Forgot to add: there is nothing being said about the search.

I'm going to have to do some stuff around the house. Be back with in hour, I think.

Maybe O.J. was on aruba too....... pfff

Bye my dear new monkeyfriends, I go to enjoy my weekend a little
Hope y`all have a fine weekend too.

 :wink:

I gotta agree with Arubagirl.  I've read the reports on drug trafficing through this area...America is certainly not immune from drug related activities...murder, botched murder cases, etc.

I've also read what a lovely island this is...the people are great...I tend to like them more as time goes by...

UNTIL we have information that drugs is at the root of the crime I'll pass on that kind of discussion. Why go there?

Right now IMO we've got a missing/murdered young woman, a lying creep who was with her last.

When all this is over,,,it will be interesting to compare the jury system vs the judge....Personally,,I think if a judge heard MJ instead of  a jury,,,plus OJ,,,there would have been a conviction...Not have the media decide...

Arubagirl: pls help with this:  we've heard that PVDS is an alternate judge(stand-in for those on vacation) and a student judge (who would esentially have no power). One is a position of prominence and influence, the other is zip. What gives??

Great Point!

Yes my point exactly, that would be a dumb thing to do as a minister to give comments on this specific case. I think when this case will go trail a judge will slap his wrist for doing that.

I feel that way too many of you are relaying unsubstaniated RUMORS and INNUENDO....All that has OFFICIAL been released is that Joran and the Kalpoe have changed the PLACE as to where they LEFT Natalee...RazzyBerry..you need to think twice about constantly re-posting these INNUENDOS....Does it NOT Bother you that Maybe the Kalpoe brothers Mother might be watching you constantly post these accounts which have NO Basis in FACT ? Judge not lest yee be Judged...FACTS...FACTS...I see NO Fact in what you constantly POST.....

GuyWdog

Razzy - I became interested in this case because I was outraged at the arrest of the two security guards and fascinated that BTH would speak on their behalf. I began reading assuming that this was another little Robert Chambers creep ... the more I watched and read, the more questions I found and the less *fact*.

I have no idea what happened - maybe PVDS and JVDS run the biggest white slave trade in the Carib, maybe JVDS is just a murderer, maybe NH ran away, maybe JVDS are not the guilty parties and someone else is ... I don't know.

I do know that the authorities are working the case and probably know more than us. I know that when the US media circus jumps on a case, there's a ton of pressure.

My personal prejudices:
- I can easily imagine the Aruban government fearful of losing tourist dollars and acting more in line with the pressure than with "normal" judicial approaches - but I do not *know* that.  
- I also know that kids do some stupid things - and it bothers me that Joran is demonized for his web page but Natalee is a saint with zero imperfections.  
- I believe that many cases tried in the media are skewed to the most sellable story - date rape drugs and sex on the beach sells - and this worries me because I care about authentic justice that convicts the guilty and protects the innocent.

Why did they send that creepy freak Geraldo back down there?  I thought he was banned from the island after his last fiasco there?

Watching Fox 24/7 is bad enough...but, Geraldo on top of it!  Whoa...

 i thought it was  5 km or about 3 miles   arubagril said that i think
3 miles is a easy run for someonein good shape

well said

Closing down Court TV and firing Nancy Grace from presenting on TV in any form would resolve the media problem.

search has been called off for the day, resume tomorrow.
also per fox news;
Why did police wait 16 days after she went missing before searching the home of the Dutch youth who was flirting with her? Why did Aruban officials ask the FBI (search) to send divers, who came to the island but never searched its waters?

Criminal experts say these apparent mishaps could make it harder for Aruban investigators to crack the case and may ultimately prevent the Holloway family from ever knowing what happened

You're both more than likely correct, but walking from the Marriot to Jorans home is not impossible for someone that doesn't want to get others involved.

Again, possible but improbable.  We shouldn't assume one way or another until we have some evidence.  Remember there are no witnesses that put them (3 boys) on the beach at the Marriot but themselves, and we know how reliable they are when it comes to the truth.

mehill10, it's definitly not 3 miles, from the Marriott to Frans Figaroa? No way, too far.

If you lie in the beginning, the stage is set. One lie doesn't hold up and you have to come up with another.  And you find yourself getting in deeper, and deeper, and deeper....

(the idea of Mr. Baker's window---lol...this did make me smile)

Because Geraldo can't stand that Greta "owns the story" as Fox puts it. :roll:

So, he couldn't walk Natalee back to her hotel 500 meters away, but he could walk 3 miles home.

sb, i lived in venezuela for three years. left in 94, so my info is dated.  i was there for the chavez coup attempt.  Venezuela has a high crime rate but it does not compare with the terror and organized criminality in colombia where human life has little value and kidnapping and hit squads are a major industry.  Colombia is major snakepit compared to venezeula and it seeps across the mutual borders.  the colombians come in and kidnap people (ranchers, rich guys, foreigners) and take them back to colombia.  i was involved in a case where colombians came in to a tourist fishing camp in southern venezuela and took two americans and the pilot who came to pick them up and flew off into the wild blue yonder.  they made their ransom demands on cb radio.  they allowed long periods to pass between contacts.  the guys families finally mortgaged everything and paid like $300,000.  the intermediary went ito the jungle on the venezuelan border with the cash and came back the same day with the abductees  Happens every day.  lotta colombians on aruba.  low class  ones working the hotel jobs, upper class ones laundering money and gambling.  they go over on lear jets for the weekend. highrollers.   they move dope through aruban ports.  Aruba is very vulnerable being located where it is.

I guess it is soapbox day or something.

I also have something to say about CNC's. I am willing to bet that the majority of the people behaving badly at any CNC function are tourist, "letting their hair down". Now I can appreciate and understand where jug's comments about it came from last night. But his college age kid made it a point to get to CNC's and then his step daughter went too. It has nothing to CNC's or Aruba. Possibly the tourist should take more responsibilty of their actions so as not to take on the look of a girls gone wild video.

The party atmosphere of the island did not cause the disappearance but possibly letting ones guard down did, I am not blaming the victim, it happens in America at Mardi Gras, sporting events and private social gatherings every day.

If they are innocent it shouldnt bother her. Ive said from the beginning the 2 brothers may have little part in this but they still lied for some reason.  If thats all they did was make one little lie then they could be freed tomorrow, but Im only repeating what greta has blasted across the entire world. So nothing Im saying is anything new.

What was his last fiaasco there?

It should be clear that there is something behind the scenes connected with this case! Isn't that what Spencer Bachus said from the outset?

This is my speculation for a plausible scenario where the FBI would get involved so quickly.  Both Caligirl and I were discussing this a couple of nights ago, because I have some experience and knowledge in this area, I tried to help out with some of her questions.

There's rumors of insurance on the Holloway front:  all Fortune 500/1000 companies carry some sort of travel liability insurance, plus travel tours always carry the same sort of rider for emergencies.  And yes, for overseas travel, kidnapping is one of the liabilities covered in those policies.  It is possible that rider, either owned by the Holloway's  employer (she was going to college so she would be covered by her parent's policy) or perhaps the tour company,came into effect when the chaperones reported Natalee missing OR there was a kidnapping/ransom call to the family or someone else to report Natalee had been kidnapped and they wanted money. (Remember, the posters distributed in Aruba said "kidnapped" at one point) When either of these situations occur, the FBI is notified per risk insurance carrier 's crisis plan, and usually is notified immediately. From there, the adjusters work with the family, the employer (or tour company), and with the authorities in this country for whatever plan needs to be executed.  

Think about who could have made a kidnapping call to her family or someone else to cover up whatever had happened to her.  This might explain how all that sequence of events to get Beth Holloway there so fast took place.

 suggest greta has the weekend off and is back in dc with her husband.

Just now on Fox News, "Aruba's Top Justice Minister said Natalee could still be alive but it is looking more unlikely..."   :?:

Ask any investigator in the world what it means when a suspect continually changes their story.  Im not the only person here that disagrees with you.

Geraldo could be mixing business with vacation and has his Yacht parked at the Yacht club...

Razzy:  greta caveats, you don't.  greta substantiates and cites sources, you don't.  greta is actually on the island talking to people, you aren't.   i know greta and you are no greta (to parapharase).

William of Orange had a PUG DOG!  :D

i never said i was greta, and im not on tv so who cares what i say.

were natalees two male half cousins there that night as well?

If this case is never solved I think Natalee's family will exact some justice for her disappearance.  They are obviously well connected and have the ability to exert some influence.  They seem determined to never give up.  They are ready to exhaust every resource they have access to get their daughter back.  That alone makes Natalee seem very special, and may fuel some of the media attention.  Who exactly is this girl that people are moving heaven and earth to find.  We know surprising little about her.

Well, Razz, we'll agree to disagree, OK?  I'll hand you this:  you do marshall your facts well and you are certainly consistent, not consistently right IMHO, but consistent nonetheless.

Have no idea that would have to come from an MB source.

You find one investigator that says an innocent party will continue to change their story and I wont say another word.

Perhaps we are reading too much into the FBI involvement in this case- After all, according to their mandate, one of their priorities is to "work with law enforcement and security agencies in their host country to coordinate investigations of interest to both countries."

It sure would bother me if I kept seeing falsehoods about my children. here you have been on this site for 2 days and you have a post count of 194....like ....WOW...you see some of us see you constantly posting the same thing...not to flame you but in some cases people ask for it, as you are. You are CONSTANTLY Repeating RUMORS...there is NO TRUTH in what you keep posting..so you are assuming that the News Media have their story and it is 100% correct??? I guess you have fogotten - "RatherGate" i for one am tired of seeing people accuse ithers without ANY Proof.....these are 17 yr olds and young men with a Life ahead of them, if they are PROVEN in a court of LAW then I am behind their hopeful very TOUGH Sentence/Punishments. But AGAIN, all that the Authorities have stated are that these 3 have changed the LOCATION where they left Natalee and that change has ONLY been 1 TIME....let's see 194 posts RazzyBerry(since you joined yesterday) you are averaging 4.6 posts per hour for the last 42 hours straight....WOW


GuyWdog

RB - thanks for your comments re: insurance and speed of response - very useful info!

and Absolut - with you on the CnC comments - not sure if you saw my post yesterday: http://www.scaredmonkeys.com/Discussion/viewtopic.php?p=31258&highlight=#31258

Over at Riehl's site the posters are saying yes, her step-cousins were on the trip.

There was a time when I liked her...but, lately I've despised her one sided drooling reports.  She and Geraldo could have a nice little hand wringing pity party together....

Ugghhhhh.

Now this is a fascinating theory, candygirl and RB. Instead of an either or situation, you're thinking both murder and kidnap (or rather, murder and then pretend kidnapping), if I'm following correctly. Damn, that is a pretty dastardly stroke of genius. Do you think that's where PvS might come in?

Yep, although I prefer to say death instead of murder, since I've no idea and don't have enough info to figure what happened - I just know she's missing. The pretend kidnapping thought were explain PvS' involvement from the perspective of part of the "cover up".

Amen!

The point is that the boys are still in jail because they lied about something as serious as kidnapping or potentially murder.  Would any of you have lied to help a friend out of a possible murder or kidnapping charge.  I mean come on, it takes a special kind of stupid to do something like that.  I believe, from what is known, that they are more involved than even they want to tell their mother.

Wasnt there a HUGE drug bust down that way two weeks before all the dead and missing started.

Im glad youre impressed, its been hard work , but its been worth it..., If i had a daughter and that was missing and the last people to see her lied to me about where she was Id be just as determined as her parents are to make sure they were convicted of some sort of crime.  The first 48 hours of a murder are the critical stage and these boys led police on a wild goose chase during that time.  But lets all feel sorry for them.
Boo HOO

AMEN!!!

Actually, they would work with the family in this instance, at least initially. Hence why they were there right away.  It's not uncommon in this circumstance and is part of SOP in travel risk mgmt cases.

HEavyHEart-at the time these BOYS did change their story, but maybe at the time they thought that Natale was just Missing...now that would totally change your theory, wouldn't it?

GuyWdog.....facts..I see No Facts around here. I see a lynch mob mentality.....

What in the world is a "pretend kidnapping"?  Just asking....!!!

Relax Guy, they're entitled to their opinion.  As are you :)

Geraldo is annoying but Nancy Grace is the rudest head ever I've seen on the HNN show.  She is bad enough on Court TV but goes crazy on HNN.  I hope she's fired soon.

I was responding to the question about them being at CNC's that night.

If I go off the MB recollections of CNC's that night it was the tamest and safest bar on the island, and while they were there, there was no X, no pot, no coke, no sex dances on the stage and no free drinks to take them past the relm of responsible drinkers.

I guess it was a holiday that night at CNC's. Again none of this makes it right that she is missing.

It's only pretend - a misdirection if you will.  You have a victim, the victim is dead.  You make a call demanding ransom.  Happens in Mexico City all the time - it's the top spot for abduction, and travel risk mgmt companies can even tell you that if you're abducted in a specific region of Mexico, whether you'll really get out alive or not.  Apparently, some kidnappers are more likely to let you live than others.

The Kalpoe brothers will not be released tomorrow as they impeded the investigation initally, joined into a conspiracy, and signed statements to the Aruban police which were false. I would imagine those statements were signed under a penalty of perjury provision of the Dutch law and thus subject to whatever that punishment entails.

Yep, although I prefer to say death instead of murder, since I've no idea and don't have enough info to figure what happened - I just know she's missing. The pretend kidnapping thought were explain PvS' involvement from the perspective of part of the "cover up".


I agree ie;Pauls involvement.  Plus, they're saying more arrest today &/or tomorrow.  These could be the persons involved in the phone calls, ransom?
Someone from the media, said that when this all comes out it will be completely out of relm that people are speculating.  

There's something more here:  The rapidity of their response is much greater than in a "normal" case and the number of agents is guite high.  Do you think if you or I went missing in Aruba, there would be a DEA agent to help our family just as they got off the plane, and there would be more than a dozen FBI agents working on our case???

Can anyone tell me the authenticity of the rumors that Natalee's bodily fluids were found in the VDSs cars????

I agree ie;Pauls involvement.  Plus, they're saying more arrest today &/or tomorrow.  These could be the persons involved in the phone calls, ransom?
Someone from the media, said that when this all comes out it will be completely out of relm that people are speculating.  

well, we're speculating so we could be way off base. :)

Maybe the boys didn't know at the time that kidnapping or murder were being charged. Maybe they thought that Joran was being accused of raping Natalee? :roll:

Rumored that one of the cousins was involved in the scuffle with Joran, I can't figure out when that scuffle happened.

There's something more here: The rapidity of their response is much greater than in a "normal" case and the number of agents is guite high. Do you think if you or I went missing in Aruba, there would be a DEA agent to help our family just as they got off the plane, and there would be more than a dozen FBI agents working on our case???

Depends on the risk plan to address it.  If DEA was involved, they may have had "inside" information and therefore the FBI thought it had more to act on.

I gotta agree with Razzy on this one...this kind of lying is definitely an indication of guilt, this kid has been covering his ass from day one...he conived his friends to cover for him, got his dad involved and even allowed two innocent security guards to sit in jail while he waltzed around his last days in high school. His dad allowed that too. He allowed her parents to live in pain with their questions unanswered regarding her whereabouts.  First of all if he spilled his guts to his Dad and he's innocent and lying due to some teenage nervous need to cover up...There is no way his dad is gonna let his life and family go down for a innocent kid caught in a teenage lie.

Joran was the last person known to see Natalee alive.  He lied and he's still lying almost a month later.  This is a RED FLAG for investigators.  I agree with Beth Twitty...this kid holds the key to where she is!!

Razzy can be irritating with his/her blunt observations.  But, it's reality. Common sense, reality. Frankly this is exactly how investigators think.  I've not seen one gritty cop interviewed who doesn't say the exact thing.

No, the boy's story did not change for quite a while, more than 10 days I believe (FACT), when they were jailed.  One (not sure which) even pressured Joran to not talk to the Twitty's when they were questioning him (FACT).  

On the first point; it takes a special kind of stupid to keep lying for a friend for this long on a subject that you know after a couple of days that is more serious than just a missing girl.

Second point; is from the mouth of Jug Twitty himself.

The scuffle happened a couple days before the disappearance.

Ah, I think I would do the same for my daughter wouldn't you. I am not so sure if they are connected, but maybe they have friends or friends of friends. You would be amazed what 3 or 4 degrees of separation gets you.

The fund raiser today in MB is partly for the cost of the family being in Aruba and probably for donations to the TX search team. They are a non-profit. I think people always come to the help of others when unfortunate situations occur.

There is a reason why this story has resonated with so many.

And also some people seem to forget that we are talking about 17 year old kids here, not adults...when put under intense pressure they are known to say whatever they have to say thinking that it will get them out of the situation.And do not get me wrong, I am not saying that these boys are innocent by any stretch of the imagination, but none of us truly knows if they are giulty or innocent.We are not the judge, jury and executioners.

Just now on FOX Satish's lawyer says LE should let his boy go because they "just keep asking him the same questions over and over". He then says " they (LE) know who they have to ask questions too". ???? This looked like a little finger pointing to me. I thought all the boys were on the same page now. No?

I just wanted to interject and say that I am glad to see someone who knows how to disagree with someone without having to lower themselves to name calling... :D

About the distance, jairo, I drove yesterday night from the beginning of Fisherman's Huts to Montanja, and according to my kilometer reader it was 5 km, so 3 miles.

About searching the houses of v/d S, and brothers, they searched it when they were being interrogated. They may have gone back to seize the computer, but they searched the house and the lead prosecutor Caren Janssen got annoyed when asked that question twice, that's why I remember.

The parents (I'm thinking mom and stepfather) changed the headings to from missing to kidnapping themselves. van der Straaten's reaction was that the stressed that there was no evidence of kidnapping.

No one not involved in the investigation can tell you anything about any of the evidence gathered yet.

No one here is involved in the investigation.

Red, did I see you say earlier that BHT is in MB today for this fundraiser?

So we have as the main reason for the response that Natalee is in the middle of a hornet's nset of bad guys already fingered for other illegal activities??  I agree with you but how does little Joran fit in; he's no pro.

Urm, I'm not trying to be mean, but the government said that they would pick up the tab for the family staying in Aruba. Maybe it's for the other members ( aunts, cousins etc)?

And that's the only thing they have on these guys. Just like Martha Stewart.

I told my son yesterday that if he was ever missing I would spend everyday of the rest of my life to find him.

Sure is a long time to stick to a story you know is false when the case is far more serious than a rape.  

Are you saying you would cover for a friend suspected of rape?

Arubagirl, which roads did you take?

There can be so many costs beyond just the hotel tab or meals.  People are away from their jobs and businesses.  That means they might be losing all are part of their regular income.

So we have as the main reason for the response that Natalee is in the middle of a hornet's nset of bad guys already fingered for other illegal activities?? I agree with you but how does little Joran fit in; he's no pro.

It's well known that there have been increasing reports of human trafficking associated with drug trafficking in Venezeula and other countries in and around Aruba.  It's actually in a special State Department notification to travellers - and kidnapping Americans is common to the northwest in Latin America.

It wouldn't take a rocket scientist to use the premise of kidnapping to cover a death you didn't want uncovered.

What exactly are those changes? The only change that I recall is that Joran first evaded being placed on the beach that night by saying that they were dropped off at the HI. I can think of many reasons why he didn't want to be implicated and most of those do not imply guilt on his part. Considering the pressure they've put on him and him being only a 17 yr old, I'm suprised there haven't been more changes. Dutch interrogators are very tough and they've squeezed false confessions out of perfectly innocent people on (many) more than one occassion.

Also, about Van der Sloot sr. telling his son not to say another word when Beth, Jug and their people first showed up: I think their attititude really ticked him off. From what I understand, they were bossy and condescending and they made accusations that they had no business making. Dutch people are extremely sensitive to this - we believe very strongly in equality and no matter how much money or blue blood you may have, no Dutchman will accept it when you try to boss him around like that (well, unless you happen to *be* his boss that is :wink: ). I'm sure it would have been much more productive if they'd approached them with some respect.


P.S.: why quote so much? It's good netiquette to not quote more than you add, yourself.

Im hurt you didnt roll your eyes at me inspector. :lol:

Cant remember who posted it, but remember a while back when someone posted their brother works in FBI and says the case isnt what everyone thinks it is? I wondered about the validity of that and it has weighed on my mind since....

Yeah, I mentioned the other day just how much paid time off can they really have. I don't care how nice the house neighborhood etc. There is still a mortgage, and utilities and car payments to be made.

It is my understanding that Beth is a teacher and if she is out for summer she is fairly safe.  As for Jug, I'm not sure.  I'm sure his employer is understanding in this situation.  I don't have a clue regarding Dave Holloway.  I hope some of these donations are going to help him stay down there.  

I know I would spend every last cent I had to find my child...maybe every last cent someone was willing to loan me too.

Jairo: I started at the very beginning of Fisherman's huts. Went right on Sasaki, took the left lane of the traffic lights at McDonald's level to go left. Went left, went straight until I ended up at the traffic lights of Noord (was at the level of Caribbean Palm Village). Went right at those traffic lights, drove straight, passed Fermin's bar, took the left at the next intersection. So that particular road is in between Fermin's bar and the sportcomplex that they're building. Went down that road, in about 3 minutes you will find a "t-kruising", went right, drove for about 2 minutes, and I saw a sign that says Montanja appartments and stopped counting there. I don't know at which number I was exactly, but I was in Montanja.

Yeah, I mentioned the other day just how much paid time off can they really have. I don't care how nice the house neighborhood etc. There is still a mortgage, and utilities and car payments to be made.

12 weeks.  FMLA

Thx, arubagirl, eventhough I don't understand why you need to bold my name. I just think it's too far for him to walk from the Mariott all the way to his house.

Cant remember who posted it, but remember a while back when someone posted their brother works in FBI and says the case isnt what everyone thinks it is? I wondered about the validity of that and it has weighed on my mind since....

Nikki, that was poster on riehl...and I remember the post :)

Is the Marriott (next to the Holiday Inn) open for business..?

So that's why the Arubans are asking the Twittys to take a polygraph? :roll:

Daniel, I may lie the one time. But when I'm actually in custody, you'd better believe that I'll be singing like a canary if I'm innocent of those charges.

Just my opinion.

She bolds it so it's easier for you to see and she doesn't take up a quote like I did in this post :)

Sorry, I don't know who said this:

"I agree ie;Pauls involvement.  Plus, they're saying more arrest today &/or tomorrow.  These could be the persons involved in the phone calls, ransom? Someone from the media, said that when this all comes out it will be completely out of relm that people are speculating. "

Who in the media would have this kind of information??  Also, I'm sure I missed this earlier - who said there will be more arrests today or tomorrow?

Sorry if this has been covered 10,000 times.

lotta colombians on aruba.  low class  ones working the hotel jobs, upper class ones laundering money and gambling.  they go over on lear jets for the weekend. highrollers.   they move dope through aruban ports.  Aruba is very vulnerable being located where it is.[/quote]

This is still another possibility,,  Mariott Hotel keeps popping up at me..There could be a connection between hotel employees and drugs...Of course young locals would probably know them..  just a thought

We know that after that PTOB runs out FMLA is just the job (you weren't doing anyway) saver.

That's why some are asking for a lie detector test, yes, inspector. I myself am very curious as to what precisely the rep. meant with that statement.

I have a question, hope someone can help me out. Did Beth Twitty talk to the MBH students before leaving? I remember reading in some transcript that she didn't, but that can also be my imagination.

Jairo, I bold your name so that you can see that I'm talking to you specifically.

arrabba
 

Amen

nikkibnurse


I dont think she is. Nat's aunt, MARCIA TWITTY,  is that you see alot on the shows is. Some of our fellow board members are as well.

INSPECTOR said"So that's why the Arubans are asking the Twittys to take a polygraph? "

I have only heard the retired police officer make a statement like that.

So that's why the Arubans are asking the Twittys to take a polygraph?

Just like we don't understand the Aruban/Dutch law/investigation procedures, they wouldn't understand this.  I don't think it's ever happened there....

BINGO! [/b]

Agree completely Guy....and coco, and Sunny, and....

When I hear these rumors and innuendos presented as fact....and Nat's an angel and Joran's the devil incarnate....it makes me really glad that in the US you are INNOCENT until proven guilty!!  It's not a fool proof system, but at least they start in the right place.....

(PS...Nat may be an angel....but honors students who are on the pre-med track (me in a former life!) have been known to do out-of-character things when partying!!)

Michael, Marriott has been open for business for 10 years now, I think. They are building a new wing.

Aruba doesn't allow polygraphs of ANYONE...not suspects or parents of missing children.

<<If I go off the MB recollections of CNC's that night it was the tamest and safest bar on the island, and while they were there, there was no X, no pot, no coke, no sex dances on the stage and no free drinks to take them past the relm of responsible drinkers.

I guess it was a holiday that night at CNC's.>>


The official Carlos 'n' Charlie's statement backs MB claims that it was relatively tame that night:

"A group of 40 Americans came to our restaurant on Sunday evening, the 29th of May....Being a Sunday evening, the restaurant was quiet with a small crowd of around 15 patrons."

http://carlosncharliesaruba.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=2&sid=75e95b48fbc62b23864daa7c03bed65e

hey i dont know what has been goin on today at all plz someone give me the latest details

If you've first told a lie, admitting to that is not going to add to your credibility, especially not when you are in custody. So I'm not surprised that he didn't change his statement until it became clear that it didn't match what the Kalpoes were saying.

From what I understand we are not supposed to post things that might upset the suspects family.

FIFTEEN patrions?!!! Okaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay.

Regarding having the TWitty's take a polygraph....

While researching investigative techniques I came across how to build a profile of the perpetuator of a crime.  You start with the victim, then the location of the crime.   You start looking at the personality of the victim to guage her probable responses to events.  There are more steps after that, but knowing your victim helps to know your perp.

I think what we have here is a problem with the word "fact" in some of the posts, yes?

That retired cop that keeps jumping on the news down there is a little off his rocker...JMO.

Daniel, by my count he has about three stories

1) Dopped off at Holiday Inn
2) Dropped off at his house
3) Dropped off at Marriott / Fisherman's huts.

{So that's why the Arubans are asking the Twittys to take a polygraph? }

Could very well be......?

Thats probably in chapter one of interrogations 101. If there is such a book.

heavyheart, he is a little bit off his rocker, yet there are people who would like to ask the family some very pointed questions. Especially about the rep's comments.

Or maybe someone is using the murder charge to cover up a kidnapping problem. In case of a murder , you just lock up the murderer. But if you've got a kidnapping problem on your island, it wont be good for tourism... :roll:

Did no one read my reply to what GuyWDog wrote?  Plenty of fact in it.

I beleive it was CNN Plus didn't Fox news report more arrest today also? I thought that was mentioned earlier

The nasty PM's im getting say I cant say anything that might be construed as "lynch mob behavior" and "I better keep my post count down ...OR ELSE!!"

so what is the new news for today????

heavyheart - it appears that one person's fact is another person's fiction. That's the difficulty with this case.

Yes but the Arubans cannot stop the FBI from giving polygraphs to Americans (The Twittys)

Just curious, ag, do we truly "know" he said no. 2?  His mother stated he went from 1 to 3....as did Kalpoe bros' mother I believe...?

thanks...

goon:  why would you believe two self-serving statements like this?  sure doesn't match what jug saw the next night as he stated on TV last evening. he thinks it should be more closely monitored.  I checked the cand c website just after natalee's disappearance became public and they were apologetically announcing a new policy of carding at the door.

I agree if they have gotten what they believe to be a true description of what condition she was in when JVDS "left" her. Then knowing exactly the events of earlier may help them define accidently death or the possibility of it. Since the Aruba LE never got to speak directly to those with her before JVDS and there is no record of true that we know to be true could make knowing the end that much harder. They at this point know very little of the victim.

I am not sure if this has been mentioned today you guys are ripping throught these pages like they are standing still,  :D thats a good thing.

Anyway... after Justice Minister Rudy Croes made the comments about Papa VDS being arrested to put pressure on the son. Of course I am shaking my head my anyone would make that public, but one wonders if they truely have nothing on the dad and they want to continue to put pressure on the son as they feel he is close to cracking ...

Was it coincidence that the judge missed his plane to come to Aruba to decide whether Paul Van der Sloot continues to remain in custody? Seems like a rather convenient way to get some more interrogation & pressue time in.

Especially if they feel Joran is close to crackng like many have said today

The court appearances scheduled for today are postponed until tomorrow because a judge from Curacao had trouble with his flight.  

Rumors that satish and Croes may be released.  

More rumors that there may be more arrests.

inspector...believing polygraphs, you are either former/current LE or a very misinformed citizen.  Go read-up on polygraphs.

I have been sitting here for a couple of hours just reading not replying.  There has been a lot of speculating going on with some pretty far fetched ideas...........that somehow could make sense!!  Does that make sense??

Thank you for clearing that up.

Was it coincidence that the judge missed his plane to come to Aruba to decide whether Paul Van der Sloot continues to remain in custody? Seems like a rather convenient way to get some more interrogation & pressue time in.

Yep it does seem like it was planned, doesn't it.

Makes perfect sense to me..if we can just sloooowly move away from what we have HEARD in the media..rumor or supposed fact then things may be a little clearer.

we once "knew" from the security guard who talked to him in jail that he said they dropped him off first, exchanged emails, etc.  i remember that.

Just don't post about your kitty cat. Follow the guidelines and I'll bet your just fine. We are not a victims rights board.

they cant release croes i think he has a lot more to do with this than people think. if she was kidnapped im sure he was the one to set it up.

okay here me out a second- if NH had befriended Joran a few days before-- then wouldn't it give him the time to do whatever he intended on doing with her- I'm saying if he's involved in something illegal or whatever- he has his plan already in motion- so to speak

RED said :"Was it coincidence that the judge missed his plane to come to Aruba to decide whether Paul Van der Sloot continues to remain in custody? Seems like a rather convenient way to get some more interrogation & pressue time in. "

I read on the Riehl site that the plane had mechanical problems and that it would be too late in the evening when he would arrive and therefore postponed the hearing until tomorrow morning.

i thought his flight was cancelled.

I personally, bob, think that's whack of them to say.  There is more than one plane there and it only takes a half hour to fly over... :)

He is young and an athete....I am old and a housewife and I walk/run/jog 3 miles a day....

I had a different reason for the hearing delay. I'll post at midnight what had if it doesn't pan out.

Croes actually said that! This case gets more bizarre by the day!

Maybe there was a death threat.

Ahh ... Then maybe you may want to explain to the world how Joran VDS was in there at sh um 17? And explain why I have seen how many pics of him in that bar?

Geez, some truth may be nice rather than just a CYA statement.

I bet the Holloways could have found a plane for him.

Yes mehill, it was 5km.

Red, trust me, those planes fail.All.The.Damn.Time.

FACT: Joran has changed his story.  Why?
FACT: One of the two brothers was encouraging Joran not to talk to the Twitty's the night they arrived and contacted Joran.  From the mouth of Jug Twitty.
FACT: The brothers held onto a story for more than 10 days before changing their story. Duh, who doesn't know this already.
FACT: After 10 days it was obvious that she was not just hanging out somewhere.  Ok, this is a bit of an assumption :-), but highly unlikely from what we have heard about the type of person she is.

You betcha, arrabba :)  And my bet it would be a Fox Alert if they did ;)

I Pray thats the case....break'em......PLEASE!!!!

Oh, about the him being dropped off at his house, that's what his lawyer said that his story was the first time they had to face the judge of instructions (rechter-comissaris)

I dont think they will ever crack joran without a body and physical evidence to implicate him.  he only tells the truth when he has to.

I did this exercise already and they threatened to give me my own thread to talk to myself.

A razzy post without a quote. Saving this in a safe place :)

Honestly, we better be clear on these rules.  Cuz people have been doing lynch mob posts from day one.  How about poor Lorenzo?  Wonder woman's faux email she refuses prove it's validity. Calling the mother and family all kinds of names....going after the Holloways, Twittys and the MB kids....

And, contriving all kinds of theories of which many have NO basis in fact and many name innocent people's names over and over!  As I said yesterday, there's even a psychic's site someone alerted me to that I swear features several posters from her calling themselves "Red" (who lives in Aruba) trying out SM theories on the online psychics!  Jeez.

Most people here are wonderful...but, there's so much of the pot calling the kettle black!

The ONLY Fact stated by the Arubain Authorities is that the 3 boys changed the L-O-C-A-T-I-O-N as to where they left Natalee. Everything else is Speculation, while I dont have a problem with theorizing, I do have a BIG Problem with Presnting your Theories off as FACTS. They aren't they are what they are RUMORS and INNUENDOS. I feel for all of the FAMILIES involved, both Victims and the Arrested. I could see the Kalpoes Mother's anguish. At this point all they have done is adjust their story 500 METERS, which in my guestimate is 1500 yards as to WHERE they left Natalee. It is not like they said they left her on the other side of the Island. Joran has also adjusted his story, thats it. As FAR as we know. I have seen a lynch mob before and LISTEN people, when you have a lynch mob you will NEVER get to the truth. By the time all the facts come out everything has been so corrupted byt then that non true impartial judge can ever tell exactly what happened. MAYBEJoran did a dastardly deed,Mayeb he didn't I know that if he is guilty then I want him to pay for his crime. And that can ONLYhappen if the TRUTH comes out and is NOT CORRUPTED.
 I am not taking sides, but here in America you are INNOCENT UNTIL proven GUILTY. I Know the rest of the WORLD is watching us AMERICANS, we shoould show the World we are fair minded people, that want the TRUTH to come out, and this TRUTH should be acceptable to everyone not just the LYNCH MOB......not pointing fingers, but everyne please be respectful for the Innocent people that are caught up in this mess. There are plenty of peple that have a stake in this affair, that will get HURt no matter what outcome...thanx...

GuyWdog

So we know for sure that he has had three different stories.

Arubagirl, the story about Joran being dropped off at his home was when he told on of the 2 guards held in the police station at Noord. It was one of the guards who told the public this story.

I'm sure his 6'5" height makes him look a little older than 17. :lol:

ALM Always Late Machine.

Ok...if this is the case...I give up.