Kyron Horman, 7 years old PORTLAND, OR #7 7/17/10 - 7/20/10

[islandmonkey]

I still have not figured out how to bold. Having said this, in the last comment made by PDH3, she stated that "Judges do not keep babies away from their mothers without a very good reason". I beg to differ. While MOST judges are astute and make the right choice, there have been judges in the past who have placed children in the wrong hands. It has been proven when the parent withheld from their child no longer has their child. Their child was murdered by the very parent that these judges have placed them with. It does and has happened. Sickening but true. And please let me clarify, I am not insinuating that the judge made the wrong choice in the Horman case. I am waiting to see how it all plays out and praying that Kyron is home safe and soon.

Don't make my statement broader than it was meant to be.




I didn't say judges don't make mistakes. That wasn't the issue. I was talking about babies. It takes a lot of good evidence for a judge to separate a baby from a stay at home Mom. That means that there were compelling reasons for this judge to keep Terri away from Kiara. It is an extremely unusual ruling, especially since Kiara will now have to go to daycare.

From personal experience that is not always the case. My sister left her abusive husband in January, in March she finally felt comfortable enough to let him have the 2 kids for the weekend. She went to pick them up on Sunday afternoon and he called the police. In January (when he did not have the kids) he had went to court, swore that he had sole custody, swore that my sister had abandoned them and his now wife swore that she was a friend of hers and she had made the statement that if she could not have the kids then no one would. Thus full custody and a RO. She never did get her kids back, was not able to see them while they were growing up and only was able to contact them when they got into their teen years. Every time they went to court he had someone new there lying about her. How do I know it was all lies?? Because she lived with me, I knew what went on in her daily life. So it isn't always compelling reasons, sometimes it can just be compelling stories.

  I will say I agree with this Lenie, there is a poster here at SM whose daughter had a child, toddler IIRC and I can go back and search but won't post the name - anyway her daughter and baby daddy were never married and when he had the child for visitation he filed for custody and won, seems Ron Cummings did something very similar IIRC. This poster's daughter has been fighting for custody but just as in so many cases it take a tremendous amount of evidence to overturn custody even when we see the cases where it should have been done. Also, my ex won custody of his two kids (they weren't infants, but 8 and 11) after 2 yrs of outplaying the "game" so to speak, he spent over $240,000.00 on the divorce/custody battle and even though every psychologist including the court appointed guardian ad litem testified that the mother would be the better parent to have residential custody somehow he won and then when she would try to visit the kids he would say they already had plans out of town and would lie when she called and told them they were outside, doing homework etc., finally I started having the kids call their mom when he was gone and bought the plane tickets with my money to send them for visits. So, when I divorced him I played the same way he did, and learned ~5 months into the seperation when my son was 3 that he had sexually molested my precious son, and since after the divorce HIS kids stayed with me and I raised them, I'm pretty confident he did the same to them:( They cut him out of their lives 100%, he lost all parental rights and doesn't even know what state I live in. Also, you would have NEVER in a million yrs expected this man to be a monster/sociopath, he went to church every Sunday, led a ministry and was the CEO of a bank and the president of a fortune 500 company............so, it just goes to prove that you never know what truly goes on inside the home, nor can you broadly state that the judge gets it right all the time, it just happens to appear in any case (not this one specifically) that when a mother doesn't have custody everyone assumes she must be a hard core POS scum bag and in fact my step-children's mother was none of the above, and comes to Florida when the the my step son is on leave from Iraq and I always make sure there is room for her at the house/table and that she feels welcomed.

  rant over

[Brandi]

Jersey Girl, thanks for sharing your story with us.  I am so thankful for your cousin he had family members who cared so much about him!  So often, that is just not the case.

NRCG and Klaas, I thought James was included in the restraining order, no?

The restraining order states CHILD/CHILDREN of the petitioner/respondent and I think some people were including James in that but actually the only CHILD/CHILDREN of Kaine and Terri is Kiara.  So it was a misunderstanding of the RO.

Well, understandably it got confused, on June 10, ABC stated:

The restraining order prohibits Terri Horman from having contact with her other children, an older son and the toddler daughter. Kaine Horman is asking Oregon courts for sole custody of the little girl.
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/kyron-horman-family-crumbles-amid-explosive-court-documents/story?id=11050953

(You can't always believe what you read. LOL)

But Klaas is right. Kiara is the only child the RO includes, IMO.

[klaasend]

so TH has the date on the pic wrong? since she didnt show up till 2004

She must. It looks to me like she's got a ring on her finger in the "2003" pic. I don't have the right software to magnify it; can someone else take a peek?

What picture are you referring to?

This one but makes no difference really because we know they didn't get married until 2007:

[Brandi]

Jersey Girl, thanks for sharing your story with us.  I am so thankful for your cousin he had family members who cared so much about him!  So often, that is just not the case.

NRCG and Klaas, I thought James was included in the restraining order, no?

The restraining order states CHILD/CHILDREN of the petitioner/respondent and I think some people were including James in that but actually the only CHILD/CHILDREN of Kaine and Terri is Kiara.  So it was a misunderstanding of the RO.

Well, understandably it got confused, on June 10 30, ABC stated:

The restraining order prohibits Terri Horman from having contact with her other children, an older son and the toddler daughter. Kaine Horman is asking Oregon courts for sole custody of the little girl.
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/kyron-horman-family-crumbles-amid-explosive-court-documents/story?id=11050953

(You can't always believe what you read. LOL)

But Klaas is right. Kiara is the only child the RO includes, IMO.

Quoted to fix typo. Changed June 10 to June 30.

[Brandi]

so TH has the date on the pic wrong? since she didnt show up till 2004

She must. It looks to me like she's got a ring on her finger in the "2003" pic. I don't have the right software to magnify it; can someone else take a peek?

What picture are you referring to?

This one but makes no difference really because we know they didn't get married until 2007:

Thanks, Klaas.

Terri and Richard Ecker divorced in 2002. Maybe she liked her bling and kept wearing it after the divorce.

JMO.

[mediamama]

so TH has the date on the pic wrong? since she didnt show up till 2004

She must. It looks to me like she's got a ring on her finger in the "2003" pic. I don't have the right software to magnify it; can someone else take a peek?

What picture are you referring to?

This one but makes no difference really because we know they didn't get married until 2007:

Thanks, Klaas.

Terri and Richard Ecker divorced in 2002. Maybe she liked her bling and kept wearing it after the divorce.

JMO.

LOL Brandi. Yes, that was the pic I was referring to. I was just curious as to whether or not it was an engagement ring, really. Theirs seems like a whirlwind courtship from what we've read.

[Patricia Mocha Latte]

I tend to agree with TH's lawyer based on the fact that there is no hard evidence that points in her direction other than hearsay. No the sexting part does not "look" good. It's a fact, people have sex everyday. In fact it is also true that people have "affairs" every day too. The timing is way off considering that there is a little boy missing that happens to be her step-Son but, Terri is into body building and she has said that it is one of her favorite things according to a recently released survey that she had allegedly taken online.
Can I quote from the movie "Legally Blonde" for a second?
" Exercise gives you endorphins. Endorphins make you happy."
So not only does TH work out she also has sex. (Or is it sex and sexting? Gah!)

imvho Terri was not happy so she was most likely doing what she could, even at this most critical time, to be happy?

KH is also noted as having been "working out" since the day Kyron was reported as missing.

(I think I might have just been having a few "blonde" moments?)
I'm not a true blonde though! LOL!

BBM

It's not true that there is "no evidence" against Terri. Just because LE does not tell us what they have doesn't mean they don't have some kind of evidence against her. All defense lawyers discount what LE has against their clients because that's what they're hired to do.
There was enough evidence to convince a judge to issue an RO, and that is significant. The threat was credible enough to get her kicked out of her home, and to keep her away from her baby. Judges DO NOT keep babies away from their mothers without a very good reason.
There's also the failed polygraphs and the fact that she is NOT cooperating with LE to find a child that she supposedly loves. She lied to LE about her activities on the day Kyron went missing. She wasn't too preoccupied with finding Kyron to have a desire, and the time to sext Good Neighbor Mikey. Why is that? I think it's because she KNOWS what happened to Kyron.
Ask John Walsh and his wife how much time they had in the immediate aftermath of Adam's disappearance to send dirty pictures to "helpful" neighbors. Or ask Marc Klass, or Mark Lundsford. Ask them if it ever crossed their minds....
As far as Kaine working out....it has been explained on here about a hundred times, but since you brought it up AGAIN....I will debunk it. The gym was the headquarters for donations for the searchers.People stopped by with offers of help. Kaine was there every day checking in to find out what needed to be done to find Kyron. He also worked out to help relieve the stress he was under so that he could clear his mind, and function enough to find his son.

It's time to stop all these misleading posts. STOP with the rumors. I'm not sure what your purpose is, but I have a pretty good idea.

Pardon me pdh3 but if there were enough "hard evidence" to suggest that TH was guilty she would have been arrested by now.

You have a pretty good idea what my purpose is?
Good.
Then that means that you fully understand that my purpose is to look at this case objectively and to participate in open minded discussion regarding the disappearance of this little boy and other cases that are being discussed here at SM also.

So you believe that my posts are misleading? How so? I really would like to know what your thoughts are. I am not here to create disdain for posting my thoughts about this or any other case. I have no issue with you for your thoughts but obviously you have issue with mine. No really, is it because I am thinking outside the box here or am I just not falling in line with the opinions that you yourself feel comfortable with?
Help me out. I am not understanding what you are getting at exactly.

tia

You have no idea what evidence LE has. So you cannot state that they have none. Your post is misleading because you are stating that as a fact. Just because some posters and a defense lawyer say there is none doesn't make that true.
The truth is that NO ONE KNOWS what evidence LE has at this point. They aren't talking to you, or any other poster on the internet.

Your posts have and full of rumors and misleading statements, and lots of bashing. This forum is not the place for that. klaas has already posted about it, and given a link for those who don't support the victims. Maybe you need to move on to that site.

So in your opinion LE has enough solid evidence that they "could" arrest TH but, for some reason, they either haven't or won't? Interesting. If true I wonder what the reason behind that would be?
If you read my comments I make sure to use the IMO or IMVHO often. I am also very careful not to accuse anyone directly and approach my theory and all possibilities as supposition.
You on the other hand are outright accusing me of what I have bolded in your post above.
Where is your proof?

I don't recall Klaas ever correcting me for anything that you are suggesting and I trust Klaas to be fair. If Klaas asks questions regarding my thoughts about something I am sure to respond to her and she responds in kind if asked questions etc...

It seems to me that you are possibly thinking that Klaas is not doing her job in here as you are taking it upon yourself to call me out for what you are directly accusing me of.

Obviously my presence here and contributions are meaningless to you. Maybe you are right? I think it is probably best that I step back from posting on this case rather than to continue with this type of dialouge with you as it clearly takes away from discussing the case regarding Kyron's disappearance.

Before I go though I am curious about something...
If you are so confident and certain about KH's guilt, why on earth would you feel the need to attack someone who isn't?
IMVHO Your arguments would be better served by sticking to the known facts of the case and presenting those pieces of information rather attacking others on a personal level just because they disagree with you.

I have never seen a debate won by emotional rants and I never will. You attacked me directly and unfairly and that is personal imo.
IMVHO you also wasted a perfect opportunity to possibly change my mind about the direction of this case.

Take care.

[islandmonkey]

I still have not figured out how to bold. Having said this, in the last comment made by PDH3, she stated that "Judges do not keep babies away from their mothers without a very good reason". I beg to differ. While MOST judges are astute and make the right choice, there have been judges in the past who have placed children in the wrong hands. It has been proven when the parent withheld from their child no longer has their child. Their child was murdered by the very parent that these judges have placed them with. It does and has happened. Sickening but true. And please let me clarify, I am not insinuating that the judge made the wrong choice in the Horman case. I am waiting to see how it all plays out and praying that Kyron is home safe and soon.

Don't make my statement broader than it was meant to be.




I didn't say judges don't make mistakes. That wasn't the issue. I was talking about babies. It takes a lot of good evidence for a judge to separate a baby from a stay at home Mom. That means that there were compelling reasons for this judge to keep Terri away from Kiara. It is an extremely unusual ruling, especially since Kiara will now have to go to daycare.

From personal experience that is not always the case. My sister left her abusive husband in January, in March she finally felt comfortable enough to let him have the 2 kids for the weekend. She went to pick them up on Sunday afternoon and he called the police. In January (when he did not have the kids) he had went to court, swore that he had sole custody, swore that my sister had abandoned them and his now wife swore that she was a friend of hers and she had made the statement that if she could not have the kids then no one would. Thus full custody and a RO. She never did get her kids back, was not able to see them while they were growing up and only was able to contact them when they got into their teen years. Every time they went to court he had someone new there lying about her. How do I know it was all lies?? Because she lived with me, I knew what went on in her daily life. So it isn't always compelling reasons, sometimes it can just be compelling stories.

This same type of scenario happened to my daughter as well.  She and her husband were separated.  She let him take my 3 year old granddaughter for a couple of weeks in the summer.  He did not bring her back and in fact hid her from us.  He filed for divorce and then put her in school where he lived.  He was able to get custody as it appeared he had been the primary custodian of the child.  My daughter has been devastated ever since.  I do not think judges have the time to make good decisions.  I was very disappointed in our court system here in Texas.

  I'm so sorry to hear that Bananas~amazing how many have experienced or know some one who has experienced this type of failure of the courts . I know my step-kids mom ended up becoming an alcoholic due to the judge's ruiling, and every time she tried to take him back to court (all before we were married, the judge would fine her for atty's fees  ) eventually she gave up. Thank God she now has a good relationship with the boys and their dad is in the living hell he created~which couldn't have happened to a nicer guy if you ask me

[Patricia Mocha Latte]

Quote from: pdh3 on July 20, 2010, 04:01:17 AM

"As far as Kaine working out....it has been explained on here about a hundred times, but since you brought it up AGAIN....I will debunk it.[/b].... The gym was the headquarters for donations for the searchers.People stopped by with offers of help. Kaine was there every day checking in to find out what needed to be done to find Kyron. He also worked out to help relieve the stress he was under so that he could clear his mind, and function enough to find his son."

You consider this as debunking?

Very well then.

[Wyks]

You have no idea what evidence LE has. So you cannot state that they have none. Your post is misleading because you are stating that as a fact. Just because some posters and a defense lawyer say there is none doesn't make that true.
The truth is that NO ONE KNOWS what evidence LE has at this point. They aren't talking to you, or any other poster on the internet.

Your posts have and full of rumors and misleading statements, and lots of bashing. This forum is not the place for that. klaas has already posted about it, and given a link for those who don't support the victims. Maybe you need to move on to that site.

So in your opinion LE has enough solid evidence that they "could" arrest TH but, for some reason, they either haven't or won't? Interesting. If true I wonder what the reason behind that would be?
If you read my comments I make sure to use the IMO or IMVHO often. I am also very careful not to accuse anyone directly and approach my theory and all possibilities as supposition.
You on the other hand are outright accusing me of what I have bolded in your post above.
Where is your proof?

I don't recall Klaas ever correcting me for anything that you are suggesting and I trust Klaas to be fair. If Klaas asks questions regarding my thoughts about something I am sure to respond to her and she responds in kind if asked questions etc...

It seems to me that you are possibly thinking that Klaas is not doing her job in here as you are taking it upon yourself to call me out for what you are directly accusing me of.

Obviously my presence here and contributions are meaningless to you. Maybe you are right? I think it is probably best that I step back from posting on this case rather than to continue with this type of dialouge with you as it clearly takes away from discussing the case regarding Kyron's disappearance.

Before I go though I am curious about something...
If you are so confident and certain about KH's guilt, why on earth would you feel the need to attack someone who isn't?
IMVHO Your arguments would be better served by sticking to the known facts of the case and presenting those pieces of information rather attacking others on a personal level just because they disagree with you.

I have never seen a debate won by emotional rants and I never will. You attacked me directly and unfairly and that is personal imo.
IMVHO you also wasted a perfect opportunity to possibly change my mind about the direction of this case.

Take care.

[/quote]

Patricia, 

Well stated and exactly on point, and with all due respect, IMO.  I agree with all that you have said above.  I hope that you stay and continue to post.   
 

[Wyks]

ackkk.. sorry for messing up that quote stack! 

[Patricia Mocha Latte]

ackkk.. sorry for messing up that quote stack! 

I messed up my last post somehow also. 
No worries.

TTYL

[Wyks]

Interesting to me the discussion y'all were having on where James was/is living and when.  Makes sense that he was 'officially' living at his grandparents home, but staying often with his dad/stepmom... and then 'officially' moving in with dad/stepmom when his grandparents needed to be at the Horman home.  From what we've seen in pics and read online etc, it does seem that James is being cared for, and in a good environment with his dad/stepmom.  Encouraging his interest in caring for horses is a wonderful thing, IMO, and kudos to Ron/Angela for being there for him.  Working with horses is a very healing and positive thing for anyone, especially soothing and settling with teens, IMO. 

[Tolerance]

Jersey Girl, thanks for sharing your story with us.  I am so thankful for your cousin he had family members who cared so much about him!  So often, that is just not the case.

NRCG and Klaas, I thought James was included in the restraining order, no?

The restraining order states CHILD/CHILDREN of the petitioner/respondent and I think some people were including James in that but actually the only CHILD/CHILDREN of Kaine and Terri is Kiara.  So it was a misunderstanding of the RO.

And IIRC  Nancy Grace did one of her bombshell, misleading, 'discussions' on this topic and she and/or her guest(S) kept bringing up that it included TH's older son..............I got very confused about this, too.  I believed for a long time she couldn't contact him.

[bananas]

Quote from: pdh3 on July 20, 2010, 04:01:17 AM

"As far as Kaine working out....it has been explained on here about a hundred times, but since you brought it up AGAIN....I will debunk it.[/b].... The gym was the headquarters for donations for the searchers.People stopped by with offers of help. Kaine was there every day checking in to find out what needed to be done to find Kyron. He also worked out to help relieve the stress he was under so that he could clear his mind, and function enough to find his son."

You consider this as debunking?

Very well then.

This is becoming redundant.  I walk a few miles every day because I need the exercise AND I walk even more when there is something stressful going on in my life.  It has become my release outlet.  When I walk and think about my problems, it is easier to be clear headed and work out some things in my mind.  Many people have something they do as a resease outlet.  It appears Kaine's is working out.  Why do we keep dwelling on it?  Everyone is different.... some would sit at home and wring their hands and cry, Kaine goes to the gym and works out his frustration.  JMO

[Wyks]

ackkk.. sorry for messing up that quote stack! 

I messed up my last post somehow also. 
No worries.

TTYL

LOL  thanks!  It happens, that's for sure!  lol   

[sebastian]

You have no idea what evidence LE has. So you cannot state that they have none. Your post is misleading because you are stating that as a fact. Just because some posters and a defense lawyer say there is none doesn't make that true.
The truth is that NO ONE KNOWS what evidence LE has at this point. They aren't talking to you, or any other poster on the internet.

Your posts have and full of rumors and misleading statements, and lots of bashing. This forum is not the place for that. klaas has already posted about it, and given a link for those who don't support the victims. Maybe you need to move on to that site.

So in your opinion LE has enough solid evidence that they "could" arrest TH but, for some reason, they either haven't or won't? Interesting. If true I wonder what the reason behind that would be?
If you read my comments I make sure to use the IMO or IMVHO often. I am also very careful not to accuse anyone directly and approach my theory and all possibilities as supposition.
You on the other hand are outright accusing me of what I have bolded in your post above.
Where is your proof?

I don't recall Klaas ever correcting me for anything that you are suggesting and I trust Klaas to be fair. If Klaas asks questions regarding my thoughts about something I am sure to respond to her and she responds in kind if asked questions etc...

It seems to me that you are possibly thinking that Klaas is not doing her job in here as you are taking it upon yourself to call me out for what you are directly accusing me of.

Obviously my presence here and contributions are meaningless to you. Maybe you are right? I think it is probably best that I step back from posting on this case rather than to continue with this type of dialouge with you as it clearly takes away from discussing the case regarding Kyron's disappearance.

Before I go though I am curious about something...
If you are so confident and certain about KH's guilt, why on earth would you feel the need to attack someone who isn't?
IMVHO Your arguments would be better served by sticking to the known facts of the case and presenting those pieces of information rather attacking others on a personal level just because they disagree with you.

I have never seen a debate won by emotional rants and I never will. You attacked me directly and unfairly and that is personal imo.
IMVHO you also wasted a perfect opportunity to possibly change my mind about the direction of this case.

Take care.

Patricia, 

Well stated and exactly on point, and with all due respect, IMO.  I agree with all that you have said above.  I hope that you stay and continue to post.   
 
[/quote]

Please don't quit posting Patricia. We need to hear your views as well as everyone elses. Please do not let one poster make you leave.

[Tamikosmom]

The key word in the application for the restraining order against Terri was "probable".

LE may have a foundation for suspecting that Terri was involved in a MFH  ...  attempt as well as involved in the disappearing of Kyron but ... considering no arrests have been forthcoming on either account ... there does not appear to be a foundation of evidence to back up the foundation of suspicion.

In other words ... this wannabe detective's hope is fading that LE's silence implies that unrevealed stuff is going on behind the scenes within the investigation.  Too much time is passing.

I am inclined to believe Clint Van Zandt perspective on the issue. 

Janet

+++++

Kaine Horman asks judge to make Terri Moulton Horman move out of his house
Published: Thursday, July 08, 2010, 12:06 PM
Updated: Thursday, July 08, 2010, 6:43 PM

Criminal justice experts said the reference in the restraining order to police having “probable cause” that Kryon’s stepmom is involved in his son’s disappearance and a murder-for-hire plot, doesn’t mean investigators have enough to arrest and prosecute with a conviction.
 
“Without any other supporting evidence and failure to get her to incriminate herself, I would say law enforcement does not have probable cause to make an arrest,” said Clint Van Zandt, a former FBI profiler and Virginia-based security consultant. “The dad might really be saying police have ‘provided me with reason to believe.’ ”

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/07/judge_releases_restraining_ord.html

[Tolerance]

Quote from: pdh3 on July 20, 2010, 04:01:17 AM

"As far as Kaine working out....it has been explained on here about a hundred times, but since you brought it up AGAIN....I will debunk it.[/b].... The gym was the headquarters for donations for the searchers.People stopped by with offers of help. Kaine was there every day checking in to find out what needed to be done to find Kyron. He also worked out to help relieve the stress he was under so that he could clear his mind, and function enough to find his son."

You consider this as debunking?

Very well then.

This is becoming redundant.  I walk a few miles every day because I need the exercise AND I walk even more when there is something stressful going on in my life.  It has become my release outlet.  When I walk and think about my problems, it is easier to be clear headed and work out some things in my mind.  Many people have something they do as a resease outlet.  It appears Kaine's is working out.  Why do we keep dwelling on it?  Everyone is different.... some would sit at home and wring their hands and cry, Kaine goes to the gym and works out his frustration.  JMO

IMO it may be a nice outlet for baby Kiara, too!  I imagine she is comfortable in the daycare there.  I am sure any bit of routine is good for that poor child.
P

[txlisa]

In defense of pdh3, LE is probably biding its time with Terri.  Remember Diane Downs?   It took quite a while for her arrest.  Now could Terri please give up where Kyron is?  It is not like she has anything more left to lose.