Madeleine McCann Missing-Praia Da Luz, Portugal 3/05/07 #1

[festa]

Portuguese judge balks at ordering Madeleine McCann's parents to return for questioning

From Times OnlineSeptember 17, 2007

Portuguese judge balks at ordering Madeleine McCann's parents to return for questioning
(Reuters)
Kate McCann, who gave an interview to a Portuguese magazine today about her life as a mother

David Brown and Steve Bird in Praia da Luz
A judge reviewing the evidence against Kate and Gerry McCann is reported to have refused to order the couple to return to Portugal for further police interviews about the suspected death of their daughter, Madeleine.

Judge Pedro Daniel dos Anjos Frias is said to have asked for the couple, from Rothley, Leicestershire, to be questioned instead by British police about the night their daughter disappeared from her Algarve holiday home.

Leicestershire police will be sent a list of all the questions that the Portuguese authorities want the McCanns to be asked, together with details of the related evidence, according to the Correio da Manhã newspaper.

It is has been claimed that the couple, both 39, will not be questioned again until the Polícia Judiciária has received the results of tests on all the samples collected from the family’s holiday apartment, hire car and other places.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article2473974.ece

[vms]

Someone at the Mirror forum is talking about BIG news that will be coming out tomorrow.  Will be interresting to see what this big news is.

It seems the people on that thread are losing their patience with Hellothere and others posting - last week there was someone that vms and I saw on there also claiming "big news", claimed they were working for some new organization, but not British, and not as a journalist, but that person's name was something like "sieve" I believe - and I haven't been able to find his/her thread to see what their "big news" is/was...

Festa,

I read somewhere (can't remember where now) that the mods had deleted that thread because no source was linked. As if all the other posters there link sources to all their ridiculous claims...

[MuffyBee]

Just my observation but it  there were a lot of leaks.  And some of the newspapers/tabloids are full of stories that are just that:  stories. Not sure how much truth is in them, no matter if they think the McCann's are innocent or had something to do with Madeleine's disappearance.  I also see a very big PR campaign from the McCann's.  (not saying this is wrong-just observation)   There was lot of work and behind the scenes and money involved in this.  I see that there seems to be a way to explain away about anything and everything that is brought up.  I am concerned about some of the lies that were told at the beginning-such as the McCann's stating the children were checked on every 30 min.  and later it was found they weren't.  Or that the room the children were staying in was close and within eyesight of the restaurant and it wasn't.  But because this was reported so many times, many people believe this.  Interviews show it isn't true about the checking on the children every 30 min., with even one of their friends standing outside the apartment door and just listening  And look through this thread and find the maps and drawings that show where the apartment Madeleine and the twins were left in and the restaurant the McCann's and their friends were at.     Not like it was just down the hall or even across the street...I don't know if the McCann's had a hand in their child's disappearance.  I am just commenting on things I've read.
That said, if my child went missing and I was the last to be seen with him/her, I would expect a good, thorough investigation.  I don't think the McCann's got that or are getting that.  I can see there was a LOT of very shoddy work done, if it was done at all on the part of the police.  If the police had done their job properly in the first place, the parents could have at least been ruled out at the beginning.  But now, months later all these questions come up.  And the questions seem to be asked only the first time, months later.  I am thinking of all the valuable possible information that could be lost, because of this.  There might have been some details the McCann's could have given that would have helped the investigation, no matter who might be responsible for Madeleine's disappearance.  Small details that could have yielded clues.  I don't like the way this has been handled at all. 

[Rob]

Carpe will be capturing Anderson Cooper tonight for those who will not be able to see it. It appears this will be a long segment on Maddy.

[MuffyBee]

Carpe will be capturing Anderson Cooper tonight for those who will not be able to see it. It appears this will be a long segment on Maddy.

Thanks for the heads up on that, Rob. 

[Tamikosmom]

Madeleine McCann Cop Quits Case: disgusted at the way parents treated

It has been reported that the official police spokesman in the Madeleine McCann case has now quit, Chief Inspector Olegario Sousa has decided to resign as he was disgusted in the way that the parents of Madeleine, Gerry and Kate McCann have been treated.

Sousa has said that he is upset how information has been leaked to the local press by local police in Portugal; he said that this is designed to undermine the couple.

Martin Brunt the Sky Crime Correspondent said that Olegario was taken off the case, as he is the police spokesman in the case and that case has now moved from the police to the prosecution. But this conflicts with stories that Sousa in fact quit on his own back because the way that things have been leaked to the media.

Yes, the "leaks"

The only problem in regards to the "leaks" which have been released to the "local press" is that readers are put in the no win position of having to determine which of the conflicting reports of the "unnamed" official sources' conflicting reports is to be believed.

The following are two articles by reporter Martin Brunt the Sky Crime Correspondent ... articles that appeared exactly one day apart.  One day Brunt states that there was blood found in the rental vehicle and DNA provided a 99% match to Madeleine McCann and ... the next day there is no blood ... it is body fluids and ... the body fluids provide an 88% match to the little girl.
 
Janet

+++++++++++


SEPTEMBER 10, 2007

'Police Match Madeleine DNA To Hire Car'
Updated: 20:26, Monday September 10, 2007

Portuguese police say they have found firm DNA evidence that the body of Madeleine McCann was in the boot of the family's hire car five weeks after she went missing, sources have told Sky News.

Sky crime correspondent Martin Brunt, speaking from Portimao, said police were "adamant" they had found the most "damning" evidence yet implicating either one or both of the McCanns in their daughter's death.

The evidence came in blood samples returned from the Forensic Science Service in Birmingham.

"Police say it is the most damning evidence that has been returned by the tests," Brunt said.

"It shows, as far as they are concerned, the presence of Madeleine's body in the car five weeks after she disappeared."

He continued: "The evidence suggests very strongly that it was not that her DNA had been transferred from clothing or from a cuddly toy.

"The allegation is that the DNA shows a full match of 99%. According to police, it shows the presence of Madeleine's body in the boot of the family's hire car five weeks after she disappeared."

He said the sample of blood sent to the Forensic Science Service in Birmingham carried three matches of Madeleine's DNA.

Two were partial matches that came from the car and the windowsill of the family's holiday apartment.

The third was the full match from the boot of the car.


SEPTEMBER 11, 2007

Bodily Fluids - Not Blood - In McCann Car
Updated: 15:28, Tuesday September 11, 2007

Bodily fluids - not blood - matching Madeleine McCann's DNA have been found in the car hired by her parents, according to sources, cited by Sky News.

The sample was taken from the boot, where the spare tyre is kept.

It had an 88% match with the missing four-year-old's DNA, sources said.

Police searching the car also found so much of Madeleine's hair that it could not have been transferred from a blanket or clothes.

It must have come directly from her body, sources said.

The news comes as Portuguese prosecutors received all of the files of evidence on the McCanns from police investigating the four-year-old's disappearance.
 
The prosecutors are now expected to review reports of three samples of Madeleine's DNA found by detectives.

Madeleine went missing on May 3They will then decide whether to charge the McCanns with an offence.

Sky sources earlier said a full DNA match to Madeleine was found in the boot of a car hired by Kate and Gerry McCann after their daughter went missing.

"Police say it is the most damning evidence that has been returned by the tests," Sky's Crime Correspondent Martin Brunt said.

[Tamikosmom]

Good Morning VMS ... my friendly rival in hope that justice prevails for Madeleine McCann.

I find it ironic ... you and I ... for the most part ... are on the same mindset regarding the corrupt investigation in Aruba that is denying Natalee Holloway justice in an attempt to protect their own but ... in the case of this precious English child who went missing on Porteguese soil ...

VMS ... I hope you have a good day.

 

Janet

[festa]

Madeleine: Hair in McCann Renault: 'It could be anyone's'
By IAN GALLAGHER and PATRICK SAWER - More by this author »
 
Last updated at 00:00am on 16th September 2007
 
 Comments (2)

Hair found in the car hired by Madeleine McCann's parents cannot be matched to the missing four-year-old, it was revealed last night.


British forensic experts have concluded the fragments said to be Madeleine's could belong to any number of people who had come into contact with the silver Renault Scenic.
This demolishes earlier claims that the hairs would prove the McCanns had hidden Madeleine's body in the car after killing her in their holiday apartment.

The fragments found did not even allow the scientists to establish the sex or age of the individual.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=482049&in_page_id=1770

[Helen Back]

Madeleine McCann Cop Quits Case: disgusted at the way parents treated

It has been reported that the official police spokesman in the Madeleine McCann case has now quit, Chief Inspector Olegario Sousa has decided to resign as he was disgusted in the way that the parents of Madeleine, Gerry and Kate McCann have been treated.

Sousa has said that he is upset how information has been leaked to the local press by local police in Portugal; he said that this is designed to undermine the couple.

Martin Brunt the Sky Crime Correspondent said that Olegario was taken off the case, as he is the police spokesman in the case and that case has now moved from the police to the prosecution. But this conflicts with stories that Sousa in fact quit on his own back because the way that things have been leaked to the media.

Yes, the "leaks"

The only problem in regards to the "leaks" which have been released to the "local press" is that readers are put in the no win position of having to determine which of the conflicting reports of the "unnamed" official sources' conflicting reports is to be believed.

The following are two articles by reporter Martin Brunt the Sky Crime Correspondent ... articles that appeared exactly one day apart.  One day Brunt states that there was blood found in the rental vehicle and DNA provided a 99% match to Madeleine McCann and ... the next day there is no blood ... it is body fluids and ... the body fluids provide an 88% match to the little girl.
 
Janet

+++++++++++


SEPTEMBER 10, 2007

'Police Match Madeleine DNA To Hire Car'
Updated: 20:26, Monday September 10, 2007

Portuguese police say they have found firm DNA evidence that the body of Madeleine McCann was in the boot of the family's hire car five weeks after she went missing, sources have told Sky News.

Sky crime correspondent Martin Brunt, speaking from Portimao, said police were "adamant" they had found the most "damning" evidence yet implicating either one or both of the McCanns in their daughter's death.

The evidence came in blood samples returned from the Forensic Science Service in Birmingham.

"Police say it is the most damning evidence that has been returned by the tests," Brunt said.

"It shows, as far as they are concerned, the presence of Madeleine's body in the car five weeks after she disappeared."

He continued: "The evidence suggests very strongly that it was not that her DNA had been transferred from clothing or from a cuddly toy.

"The allegation is that the DNA shows a full match of 99%. According to police, it shows the presence of Madeleine's body in the boot of the family's hire car five weeks after she disappeared."

He said the sample of blood sent to the Forensic Science Service in Birmingham carried three matches of Madeleine's DNA.

Two were partial matches that came from the car and the windowsill of the family's holiday apartment.

The third was the full match from the boot of the car.


SEPTEMBER 11, 2007

Bodily Fluids - Not Blood - In McCann Car
Updated: 15:28, Tuesday September 11, 2007

Bodily fluids - not blood - matching Madeleine McCann's DNA have been found in the car hired by her parents, according to sources, cited by Sky News.

The sample was taken from the boot, where the spare tyre is kept.

It had an 88% match with the missing four-year-old's DNA, sources said.

Police searching the car also found so much of Madeleine's hair that it could not have been transferred from a blanket or clothes.

It must have come directly from her body, sources said.

The news comes as Portuguese prosecutors received all of the files of evidence on the McCanns from police investigating the four-year-old's disappearance.
 
The prosecutors are now expected to review reports of three samples of Madeleine's DNA found by detectives.

Madeleine went missing on May 3They will then decide whether to charge the McCanns with an offence.

Sky sources earlier said a full DNA match to Madeleine was found in the boot of a car hired by Kate and Gerry McCann after their daughter went missing.

"Police say it is the most damning evidence that has been returned by the tests," Sky's Crime Correspondent Martin Brunt said.

The "leaks" about DNA that has been collected being a "match" to Madeleine's DNA.............Once again, I must ask.  What are they "matching" it to?[/b]  Does someone have a DNA profile from prior testing done on Madeleine?  Is there a refrigerated or frozen blood, fluid or tissue specimen known to have been collected from Madeleine in the past and stored in a laboratory somewhere?  If not, what are the police "matching" the samples to?

I find the language regarding these "DNA collections" to be curious from a scientific standpoint.  IF there are no "known samples" or a profile of Madeleine's DNA somewhere, then we should be talking about probabilities, not a "match".

I'm just sayin................

[festa]

So if that article I posted above is to be believed (and I say that because news seems to change to a degree on a case every hour) then they never had a 88% match????!!!!!  Then what they are basing their allegations on regarding Mrs. McCann are her diaries - what are really up to interpretation, unless she blatantly admitted foul play in them, which I doubt - but I'll wait to see more...

[festa]

This is more from that same article, AND again, this is unsubstantiated, from "sources":

Sources have told The Mail on Sunday that the hairs discovered in the vehicle hired by Kate and Gerry McCann after she disappeared were found in only very small quantities on the seats - and not in the boot as was previously reported.

Additionally no roots were found in the samples, which meant that experts at the Forensic Science Service in Birmingham were unable to test for a DNA match to any individuals.

"They were only asked to try to determine sex and age. It was simply not possible to determine whether the hairs belonged to Madeleine," said a source.

It has also been reported that police had found 'bodily fluids' - but not blood - in the car with an 88 per cent match to Madeleine's genetic profile.

That fuelled speculation that the little girl had been killed, possibly after being given an accidental overdose of sedatives, and her body hidden before being transported in the boot of the vehicle.


The McCanns hired the Renault from Budget 24 days after Maddie vanished on May 3.

Portuguese police have become suspicious about the number of miles on the car's mileometer.

In the seven days between May 27 - when the Renault Scenic was first rented in Portimao - and June 3 when the McCanns' first contract lapsed, the car travelled 450 miles.

The couple pointed out to investigators that the car did many runs to Faro airport, 55 miles away. They emphasised that they flew to Rome to meet the Pope on May 29, returning the next day, and that they then departed for Madrid on May 31.

They also told police that friends and family had access to the car while they were away - and that it was used to ferry relatives to and from Faro.

But despite what the McCanns have presented as an innocent explanation behind the distances, Portuguese police have asked Budget to provide all details of the vehicle's mileage.

The Mail on Sunday has learned that those records show that between June 3 and July 3, the car travelled a further 1,256 miles.

Further trips to airports in Lisbon and Faro to pick up relatives and deposit the McCanns for a trip to Germany have been presented as a justification for the high mileage.

However, according to a source, the police have not been satisfied with the explanations.

---

I didn't know that the police were suspicious about the amount of miles put on the rental car -

[klaasend]

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/pressass/20070917/tuk-i-trust-mccanns-says-sir-richard-6323e80_1.html

I trust McCanns. says Sir Richard

Press Assoc. - 2 hours 25 minutes agoMulti millionaire Sir Richard Branson said he would be donating £100,000 to the McCanns' legal costs because he "trusted them implicitly" and wanted to ensure they had a fair trial if they were brought before a Portuguese court.


Sir Richard, who has spoken to the parents of missing Madeleine McCann on several occasions, said: "I wouldn't have got involved if I didn't feel good about them. I trust them implicitly and I can't think of anyone I know who's had a worse time."

Explaining his decision, the entrepreneur and social campaigner, said: "I think they need proper representation and support."

He added: "I want to make sure they have the chance for their side of the story to be fairly told if they ever go to court, particularly in Portugal where they've already been tried by innuendo in the media.

"It's going to be tough for them to get a fair trial and they need all the help they can get."

Sir Richard confirmed he was in talks with other wealthy people to encourage them to contribute to a legal fund as well, and said at least one other anonymous donor was signed up already.

"I'm speaking to several people and hopefully there'll be others helping with the legal costs," he said. "One or two have already committed on an off-the-record basis."

Meanwhile, Kate McCann could be reinterviewed this week by British police acting on behalf of the Portuguese authorities, fresh reports suggest.

Kate and Gerry McCann's lawyers issued a statement saying they had received no request for new questioning "to date".

But for a third day, Portuguese newspapers reported that police and prosecutors in the Algarve planned to ask their British counterparts to quiz Mrs McCann for them.

[vms]

Good Morning VMS ... my friendly rival in hope that justice prevails for Madeleine McCann.

I find it ironic ... you and I ... for the most part ... are on the same mindset regarding the corrupt investigation in Aruba that is denying Natalee Holloway justice in an attempt to protect their own but ... in the case of this precious English child who went missing on Porteguese soil ...

VMS ... I hope you have a good day.

 

Janet

You too, Janet.
Justice is the key, not what I want the outcome to be. I will accept the truth and settle for no less.
I believe we both hope for that. I think we are really on the same page.  

[Tamikosmom]

The "leaks" about DNA that has been collected being a "match" to Madeleine's DNA.............Once again, I must ask.  What are they "matching" it to?[/b]  Does someone have a DNA profile from prior testing done on Madeleine?  Is there a refrigerated or frozen blood, fluid or tissue specimen known to have been collected from Madeleine in the past and stored in a laboratory somewhere?  If not, what are the police "matching" the samples to?

I find the language regarding these "DNA collections" to be curious from a scientific standpoint.  IF there are no "known samples" or a profile of Madeleine's DNA somewhere, then we should be talking about probabilities, not a "match".

I'm just sayin................

Helen ... Madeleine's DNA could have been obtained from any of her belongings ... toothbrush ... brush ... toys, etc.

However ... the "sources" which these publications are accrediting their reports are not remaining consistent in regards to the "leaked" information.

1. Blood ... no blood ... is found in the rental vehicle.
2. Wiretaps imply ... do not imply ... guilt.
3. DNA matches ... does not match ... Madeleine's genetic profile.
4. Friend/s lied ... did not lie ... regarding events encompassing the evening that Maddie was allegedly abducted.
5.  Friend/s are suspected ... not suspected ... in assisting the McCanns in a coverup following an unfortunate incident.
6.  The McCanns are ... are not ... being framed.
7. ...

Bottom line ... if the reports in these various publications are "leaks" coming from source/s within the investigation ... obviously the source/s cannot be considered reliable.

The foundation of my speculation in the Madeleine McCann case comprises credible sources associated with the investigation that are identified by name.

Janet

[Puzzler]

I guess we can't go by anything we're hearing at this point, except for that the Portuguese police don't report on what the facts are during an investigation. 

Are the "leaks" really "leaks" from anyone at the police department?  How could we know that? Just because some reporter says he has a "source". 

Are the comments from the McCann's or their family members or friends to be believed?  Probably most of what they say....but, also, I'm sure that they will put the best spin on it that they can (I would too if it was my friend involved).

So...is there anything that we really know for a fact....other than Madeleine has been missing since May 3, 2007?

[vms]

Monday, 17 September 2007
Olegário de Sousa: “Mr Martin Brunt story about my alleged resignation is completely false”

Chief Inspector Olegario Sousa is said to have quit in disgust at the way the missing girl's parents have been treated, according to Martin Brunt, from Sky News. Chief-Inspector Olegário de Sousa denies those allegations: “Mr. Martin Brunt's story, once again, is completely false. The last time I talked with Mr. Martin Brunt was on September 11, the day when Mr. Martin Brunt had another utterly false story, about a 100% DNA match being found, by Police, on the McCann's hired car. On that day, before he put that false story on the air, we talked, around 7.00 pm, and he didn't asked me any question about DNA, that subject wasn't even mentioned,” Olegário de Sousa told us, a few minutes ago. (14h54, September 17, 2007)
Link

[Puzzler]

I'm sorry.....I think I'm just frustrated on the news reports.
They spin 2 or 3 days toward bodily fluids in the trunk of the car being a match to Madeleine and now that's been turned around; then they spend several days talking about a mass of hair that is a match and indicates drug sedation over a period of time to little pieces of hair that are not a match and reveal nothing.


I'm wondering if most of it is just a mixture of reporters wanting to get a story out and the McCann's PR campaign.  Maybe 10% truth stuck in there somewhere.

[Puzzler]

Case in point:  For the past several days, it's been reported that Chief Inspector Olegario Sousa quit the case in "disgust over how Madeleine's parents have been treated".  Today...it's reported that Sousa said that is not true.

I rest my case....

[Tamikosmom]

I guess we can't go by anything we're hearing at this point, except for that the Portuguese police don't report on what the facts are during an investigation. 

Are the "leaks" really "leaks" from anyone at the police department?  How could we know that? Just because some reporter says he has a "source". 

Are the comments from the McCann's or their family members or friends to be believed?  Probably most of what they say....but, also, I'm sure that they will put the best spin on it that they can (I would too if it was my friend involved).

So...is there anything that we really know for a fact....other than Madeleine has been missing since May 3, 2007?

Puzzler ... we also know that ... according to "named" spokepersons for invesigation ... Robert Murat was declared a formal suspect and ... the McCanns were declared formal suspects.  However ... the McCanns' current suspect status implies that it was determined by the PLE that there was enough enough to present their respective files to the prosecutor and .. the prosecutor determined there was enough evidence to present their respective files to a judge ... a judge who will determine if the evidence justified the pressing of charges.

Janet

+++++++++++++++++


http://www.guardian.co.uk/crime/article/0,,2167166,00.html

McCann papers go to judge amid claims and confusion over DNA
September 12, 2007

The attorney general, Henrique Pinto Monteiro, who oversees the prosecutor's office, said officials would examine police findings and announce within 10 days what further steps were to be taken. "The investigation...is not over, and further detective work is required," he said.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6989960.stm

McCann files to be given to judge
September 11, 2007

Speaking outside the prosecutor's office in Portimao on Tuesday, assistant Luisa Duarte said Mr Cunha de Magalhaes had received the papers and decided they should go before an instructional judge.

[vms]

PJ spokesman back to normal police duties

<<snipped>>


Olegário Sousa faced many difficult moments during his time as PR for the Madeleine investigators, declining to comment officially on numerous occasions about articles published in the press, particularly the Portuguese-language media.

The reason is now clearer, as it is understood he was kept away from the more sensitive information of the case throughout to ensure nothing was said to the press.

This was said to be a strategic decision by the investigators, so that no official statement could compromise the investigation.

It is also understood that he is very critical about the systematic violation of the secrecy of justice rules that prohibit official comment, in the form of leaks to the media.

Link