Natalee Case Discussion #778 11/23/08 - 11/24/08

[Keepthefaith]

Hotshot - give the holier than thou[/u] a rest already - everyone knows what a stealth operator you are - especially me, as you worked with Gerold Dompig to gather files and names.

Is this "TRUE" Hotshot?Did you work for Dompig?Yes or No?

Do you know of this as well Kermit??

Did you catch this question kermit??

[Frijole]

A little levity and a true story while we wait for Greta and any other news that hits today....

I had never been on a forum before Natalee's case... stumbled upon them thanks to Google... so I was pretty amazed and intimidated at first.  Probably took me 6 mos to post. 

One day I was perusing the Shango thread and I threw out an idea... took guts for me to do that.  All of a sudden I got my first PM.  I didn't even know what one was.    Scared the bejesus out of me.  I was like... who is writing to ME?  I don't know anyone...

Sure nuff... it was BestBuddy telling me to shut up!  Said there were enemies lurking and I would give them ideas or some such crap. 

Some have contributed because they care about justice first.  Some... well... some like attention. 

[Blonde]

What i don't understand
They found the Cage 30/12/2007

And the next search is  on 01-07/2008  ? With only Aruban divers ?
Was they cage locked in the meantime ?
Why did they wait 8 days ?
Was that mos's decicion ?

Remember their is no lock on the cage it is open on one side. They made Tim leave and others,then went down collected evidence and ROV took pictures.

[Kermit]

Hotshot - how do you feel about Kyle?  I know nothing about John Silvetti or Louis Schaeffer but I do know that Kyle said the guy in the red shirt is not Silvetti.  Looks to me like it is Silvetti.  I'm wondering why the discrepancy.

Klaas, I feel Kyle knows what he is doing, and he is a very smart guy.  What ever was done, had to be for a good reason.  I also know that he didnt follow the case for 3+ years like many of us had.  So he may have been Naive in areas, I dont know.  He did seem to know of the dangers of being out there.  I currently have the picture going to someone who can identify the man in the red shirt.  I will get back to you when I get that answer.  Hopefully tonight.  I do have a meeting to go to, then get back here in time for Greta.  then I will come back online.  I hope all doesn't fall apart by then....

Look for one day just stop behaving like a nutball.

KYLE TRIED TO SELL THOSE PHOTOS
and Louis Schafer has sold it to a documentary.
If you think for one minute that Kyle was helping the family by not putting the photos on the interenet, then you better click on the pictures and realize it is HIS link to HIS flicker account and HE was shopping the pictures around for MONEY.

[SS]

I have some feelings about the photographs and I wonder if others feel the same way that I do.  If Louis, John, and Kyle had hidden those photographs from ALE so that they could be turned over to Beth, Dave, and US authorities, it would have been a dishonest action, but it would have been in the best interests of everyone.  ALE has been so despicable from day one, and under handed handling of evidence would have been a double standard, but I would have supported it and jumped up and down with cheers.  Unfortunately, that isn't what happened.  The evidence was hidden from Beth, Dave, and the American public and the photographs were never even given to the FBI by members of the Persistence group.  When I hear that there is even a remote possibility that Louis Schafer sold those photographs for big bucks and that Kyle attempted to sell the photographs to networks last February, I just want to scream.  These actions are beyond explanation or justification.

I wish Kyle would respond to these allegations.

Thanks SS.

Janet

Dinners over... I ate my crow and it didn't very good at all.  I am so sorry for going at you.  I was so convinced that everything and everyone involved with Perisistence were above reproach.

[Blonde]

What i don't understand
They found the Cage 30/12/2007

And the next search is  on 01-07/2008  ? With only Aruban divers ?
Was they cage locked in the meantime ?
Why did they wait 8 days ?
Was that mos's decicion ?

They had to get Tim Miller off the ship.

Yes they did, he wouldn't have not let this go.

[Kermit]

Hotshot - give the holier than thou[/u] a rest already - everyone knows what a stealth operator you are - especially me, as you worked with Gerold Dompig to gather files and names.

Is this "TRUE" Hotshot?Did you work for Dompig?Yes or No?

Do you know of this as well Kermit??

Did you catch this question kermit??

What I know is: I gave a very detailed document that was given to Kathy & Clauseens (aka bestbuddy) when they went to Aruba. I later learned that it was turned over to DOMPIG. I thought it was Dave who turned it to Dompig. My gosh, it had so much information in that it isn't funny.

Rob, may know more then I do about that.

[Kermit]

Kermit ... why would Kyle share all this incriminating explosive information with you?

If these allegations are confirmed ... it is such a betrayal to all who sacrificially donated their time, effort and monies are behalf of the Persistence's search for Natalee Holloway.

Janet

He wanted to contact Beth and he came to me to do that.

[Blonde]

I have some feelings about the photographs and I wonder if others feel the same way that I do.  If Louis, John, and Kyle had hidden those photographs from ALE so that they could be turned over to Beth, Dave, and US authorities, it would have been a dishonest action, but it would have been in the best interests of everyone.  ALE has been so despicable from day one, and under handed handling of evidence would have been a double standard, but I would have supported it and jumped up and down with cheers.  Unfortunately, that isn't what happened.  The evidence was hidden from Beth, Dave, and the American public and the photographs were never even given to the FBI by members of the Persistence group.  When I hear that there is even a remote possibility that Louis Schafer sold those photographs for big bucks and that Kyle attempted to sell the photographs to networks last February, I just want to scream.  These actions are beyond explanation or justification.

That must be why Kermit was saying American Traitor Benedict Arnold
 we just didn't understand.

[AZSunny]

What i don't understand
They found the Cage 30/12/2007

And the next search is  on 01-07/2008  ? With only Aruban divers ?
Was they cage locked in the meantime ?
Why did they wait 8 days ?
Was that mos's decicion ?

They had to get Tim Miller off the ship.

Yes they did, he wouldn't have not let this go.

And has Tim seen these pictures?  I would love to hear his reaction.  He was so sure, and he was right.

[Keepthefaith]

Hotshot - give the holier than thou[/u] a rest already - everyone knows what a stealth operator you are - especially me, as you worked with Gerold Dompig to gather files and names.

Is this "TRUE" Hotshot?Did you work for Dompig?Yes or No?

Do you know of this as well Kermit??

Did you catch this question kermit??

What I know is: I gave a very detailed document that was given to Kathy & Clauseens (aka bestbuddy) when they went to Aruba. I later learned that it was turned over to DOMPIG. I thought it was Dave who turned it to Dompig. My gosh, it had so much information in that it isn't funny.

Rob, may know more then I do about that.

Thanx Kermit!

[Buckeye]

FBI report came out end of Feb.  Maybe Persistence wondered where the rest of the sample report was...got upset that FBI said that's all they got...so Persistence packed up and left...just thinking...

Maybe they wanted the problem exposed by MSM???  So looking for documentary???

OK, I know I'm stretching it.  Kyle had a link to another of his sites.  He does come across as very religious...so I am surprised.

Pita, vms or Klaas or anyone:

Does anyone have a good pic of Olindo Koolman, old Aruban governor and honred rep of AHATA and Task Force??  Was trying to figure out who else would be on board.  TIA

[SS]

Kermit -

Are we correct with the identity of Red Shirt?

How do Beth and Dave feel about what has happened with the photographs and the evidence.  They must be devastated.  Those are the remains of their daughter and they still don't have them.

[Kermit]

This all sounds great, but I have some lingering questions, in bold and blue below.

Did I understand Kermit to say that it was not Kyle that turned any of the 6 pictures over to the FBI that were sent by the FBI to Robin?  If not who?  If it were Silvetti, why would he turn over just a portion of the pictues,  and why would he not turn over the tapes and anything else he had acquired.  The log book?  Why??

Kyle sent those 6 pictures to the FBI, Dave asked him for them. He didn't give them to him. The FBI did, then Robin posted them on her webiste and then Kyle accused Red of posting them on SM and they had an argument.

1 - Shaefer sold the rights to these images for BIG BUCKS

What images?  The mapping?  The cage?  Who bought them and for how much?  How does one know this?  Where is it documented, was someone bragging?

What was his motivation for selling them?
 
2 - Kyle tried to sell the rights to those images to major US networks in Feb 2008

What images?  The mapping?  The cage?  Who did he offer them to?  Wasn't he concerned with copyright?  How does one know this?  Where is it documented?  Was he successful, and if so, who bought them and for how much?

What was his motivation for selling them?
 
3 - John Silvetti had plans to open an office on Aruba this past spring.

How does one know this?  Real estate agents?  Gossip?  ALE / media following him around?  Did he open that office?  If not, why not?  Why would he want to open an office in Aruba? 

If not an office, maybe he was looking for a retirement property?
 
4 - John Silvetti  discounted anything and everything about that fish trap - before anyone even dove on it.

I'm not tracking with this one at all.  Not to be a pain, please explain, maybe there are some examples.  Didn't John Silvetti have a model of the fish trap built to scan?  Thus ensure a better model for the radar readings?  What would his motivation be?  Where does this piece of information come from? 
 
5 - Louis Shaefer reorganized his company in JANUARY 2008 - coincidental timing?  Doubtful.

I think there are some news articles that suggest the company had problems earlier in 2007.  Isn't it possible this would have happened without anyone going to Aruba?  It seems like a lot of companies have been having problems.  What would be the motivation for ANY reorganization?  This January 2008 reorg?
 
6 - Kyle wanted help to get this info to Beth and to the public.  Then he stalled, lied, threatened, to stop that from happening.

What is Kyles motivation for getting it out to Beth and the public?  How would anyone know that he didn't?  What would his motivation for stalling, lies, threatening be?  Why? 

Isn't it possible that Kyle wasn't kept in the loop?  Isn't it possible that he didn't/doesn't know everyones motivation?  Maybe he made some guesses?
 
7 - This information was sent to:  Beth, JQK and the FBI by NO ONE connected to the Persistence search.  EVER.

How does anyone know this for certain?  And, be certain that it may be information kept under lock and key for a reason?  Motivation?
 
THEY ALL KEPT THIS INFORMATION FROM NATALEE'S FAMILY, AND FROM THE FBI
 
WHY?

Why indeed?  How can it be that all of these people are ignorant?

I'd like a few more validations of any facts before I make up my mind.

just my humble opinions 

I have it documented of Kyle trying to sell the images to the network producers.
Kyle told me that Louis Schafer was making money of the documentary about Natalee.
If you believe the information was kept under lock and key, then answer the question why would Kyle be out trying to sell the images? See it doesn't add up.
I can only surmise Kyles motivation to make money off of the images and that is so that he would have money and not worry about John Silvetti cutting him off. Afterall, John is his boss.

As for Louis Schafer, he sold off his shares of stock in his company making millions of dollars. Then he resigned from the company leaving the stock holders holding the defunct company. THEN he went and bought himself a Charter boat business - it was some family guy's business and he thought selling to Schafer would help his business. Schafer filed bankruptcy on that poor guys family business.

Just go read the litigation against Schafer and see what you think of his business dealings and how the stockholders have a class action lawsuit against him.

He needed MONEY is what I think. So he kept the information and they tried to strike deals.

[Blue Moon]

I am so disappointed that people who claim to be for Natalee, Beth and Dave have gone to such an extreme to discredit the search for Natalee Holloway.  For one, John Silvetti is an honerable man and has a history of integrity.  Tim also.  These posts being thrown at him show a disparagable attempt to discredit not only John, but to bring forth unnecessary pain for people who truly love Natalee.  It wouldn't surprise me if these attempts to discredit have come from the same people who have used the internet to spread lies about Natalee, Beth or Dave's character.  It has already been proven that several misinformed postings have originated in Aruba as early as three days after Natalee went missing.  I know Kermit.  I know that recently her postings have been out of character.  I also know she has recently been laid off from her newspaper position.  I wish her luck in the future and I hope everyone remains patient with her thru this difficult time.  I got this from BestBuddy. 

This is a very unfair post Hotshot. You are entitled to your opinions, though I think at this point you are choosing to overlook some important new information. But you have revealed at least 3 personal facts regarding Kermit and I am sure had someone done this to you would would really be HOT! It was wrong. From what I have seen from you in the past, while your intentions may be good, your judgement is not.

I think this all goes back to who knows what about this case.  Reporting it online on a public blog is not the wisest thing to do.  If you cannot tell it then keep it to yourself.  At least Kermit (or Miss Piggy it seems now) had the GUTS to spill what they know for the good of the family.  For that I salute Kermit.   

[Kermit]

Kermit -

Are we correct with the identity of Red Shirt?

How do Beth and Dave feel about what has happened with the photographs and the evidence.  They must be devastated.  Those are the remains of their daughter and they still don't have them.

It looks like Silvetti to me too.

I can't comment on how the family feels.
I know I would be devastated.

[Kermit]

I am so disappointed that people who claim to be for Natalee, Beth and Dave have gone to such an extreme to discredit the search for Natalee Holloway.  For one, John Silvetti is an honerable man and has a history of integrity.  Tim also.  These posts being thrown at him show a disparagable attempt to discredit not only John, but to bring forth unnecessary pain for people who truly love Natalee.  It wouldn't surprise me if these attempts to discredit have come from the same people who have used the internet to spread lies about Natalee, Beth or Dave's character.  It has already been proven that several misinformed postings have originated in Aruba as early as three days after Natalee went missing.  I know Kermit.  I know that recently her postings have been out of character.  I also know she has recently been laid off from her newspaper position.  I wish her luck in the future and I hope everyone remains patient with her thru this difficult time.  I got this from BestBuddy. 

This is a very unfair post Hotshot. You are entitled to your opinions, though I think at this point you are choosing to overlook some important new information. But you have revealed at least 3 personal facts regarding Kermit and I am sure had someone done this to you would would really be HOT! It was wrong. From what I have seen from you in the past, while your intentions may be good, your judgement is not.

I think this all goes back to who knows what about this case.  Reporting it online on a public blog is not the wisest thing to do.  If you cannot tell it then keep it to yourself.  At least Kermit (or Miss Piggy it seems now) had the GUTS to spill what they know for the good of the family.  For that I salute Kermit.   

Thank you.

[Tamikosmom]

If the crew of the Persistence set out on a venture to search on their own for the remains of Natalee Holloway and ... profit was the incentive and ... there was no donations solicited ... I would not have a problem with what they did in regards to the images taken of the contents of that cage.  The photos would be the property of the searchers while ... the cage and the contents would be turned over to ALE/

After all ... it would have been their time, money and effort that was invested and ... there was the risk that nothing would be recovered.

However ... that was not the case.  Once funds were solicited to cover the expense of the undertaking ... the owner/crew had a responsibility to donors and ... the family of Natalee Holloway to expose the fruits of their labor in the furthering of justice.

I am sooo troubled.  I wish Kyle would respond.

Janet

[blah]

7.5 x 7.5 x 2.5 FEET

Thank you Magnolia, and Klaas.

SO measured out is 140.6 SQUARE FEET.  A big trap, commercial in use.

IIRC, Gottenbos Sea Pro sports beam of 8.0 feet.  But this is measured from the exterior edges of the boat hull, effective interior beam would be approx 7.0 ft or less.  The trap could have been ounted on the gunwales, though extremely awkward.  Would explain placement on the lee side of the island, out of the oceanic waves and wind, as boat that size, with that cargo, would have a difficult passage.

Compare cage dimensions to Natalee physical size: 5ft 4in.  See what you think.

I think the aerial shot of Aruba, looking at water depth is far too close to shore.  For 90 feet of depth, likely nearly a mile off.

.

Cubic feet

[Kermit]

I have some feelings about the photographs and I wonder if others feel the same way that I do.  If Louis, John, and Kyle had hidden those photographs from ALE so that they could be turned over to Beth, Dave, and US authorities, it would have been a dishonest action, but it would have been in the best interests of everyone.  ALE has been so despicable from day one, and under handed handling of evidence would have been a double standard, but I would have supported it and jumped up and down with cheers.  Unfortunately, that isn't what happened.  The evidence was hidden from Beth, Dave, and the American public and the photographs were never even given to the FBI by members of the Persistence group.  When I hear that there is even a remote possibility that Louis Schafer sold those photographs for big bucks and that Kyle attempted to sell the photographs to networks last February, I just want to scream.  These actions are beyond explanation or justification.

That must be why Kermit was saying American Traitor Benedict Arnold
 we just didn't understand.

Yes. Knowing what I knew, waiting for him to do the right thing, I personally could not withhold the information that exposed that Aruba did nothing and that is a cover-up. As well as the fact that Kyle and Schafer were trying to sell the images and also that Silvetti was/is trying to set up an office in Aruba. To me, that is a traitor!