Lively Case Discussion #543 11/14 - 11/15/2006

[AZLady]

Lala's, I can't help but think Satish's gun was used to inflict wounds upon her.  These could not be covered up or disguised.  Maybe this is the hold that the van der Sloot's have on the Kalpoe brothers.  It was Satish's gun.

I'm guessing no one knows the answer, but was that gun confiscated?

   Try this:
What if Satish couldn't do it - shoot someone - and Joran grabbed the gun and shot Natalee? (Because if Satish had shot Natalee, we wouldn't be here. It would all have been over in June 2005.)

Onward. That would be a gun with J's fingerprints, a gunshot wound, and maybe an embedded bullet.

In that event, there is literally a smoking gun out there that could be found someday. It could be under Satish's mattress, or on the floor of the Caribbean - but it could turn up.

Would make for some tense moments in the VDS lives.

I have to admit that this was literally a light bulb that just went off. Haven't really thought it through.

Oh - and thanks AZLady re. the M&C thread. Input from many Monkeys on that one.

Humm, why a gun?

Did it have a silencer?

I don't know.  But I do know that Satish brought up the gun right at the end of the conversation in the polis car.  This is not just idle chatter, but it means something significant to this case.

[Ono]

Ono - You could be right.  I don't feel strongly enough to banter with you about it.  I just was suggesting the possibility, but you are probably right.

I don't want to banter either...we don't know. But I have had the sneaky, creepy feeling from the beginning that whatever it was that Natalee inadvertantly fell into that evening without her knowledge was serious crime stuff and there would be no "normal" negotiation to any future resolution. Whatever it is that "they" are hiding on that crime-infested island,  Natalee was just an irritating attention getter that "they" had never counted upon. I shudder to think what really must go on behind the scenes of Aruba on a day to day basis.  I'm thinking that Joran and his band of pirates has brought on way too much attention now.  We have also witnessed the sophisticated level of coverup...equate the coverup modus operandi with what must be under the surface. Lotta doo doo.

Ono: I agree with you 100%. They, meaning, as you put it so well, that "crime -infested island" couldn't stand the attention. And, IMO I think one or more of those illegal interests has been essentially shut down, for now. Possibly re-located???

Shut down or re-located?...There's no telling, probably too soon for big time re-location...but what is for damned sure is that we have certainly heard the "screaming and bellowing" from "their"  water carriers on other forums, so evidently, nerves have been struck.....Little did anyone know a year and a half ago just what had been going on under the surface of Aruba. It blows the mind when one thinks of the travel hype. They must have laughed themselves all the way to the bank daily.

[nonesuche]

Klaas-

I vote yes too.

[Carnut]

Msmarples and Anna - do you guys think I should move the Murder and Crime thread into the Important Case Document forum?

Yes.

San says YES, anyone else?

For what it's worth, I'll say YES as well.

[San]

Lala's, I can't help but think Satish's gun was used to inflict wounds upon her.  These could not be covered up or disguised.  Maybe this is the hold that the van der Sloot's have on the Kalpoe brothers.  It was Satish's gun.

I'm guessing no one knows the answer, but was that gun confiscated?

   Try this:
What if Satish couldn't do it - shoot someone - and Joran grabbed the gun and shot Natalee? (Because if Satish had shot Natalee, we wouldn't be here. It would all have been over in June 2005.)

Onward. That would be a gun with J's fingerprints, a gunshot wound, and maybe an embedded bullet.

In that event, there is literally a smoking gun out there that could be found someday. It could be under Satish's mattress, or on the floor of the Caribbean - but it could turn up.

Would make for some tense moments in the VDS lives.

I have to admit that this was literally a light bulb that just went off. Haven't really thought it through.

Oh - and thanks AZLady re. the M&C thread. Input from many Monkeys on that one.

We discussed this a couple of months ago and I too believe she could have been shot.  I also agree the person who would have the nerve to do it would be Joran.  They mentioned the gun in the police car conversation.  Satish mentioneds they looked for it and nothing was found.  Could someone be holding this gun for the Kalpoes because it gives them leverage with Joran.

[AZLady]

Msmarples and Anna - do you guys think I should move the Murder and Crime thread into the Important Case Document forum?

Yes.

San says YES, anyone else?

I say YES, also.  I think it needs to be where people looking for the facts can find it.

[klaasend]

Msmarple - do you say YES as well?  

[Carnut]

I don't know.  But I do know that Satish brought up the gun right at the end of the conversation in the polis car.  This is not just idle chatter, but it means something significant to this case.

Sorry, I think it's just a simple threat that JVDS knows something illegal that can be held against Satish, to help keep the Bros Kalpoe towing the line.

[AZLady]

Lala's, I can't help but think Satish's gun was used to inflict wounds upon her.  These could not be covered up or disguised.  Maybe this is the hold that the van der Sloot's have on the Kalpoe brothers.  It was Satish's gun.

I'm guessing no one knows the answer, but was that gun confiscated?

   Try this:
What if Satish couldn't do it - shoot someone - and Joran grabbed the gun and shot Natalee? (Because if Satish had shot Natalee, we wouldn't be here. It would all have been over in June 2005.)

Onward. That would be a gun with J's fingerprints, a gunshot wound, and maybe an embedded bullet.

In that event, there is literally a smoking gun out there that could be found someday. It could be under Satish's mattress, or on the floor of the Caribbean - but it could turn up.

Would make for some tense moments in the VDS lives.

I have to admit that this was literally a light bulb that just went off. Haven't really thought it through.

Oh - and thanks AZLady re. the M&C thread. Input from many Monkeys on that one.

We discussed this a couple of months ago and I too believe she could have been shot.  I also agree the person who would have the nerve to do it would be Joran.  They mentioned the gun in the police car conversation.  Satish mentioneds they looked for it and nothing was found.  Could someone be holding this gun for the Kalpoes because it gives them leverage with Joran.

San, that would be the answer to a prayer.  Obviously, the Kalpoes and Joran are uneasy bedfellows, neither trusting the other but bound by some evidence or knowledge the other holds.  We know the Sloot's leverage is their Dutch ancestry and connections.  What is the Kalpoes' leverage?  They have evidence of some kind.  The gun?

[sb]

They way the statement is phrased, it sounds like more a reference to something "internal" rather than to her outward appearance. It isn't "they will SEE all that...", it is, "they will FIND all that..." That sounds like they would have to test or investigate in some way. External injuries would be "seen".

[nonesuche]

I don't know.  But I do know that Satish brought up the gun right at the end of the conversation in the polis car.  This is not just idle chatter, but it means something significant to this case.

Sorry, I think it's just a simple threat that JVDS knows something illegal that can be held against Satish, to help keep the Bros Kalpoe towing the line.

and you're entitled to your opinion just as others are. I vote it's more complex for the scrutiny has been blinding here, few garden-variety criminals could have survived it this long without larger players.

[Ono]

It is bigger than 3 teen guys. This is organized on an adult level. The sophistication with which it has been covered up is well beyond a pack of tenn wannabe guys.

Agreed. Now, was the original kidnapping in this particular cae done on the behest & behalf of an adult ?

After I saw the video tape of Joran and the MB girls in the casino, and Natalee talking to Paulus, I have to answer YES.  This convinced me that Paulus chose Natalee and told Joran to bring her to him/them.

So far, I am inclined to agree...I also think it is very plausible that Joran is protecting his father in this.

[Carnut]

It is bigger than 3 teen guys. This is organized on an adult level. The sophistication with which it has been covered up is well beyond a pack of tenn wannabe guys.

Agreed. Now, was the original kidnapping in this particular cae done on the behest & behalf of an adult ?

After I saw the video tape of Joran and the MB girls in the casino, and Natalee talking to Paulus, I have to answer YES.  This convinced me that Paulus chose Natalee and told Joran to bring her to him/them.

So far, I am inclined to agree...I also think it is very plausible that Joran is protecting his father in this.

It's kinda obvious JVDS is protecting PVDS, but I think it's because PVDS handled the body disposal and the coverup.

[justinsmama]

Yup, I suspect Paulus is up to his closely trimmed nostril hairs in this.

[Ono]

Lala's, I can't help but think Satish's gun was used to inflict wounds upon her.  These could not be covered up or disguised.  Maybe this is the hold that the van der Sloot's have on the Kalpoe brothers.  It was Satish's gun.

I'm guessing no one knows the answer, but was that gun confiscated?

   Try this:
What if Satish couldn't do it - shoot someone - and Joran grabbed the gun and shot Natalee? (Because if Satish had shot Natalee, we wouldn't be here. It would all have been over in June 2005.)

Onward. That would be a gun with J's fingerprints, a gunshot wound, and maybe an embedded bullet.

In that event, there is literally a smoking gun out there that could be found someday. It could be under Satish's mattress, or on the floor of the Caribbean - but it could turn up.

Would make for some tense moments in the VDS lives.

I have to admit that this was literally a light bulb that just went off. Haven't really thought it through.

Oh - and thanks AZLady re. the M&C thread. Input from many Monkeys on that one.

We discussed this a couple of months ago and I too believe she could have been shot.  I also agree the person who would have the nerve to do it would be Joran.  They mentioned the gun in the police car conversation.  Satish mentioneds they looked for it and nothing was found.  Could someone be holding this gun for the Kalpoes because it gives them leverage with Joran.

San, that would be the answer to a prayer.  Obviously, the Kalpoes and Joran are uneasy bedfellows, neither trusting the other but bound by some evidence or knowledge the other holds.  We know the Sloot's leverage is their Dutch ancestry and connections.  What is the Kalpoes' leverage?  They have evidence of some kind.  The gun?

And/or proof of knowledge of Paulus' interest in Natalee ? There is some damning meaning in that Kalpoe statement to Joran : "....your own father."

[robots]

i got a five dollar bill in change the other day when i bought something

it said "ARUBA SUCKS"


honest, it wasnt me   that wrote it  

[Leslie]

Simian Says: June 24th, 2005 at 6:06 pm
I ponder the evidence of sex and drugs with the father. It was to hard for her and she could not handle the pressure. I am done. I am leaving now…..

[AZLady]

Joran: That's your problem. If they find that girl, then they will see that shit.
Joran could easily be referring to bullet wounds they could "see" on the body.

Below is the bit of conversation that intrigued me.  This is the first I read any mention of a gun, and Joran brings it up to Satish in jeering manner.  I think he wants to know what happened to the gun.

Joran: I should have killed you, +++++. Shut your trap.
Deepak: Won't be fun, if you are standing in front of the judge of instructions tomorrow. Why not? Too much evidence?
Joran: Then they are also allowed to hit me. Do you think that it makes a difference to me. One slap will be enough.
Satish: You think, you think.
Joran: What do you think, that you are going home to get your gun?
Satish: That I have a gun.
Joran: Satish, you, get gun at home, me shoot you two dead.
Satish: Look, the police already went to my house and already investigated [searched] the house. Did they find a gun? What will she get? ["Wat zal zij krijgen." The word 'zij' is for the word 'she' or for 'they', but they use the singular verb for 'will', therefore'she']
Deepak: (to Joran) Sometimes, you talk bullshit, right?
Joran: (to Deepak) Why is that shit not true? Witnesses saw you.
Satish: In the end we will see, who gets out and who stays. You tell the truth, we shall see.

[robots]

Joran: That's your problem. If they find that girl, then they will see that shit.


BOMBSHELL

[sb]

Simian Says: June 24th, 2005 at 6:06 pm
I ponder the evidence of sex and drugs with the father. It was to hard for her and she could not handle the pressure. I am done. I am leaving now…..

This is one I had not seen before.

 

There is a LOT there.