Elizabeth Olten #2 10/29/09 - 11/18/09

[novella]

Hello!  I am new here.  I am not from the South, but I am from a state that is experiencing a lot of gang problems.  I think AB is not necessarily from a particular "gang" but I do think it is a possiblity that she emulated certain ideas from a particular gang.  The following information is from a Juggalo blog site:

The dark carnival is structured like a religion, complete with pseudo deities and mock ceremonies. A quick run down of the fictitious religious icons:
Carnival of Carnage is the first Jokers Card, it represents the way rich people ignore inner city violence. It’s also a story about a traveling carnival which will come to a town, your town, and slaughter the wicked and sinful; the hateful.
The Ringmaster is the second Jokers Card and represents a kind of Karmic deity. It is said that at some point in your life you have to fight the Ringmaster in a wrestling match. For every sin you have ever committed the ringmaster grows larger and stronger. Sins, by the way, are not the same as in the Christian religion. These sins are Hate and Bigotry, Greed, Corruption and Ignoring the pain of others. When you win, nobody ever wins, you are granted eternal life. When you lose, you die. Nobody ever wins.
Riddle Box is the third Jokers Card is about judgment, but not the same kind of judgment as the first two. This is your judgment. When you lose to the Ringmaster, you find yourself in an empty space and before you is a box, a jack in the box kind of box with question marks and a big handle and music that is inviting and creepy at the same time. You turn the crank and the music speeds up, you speed up, eventually the music stops and you stop as well. The lid opens and it is either soothing angelic music or creepy evil music. If the creepy music plays, the face of the Riddle Box pops up and tells you your sins. You feel guilt for each one. You feel horror. You are let into the carnival. If the good music plays, you go to the carnival and you watch as the people who had been evil are tortured, and to you it seems like a carnival attraction, to them it is hell.
The Great Milenko, or fourth Jokers Card, is a slightly different deity. He exists inside of you. He is the voice in your head that tells you to do bad things, stealing from friends, for instance. He is also the voice that tells you that after you spent that money on what ever that it wasn’t really your friend’s money. It was his grandma’s. Your friend had to buy her medication and now she’s probably dead. He is the devil on your shoulder and the voice of your guilt. He encourages sin and then laughs at you as he explains how your sin has hurt another.
The Amazing Jeckle Brothers are the fifth Jokers Card. They also exist inside of you. They are a metaphor for the battle of good and evil inside of you. Jack throws the ball to his brother and Jake catches. If Jake drops a ball, you have been too evil and are beyond repentance. Riddle box will sentence you to hell. If he doesn’t, you go to Shangri La.  Jack throws the balls and with every sin you commit, see Ringmaster, the balls get heavier and his throws get more inventive. With each act of mercy, love, acceptance and kindness, the balls get lighter. The metaphor also serves as one for the world. If all the people cause the Jeckle Brothers to drop their balls, the entire world will end.
The Wraith is the sixth and final Jokers Card. He represents death, the actual act of dying, and how it can come at any moment so you should live a life of goodness or you will end up in hell. Shangri La, the first wraith album, is fun and all about the Juggalo family, hells pit is all about pain, loneliness and despair. You make your own hell and you live in it every day.
These are the deities of the false religion and the metaphors in the stories. Knowing this is not enough to be a Juggalo.
Even having the same sense of humor, even living a life in tune with the Juggalo religion and believing in the dark carnival as literal truths, even those do not make you a Juggalo.
It certainly isn’t about the amount of money spent on merchandise or attending the Gathering of The Juggalos (a festival the band holds every year). It isn’t about anything other than this.
Juggalos are hurting inside. We hurt, kind of like Emo Kids hurt, but we don’t (always) do it to ourselves and we don’t (always) whine about it. Some do, some don’t, but in the end, the hurt is a special kind of hurt. A hurt that desensitizes us to violence, that leaves us feeling like we have no family and no friends and leaves us with a deep and personal despair that makes us feel like even God has forgotten us. And we use that pain to try and make the world a better place.
Few of the people who claim Juggalo live up to that last requirement but I think they will, some day, down the line.
Most people see us as just drug addict high school drop outs that don’t bathe and work dead end jobs and this is true, for the most part, because of our pain. We don’t all do drugs. We didn’t all drop out of high school. Some of us bathe. Some of us have good jobs. Some of us grew out of our depression and anger and loneliness but its there, in our hearts.
No other scene has the same soul as the Juggalo scene. The family shit is kind of like a cult sometimes, kind of like a gang other times, but it’s mostly like a support group.
 
 
INSANE CROWN POSSE LYRICS FOR THE SONG "WHAT IS A JUGGALO" http://www.metrolyrics.com/what-is-a-juggalo-lyrics-insane-clown-posse.html
 
LeFavor said Juggalos often describe themselves as misfits and report being among the crowd who was picked on in school. The feeling of not fitting in inspired Juggalos to band together and form what they call a "family."
Other characteristics of Juggalos include their willingness to accept people with different viewpoints. Juggalos are not opposed to drug use and promiscuous sex; they often clash with people they believe are bigots or discriminate against people, LeFavor said.

Many wear "hatchet man" necklaces or emblems, which is the logo of Psychopathic Records. The "hatchet man" is a running figure holding a meat cleaver.
In Salt Lake City, Juggalos operate a hot line where other Juggalos can find out where to meet up for a barbecue. The group also supports Graffiti, a music store in Murray that sells ICP merchandise. There is also a local Juggalo wrestling league.
ICP concerts typically draw a large crowd in Utah, as was the case Thursday where the group promoted their latest album, "Bang Pow Boom."
The group was introduced by an announcer who proclaimed, "They're laughable, they're lovable, they'll slit your [expletive] jugular!"
Hoards of people of all ages went wild when the group took the stage, spraying Faygo soda into the crowd (the soda, produced in Detroit, is cheap and is supposed to symbolize ICP's humble beginnings, according to fans at Thursday's concert).
 
Juggalo pictures at http://www.idaho-post.org/SpecialNotices/OfficerSafetyJnJ.pdf


 

[novella]

Now, AB does not have the Juggalo look, in fact, she looks EMO.  Her hairstyle and clothes are similar to EMO girls and her taste in music per her videos is also considered EMO.  Look at this blog site:

 Emo (pronounced /ˈiːmoʊ/) is a style of rock music typically characterized by melodic musicianship and expressive, often confessional lyrics. It originated in the mid-1980s hardcore punk movement of Washington, D.C., where it was known as "emotional hardcore" or "emocore" and pioneered by bands such as Rites of Spring and Embrace. As the style was echoed by contemporary American punk bands, its sound and meaning shifted and changed, blending with pop punk and indie rock and encapsulated in the early 1990s by groups such as Jawbreaker and Sunny Day Real Estate. By the mid 1990s numerous emo acts emerged from the Midwestern and Central United States, and several independent record labels began to specialize in the style.
Emo broke into mainstream culture in the early 2000s with the platinum-selling success of Jimmy Eat World and Dashboard Confessional and the emergence of the more aggressive subgenre "screamo". In recent years the term "emo" has been applied by critics and journalists to a variety of artists, including multiplatinum acts such as Fall Out Boy and My Chemical Romance and disparate groups such as Coheed and Cambria and Panic at the Disco.
 
pics of emo girls at this site http://www.soemo.co.uk/emo_scene_girls_pictures.php








 

[novella]

Also, EMOs like to hurt themselves and their preferred method is by cutting.  BUT, EMOs usually do not hurt others.  This is a bizarre article written about EMOs and cutting...kind of the EMO humor:

interesting writing on EMO cutting: http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Emo_Cutting
 

[novella]

What I am struggling with is: Are today's teenagers different from yesterday's teenagers?  Think of Ozzy Osborne, Judas Priest, Motorhead...I could go on and on.  How much crime that was never publicized did these groups inspire?  But, what if it wasn't the crime, really...what if it is something that has been handed down through generations...HATE...Where are AB's parents, what were their parenting skills (if any), and what darkness did they listen to and have in their hearts?  So, is it possible that such children coming from this darkness harbor a darkness that we can not comprehend?  I believe AB has some serious emotional problems, but look around...she isn't alone.  This crime that she has committed, the crimes that we are seeing...they are just the beginning.  Go listen to the music they listen to and then tell me if you are not worried.  I am.

[Fanny Mae]

Welcome NOVELLA. Not many posters here right now. But I share your concern and wondered myself if it could be generational. Garbage in garbage out is so true. How can this be normal?

[mizjay]

What I am struggling with is: Are today's teenagers different from yesterday's teenagers?  Think of Ozzy Osborne, Judas Priest, Motorhead...I could go on and on.  How much crime that was never publicized did these groups inspire?  But, what if it wasn't the crime, really...what if it is something that has been handed down through generations...HATE...Where are AB's parents, what were their parenting skills (if any), and what darkness did they listen to and have in their hearts?  So, is it possible that such children coming from this darkness harbor a darkness that we can not comprehend?  I believe AB has some serious emotional problems, but look around...she isn't alone.  This crime that she has committed, the crimes that we are seeing...they are just the beginning.  Go listen to the music they listen to and then tell me if you are not worried.  I am.

NOVELLA~  thanks for all that info. It had been talked a little (juggello) earlier but those articles were very good.
Yes, I'm worried about todays kids.  In my teenage era, even with Black Sabath and other dark artists and all, mostly when somebody was a chronic LSD user and did stuff or maybe the random violence, it just seemed like therewas always some reason that could be pin pointed.  Nowadays our kids get a steady diet of violence on tv. Even the little ones are viewing murder and mayhem while parents watch , a lot of parents say "oh, they're so small they don't understand whats going on". It doesn't matter, those images are being imprinted in the brain, the preteens are allowed to play incredibly violent video games, teens are allowed pretty much free reign  to express their dark side. 

[New Monkey]

O/T I just got an e-mail from NORTHERN ROSE. Her family has been very sick with H1N1, and some are just coming down with it. She says she appreciate the prayers. 

Awww, I am sorry to read this!  My little girl just got over it.  She was absolutely miserable.

Prayers for Northern Rose and her family.

[novella]

Thank you for the Welcome Fannie Mae and MizJay!

I agree, violence is bombarding us from all angles.  I do not even like to watch the evening news, myself, because I end up hearing about children being murdered by children. It makes my heart sick. 

In some regards, I am glad that they are keeping this case under wraps.  Many people commit crimes for the thrill and then the glory.  I have a feeling that AB was seeking attention.  The less attention the media gives...you know that AB is sitting in Juvi watching Nancy Grace and feeding her ego.  Double edged sword...

[novella]

What I am curious about is AB's motivation to lead LE to the body.  I think this is going to have an impact on where AB is going to be tried.  Did she lead LE to the body because she knew that Elizabeth had to be brought home so the family could have closure?  Or did she lead LE to the body because she wanted credit for the kill?

AB made the decision to kill...I don't think that is a decision that one comes to easily and I have a hard time buying that it was spontaneous.  Killers are created by a combination of genetics and environment.  She could have chose differently.  Now a child, who could not defend herself, is gone.  AB has to accept the decision of society.  "Judge as you will be judged" comes to mind. 

[bigmoney]

Does anyone have any pictures they can or want to share? I there has been a lot of picture taking going on ( at least earlier ) my local news staions didnt cover this much either. I am also VERY surprised that this has somehow dropped out of the news. VERY strange!

Unfortunately, it seems that the pictures have been wiped off the news sites. I am looking for a photobucket for you.

Here is a link to a Photobucket.
http://s296.photobucket.com/albums/mm166/crankycrankerson/Elizabeth%20Olten/

thank you kindly. I appreciate all of the help. I am little slow to get caught up here. 

[mgoblue]

What I am curious about is AB's motivation to lead LE to the body.  I think this is going to have an impact on where AB is going to be tried.  Did she lead LE to the body because she knew that Elizabeth had to be brought home so the family could have closure?  Or did she lead LE to the body because she wanted credit for the kill?

AB made the decision to kill...I don't think that is a decision that one comes to easily and I have a hard time buying that it was spontaneous.  Killers are created by a combination of genetics and environment.  She could have chose differently.  Now a child, who could not defend herself, is gone.  AB has to accept the decision of society.  "Judge as you will be judged" comes to mind. 

Hi Novella: I've never posted to this thread, but I've also wondered what prompted her to lead LE to the body. It just doesn't make sense to me unless it was for some type of sick publicity. And welcome to the cage!

[novella]

Thanks MgoBlue!

I guess, I have sat back long enough!  I have been in the cage for awhile.  It is the state of the world.  I have sat across from teenage killers in war torn countries and listened to them nonchalantly tell me about chopping off some father's head with a dull machete, only to be surprised that the machete just cut through the windpipe so they keep hacking, then take the head to the family and give them the head in a plastic bag like they have just delivered a gift. They sat across from me drinking cokes and eating candy bars.  The stories, being gruesome, were awful, but the worst was how calmly they told them...as if they were removed from it all...as if the real human had left.

Over there, however, the poverty stricken teenagers are recruited into these "gangs" because their siblings are starving and they need money.  Here...these teenagers do not know the meaning of truly having nothing...yet...still the same sickness.  What I realize...here...there...is that it is all about the money.  There...the poor are used for a means to fight the infidel...here...the lost are used to keep buying...to feed the greed for the almighty dollar.  And in this quest for wealth...we have come to the point where the shock factor sells...the more outrageous...the better.  It is at the expense of our society and the more common place gruesome things become...well that becomes the downfall of our society.

[novella]

I guess, my point is that these children in this country are given almost everything that can lead them to a perceived "succesful" life.  But in giving this to them and not making them work for it...not teaching them that it is easy to lead a sad life but a struggle to have a happy one, they feel empty.  Now they turn to murder for their thrill because it is not something they can just have.  They have to create it, plan it, carry it out and see if the game leads them to getting caught.  We are raising manipulators, so should we be surprised that they bite the hand that feeds them?

[three left feet]

I think one of the reasons I can't stop thinking about this senseless killing is because of who AB appears to be.  Her facebook photo looks like a normal girl, one that you might have babysit your kids.  One that you would let your little girl play at her house, with her even.  And then there are those other photos like myyearbook and it's like it's a completely different kid.  XxDisillusionedxX is another perfect example.  She looks so morbid on myspace, but she looks like a sweet girl on facebook.  It's a Jekyl and Hyde.  There are quite a few of AB's friends who on facebook look like "regular" kids, the kids you might want your own to hang around with.  But these same kids have myspace accounts that are disturbing.  Do they really have that split persona or are they just putting on an act for their friends?  AB being on honor roll, living in a nice house, and going to church doesn't fit my idea of a murderer.  It's almost like the adage about taking the evil you know versus the evil you don't.  If I were around some of the myspace kids my guard would be up more.  But those facebook kids look innocent and friendly.  And I sure wouldn't expect some of those facebook kids to track back to those dark myspace photos.  And that's a scary place for me to be. 

If this case turns out the way everything looks like it is, there is no way that we can protect our kids.  My child's facebook account and AB's show mutual friends.  I've looked over AB's facebook friends, and I personally know some of them.  The rules of life are changing.  If the kids are fooling each other such that many of AB's friends would never expect this from her, how are we supposed to expect it?

[Kenda]

Now, AB does not have the Juggalo look, in fact, she looks EMO.  Her hairstyle and clothes are similar to EMO girls and her taste in music per her videos is also considered EMO.  Look at this blog site:

 Emo (pronounced /ˈiːmoʊ/) is a style of rock music typically characterized by melodic musicianship and expressive, often confessional lyrics. It originated in the mid-1980s hardcore punk movement of Washington, D.C., where it was known as "emotional hardcore" or "emocore" and pioneered by bands such as Rites of Spring and Embrace. As the style was echoed by contemporary American punk bands, its sound and meaning shifted and changed, blending with pop punk and indie rock and encapsulated in the early 1990s by groups such as Jawbreaker and Sunny Day Real Estate. By the mid 1990s numerous emo acts emerged from the Midwestern and Central United States, and several independent record labels began to specialize in the style.
Emo broke into mainstream culture in the early 2000s with the platinum-selling success of Jimmy Eat World and Dashboard Confessional and the emergence of the more aggressive subgenre "screamo". In recent years the term "emo" has been applied by critics and journalists to a variety of artists, including multiplatinum acts such as Fall Out Boy and My Chemical Romance and disparate groups such as Coheed and Cambria and Panic at the Disco.
 
pics of emo girls at this site http://www.soemo.co.uk/emo_scene_girls_pictures.php








 

If you go to this site and then go to the heading what is an emo, at the bottom is a comment section with a lot of disturbing comments such as " i thought bout cutting my self. i did cut my self .because me and my parent argue,and my aunt died of cancer a couple weeks after my birthday.but i haven't cut my self in 4 months so i think thats good", " I want to f**king die", and many similar comments. This emo culture is very disturbing, If you have a child into emo you better keep a very good watch on what is going on in their minds. They seam suicidal, homicidal and cutters.

[TiskTisk]

I have been following this case so closely since it broke like many of you.When i first saw AB's pics on her various social sites I must admit I was shocked, but not because the smeared lipstick and dark writings but because she looked exactly like me at 15.I also suffered from cutting and was quite the dark poet.My creative writing teacher didn't immediately turn me in for my my work either.Actually the opposite I received a National English Merit Award.Which is crazy when you read what I was actually writing there. I will quote from the original poem.("Sadness"The feeling can make a mother cry as her tourtured child lay dead at her feet.Sadness can also be as red as the blood dripping from the wrist of an unloved person.
It is the sound of pain,horror,and of course sorrow.It's smell can bring an angel down to cry.
It looks like the face of a killer who has now killed himself.The feeling of bittersweet memories torn to shreds
Sadness is a brush of a devil slowly stealing your soul.)See what I mean! I was on medication Prozac,then paxil then etc etc This went on from the time I was 13 to present.Unfortunately I think what happened to me is what happened to AB I was misdiagnosed with depression for years and it only continued to get worse.(fyi I am fine now just a bit of Bi polar after all:P )She should have been looked at more seriously than just passing it off that oh she wears strange clothes and listens to music that induced morbid thought so she has to be sad not homicidal or dangerous.I can't imagine what makes a person take that turn when they lose all control and lash out on a child like what has happened here.Seems like she slipped threw the cracks.It's sad that not 1 adult that we have heard yet took take the time and interest to get to know this girl enough to figure out if she needed help.When friends are considered to be more of a family than a teens actual family everybody should take notice.But this is all just my opinion or at least a part of my opinion,it is early here and my brain doesn't come online till at least 9am  

[no rose colored glasses]

 TiskTisk thanks for that thought provoking post, many, many times a person is misdiagnosed, and the medication then that is given is useless. I'm glad you are fine now 

[TiskTisk]

 ::MonkeyDance::Thank you Rose I very much am.Turned out I wasn't a "danger" just an "Artist". lol We tend to be a bit dark and strange at times ;p I am lucky to have a wonderful family that makes sure I am ok that helps so much.Just making the point not to read into to much to the style of these kids, being shocking is a part of the culture,.Instead look more into the deeper problem within them and why they want the attention to begin with.

[trimmonthelake]

Tisk Tisk,thank you for sharing.   

[SloSthrnStyle]

G'Morning Monkeys!!

Welcome to all the new Monkeys too!!