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Author Topic: Natalee Case Discussion #818 4/30/09 - 5/17/09  (Read 388477 times)
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billb's daughter
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No Body...No Tourism aruba! Bring Natalee Home!


« Reply #1100 on: May 11, 2009, 01:31:12 AM »

Anita,
"Bring up a child in the way which is right and when he is old he will not depart from it."

And yeah, there are exceptions of course to everything.  But first, you have to at least try the above.  It may fail but it is the correct thing to do because otherwise failure is guaranteed.
Everything aruba is 'read between the lines'
anita nailed it.....
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wreck
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« Reply #1101 on: May 11, 2009, 01:36:29 AM »

Now Wreck, we are all being so   an angelic monkey in honor of Mother's Day that you should make us an angel pyramid instead!

I think most of us were blessed with Mother's who at least tried to teach us to do the right things and whether they are still living or not, we carry that love and teaching in our hearts still.

With my own Mother being so old and frail and having beginnings of Alzheimer's Disease, I can't help but wonder if this will be the last Mother's Day I have with her and I am not even positive she knew who I was today making me all mushy but I will still have her lessons in my heart regardless of what the future holds.

And I am thankful Beth had Matt today for she was not alone and I am sure he did all he could to make this day a good one for her as well.


That was very well said, Anna! I won't try to add to that!

an angelic monkey
 an angelic monkey an angelic monkey
 an angelic monkey an angelic monkey an angelic monkey
 an angelic monkey an angelic monkey an angelic monkey an angelic monkey
 an angelic monkey an angelic monkey an angelic monkey an angelic monkey an angelic monkey
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billb's daughter
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No Body...No Tourism aruba! Bring Natalee Home!


« Reply #1102 on: May 11, 2009, 01:36:37 AM »

more than one woman destroyed that night
......how could he allow his mother to suffer this bad
...........joran the only way to stop the pain is to come forward
            you owe your mother that much at least
                look what you've done

I tend to agree with KTF on this one, especially hard to stomach on Mother's Day.  I read it first this afternoon, and decided to walk away rather than say what I thought.  This post and the other one about Freddy & Boeti, have the credibility of this poster at or below zero for me.  At first I thought....smells of Anita's BFF medleyrelay...but then again; they would never want Joran to "come forward" with anything.  They are all depending on the misinformation team to steer all the suspicion away from the guilty, and toward the victims....Natalee and her family.  Not happening!  So now I have some suspicions that I'll keep to myself until I see more.

 
I agree!! Note that I had the first reply and was somewhat polite about it!

Wreck..You shouldn't be so polite.Especially after the NBA screwed the Mavericks.
Sorry to be off topic, but jeeze !! New posters coming here and acting like we haven't done our "homework" infuriates me!!

The one thing that doesn't ceast to amaze me is these posters,and or people have absolutely no scruples.The sense of entitlement from this EVIL-ISLAND is of epic proportions from what i've come to learn.This is a very sick island perpetuated by some very sick industries!As a wise Monkey once said.Beth is slowly tightening the screws.... Monkey Devil!
What is so sad....the morons are just throwing '$hit' out there...for the next time around....they know there will be a next time around on 'one happy island: it has happened 20 times before...
The MORALE.....DON'T VACATION IN aruba...YOU LIFE DEPENDS ON STAYING AWAY>>>>
ROBOTS...I HATE THEM ALL!
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billb's daughter
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No Body...No Tourism aruba! Bring Natalee Home!


« Reply #1103 on: May 11, 2009, 01:38:43 AM »

The above post was for Agraria.  I don't have an active link to it but if you go to CNN and the Nancy Grace archives and that date, it should still be there.

Unless, of course, it's gone!  Just kidding but lots of stuff has disappeared over time as archives usually only go back so far.



Thanks, Anna. I have never seen that. There is just so much information but I would have remembered that. I have just never seen it before.

I understand completely.  It is just so shocking that this boy was talking about that and in such details that he could not have seen in the pitch black dark and then later his mother saying the same and claiming he told her about the underwear.

Still makes my blood boil every time I think about them saying that.  Natalee is not here and alive to be embarrassed and her parents are beyond that now as well. 

To me it's just more proof of Joran and his mother's guilt.  They knew what underwear the victim was wearing and yet this creep walks free today.

Anita van der Sloot is the LAST PERSON ON EARTH I honor on Mother's Day.
She's a real MOTHER....my a$$....Justice day is just around the corner for mother anita... Monkey Devil!
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texasmom
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ARUBA: It's all about Natalee...we won't give up!


« Reply #1104 on: May 11, 2009, 01:41:26 AM »

The above post was for Agraria.  I don't have an active link to it but if you go to CNN and the Nancy Grace archives and that date, it should still be there.

Unless, of course, it's gone!  Just kidding but lots of stuff has disappeared over time as archives usually only go back so far.



Thanks, Anna. I have never seen that. There is just so much information but I would have remembered that. I have just never seen it before.

I understand completely.  It is just so shocking that this boy was talking about that and in such details that he could not have seen in the pitch black dark and then later his mother saying the same and claiming he told her about the underwear.

Still makes my blood boil every time I think about them saying that.  Natalee is not here and alive to be embarrassed and her parents are beyond that now as well. 

To me it's just more proof of Joran and his mother's guilt.  They knew what underwear the victim was wearing and yet this creep walks free today.

Anita van der Sloot is the LAST PERSON ON EARTH I honor on Mother's Day.
She's a real MOTHER....my a$$....Justice day is just around the corner for mother anita... Monkey Devil!

 
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I stand with the girl, Natalee Holloway.

"I can look back over the past 10 years and there were no steps wasted, and there are no regrets,'' she said. "I did all I knew to do and I think that gives me greater peace now." "I've lived every parent's worst nightmare and I'm the parent that nobody wants to be," she said.

Beth Holloway, 2015 interview with Greta van Susteren
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« Reply #1105 on: May 11, 2009, 01:42:38 AM »

Thank you for those nice words about Beth today, Tricia.  Yes, Beth and many other mothers who have not received her status in the public eye struggle daily to rear children with character and integrity. 

They are the ones for whom this Day was made to honor.  Mothers who tell their children to always tell the truth and to do no harm to others.  And I do believe they are still in the majority but it only takes a few who fail to instill these values in their offspring to ruin so many things for others.

Failure to set boundaries and limits for children is just as abusive as beating them but some do want to be their child's friend rather than a parent.  Paulus for example.

And based on these things we ultimately make our own decisions in life for the good or for the bad.


Anna,

Your post brought up an interesting challenge that I wonder about daily. How does a Mother prepare her children to spot these criminals???

Doctors say there are a higher percentage of them in the population every year. Charming manipulators without any trace of a  conscience...

looking for opportunities to take advantage of others.  We have met our fair share in our life. I wish I had known how to prepare my children for

 those interactions. How do you tell others about EVIL IN THIS WORLD and how to spot it. (AND WITHOUT scaring their socks off!!)

The only thing I can truly identify for myself is "words vs actions". Their actions never follow their words.

Is there any other way ...innocent children have to be aware, I know.
 


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« Reply #1106 on: May 11, 2009, 01:54:26 AM »

Now Wreck, we are all being so   an angelic monkey in honor of Mother's Day that you should make us an angel pyramid instead!

I think most of us were blessed with Mother's who at least tried to teach us to do the right things and whether they are still living or not, we carry that love and teaching in our hearts still.

With my own Mother being so old and frail and having beginnings of Alzheimer's Disease, I can't help but wonder if this will be the last Mother's Day I have with her and I am not even positive she knew who I was today making me all mushy but I will still have her lessons in my heart regardless of what the future holds.

And I am thankful Beth had Matt today for she was not alone and I am sure he did all he could to make this day a good one for her as well.



Anna,

I am so happy you had your special day with your Mother today. She certainly felt your presence even if she could not recall your name. She must be a very special Mom to have instilled in you such a caring soul. Obviously, you the reflection of what she taught.

I, also, am extremely thankful Beth and Matt had each other today.

Tricia
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texasmom
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ARUBA: It's all about Natalee...we won't give up!


« Reply #1107 on: May 11, 2009, 02:02:52 AM »


Bracelet in Natalee's memory
Beth Holloway Twitty, the mother of missing Alabama teen Natalee Holloway, wears a bracelet that spells Natalee's name, top, and a blue bracelet in Natalee's memory, in Palm Beach, Aruba, on Tuesday, June 28. Holloway disappeared on May 30 during a high school graduation trip to this Dutch Caribbean island. (AP/ Leslie Mazoch / June 29, 2005)

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/longisland/sfl-missinginaruba.gallery,0,6920961.photogallery?coll=ny-top-headlines&index&index=1
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I stand with the girl, Natalee Holloway.

"I can look back over the past 10 years and there were no steps wasted, and there are no regrets,'' she said. "I did all I knew to do and I think that gives me greater peace now." "I've lived every parent's worst nightmare and I'm the parent that nobody wants to be," she said.

Beth Holloway, 2015 interview with Greta van Susteren
texasmom
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ARUBA: It's all about Natalee...we won't give up!


« Reply #1108 on: May 11, 2009, 02:06:59 AM »



Truth & Justice for Natalee!
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I stand with the girl, Natalee Holloway.

"I can look back over the past 10 years and there were no steps wasted, and there are no regrets,'' she said. "I did all I knew to do and I think that gives me greater peace now." "I've lived every parent's worst nightmare and I'm the parent that nobody wants to be," she said.

Beth Holloway, 2015 interview with Greta van Susteren
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« Reply #1109 on: May 11, 2009, 06:16:00 AM »

Well sorry but I have to go now. . . .
I will be back on Monday.

Have a great week everyone ! 



Wasn`t it DiSetti who told us he had no pc at home?
I find that very hard to believe

Hi Bastibro,

Sorry but I don't.. I just don't have the money for it 
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« Reply #1110 on: May 11, 2009, 07:50:23 AM »

Joran's statement June 9, 2005

To your question as to what panty Natalee was wearing, I answer you the following. Natalee wore a dark blue panty. According to me they were embroidered panties and according to me these were flowers.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=160.0
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« Reply #1111 on: May 11, 2009, 08:11:39 AM »

Well sorry but I have to go now. . . .
I will be back on Monday.

Have a great week everyone ! 



Wasn`t it DiSetti who told us he had no pc at home?
I find that very hard to believe

Hi Bastibro,

Sorry but I don't.. I just don't have the money for it 


NO excuse for trying to SELL information about the case.

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« Reply #1112 on: May 11, 2009, 08:13:51 AM »

Joran's statement June 9, 2005

To your question as to what panty Natalee was wearing, I answer you the following. Natalee wore a dark blue panty. According to me they were embroidered panties and according to me these were flowers.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=160.0


Thanks, Buckeye.

IMO, Anita told Joran the flowers were "embroidered".  Not a word in Joran's 2005 17-year-old vocabulary.  Loser wannabe-pimps don't say 'embroidered'.

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« Reply #1113 on: May 11, 2009, 08:24:42 AM »

REMINDER

Here some e-mails from Deepak


Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 00:33:15 +0000

Hi

How are you i hope you and your family is fine. -name deleted- is better i tell you the truth , before it will be a shock for you later, but i think it will be a shock for you rightnow. The missing girl natalee hollaway,I spoke to her , sunday she left with me , my brother and a friend from carlos n' charlies , it was my car like the news said she got in to, I am one of the persons of intrest , i am one the the students they've questioned and released as they claimed in the news . Let see where to start i don't even know where to begin these last days where so crazy for me i'm very tired haven't slept good in days : The story starts sunday night when a friend of mine was playing poker at a local casino (in the holiday inn) after he won the poker at the fourth place he decided to get up and play some blackjack so he went to the blackjack table and there was natalee (they were a lil drunk ) so my friend started playing blackjack and he was winning quite good , so then natalee approached him and introduced herself and said to him'' your a lucky guy , can you help me win some of my money back i lost $ 360 , of my fathers money'' so my friend said ok , why not . so he started playing and he won 100 $ for her back and he said hey thats the best i can do for you because i doubt it i can win more money for you so its better i quit so she said ok but at least let me buy you a drink so they went to the bar (in the casino ). so they took a drink and started talking etc. about school, the vacation etc.etc.afterwards my friend had to go and she said that ''today is my last day i will be in carlos n' charlies will you be there'' and my friend said well i have school tomorrow i don't think so . well she begged him and he still said yes i'll be there.So that was in the casino i was not present , i was at work so my friend called me and said hey i met some girls in the casino and her friends and they want us to meet them in carlos tonight do you have to work tomorrow morning i said no , so he said pick me up later then i said ok. so i got off my shift at 10 pm and went home took a bath had to fix something and then me and my younger brother went to pick up my friend was around 12.10 am so i came to his home and was talked for like 15 min and then left to go to carlos (we all went out without or parents knew) so we arrived like 12.30 am in carlos (carlos is closing 1 pm ) and headed straight for the bar and bought 3 drinks my friend paid for them, so besides the bar there is a stage and people were dancing and there was natalee dancing too (thats the first time i saw her )and she was calling my friend to get on the stage and dance with her my friend laughed and refused so after the song was finished she came up to my friend and asked why he won't dance with her , i only heared that part because i was talking to someone else so i don't know what he responded(by then natalee was VERY drunk)so as i said i was talking to someone when i turned i had lost my brother , natalee and my friend. well they were announced that they were closing soon so i thought well maybe they' re waiting for me by the car its better i go there so i went to my car and nobody was there so i started playing music and was waiting on my brother and my friend.i waited for like 10 min and then i saw my brother stepping in the car and my friend who was with natalee. so i was surprised but anyways i started the engine and my brother was besides me and my friend and natalee were in the backseet so i started cruising in the area and asked my friend whats going on so natalee responded to me ''hey its no prob let us just drive around and have fun its my last night , she said you can drop me off later at holiday inn anyways right'' i said sure why not so as i was drove out of the carlos road and got on the mainroad there were natalees friends and she , pushed het head out of the window and screamed something i can't recall.so i was driving very slow to make a left to get in the next road and then one of natalees friend screamed for her to get out of the car , and she refused so then i stopped my car and i said natalee if your friends want you to go with them its better you go listen to them and go with them , she said no i will stay with you guys i will get a lift from you anways later, so she said bye to her friends and i drove away, so then we were just talking etc, in the car and then she said she wanted to see sharks ,it was by the lighthouse she saw them before that can we go , my friend said ok ,deepak lets go. so on my my to the lighthouse there was music playing and noone talking for a while when i looked in the backmirror my friend and natalee were kissing and touching (his hands etc was in her blouse but nothing nude or against natalees will ) so my brother siad just leave them for a while untill we get to the lighthouse, when i arrived at the lighthouse i said well here is the lighthouse they did not pay attention to me , so my brother said lets return (i did not stop anywhere not for a min only trafficlights) so after like 10 min my friend is telling me that natalee fell asleep i said you kidding just wake her up and tell ask her if its holiday inn for sure she is staying so my friend woke her up and confirmed with natalee she was staying at the holiday inn, so i drove to the lobby driveway of holiday inn and then we woke her up, she got out of the car and fell on the floor my friend said damn she fell and then rushed out of the same door natalee came out and picked her up immediately, after she stood up she pushed my friend and said leave me alone or something like that i can't recall , my friend offered to help het to her room she said no. she he stepped in the car and while i was driving away i saw natalee walking towards the lobby and a gentleman with a walkie talkie and black clothes approached her and i think they were talking and i had never seen natalee again sinds.(holiday inn has no cameras in the driveway or lobby) it was around 2.15 am .monday i came to work normally 4- 11 pm after work i called my friend i said whats up he said ok i'm at the raddison casino meet me there , i said ok so i went there we played poker , we had some drinks and chat and then we had enough and decided that this casino was booring lets go to whyndham hotel casino . so i drove to whyndham and as i was parking my friends dad called him and said the police is at his home with some family members its about the girl you guys went out with yesterday , so my friend said wait there i be there, so we rushed at my friends home and there was the police and nataless family and it was a nightmare sinds then. the police asked us if we knew this girl showed us a picture we said yes thats her , they said she was missing and eyewitness say she was the last seen with you guys . so they asked a few more questions and we said we don't understand we left her at holiday inn lobby drive way how could she dissapear and then natalees stepfather jumped and said ''yes thats because after she went with you assholes she lost'' and then my friends father jumped and said thats enough you can't talk to the kids like that this is not the us your out of you juristiction this is not the way i want you people out of my yard i know the law (my friends father is e judge) so afterwards another family member of natalee suggested to the police if we can id the security gard we said ok. we went there there was no suck security working there as we discribed. so then we were just standing in the lobby there were questions etc. asked by other members , and then me and my friend walked to the car natalees mom was sitting and we said mam you have to believe us we did not do anything with you daughter, she was crying and said i don't believe you 2 , i promise you i will make you life a living hell because of this . anwyas we said we were sorry again ans that we will help in any way possible.i went home 7 pm tuesday, i was then called 2 pm by the police for questioning i went gave a statement they said i was a witness no suspect the same went for my brother and my friend they were questionded and had to sign their statement also , the checked my car and i was clear to go , wednesday i was called again to show them how i drove the route that day ( i could refuse was my right i still decided to go , as did my brother and friend ) the drove us one by one and then we were free to go again.thursday morning my friend called me (he goes to aruba international school and his mother is a teacher there and he is a straight A student ) in panic and said there a re family members here at school and they are sharing flyers and the flyers said : GIRL KIDNAPPED ASK JORAN VANDER SLOOT (thats my friends name ) the principle asked them to leave and they did .so thats my part of the story yesterday and today it was quiet no treathen phoncalls what we got before and i won't mention the crazythings the newspapers etc. writes about us its to much to mention. at home my mom is losing it she is cryimg constantly , my dad bloodpressure got high also his hands are red , my friends home is a disaster also ,his mom is crying constantly also his dad is pretty cool he calmes us down and talks to us also not to worry , my brother is preety cool but on his face you see he is worried , my friend is pretty worried also. i'm pretty worried also , we have 2 lawyers one for my friend and one for me in case we get arrested and charched with something his dad can't defend hin he is a judge and he is too emotional attached .my friend has his graduation this thursday he has to go to the states in july he has a full scholarship. i had to go to vacation also end of this month.many politicians find we should be locked up rightnow.We heard a lot of false alarms that she was dead , she was seen with 2 guys , her hair is cut and is red now ,she was in a crackhouse etc, we were arrested and , my car is by the police we confessed to murder and rape, she went in a restaurant to buy food but none of those were true.So -name deleted- that was my part of the story what i said here is the same in my statement,people are saying they are bad guys lock them up , the family is going thru a lot righnow , but what they don't know how the other families feel and how they also have a reputation and carreers etc. because when this all is over they will still be talks that were the 3 guys that had something to do with the kidnap of natalee its a small island.they don't understand the pressure we are having also, if this girl turns up dead we have a problem we were the last seen with her . I lost a lot of friends who think we had to do something with this, many of my friends supported us also brought food etc. for us at home and know we are innocent, we are innocent also we promise i would NEVER hurt anyone in anyway, i would do every everything to help find her thats what we told eveyone also , i would take a bullet to save her and bring her back to her family if i had to so would my friend also.i would never never hurt anyone i'm a very happy and social person who likes to make friends with people and not hurting them



So -name deleted- i will say goodbye now hope you believe me and i pray to god that they find natalee soon and find her well so that this nightmare ends for all of us and they we prove we had nothing to do with this, i hope you pray for all of us say hi to everyone there hope to hear from you soon and may god bless.........

bye bye

Deepak.

HannieC- 02-10-2006

2nd one



Letter 2:

Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 15:26:12 +0000

Thank you for your wonderfull email you send me I really appreciate it. Things are going better with me now , as you you know there has been 2 arrests i don't know if it comes because the information we gave or just another tip.They were 2 security guards for a hotel nearby the holiday inn where natalee was staying , but we don't have any further information . I would be willing to try making an Id by the police for the 2 suspects i only saw one of them in the news.My parents are doing better now , my friends parents are doing well as well. Although we are almost of the hook we still don't walk much on the streets a lot of fingers are being pointed etc. But the press Is like trying to locate us or something i don't know this morning my friend got a letter for nbc if we were willing to give an intervieuw for a very good price we did not respond to them yet , we don't know if we will give interview as yet. The local press however we won't give any interview they sad a lot of bad things about us they should be ashamed of theirselves.But for now its just from home to work for me , and in the afternoons i go by my friends house we order pizza etc. and watch the news whats going. Anyways -name deleted- i have to go now , if i have any ipdates i will let you know asap. the press is all over it so i don't think you will be missing any part of it . As for for natalees parents we did not hear or see them personally yet , the police chief askes us if we would be willing to talk to them if they wanted to talk to us . We accepted that as long they would not talk aggressive to us as they did before.

Take care , Say hi to the others and I will mail you again



bye bye

Deepak.


HannieC- 02-10-2006

3rd one





Letter 3:

2 days before first arrest

Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 23:33:21 +0000

How is everything there. Well they did not say anything yet about the bloody T -shirt. (bloody matress) But we are fine, everything goed normal. The only problem was that yesterday there were like 30 reporters at my friends gate. They thought we fled the country , what is ridiculous why would we leave,they were there for like 45 min but my friend stayed in his room did not come out the parents were talking to them they wanted to know my adress thank god they don't know it . As for the guards i don't know anything yet about them did said they would decide today what they would do with them if they would charge them or something did not understand that part, and yes its in my statement that i am willing to try id the guard. We told the police about the guard so i think that helped the police a lot . But for now she is just vanished i don't understand how she could vanish like this .I never saw this before in my life , this same girl was sitting in my car spoke to me and now she is just lost.But anyways i'm going now , if i have any further information i will let you know, i was planning to go to vacation 30 th of june but if this is not solved i can kiss that vacation goodbye. Lets hope she will be found soon and found well



Take care : Deepak
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« Reply #1114 on: May 11, 2009, 08:29:35 AM »



Deepak is a lying criminal.



Honest people do NOT attempt to SELL information about a missing person's case.


JMO and only MO
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« Reply #1115 on: May 11, 2009, 08:31:26 AM »

Reminder


Why was Joran in the Netherlands and why in North Brabant?

I was thinking he has or have a friend there and not Jaap. But that is just a research I did.

The street and place where Joran and others where after the crime.


Bubali 111 A Teléfono: (297) 587-7562. Cell phone: (297) 592-5272
This mansion is now on sale on the below link.
http://www.2dehands.nl/vrijstaande-villa-op-aruba-49170953.html?huis_xregio=58&p=all
This person now lives in North Brabant, Geldrop.

My oppinion is that Steve Croes is moved from here to Holland.

But still not sure it is. But I found it very suspicious
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« Reply #1116 on: May 11, 2009, 08:34:12 AM »



Deepak is a lying criminal.



Honest people do NOT attempt to SELL information about a missing person's case.


JMO and only MO

MO too!   

Morning monkeys!  Wakey wakey!

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« Reply #1117 on: May 11, 2009, 08:34:45 AM »



Deepak is a lying criminal.



Honest people do NOT attempt to SELL information about a missing person's case.


JMO and only MO

Hi Lifesong.

You're right.

I am now copy everything I got to here on SM now. If you don't mind.   


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DiSetti
Scared Monkey
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Posts: 87



« Reply #1118 on: May 11, 2009, 08:41:25 AM »

taped phone call between Joran and Deepak

Joran: The only thing that I can think of is my family. I do what my family
tells me to do. Right, +++++.
Deepak: Your own father, unbelievable.
Joran: What my father, it is your fault that he is arrested. I didn't
declare anything against my father, you two declared against my father
Satish: We didn't declare anything.
Joran: Or course, you did.
Satish: What did I tell against your father?
Joran: You are telling that he declared, that if there is no body [lijk =
dead body], there is no case or I don't what. All shit. That is totally not
true, the only thing is that he said is, if there is no body [lichaam =
body], then there isn't a case.
Deepak: Yes, that's true.
Joran: That's not true.
Deepak: I also said in my statement, that it wasn't meant like that.
Joran: Didn't read it in your statement. They use that now against my
father.
Deepak: We suffered a lot because of you.
Joran: That's the price that you let my father pay. That you let him suffer
like that. f*** you. If you let me suffer, I say ok. It doesn't matter to
me. I can just sit here for 160 days. It doesn't make a f***ing difference
to me. I'm sitting good here.
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Lifesong
Monkey Junky
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Posts: 2223



« Reply #1119 on: May 11, 2009, 08:47:06 AM »



Deepak is a lying criminal.



Honest people do NOT attempt to SELL information about a missing person's case.


JMO and only MO

Hi Lifesong.

You're right.

I am now copy everything I got to here on SM now. If you don't mind.   




I do mind, actually, because I think you are despicable...but it's not up to me.

I will never forget that you, disetti, are dishonest and dishonorable.  My opinion.

I will continue to share my opinion as well...hope you don't mind!   Monkey Devil!
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"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."  - Galileo
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