Scared Monkeys Discussion Forum

A new thread for news and discussions. NEW name for thread.. RBN #...

PLEASE visit the link below with Tom and Red's WEBLOG for summaries of the information gathered here.

www.scaredmonkeys.com
Please be sure to read the TROLLS announcement. Thank you.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A gentle reminder, that at times we get heated and angry over something we read. Perhaps something someone else says. When you feel yourself typing out things you would "never say to a person if they were standing in front of you", well.. that is the time to step away.

Get a coffee, watch some TV, hug your hubby/wife, take a walk, take a shower.... take a break. Go watch the sunset.

This is a highly emotional issue that has dragged on for weeks (and might go for weeks more).

Remember, we are all real people with real feelings. Sometimes, when we type out "words" they aren't taken in the same context that we meant them.

Give others the same latitude you would like them to give you. Don't assume the worst, look for how that person could have meant something other than the worst.

Life's too short. We are not lost... our loved ones know where we are.

Be thankful.

Besides what reason do the MB kids have to lie about this sort of thing.

I don't know, but since you brought it up, I don't think they're lying (I am reasonably certain as you can be over the Internet that Dash isn't), but I do believe there things we don't know.  I suppose withholding isn't the same as lying.

I thought that they honked the horn until Mr VDS came out and said that Joran was at the casino.

Are you saying the Kalpe brothers were also at the VDS home at that time, and came out with Mr VDS?

Im sorry I just dont buy into that, not any evidence of it so far.  Most of them probably no as much as we do.

So now the kids are lying and withholding?  Yikes, where is this forum going?

Im sorry I just dont buy into that, not any evidence of it so far. Most of them probably no as much as we do.

You don't have to buy into it.  It's just my opinion, that's all.

No they weren't there until the group came back to the VDS home, to find Joran and Satish outside talking.

I had an article way back where the kids said they couldn't give out details because Natalee's family thought it would  hurt the investagation.

Please try to stay on topic.  If you feel the need to "chit chat" please feel free to use our new "CHIT CHAT" topic while you wait for news.


This has fallen on deaf ears. These threads are no longer informative or interesting.

There are only 8 replies to "chit chat" and there are hardly 8 interesting "breaking news" posts out of 700 posts.

Yikes, Nancy, we're discussing possibilities.  I know that offends you so don't read my posts - just skip right on over them, I won't be offended.

And did she talk to them? I heard her comments about her exchange with Joran but I have not heard her say that she talked to the Kalpoes.

I know that, I was just stating my disagreement.

I will carry it a step further, I think many things are known. Family knows much more than we do. (yes i do believe that). MBHS know far more than we do for the time leading up to 1:00am.

I am not sure with even with a body they would be close to solving this unless it came from a confession.

That's true, hence my comment about "witholding".

The Kalpoe's were in the bar, Im sure Natalee knew it wasnt a taxi. Besides that would a taxi take them to the lighthouse (if thats where they went)

That's crazy, what could the kids possibly be lying about?

Well, Yikes there RB...it seems you've gone overboard AGAIN!!  Theories and speculation are great and really can really make a difference.  I'm all for it.  But, NORMALLY those theories are based on a few FACTS!!!!

The report I saw said Joran was talking to one of the Kalpoe brothers when the Holloways arrived with PVDS.

Were they seen there by any of the other students?

Anyone watching Nancy Grace? Kinda intresting.

What's she sayin?

#1 I read most if not all of the kids on the trip were interviewed by the FBI already so any information they have would be in the hands of the Aruba police
#2  They are probably keeping quiet because they don't want their name and faces all over the MSM
#3 Several of the kids have already done interviews such as last night

I don't see your point RB, what is it that you would like to find out from them?

No, I'm not overboard.  This board is not dedicated to "facts" or half the posts would be here.  As I said, if you don't like what I post, move on.

She got into what she "thought" was a taxi with a taxi driver, Joran and then who did she think the 3rd person in this "taxi" was? Plus remember, she is not carrying a purse...only money in her pocket we think. So are we to assume that she got in a taxi and then told him to drive all over the place looking for sharks, lighthouses., monkeys with little money.

Sorry, I don't believe she thought it was a taxi.

I think Beth's description of Joran's demeanor makes him look very guilty and cruel. He admitted to his parents that he was intimate with Natalee the night before , now Natalee's missing and its like he doesnt even care, he just wants the whole thing to go away. :roll:

We have at least 2 and possibly 3 different ways and times that Natalee met JVDS and that is just from MBHS accounts on the the TV.

Nancy , nobody is saying they are lying but there are little facts. I really don't believe the kids were questioned enough and I really don't think they should of left Aruba without being questioned .
There are alot of kids that were on that trip and maybe one of them has the answer,maybe not.
But I do believe all or any theory should be looked into for Natalee's sake.

TERRY.. if you are still on .. I sent you a PM..!

More people need to be questioned? Mr. Holloway is pointing the finger at PVDS!

Natalee's Dad just basically fingered daddy vandersloot on NG

Me either but more to the point, what difference does it make to the discussion if she thought it was a taxi or not... what am I missing here?

Well, here is what I think about the MB students.  They were all down there having a good time.  We saw the report on CNN done after Nat went missing and it showed a lot of graduates drunk and partying it up.  There is nothing wrong with that.  That happens all the time.  But there was no tragedy with that group like there was with Nat's group.  They did not expect something like this to happen and for their every move to be scrutinized by their parents, the FBI, and the entire world.  They never expected to have to explain to anyone how many drinks they had, who they met and when or any of that.  You know, for all we know they were all trashed like we saw the other graduates and none of them were paying enough attention to know what happened.  But what person wants to admit that on TV and tell the entire world that they were drunk and irresponsible?  I don't know what things were like that night, but any teenager would want to make it sound like they were being more responsible than they were.  That's why I think it seems sometimes like they are covering or trying to match stories.  Just my opinion.

i have my suspisions about you nancy.....

Neither do I. It doens't make sesne anyways why wouldn't vds just tell her.

Greta has the VDS at 10pm. Taped today in their house.

Do you know what medication Natalee had in her bag?

Someone out there can answer this.

What exactly did the dad say and what was the context/

Gotta see that one!  :wink:

Back at ya... :wink:

you get your pm..?

I guess there a group of bloggers in here whos sole purpose is to defend Natalee's behavior.

I don't see your point RB, what is it that you would like to find out from them?

I didn't say they lied, Perf. I said withholding isn't the same as lying, and I mean that sincerely. I think there most assuredly things that none of us will know until this is over, some of which may come out sooner rather than later at the rate things are going.

Can you imagine being the Aruba/Dutch authorities and let's so at least 20 of the people closest to Natalee on that trip are back in the states and you can't interview them?  I think I'd want to...

There really isn't much rare about that.  That's why seasoned law enforcement like the FBI know that is the case and do thoughtful, detailed interviews with all of them.

Everyone views events like this differently.  So many kids, so many activities...it's very normal there are several different versions.  But, timelining and lining up facts clear this all up.

Also, the fact the students have stayed mostly quiet is not a fault but a huge asset....it shows real class and respect for Natalee, her family and the case.  There's not a damn thing wrong with that.  It's so rare we see real grace we aren't sure how to handle it!

Yep, I will have some specific info then. That is Saturday correct?

Pretty interesting that the VNS's allowed this one to be recorded and taped when they knew in advance that Greta would be there.

Don't want to step on any toes, but I don't think that if Natalee's mom thought that there was a single person on that trip that had any information beyond the existence of Joran, and that he had been seen in Natalee's company, specifically, if she thought that anybody on the trip was witholding any information about Natalee's whereabouts, that she would be in Aruba passing out prayer cards in 107 degree heat and going on Aruba TV to address the public.

Does anyone seriously think that Natalee was abducted and is either held on the island somewhere, or taken off the island?  What does the family and the FBI think of the abduction theory? Are they looking into it???

Because if it's a slight possibility, it does not seem like anyone is looking for anything other than a body on Aruba at this point.

What if the boys stories all stop at "we left her on the beach"? Where do we go from there? Perhaps SC holds the key??

icey

.. still trying to hope for the best..

Nancy Grace asked him who he thought had more information, he said after stammering over calling him a judge or not, the "judge" then he quicky said the other 3 MUST tell the truth.................

I just don't understand what important piece of information it is that you are searching for? In the big picture what difference does it make? Are you disputing the fact that she was last seen with the 3 in custody? What difference does it make if she met him on Wednesday or Sunday?  Would it make a difference if she hit on him or he hit on her?

i think that has been ruled out...

Whoa, it almost sounded like Joran's mother was admitting his guilt.  Maybe I wasn't hearing it well, did anyone else see it?

#1 I'm not a 'blogger'
#2 I'm not defending Natalie

 :D

.

Unfortunatley, sometimes the ones you suspect the least is the one you should be worried about the most.

And it seems to me like their is a group whose sole purpose is to attack her every action and those of her friends as well.  I think all we can say at this moment is that we dont know what happened.  I tend to believe the potential victims family and friends unless their is evidence to the contrary.  But others don't for whatever reason.

Can you explain perhaps how and when she met him will solve this mystery? I am feeling really stupid here since I can't figure out why that is so important.  Please enlighten me.  Thanks! :)

I think we may be seeing on the board why we are not hearing on here what the rumors out of aruba are. The island things there is more here than meets the eye and that possibly the family has more information.

THAT IS A FACT. THIS IS WHAT THE ISLAND THINKS. Flame away.

I just got an email from the Holloway family....did any one else?

I think the abduction theories were hoaxes. These guys are being accused of murder. I think Croes is being held for supplying drugs to Deepak that killed Natalee.

Better have some headers ;)

If she met him at 930 briefly and then again at 1230 at CNC there is no way the Natalee protrayed on this board would leave with him.

no but who else is getting PM's from a poster claiming to be a parent of the Kalpoe brothers?

 :?:  :?:  :?:

nope...

After a few drinks who knows what someone would do. When alcohol gets involved people loose their inhibitions. Their is always the possibility that she was drugged, but who knows.

What if just one of those people from the trip said you know I MAY have seen her in the parking lot of HI (alone) at 2:30am.

Possibly a more complete questioning would have gotten to that.

on second look it wasn't from the Holloway family, it was from Nataleeholloway.net, sorry. here it is  
Hi all, the family of Natalee Holloway has finally contacted Nataleeholloway.net. Please find below some updated information that the family would like circulated.
 
The family of Natalee Holloway is now offering $150.000.00 for the Safe Return or
information that will lead to the safe return of Natalee.
 
A Reward and Recovery Trusts have been set up through Amsouth Bank in Birmingham, AL
 
Account names:
Family of Natalee Holloway Trust Recovery Fund
Family of Natalee Holloway Trust Reward Fund
 
Please send donations to:
Baker Crow
Amsouth Bank
Trust Department
PO Box 11426
Birmingham, AL 35202
 
***** Please note weather your donation is for the Reward or Recovery Trust Fund.
 
The parents of Natalee Holloway has ask me to post a special thanks to all of you for your kind words, prayers and support.
 
Thank you;
George (Jug) & Beth Twitty
Dave & Robin Holloway

I've gotten them from someone who appears to feel they have more information than the MBH crowd is letting on. Now whether you choose to believe that or not is up to you :)

Oh, please.  More alcohol than one's used to, last night on a beautiful island, new boy that you think is attractive.... you'd be surprised what could happen.  And besides that, apparently lots of MB students had seen him around the casino, she probably did too and had her eye on him.

amazing what crawls out from under rocks...

littletxlady, I was only teasin' ya 'bout them damned headers :)

Please don't start with the "Natalee wouldnt do that" stuff. I think it's been established that Natalee did leave with them willingly.

Hello again monkeys!  Does anyone have the link to WW's Deepak email?

Love to believe that but the portrait painted on here won't allow it.

I like my rock - it allows me to cross dress. :)

Has its own thread on the main index.

Seems like we do have better photo examples *somewhere* on the Monkey forum, but since I saw these close at hand, I'll link:

[First is a TV screen capture of Deepak's car on the carrier when towed in to impound--thus the greenish color of all--car is actually silver]

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y84/patchworkpiecer/deepakscar1.jpg
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[An Aruban taxi--a regular car with a removable magnetic message board on sides for Taxi logo]

http://www.aruba.com/images/taxi.jpg
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[These images are side by side for better comparison on a thread at the FR forum--if it doesn't go automatically to the photo post, scroll down to #1359]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1426433/posts?q=1&&page=1359

It's in it's own thread on the board, Wench.

LOL RB!!! That wasn't a comment to YOU. It was about the PM Posers!!

nancy...what did you mean about Ms VDS seeming to imply Joran's guilt?

What did you hear and what show was it on?

:lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

I only get PM's from Professor and its all about Gilligan.

:shock:

 

maybe joran called the Kalpoes on his cell and asked them to pick them up at the club.

Tyvm!

Thank God for that, I thought I was going to have to levy bandwidth fines if I saw it posted in full text every 3 comments apart.  :D

Kerin I have gotten so many PM's I had to delete some.  One thing I will say is that every one of them has said they're afraid to post on this board, and some of them appear to have some valuable contribution they could bring here.  They say it's "hostile" :)

anyone watching O"Reilly right now???

According to Karl Penhaul on CNN, Steve Croes' claim to fame is that he says he saw the 3 drop Natalee off at the HI.

Karl did not say whether Steve saw a man in black.

Yeah but I need different forum to post on about it.

Not watching.. have it on in the other room. I can only hear bits and peices.. sounds interesting..

That sucks, I really wish we could see them. I'd like to know if some of her friends have a different version of her than what we have heard up until this point.

So, here we go again.  Back to the HI.

 :lol: LMAO :lol:

They just had a clip of her speaking, it was on Nancy Grace.  She started out by describing him as a normal 17 year old...blah...blah...blah....THEN she started saying, "It could happen to any kid, we raise them, love them...."  She said more and I'm REALLY paraphrasing....but, the tone changed. If someone else saw it please post...I didn't see the whole thing, and her accent my have thrown me off.

Hostile...I am not sure. But words do "hurt".

HATE TO BE MORBID What if she is somehow attached to that boat 'Tattoo' don't want to think like that but if it is a party boat and goes in and out all the time.  ???????

Uhhhh...me too Absolut. Actually I was going to use the book title and apply it to our latest discussion.

SORRY...NO BASHING

That doesn't make sense because Jorans dad picked him up a 11pm and then he had to get home call the guys , sneak out, and get to the bar at what time. must be 12am or later, then call them back in less than an hour, I don't think the other guys are really a "taxi" service ( no punn intended)

I vote for hostile, if I didn't have another agenda I would have left already. And no I am not telling anyone what it is. But if you look at the post back to me and the battles I have picked up and fought you will see what I say is true by example.

Nancy - I'm out of lurking only because I think I saw what you saw. I think it was Greta, giving out teasers to her upcoming interview with the VDS', said that the mother has not been able to ask JVDS if he did it, but said that if he did, he should be punished as the law allows.

PVDS said that Joran snuck out of the house at 11:30 pm. He would have needed a ride to C&C's.

Deepaks email almost makes sense and fixes this timeline since JVDS didnt walk to CNC>

It would be understandable for her friends to feel guilty, knowing she was drunk, and regretting now that they didn't stop her from leaving with Joran.

Can you imagine playing over and over in your head....'if only I insisted she stay with us, she'd be alive and with us'?

This must be an agonizing time for her friends who were with her up to the last moment she was seen.

I do have a question of the board, though.  If this case is ruled an accidental death and no one gets punished (at least not for murder), what are you going to say then?

I'm inclined to believe you. It would seem that the police, FBI and the family are looking at this as a accidental death or murder.

Hopefully the Aruban people can find Natalee, or offer up more info. Locating her body will bring a quick end to a good portion of the intense focus.

icey

I've read that account before, not sure I believe him, either do the police considering that he's been arrested and held as a SUSPECT not a witness.

This was probably asked already.. if so I missed it and I apologize.. does anyone know how far C&C's is from the VS home?? Is it in walking distance?

They would have to search it, and that doesn't look like its ever gonna happen, but how bout one of those water taxi everyone is so fond of as transport.

Oh for crying out loud! Quit whining!  Everyone is welcome here. But, it's only logical when a train of thought or a far out theory gets out of hand, isn't fact based, it's gonna bring on a group outcry.

That's just human nature.

Yep, thats the email I got last nite, and provided a link to. I even started a thread on it

Right. picked him up at McDonald's, according to Mr. VDS, per Greta, if I am not mistaken.

Maybe that is why Mr. Holloway is so insistent that Mr. VDS knows something.

Are there any witnesses who have been able to confirm that Mr. VDS picked Joran up at McDonald's?

LOL it brings an outcry all right, and you're a ringleader :)

That it was an accidntal death.  I personally believe there's a strong chance of that.

I think this is what most people believe.

The MB kids arent lying. They werent with Natalee 100% of the time, so they wouldnt all know the meetings with Natalee and Joran. It's understandable that different people would say different things in that context.

 IF that was the case.. what could anyone say? But the questions still lyes.. where is her body then? Someone would STILL be in trouble!

To be honest with you, if it was accidental I would want those who knew about it punished in some way for covering up and causing the family so much pain.  I would be terribly sad that she is dead.  And I would be very thankful that her parents have closure.

And your Point ?

Nancy how bout a clear and concise theory from you in paragraph format. I have heard what you have to say yet. It all comes out as attack, snippet, attack, snippet and frankly it has gotten kind of old.

DT and Luna, can you say why you think that way, if you don't mind?

arubagirl said no - it would take an hour to walk that far.

Thanks Inspector!

oooo details, Kerin.  Let's try both and see how they differ.

Flame Flame - yes, one of those crazy stories is it was the step father - he wanted the life insurance...Give me a break

Nancy - there are only one or two things that are not pure theory here - Natalee is missing and she went out for a drive with the 3 boys after CnCs. Everything else is speculation but there are certainly some very strong and at times nasty reactions to people who join and ask questions that do not fit one or two set "theories" of the case. One of those theories is that Natalee was a perfect saint, all the kids drank responsibly and all the bad stuff was done by those awful foreigners.  I think this is what RB and Absolut are pointing towards. Usually real life is more muddied than all that but there are times when anyone who suggests that gets treated as if they are "trashing Natalee" and some folks, esp if they are not used to being online, find that intimidating and hostile.

am still running about an hour behind here trying to catch up, but i just want to commend HLSlawyerChik on some great sleuthing...

seems perhaps someone should send a few questions to Wyclef Jean & posse re: black shirts ...and what they were up to?

Hi my american friends ,


How are you all today.

Any interesting news ?

Interesting question - there were some reports on these boards a couple of days ago that said some MB students saw PVDS at McDonalds at 3:00am.

arubagirl posted that McDonalds closed at 1:00 am

but why wouldn't you want input from the island if you could get it. I plan on having first hand accounts and be able to ask for place investigations if those go to saturday. You have to set up those connections not shut them down.

Since the only thing that meets the eye and stands up to a fixed stare is that Natalee is missing, I'll have a large order of that.



I would like to think that is the case, and they may indeed have more information. I am sorry to say I do not think they have any more facts.

There is a wealth of information available, much of it contradictory.

Maybe they saw him at 11 picking up that hot kid JVDS in the blue shirt.

Then why lie about it many different stories?

First of all I try to stick with the simplest explanation.  Things like white slavery and her being a runaway are to far out their unfortunately, no matter how much I would like them to be true.  

Second it just doesn't seem to me like any of the three are murderers. I don't know if I would put it past them to drug her though.

Third, by all accounts their stories are changing, so obviously they have something to hide.

Fourth, it makes sense in the context of the evening. They were out drinking partying and what not, so its not so hard to see that drugs might have been involved at some point.

I'm not so sure if I believe it was anything like a date rape drug though.  Natalee seemed to be interested in Joran so he probably wouldn't have tried something like that. Maybe one of the firends did who knows.  

I could be wrong about all this though.  I would certainly like more details.  It would be nice if you could give us some idea as to what those pms were about.

Great post.. !! I do not know of 1 teenager that is perfect.. I always thought my daughter was next to perfect. she is 21 now.. and recently told me when she was 15.. and missed school the one day it was cuz her friend that she spent the night at. DAD bought them a 5th of cinnamon schnopps.. Not much I can do how many years later.. I was a teen once and know what I did.. No teen is perfect.. I am NOT picking on NH or anyone else for that matter... I did the same things when I was younger.. away from my parents and the drinking age was 18..

On the earlier question about accidental death.

If the guys would just tell the family where the body is, then I would support a mild punishment.

There is no reason to ruin three kids lives and it won't bring Nat back.  By that I mean she fell and hit her head or something like that.  Perhaps a year in jail and then probation for obstruction.

If they gave her drugs without her knowing and od's then a longer sentence--five years, but not the life mentoned for murder.


I think that these are basically good kids and they will punish themselves for the rest of their lives IF they brought about her death.

While ofcourse I don't believe that, it's just as bad as 17 year old Joran  is in the "white slavery trade" and sold Natalee for his and his fathers gambling debts.
Some of these rumour are just as crazy as the next.,

After reflecting a bit more on Joran, his academic standing, his desire to go to the US this summer....I feel it is highly unlikely that he murdered a young woman who came onto him that day.  I personally think there was a mutual attraction between the two of them.

As I've mentioned before, I believe that Nat may have died of alcohol poisoning.  She could have had a lot of alcohol on her final day (including shots at CnCs....which would explain her out-of-character behavior by leaving with them) and many young Americans have died from too much alcohol.  

I don't think Joran is the evil person he's been made out to be.  And I think there's a good reason for his initial story about the HI....he didn't want to tell everyone (including the Holloways) they'd had sex and what actually happened out of fear.

Just my take on it....sure many will disagree.

Without a body and ruled an accidental death - I would still hold out hope, as I am sure her family would as well, that she is still out there and alive. To me that would be the worst case scenario.

With a body - I would have to know where the body is actually found. That is going to reveal a lot, I would hope. For example, this new security guard theory could not result in her body being found in let's say, the house with the basement, or Venezuela.

seems perhaps someone should send a few questions to Wyclef Jean & posse re: black shirts ...and what they were up to?[/quote]



It would make sense that a few of the security guards were wearing all black.  Usually security guards near the stage wear all black to blend into the background more, so they aren't distracting / sticking out to the concertgoers.

I finally get a good nights sleep

Hey, I like Nancy Grace - go ahead and flame me
she honors our heros!!

Or MBHS' were doing drugs, or drugged her. I know improbable. Cause these guys were perfect.

Deepak told the security guard in jail that they made up the black t-shirt security guard thing and apologized for getting him involved - I believe the security guard.

Its possible, but why drug someone and then let them ride off with someone else, kind of spoils the plan dont you think?

And why would the three lie about it if they didn't have anything to do with the death?

Nancy kicks butt - ya gotta love her! :D

After all this time it is almost healthier to believe no one.

I LOVE Nancy Grace...is that a bad thing here?  lol

On another note...it was the day from hell (last day at my office) and i missed EVERYTHING going on today.  Is there any news?

With all the wondering about how Joran could get here, there, and everywhere, where is his family's home in relation to the hotels and casinos? What is within walkinh distance of Joran's home- or do people think he called someone to park outside and pick him up? WHat places are within walking distance of each other?

Also with his friends driving him around (Kalpoes), why did he need his dad to pick him up at McDonald's on the night he later snuck out?

Where are the posters from Aruba???

No they are NOT perfect, they are for the most part, spoiled little rich kids!!  But it's all our fault for letting them be... We over indulge our children, but it shouldn't have to die for it.

I was thinking the same thing - they just had the time wrong.

 Not really wench! I myself like Nancy as well.. I thought she was awesome with the Scott Peterson case!

My only problem with the security guard story is that throughout this entire time we've constantly been told by the Aruban authorities and people "in the know" in the community that they cannot reveal any of the information that they have.  Sure, many people have been interviewed and told what they 'speculate' or 'think,' etc., but the police aren't revealing anything themselves.  Most of what we think we know here is mostly speculation.  That being said, WHY would the police allow the security guard go on national news and tell everything he knows?  You would think that they would release him, but tell him that he's essentially under a gag order to protect the investigation.  

I don't know, maybe I'm crazy, it's just something that has bugged me since the day he was talking about it.

Here's a pic of J VDS I haven't seen yet...same shirt, different day!

[url]http://gallery.magic965.com/displayimage.php?album=212&pos=52
check out pic 52 or 53

Angie - thanks! Having raised 2 kids through teen years, I know that even my wonderful youngin's have made their share of bad decisions - and I know one of them sure did not react well when questioned about it.


The kids on both "sides" drank, gambled, partied, probably did some drugs, probably had some sex ... so let's not make only one set of kids the demons.

And remember that we know nothing - all the stories, changed stories, etc are simply reports in MSM.

The Arubans must be horrified if they have seen much of the discussions like some here - portraying PVDS as a white slaving drug lord bad father must not have made them happy - along with the constant critique of their justice system.

If X was flowing like water, and you believe deepaks email for behavior. She wasn't drugged by anyone. How much X did the MBHS do that week and what medication was in her bag?

Flame Flame - yes, one of those crazy stories is it was the step father - he wanted the life insurance...Give me a break

Wantsanswers, I have rapidly come to the conclusion you really don't want any answers, you're a cheerleader.  Give me my cross-dressing clothes back, will ya? :)

If this case took place here in the US, you would be all over asking those questions.  What makes the fact it's in Aruba any different?  We all appear to want  the Arubans to investigate this as we would here - well, why wouldn't those same avenues not be up for discussion?

What is Greta promising for this evening? I don't get FOX - but I have many in my yard.

But if she wasn't drugged by anyone then why hide the body? I mean if they didn't do anything wrong then they would just confess what happened and move on.

Deepak was at work? Didn't the email say that?

Off topic...It's probably been asked and explained, but my Aruba Flag avatar has been (((boinked))) as have all the others, too.  

...and it took a bit to find it and then attach it, here.  A casualty  :wink:

i never post. just have been readin along and following the story. Tears my heart out.

this is posted at another place on this site:

http://www.geocities.com/dutch_on_aruba/nhposteraruba.jpg

what do you think? Seems very odd to me.

People are saying this is legit. Seems bogus to me. And very strange.

(now, if this was discussed eons ago, I apologize. A person can't possibly read everything written from day one)  :wink:

possibly because Joran's arrival so close to closing cut him off at the pass and Joran and co were left with the aftermath

You are welcome.. and I agree with what you posted as well!! I know myself I am not one of the parents here in my area that profess my child is an angel .. in any way shape or form..!! Again. I am not bashing anyone... just a moms point of view thats raised teens!

Kerin think about me tomorrow I have to get my gallbladder scan.  3 Hours of scanning and Iv's.  They dont think my gb is working.

OMG...strange news about the 3 amigos being interrogated together in one room!

Are MBHS kids actually rich, or just upper middle class- what defines rich here? Also it's a pretty big assumption to say these kids are spoiled...I know you mean ALL our kids are spoiled these days and I can agree with that, but these MBHS kids don't seem to be any different than other kids to me. I wouldn't call them rich or spoiled just because their unofficial class trip was to Aruba.

Back on-topic, what has Nancy Grace said tonight?

<edited to edit out some typos>

Unfortunately, Tom had to turn them off due to traffic.  The avatars and sig lines all are interpreted as a "connection" by the software he's using for the forum.

Yes, if it makes sense, but honestly, who would believe the step-father )excuse me, who seriously would believe it)

Greta actually has another scoop!  She's got an on camera interview with the Van der Sloots at their home.

Here's a cynical thought-- knowing the Aruban law might toss out a case based on leeks to the media (unfair treatement), could the Van der Sloots be deliberately tyring to throw that monkey wrench into the works?

Though I tend to believe that the Aruban justice system can survive a few TV interviews with those involved.

By the way - has anyone given an educated statement of the various penalties these young men could possibly receive under Dutch/Aruban law - ie. for something like a manslaughter / accidental death conviction.

And the FBI is telling Mr. H that the they are impressed with the local interrogation techniques.  I wouldn't have expected that.

Where you hearing this from?

Reports from Aruban bloggers was that Croes was supplying Deepak with rufies (ruphynol) and it was Deepak that drugged Natalee. Was the plan to gang rape her? Reports were that she died from the drugs.

Thank you, RB...I figured it was something like that...loved that purple Aruba flag.

You know what they say: Fair, Fat, Female and Forty.

It's FAR too early to have a theory IMO. There aren't enough facts to do that yet. When I study a case I read and research and build a case in my mind.  The case is always built with facts and a sound timeline as it's basic structure...when rumors, hearsay or unconfirmed info comes along I tuck away the one I feel are "possible".  I'm very discerning in what goes on this list.

In the meantime, I study behavior, the legal moves, and use my own life experience to decide what is a possible truth. For instance now I'm watching the interrogations, their length, etc. I know they've stopped for the time being...I'm wondering why.  What is their next tact?  I'm also looking at behavior of the families. I NEVER waste my valuable time discussing theories that aren't based on some facts. I fully believe in discussing the possibilies...however, time must be taken to do real live deep research before I'll put it in my sleuthin' bag of tricks or start throwing innocent names around!

Detectives, and even good armchair sleuths build a case slowly and with great care.  I can tell you this...I don't believe this case is complicated.  The emotions and devastation of ALL these families in the aftermath are deep and complicated.  HOWEVER, I don't believe for a second the crime portion of this case is complicated.  IMO we aren't dealing with kidnapping, drug dealing or Columbian operatives.  

AND, I have a rule to NEVER, EVER to state something as fact if I know it isn't.  If one of my "possible" facts gets stronger I will throw it into a discussion,  BUT always prefaced with a tag line indicating it is rumor, or hearsay. And I'm very discerning about possible evidence that comes along. My goal is to build a strong case with sound information.

Absolut, were you not in the popular, rich group in school? Where would they hide thebody   when they weren't familiar with the island?

{{{Shell}}}}} Good luck, dear! But at least now they can take it out easily.

The attorney that Greta interviewed says 20 to life...no death penalty.

9 or 10 more witnesses might be forthcoming according to Daddy H. Oh my Gosh. This board is gonna go ballistic...

{{{{{Shell}}}}} Hang in there, honey!

That isn't the only rumor.

That's seems like one of the more likely possibilities to me.  It would certainly explain why steve is corroborating their story (assuming cnn is right).

No problem, Whitney.

OMG.. NH dad just on FOX saying there could be 9 to 10 more witnesses getting called in?? Anyone else hear this??  I can only hear a little bit.. AC is running..
  He is thanking folks back home for what they are doing for the family.......  He sensed others are involved.. and he said JVS developed amnesia all of a sudden...  ha ha!

don't forget flatulent  :lol:

Seems the Aruban LE thinks they're headed in the right direction with the boys. OR, of course, they could be dragging in Wyclef Jean's entourage....

Yep. BAL-LISTIC. Getcher helmets whilst they last....

how can you rule it an accident unless you have either the body or a witnesse's statement?

all we have now is changing stories..

when you have changing stories, something is being hidden...

besides, if its an accident, why not  bring her to the hospital or polis station right away?????

I surmiss that they didn't want to do that because she either had been gang raped or had drugs in her that weren't supposed to be there....

there is no other explanation for the lies......none whatsoever....

"Mr Van Der Sloot developed amnesia" - Natalee's father

Mr Hollaway is again on HnC saying the elder van der sloot has something to do with his daughter's disappearance. Wonder if something is about to happen?

Link from Michelle Malkin's article, "Missing Pretty Girl Syndrome," at her site. Nice overview of all the sociological aspects of the case.

http://michellemalkin.com/archives/002712.htm

-MC

First I've seen it but I'd say its another very sick joke. :(

I surmiss that they didn't want to do that because she either had been gang raped or had drugs in her that weren't supposed to be there....

I think if it was accidental, it was a damned if you do and damned if you don't thing.

HOLY SHIT I've missed out!  So the 3 guys are being interrogated together and Joran says that Deepak picked him up and Deepak says, "why are you lying".  Joran:  "Oh yeah, Satish picked me up."  Okay....then what?  Why do we only get little bits of info that make us go CRAZY???

she is an idiot. :evil:

Apparantly , Joran was talking to his classmate about the case, I wonder if it's his classmates...

And at that point you make a conscious decision to do the right thing or not. If you do the wrong thing, you are now guilty of a crime.

Why is that a sick joke?  I seem to recall that there was a flyer like that.

Looks like those school mates of Joran's are not going to escape questioning.

True that.  But what would the crime be exactly under Dutch law? BENDEX?????? Help me

Shell, it will all work out.  I'll include you in my prayers tonight!!!!

of course joran would get less since he is a minor.  somebody posted a dutch justice site earlier:  http://www.justitie.nl/english/

They were discussing it on Hannity & Colmes.  

The three guys were put into a room with interogators.  The interogators begin saying this one said this, and another one said this.......trying to get them to talk and maybe blurt out something.

Missed that class!

Where is Dallas when you need to show em something. Great post and you are no doubt very familar with websleuths, america's most wanted and courttv boards. Because that post was dead on with an armchair detective. Now maybe you can appreciate the fact that this is the first case many posters have followed and you can allow them to have those far off opinions that you would NEVER voice.

Very well could be.. its getting more interesting.. !!

Thank yall, Im 26 and have a gb of a 66 year old.  Who needs a gall bladder anyway?

Thanks iquitos

Can you PM me the text of the answer to that, if Bendex or someone else explains? Gotta head off and spend quality time with my own lovely child. How lucky to be able to do that.

Yeah, Shell, who needs it?

Very good logic! :D

Thanks, Dag

From the best I've been able to understand, the Aruban law is if any of the information from the investigation gets out into the public that it can cause a mistrial of sorts.  If that's true, then I don't understand why the security guard and his lawyer were able to reveal what was said in the jail.  That doesn't make sense to me.  Maybe someone familiar with the law could address that??  Pretty please.  I just can't bear the thought that somehow this investigation has already been jeopardized.

Oh, and another thought I had:  If the VDS's have said anything substantial to Greta or BH, is there any way they could be called in for questioning??

Thanks!

 

please look again.  seems reasonable to me.  it is personalized to get a response from natalee if she sees it.  sort of like the family password  i bet it is real

You are welcome :D

I NEVER waste my valuable time discussing theories that aren't based on some facts. I fully believe in discussing the possibilies...however, time must be taken to do real live deep research before I'll put it in my sleuthin' bag of tricks or start throwing innocent names around!

They why, nancy, are you discussing it on an Internet messageboard?  What's the be gained for your way of thinking by doing that?  Wouldn't you want your view to not be tainted by what's been floating around? Possibilties and discussion is what's happening here - I haven't posted a theory yet, nor half half the posters here.

coco- I am not defending Natalies honor. The fact of the matter is it doesn't matter to me if she was a saint or a slut. Like you said the two facts are she went for a drive with the 3 boys and she is missing. RB and Absolut are bringing up questions as to wether Natalie was a saint or a slut and in the context of this discussion it doesn't matter. That's the point I'm trying to make. We all know she left with them. We should concentrate on what happened after she left, not before because it doesn't matter. By RB and Absolut bringing up these questions of her character when it doesn't matter it seems like they are trying to pass blame on Natalie. Get my drift?

How one does dissapear accidently from a beach ?



- ajourney of a thousand miles begins with on step -

lao tse

So they bring the 3 in a room...and start questioning Joran and he says "Deepak you came back after an hour and picked me up at the beach" and Deepak says "stop lying" and then Joran says "Oh,I mean YOU did, Satish".
I would like to know the "rest of that story"...
and:
No mention of Natalee.

Sorry but did the Kalpoe's supply Joran with a story and then he gets in there and messes it up or what??

From what I've gathered on here, Natalee's nickname is "Hootie".  This was a very personal poster made by her mother.

I have been thinkong about this busness of Joran talking to his friends at school - I can't frankly imagine a 17yr old talking about a murder accidental or otherwise with friends so freely - I would think he would be so traumatized he would be in a trance almost, not knowing who to turn to.

Her dad seems to think she is dead.

From Hannity & what his name
I think that BTH's statement that her visit "confirmed" some things in her own mind was reference to the fact that she, now more than ever, thinks VDS senior is hiding something. And when she says that more people are involved she is referring to pop.  Just my opinion

Daddy Holloway thinks pop VDS knows something but is not willing to point fingers in a specific way. I don't think that dad H thinks she is alive. Just a gut feeling.

He says FBI says that Aruban police are doing a good job.
Asked about reaction to attacks on Natalee. Says he has not listened to press. I'm from south..trusting friendly people... VH befriended by them possibly the day before..not like they just met at the bar and she took off with them...natalee might be little naive but who's not at 18.

someone on FOX now saying he doubts she is alive at this point.. OMG it was her dad.. I ran in the room.. YIKES...  also posts and posts ago someone mentioned that his voice sounds like Michael Waltrips.. too lazy to look that up.. and I agree..it does. Something is happening I believe..
and nobody can talk.

sorry the first paragraph was me and me alone not from H & C show.

Unless he was making sure he told plenty of friends the "story" that he and the brothers intended to stick by so if these friends or classmates were asked they would say "Well, all he told me was that they went to the lighthouse and then they dropped her off at HI with a security guard helping her to the door..."

no not about murder, but about using the shocker--YES. Look at that sheriff's son in CA. and his buddies. Haihl I think his name was.

Thanks wbvious!

You're missing the point, Perf.  We're not targeting Ms Holloway, nor are we putting her on a pedestal. Sometimes the simpliest solution is the right one.

The waters, IMO, are much more muddied here than 3 guys abducted her and killed her.  No one deserves to die for a mistake, but that unfortunately happens and we have to learn from them and move on.  Nor does it give anyone else the right to take advanatge of a mistake to the detrement of your personal safety, and they should pay for doing so.  Please point out to me where any of us have said Natalee was as you described and I'll happily and meekly apologize.  You won't find that because we haven't done that, we're just open to all views and not just 1.

Actually dad said it was likely? not sure that is the word, that she had met these boys the day before.

Did they go the soul program its first night?

then, I'll bet.... here come the runaway theories again...

No, I'm not familar with those sites. I read TONS, have diverse friendships including detectives, writers and great journalists.  Yes, I have some patience for the newbies here...but, it's also the old timers (i'm not THAT old) who should step in and question, support and be downright frank when things get way off base.  

Cheers!

Please tell me why it makes a difference what her behavior was before she left?

Before she left where? Ig she left with Joran in the car, which seems to be conflicted although I think it probably happened?

I may change my mind after seeing him on Greta later, but at this point I think he may be hiding that like Mr. Bojangles, he drinks a bit.

Tsunami?

Heh.  I'd second that :)

Yes before she left with Joran, you don't believe that now?

Could the delay for the Texas group be this.

Aruba does not want Americans finding the body.

They think they are close and want to find it for many reasons without outside help.  So they put the team off two days.

Don't attack - but didn't everyone feel sorry for Scott Peterson when that all first happened???  I think that is what the retired detective was trying to say. I don't think you can ever know what goes on in the worlds of others.  You always think someone has the perfect life and then you find out things that make you realize no one has a perfect life.  Until it is all over - no one can be discounted.  The only one that knows what really happened is Natalee and the people involved and until it all comes out everything is a rumour.

Just please think about it. Why would he oft her there, pay a lot of money I might add, for an airline ticket for a hit man. He doesn't need the money, has many connections. Etc... I am not being a cheerleader for anyone. Believe me, if it smelled rotten, I would be the first one to throw it out to the group... The kids keep lying and that is where it lies....with them.

What is killin me is that that is all the info we get.  Where did that come from and why isn't there more??  What did Satish say?  Why would either of them pick up Joran and not Nat?  What the hell??

She isn't a saint or a slut she is a human being still missing outside our borders. You have no more and no less information than anyone else. I believe that more people were doing more things that jeopardized everyones safety that night. Natalee ended up being the victim (if you need that word) If there was medication in her bag that she had taken and then an illegal substance (willing) and drank. The boys loaded a lethal combination in the car.

There is a pattern here. If you can't believe the 3 didnt do it. (yes they may have hid the body) Then you don't believe the deepak emails or that MBHS stories do not line up. You are entitled to that, just don't put the word slut in my mouth cause I never said.

I am no less of a person on here because I do not agree with you.

Um, no.

I'm most certainly not going to attack, but I can honestly say that I did not for one day feel sorry for Scot Peterson.  I had a feeling from day one, from the moment it started, that he was responsible.  Can't explain it, but I did.

Thanks for you post Omni, I just loooove how some here seem to know everyone in MB, and how spoiled and rich they are  :roll: Whatever....

Can't see it now the site is overloaded. Maybe it isnt a joke, but I think that Natalee is alive is wishfull thinking. These 3 guys in prison wouldnt be changing their story and sweating it out in prison if Natalee was still alive.

doubt he talked about a murder, probably talked about how he ducked a bullet when the twittys visited and then the cops questioned him and let him go. he thought he was off the hook  he might be innocent.  i am sure he had a lot to tell without admitting murder.

Me neither, I knew he killed her day 1

Hi, all SM's!  I'm finally ready to stop lurking and join in.  I feel like I know you all already.  I've been reading for 3 days now and haven't done a thing around the house.  I was afraid I was a troll at first because I was lurking and wasn't registered!   :(
Hi especially to all my Texas buddies on line here.  I miss the Lone Star State!
I'm just a parent of 3 boys, one who is 17, and I'm just as concerned as the rest of you about NH's disappearance.  It scares me to think that boys could so something like this.  I'm so hoping the newest theory that some of you have about the other security guards being involved is true.  I prefer to think she's been taken "elsewhere" than at the bottom of the ocean.
Welcome to all the other "newcomers" here.  Hopefully we won't all make too many mistakes!

Doesn't he look a lot like Dan Akroyd? :lol:

Didn't say I didn't believe it  -  I said there are conflicting stories about it from the MB'ers and that I believed it probably happened.  

The problem here is the partying in the hours and minutes before she left, or directly afterwards.  People do stupid things they would not normally do when in a vacation setting; I'm sure we all have.  If I'm in a bar, and if I actively accept alcohol and or drugs, it takes that accidental death thing to a really muddied moral interpretation for those of us watching this. It's almost a chicken and egg scenario - understand what I'm saying?

[/quote]

OMG...LMAO...that is so funny sandy!

Sorry to be off topic...couldn't help myself on that one.

I did feel sorry for him in the beginning, but as soon as the mistress info came out, I sure thought he was guilty as hell.  I thought Susan Smith was guilty the first time I saw her.  She just didn't seem right to me and I felt a little bad about it, but I was very suspicious from the start.

This I can accept.  Thanks for explaining.

Because I was a major player in probably the very first Internet crime forum.  I know how important discussion and debate is to finding truth!  It's the basic premise in free speech...throw all kinds of BS around and sooner or later TRUTH floats to the top! However, my time is very valuable...and cheesecake-way-off-target discussions frankly bore me...especially when valuable bandwidth is at stake.  Many times peoples egos have an urgent need to "crack the case" they can't help themselves. The crazier and kookier the theory..the better.  I can't play that game.  Show me a theory that has been researched, has facts as it's structure and research to help prove the theory...I'm there!

A small victory....

Yesterday I filed a complaint with Yahoo because they allowed a Yahoo Group to exist that was extremely offensive with regard to Natalee and her family.  If you went to Yahoo/Groups and searched using the term "Natalee Holloway" you got a list of groups related to this case, but the first one listed was just horrendous both in terms of its name and its description.  I will spare you the details.

At any rate, I got this response back from them today:

*******************
We appreciate your report of possible abuse in Yahoo! Groups. We have
investigated your report and have taken appropriate action as per our
Terms of Service (TOS). For further details about the Yahoo! TOS, you
can visit:

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Please know that Yahoo! is unable to disclose the action taken on
another user's account with a third party. We are not able to make
exceptions to this rule.

********************
At any rate, the offensive group is now off the site.

Every day I am more convinced that the three suspects are innocent.

Interogation techniques are very during. They break you down and build you up .
I think they have nothing to confess. They left her at the beach . point.

If they have not confessed untill now for commiting a crime. I bow in deep respect for these guys being such diehards.

only what I want to know when where they aware for the first time that she was missing and why make up a story.

If would asume that the case would have been cracked by know with a confession.

The only point I am trying to make is that none of us 'know' anything.

And for a place where nothing is supposed to be shared about cases while they are being investigated we sure have a lot of stuff to talk about.  

I guess I am just trying to say until this is all over and the facts are known there should be no rush to judgment.  And yes, were mistakes made in the beginning, it's possible but when we become perfect then we can criticize.

No, I didn't. I can't claim to be a big fan of Nancy Grace like some here, but I did agree with her that it was very unusual that a man whose wife was expecting a child would choose to go fishing on Christmas Eve.

I thought that if the family were Jains, or Muslims or Shinto, that somehow that would have been mentioned with all the coverage, and in the US, many families who are not Christian still celebrate in one way or another. It is a day off, and the family can get together and eat.

I apologize for the off topic post, and I will strive to improve.

Me too.

Actually, I think the big picture of looking at how we intrepet the potential guilt of suspects is relevent.  Thanks for sharin' :)

[/quote]

I think so. I don't think that interogatting the students that were with her about wether or not she was drunk is the correct aproach. She was last seen with the 3 in custody. They know what happened after they left. The students do not. If it was a case of accidental overdose or a drunk related accident the students still could not answer. Only the 3 they have in custody. See my point?

No I thought he did it from the get go. I felt sorry for her mother

Good job!

Scott Peterson was another guy who could not keep his stories straight even before we knew about Amber Frey.  He also acted the opposite of a suffering husband and showed a strange lack of emotion considering his pregnant wife was missing 2 days before Christmas.  Reminds me of the VDS kid.

I think so. I don't think that interogatting the students that were with her about wether or not she was drunk is the correct aproach. She was last seen with the 3 in custody. They know what happened after they left. The students do not. If it was a case of accidental overdose or a drunk related accident the students still could not answer. Only the 3 they have in custody. See my point?

If she combined medications or perhaps some x, it surely is something those friends closest to her would know.  Girls talk, Perf.  A lot.  or didn't you know? :)

You are kidding, right? Have you read her entire post? She really does not think this story is news worthy.

 

don't know about spoiled but rich they are as many of them have said themselves on the site.  look at the demographcs folks, $100,000 median income, $375,000 median house price (not san francisco but not cheap), lilly white, 60 blacks and 106 hipanics (domestics?) in the whole place of 12,000.  rich yes and sometimes rich and spoiled go together.   note also that less than half the class participated in the trip for various reasons including parental permission and financial issues.

:::::loggin on and falling down from the loft:::::


Anyone ever find it odd, the since Natalee's mom truly believes she is alive, that she hasn't made a message on TV to her or those who might have her since she believes she is on the island?

Just something that came to me. Usually we see moms doing that along with trying to search.

Well in defense of my ignorance regarding SP, I wasn't watching the news much.  AFTER Amber Frey is when the wench discovered Nancy Grace.

Welcome to the jungle...grab a vine...and swing :)

She's doing it in person though.

^5, nancy.

like I said she is an idiot, she also wrote an entire book which included that the internment of the Japanese was the RIGHT thing to do, no matter who they were.

Not me.

I figured as long as we were voting I'd see if there was anybody left on the message board who wasn't still looking for two black security guards, Columbian sex-taffickers, or space aliens.

Do we _know_ that the stories the 3 are telling are different now than from the beginning - or is that strictly from rumour and msm? Can someone help on that score?

It seems like the boys owned up to being with her at the beginning (when the Holloway's appreared at the VDS house) and they said they dropped her off. As I try to think this through, every report of changing tales or lighthouse vs asleep on beach vs ... comes from tv soundbites. And MSNBC is reporting that the Chief of Police said Joran has not changed his story.

Just trying to keep "facts" clear in my head.

And Shellbell - good luck on the GB! Had a friend go through the same - once it was out, it was all just fine. So do you have a laptop to keep you tuned in during the tests? (adding a good luck to Nikibnurse today on her health as well).

I had posted a while back and have been searching the web since then but thought someone in here might have better luck than I have.  About a week ago the Carlos N Charlies site had a different website.  They also had pictures posted and they were all dated for the day they were taken.  They apparently have a new website - is there anyway the old website might still be out there??  I know there is cached stuff but wasnt sure how it would work if they actually have a new one with the same URL.

Yes but your missing the point. How is that going to find out what happened to her? Even if her friends said she took ecstacy and was drinking like a fish will that give us the answer we are all looking for?
The answer lies with the 3 in custody.

Actually Red, the site I gave you (the subscription one), has a forum where all the industry insiders post.  ABC, NBC, and CBS think Fox is nuts :)

That is wrong on a bunch of levels, scott was on TV and interveiwed etc.

You have seen JVDS walk to a car with handcuffs on. You have never even heard him speak.

No, I'm not missing the point. I'm not worried about an answer for me, I'm more concerned that Ms Holloway's mother gets the truth:  from both sides faster than it has occurred to date.

probably aliens proffesor you will see her probabaly in the next startrek .

They can't see it if it is on fox.

Since we can't know anything, storying changes I guess are a mystery. We can only have the first version, perhaps because they weren't suspects when questioned.

Really don't know anymore. I expect another story change report tomorrow morning  :wink:

Yea but we don't know what is going on behind the closed doors. The Police won't tell "anything" so why do you think these boys are innocent? I doubt the police would even say if these boys did confess.

I wonder if todays joint session was to tie up a few items before they take them back to the judge.  They may be close to presenting the case.

I saw an interview with Tim Miller, K, and he stated it is doubtful they (TES) will find her body but that they are willing to try. That was sad...

True.  And one also can wonder who else she met before she introduced herself to Joran Van der Sloot.

well nancy maybe you should start a site where bozos are not welcome.   some of these bozos are pretty astute.

Life is a mystery. This case isn't.

I checked that right after the site went down. Cached version will not show pics for some reason.

I'm sticking to my original theory.  Gang/Date rape drug/OD/Dispose of the body.  All 3 are in on it, and others know about it.

I believe what Deepak told the security guard....they truly thought she would show up safe and sound a few days later.

I personally believe that they made up the story so that Joran didn't have to tell anyone they had sex....to protect him and her.  Remember he was being confronted by Nat's mom very first night afterwards.  I think it's natural a guy wouldn't want to tell the mom....so he made up the next best thing about dropping her off.

I agree with "COCO" we have only been told the Story from the MSMedia. I dont know about you, but I haven't forgotten the Rather-Gate issue. Until we Hear form the Local Arubaian Authorities (Prosecutor) anything we hear is CONJECTURE at this point....I just find it hard to belive that an 17 year old kid could Hold up to a strenuoous Interogation for 2 weeks now..I don't think I could, do you ? Honest....question,,,honest answer..

GuyWdog

Yeah absolt...good point as always lol I forgot it's international  :lol:

Late greetings to you, ExTex!

However, my time is very valuable...and cheesecake-way-off-target discussions frankly bore me...especially when valuable bandwidth is at stake.

Well, when you have dialup, all bandwidth is "valuable". :)

Well, if they did confess , they would have cracked this case many days ago, and with all the pressure on them they would certainly have made an announcement of it. And steve croes guy is in jail for drugs pushing I am convinced of it .

ok are you a politician?
Let me break it down for you my friend.
Lets just say one of the kids that were with her confess, yes Natalie was taking ecstacy and drinking heavily.
Will that confession lead us to finding Natalie?
No. It may shed some light into her state of mind at the time she left with Joran but it will not find Natalie.
Once again, the answer lies with the 3 in custody.
They may be totally innocent.
They may be guilty of negligence leaving a comatose woman on the beach.
Hell maybe they gang raped her and killed her I don't know.
Obviously the Aruban authorities believe they know something there not telling or they would have let them go.
Discussing wether or not the kids that were with her are witholding some valuable information, when it doesn't really matter, makes no sense.

I'm there with you - Da Wench

The old site had pictures through May 22.  They took the whole site down before posting any more pictures as far as I know.  Now it's back up but no pictures.  I couldn't pull anything with pictures from the cached sites.

I'm not debating it with you anymore, Perf - you feel the way you do, and I feel the way I do.  So be it.  We see this differently, so let's agree to disagree and go along our merry way, shall we?

I still think it is worth looking at the security guard who was supposedly there when she was dropped off:

The add on the Tattoo's for sale web site does have a section on "Crime"
http://www.tattoopartycruises.com/pages/factfigures.html

"Crime  
Aruba remains a relatively small community that has managed to keep its crime to a minimum. While incidents do occur, Aruba still holds the destinction of being one of the safest island in the Caribbean. A recent cooperation between public and private sector has established a type of tourism police that monitors the main tourist areas to provide visibility to tourists (reassurance) and to discourage criminal behavior.
"

So, if I think about this, and dismiss any thread in my head about Joran and the boys and their inconsistent stories, and just focus on this for a minute. My mind says that a tourist, like NH, could be lulled into a sense of security in seeing one of these "security guards" near the hotel.  

I recall a series of articles about security guards in the US and how many of them actually had arrest records and in many cases women were being raped by the security guards businesses had hired to protect the office and it's staff:
1.
Guard arrested in man’s death
Felon illegally working at Walgreens shot shoplifting suspect, police say
By JOHN DIEDRICH
jdiedrich@journalsentinel.com
Posted: April 18, 2005
A convicted felon with a long, violent history who was working illegally as a security guard at Walgreens shot and killed an unarmed man accused of stealing sunglasses Sunday night, prompting a state investigation.


2.
Last December, a 41-year-old man sought a security guard's position at Allied Security Inc. The big contract-security company based in King of Prussia, Pa., hires about 16,000 guards a year to protect shopping malls, hospitals, universities, banks and other clients in 38 states.

The prospect seemed particularly promising because he had held a similar guard job with a rival company and lived in Philadelphia for four years. He showed up well-dressed and on time for his job interview. Most important, he twice swore in writing -- and again face-to-face -- that he had never been convicted of a criminal offense.

Allied Security hoped to assign the man to a local information-technology company. But the candidate was never hired. Carco Research, Allied's background-checking service, discovered that the man formerly lived in Michigan, where he had been convicted of drug dealing, sentenced to prison, then escaped, and was arrested and imprisoned again until his parole in 1996.

3.
http://mediafilter.org/caq/CAQ54p.police.html

An old Ethiopian Cultural practice involved abduction of a wife:
"In some regions of Ethiopia, abduction is an old cultural practice used to take a girl as wife by force. Typically, the girl is abducted by a group of young men. She is then raped by the man who wants to marry her, who may be someone she knows or may be a total stranger. The elders from the man's village then apologize to the family of the girl and ask them to agree to the marriage. The family often consents because a girl who has lost her virginity would be socially unacceptable for marriage to another man. Sometimes the abductor keeps the girl in a hiding place until she is pregnant, at which time her family feels it has no option but to agree to the marriage."

http://www.equalitynow.org/english/actions/action_2202_en.html

I suggest that perhaps .. just perhaps.. there could have been a security guard, who may have been of Ethiopian culture, or perhaps a Rasta who have an "Afro-Centric" culture and may imitate old cultures from pre-colonized societies in Africa.  

Could this individual have abducted her and have her held somewhere on the island as per the perceived cultural tradition would call for?  

Isn't that similar to the Elizabeth Smart abduction, and was that guy a rastafarian?  Didn't he abduct ES to make her his wife?  

It is a fairly regular practice in the Sudan as well, neighbors of Ethiopia. I am still looking for studies on the population of Aruba to determine the % of population that could be rasta or Ethiopian...



Special Groups and Slavery in Sudan

Nina Shea, U.S. Delegation
Remarks to the 57th Session of the UN Commission on Human Rights
Geneva, Switzerland
April 11, 2001
 

Mr. Chairman:

My name is Nina Shea and I am a public member of the U.S. delegation, appointed by President George W. Bush. Our topic today -- special groups and individuals -- covers many issues of importance to the people and the government of the United States. Among these are the rights of ethnic and religious minorities, migrant workers, displaced persons, and contemporary forms of slavery. Each of these topics is worthy of discussion in its own right. I have spent most of my adult life working on them, and so I am honored to have the chance to address this forum on matters that are of great personal and professional interest to me.

The drafters of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights believed that moral suasion, publicly exercised, could be a potent force for change. Since that time, reason, reporting, and dialogue have been the primary tools the Commission on Human Rights has used to spotlight the great moral, social and political issues of the day.

There is a great moral issue facing this Commission, Mr. Chairman, the systematic violation in Sudan of a long-standing, widely-recognized human rights norm. I am speaking of chattel slavery, and the way it is practiced in Sudan against women and children from racial, ethnic, and religious minorities.

Let us be absolutely clear: there is a major difference between the word "abduction" and the word "slavery." Abducting people means taking them away against their will. It implies nothing about what happens to them afterwards. Making slaves of people has everything to do with what happens to them afterwards. To be sure, both abductions and slavery do take place in Sudan. But there is slavery in Sudan, and this Commission must call it what it is -- slavery.

For the Commission to speak of abductions, therefore, and say nothing about slavery, as this year's resolution does, is to condemn the lesser violation and ignore the graver one completely. This is an abdication of the fundamental responsibility of this Commission to defend the universal human rights of every human being to life, liberty, and the security of person.

My government has made many interventions on slavery in Sudan in recent years, and our annual Country Reports on Human Rights Situations have repeatedly documented this abhorrent practice. But that is hardly all. In her December 1999 report, High Commissioner Robinson stated that Sudan was a country "where traditional slavery persists."

For the past 7 years, this Commission has had before it the annual reports of the UN Special Rapporteurs on Sudan. Each makes reference to slave-raids, details the treatment slaves endure, and emphasizes the Sudanese government's failure to put an end to this violence.

In the 1994 report, for example, the Special Rapporteur described how Dinka women and children were abducted by the government's Popular Defense Forces, the PDF, the Mujahedin and army units and then sold into slavery to northern Sudanese and persons from abroad.

The following year, the Special Rapporteur stated unequivocally that "the phenomena of slavery and practices assimilated to slavery… do exist in the Sudan." That report also noted the "total lack of interest shown so far by the competent Sudanese authorities with regard to investigating the cases brought to their knowledge over the past several years."

In 1996, the Special Rapporteur identified a pattern that "indicates a deliberate policy on the part of the government to ignore or even condone this practice of slavery." It goes on to state: "In most of the cases brought to the attention of the government of the Sudan, the reported perpetrators belong to the Sudanese army and the Popular Defense Forces, which are under the control of the government of the Sudan. Even in the cases involving members of different tribal militias, the slavery occurred within the context of the war and there are the same perpetrators and victims." He noted that women captured as "war booty" are in some cases subjected to "sexual slavery."

The 1999 report found: "There is enough consistent and credible information to ascertain the existence of slavery patterns in the Sudan." This same report also detailed the regime's arrangement with local militias and units of the Popular Defense Forces that escort the government's military supply train south toward the town of Wau. In return for their cooperation, he states, "the militia are allowed to carry out raids on neighboring villages and to keep the proceeds of looting as payment. The raids are very violent and the militia and PDF perpetrate killings, rape, and abductions of women and children. The women and children thus kidnapped are held until payment of ransom or are kept in conditions amounting to slavery." He also reported on forcible religious conversion.

He also described the "harsh" conditions for the victims, with "abuse, torture, rape and, at times, killing being the norm." They are "forced to herd cattle, work in the fields, fetch water, dig wells, do housework and perform sexual favors." Further, he stated, "the government is not taking measures to prevent or sanction the raids against civilian populations."
http://www.rastafarian.net/Sudan%20slavery.htm

Caligirl wrote: I checked that right after the site went down. Cached version will not show pics for some reason.

Thanks to both of you - that stinks.  I knew when I had looked at it the pictures were from about a week earlier and I kept hoping that someone might just post pids from the day we all want to see.  Most likley they were taken by the police.

If authorities could say with certainty to the suspects look we know what happen and you didn't do this. You only covered it up they may get to the answer much faster.

My logic is perfect.  :D
You can't deny it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Perforator ... Great Posting. Totally agree. The only time this is going to matter is in  the courtroom... to establish intent.  It is entirely possible that even IF a twosome , threesome or foursome occured on the beach it could have been consensual. It is entirely possible that NH WAS left on the beach asleep. It is entirely possible that someone other than Baby VDS and the Bros.  did something with her. Don't tell me that everyone in Aruba is tucked in tight by 12:00 a.m.

Update on Cannity and the guy with glasses and funky hairstyle

The family searchers are going to pinpoint a pond near the VDS house. It's obviously a dump site. Appliances , even a little truck in there??
Also talked about an area where an odor has been detected but I missed most of that.
THe search guy said that if Natalee was in the pond the dogs could sinff her out. Did ayone else get further details? I was kid of busy and not listening well.

LOl your logic is perfect, Perf.  You might want to take a class in negotiations though - it's easier to get something if you have something to offer....

You're making sense to me, perforator.

I just wonder, really, how strenuous the interrogaton really is.

Interegator:  So where did you leave her?

JVS:  On the beach.

Interegator:  Well, okay, but are you sure....

Even though everyone does not always agree here, I would like to thank all of you for such excellent theories and information.  The relaying of info on the current tv shows is also excellent.  I find more up to the minute info here than I can surfing through the news channels.

Keep up the good work!!!

Now to what I will proably take a beating for....

Would you folks give your opinions of how you feel that Arubans are doing on this case.  Are they forthright and honest?  Or protecting thier own?

I know this has been discussed earlier, however, we are now way into this investigation, nd I am curious as to how you feel now.  

Also, IF they are not handling this as well as they should, what do we as tourists in regards to traveling to Aruba in the future.  

please be kind.  I am only asking for opinions.  

Thank you and have a good night

Hannity and Comes; NH's father says he expects another 8-9 arrests....main one being PVDS.

No, I rather enjoy this site.  Let me be straight, I do not equate bozo with newbie.  In fact, I do believe many times fresh eyes, newbies and the like can come up with amazing stuff.  I adore when that happens.  BUT, I'll say it again....attacks on individuals with no factual basis is wrong IMO, taking off on tangents that are meant to dazzle and not solve the case are so unnecessary...

I've noticed many new voices pop in with very good thoughts...refreshing actually...but, they are many times run over by the "regulars".

And, I might add I have enjoyed much of what you have brought to the forum.

I feel sick.  Watching H&C about the pond and dump near Joran's house where the dogs will be searching.

If that was these case we would have seen some really nice and heavy police actions on t.v. With lots of public relations. At least to give some hints. And with the FBI around surely some valuable information would have been leaked by know in the u.s. If not only to build up some  diplomatical pressures

Greta's on...gotta go.

No, I rather enjoy this site

Riiight...where's that Internet crime forum you started?  I'd like to see it...it's kinda, shall we say, a career fixation of mine?

I can't believe they would be stupid enough to dump the body in the back yard.

Also heard that the prison is definitely NOT like the one in Midnight Express.

this is so sad...poor mom

and if the dad is involved, he should have his...

nevermind

I am just heart broken for Joran's mother! :cry:

:::skipping in circles around the forum throwing flower petals up in the air while singing the youngbloods, get together::::

Come on people now Smile on your brother Everybody get together Try to love one another Right now.. :::off key:::

 :D

:::almost finished the sentence for kerin....:# <--lips zipped

balls cut off

PVDS leaving interview for cell phone ringing, after sweat rolling down his face.....very skeevy!

Got a source for that?

go for it, RB. I will get the knife sharpened.

I know this post will shock you all:

IS HIS MOM HIGH? He doesn't drink? I got pictures of that. She is in a bit of denial maybe not about murder but who her son is.

Man, if PVDS is involved he has destroyed that woman.

lol ::pulling littletxlady in to skip and sing along::::

Just on Fox. Human Rights guy interviewed by O on the Factor. The guy said also the new prison? almost finished where they will be transferred and it is better, nicer than any in the U.S.

it was a Shirley Temple or Roy Rogers, Absolut  :D

And the father seems to be a "deaf mute"- not to be mean to people that are........... what's up with that

KackyLacky, Perforator, and Red:

RED:Yes, MM's post contains some points that I don't agree with, but also many others that are enlightening, from numerous sources. Also has lots of links to other sites that discuss case. We aren't the only game in town.

Kacky:
If you've read the book, I'll accept that opinion as an informed one. I've read it, I've lived in Japan ( long-term ), studied the topic widely, and realize she has a point. But, let's all remember that FDR was the architect of the Jap internment, ag the (nearly) sole dissent of a young Barry Goldwater.

Perforator:
There could be TONS of valuable info in what the MBHS kiddies know. It goes to her intentions, state-of-mind, etc. Definitely COULD help in finding her. Suppose nh confided in a classmate that she had a secret dream to go caving, or was pregnant, or was heavily into one or another drug. This would be predictive of her movements, conversations, malleability, and turn the search to some more specific locations, suspects, and theories. ALL info in a situ like this is good, mainly because we don't know its value until it has aged a bit. To cut off a productive avenue is silly and senseless, unless of course one is not interested in finding the missing person.

--MC

So they have two prisons?

Hmm...thanks!

I never knew someone who knew the law who didn't talk...

oops- looks like he might talk after all

I am too. I desperately want the truth to come out and for Natalie to be found but I feel so deeply for the parents of each of the kids involved.

Dublin - are you honestly trying to argue that Rastas took Natalee? and that Rastas approve of what is happening in the Sudan? "afro-centric"?

This is the most outrageous thing I've seen here yet - and amazingly racist.

Greta asked about drugs and alcohol, and the mother was adament that he did not do drugs.   She did not address the alcohol issue.

I never said I started anything!  RB, run off now, you've got a case to solve.  Stop sleuthin' around my life..it is not and never will be your business.

I'm trying to find online transcript for you, and watch Greta same time.
Human rights guy said new prison almost completed; they will be transfered there, but old one is no way like midnight express. My mouth fell open.

Oh my gosh I about cried watching her.   Bless her heart.  All the parents in this need our prayers.  Esp. Nats.

lol. My kids and I were just singing that the other day!!!!!

Great post.

I hope daddy VDS has a towel or something...he may need it

she never mentioned drinking...she mentioned drugs and smoking

::singing to Areosmith's janie's got a gun:::

Kerin's got knife................the whole forum comes undone...Paulus van der sloot is on the run....
lol

Sorry I think work and thinking too hard on here..has friend my brain again!

Me too, I want to cry for her and her Dad even having to fathom her being in such a place :(  :cry:

ROFLMAO

You can't misqoute Nancy, she was a major player. I know of a forum like that, it dried up because the leaders were dictators and ran off their hundreds of users.

this really  happend in a court of law in texas

Lawyer : Sir we you examined the body where you sure he was death

Pathologist : Yes

Lawyer : How did you know that ?

Pathologist : I was holding his brains in my hands

Lawyer : if their was the slightest possibilty he was alive what would he be doing right now

Pathologist : (sigh) he probably would be a lawyer in this state.

Does it have air? lol Just trying to at least envision that it must better hotter than hades in that prison with no air. Not that they deserve air but sheesh..it's hot there isn't it?

Yes, I truly feel sorry for her.  No matter what he has done or hasn't done, that is her little boy.

From what I know Hard Liquor is the Only Alhohol that is deemed unavailable to minors on Aruba. Beer and Wine are LEGAL for Minors to drink. I could be wrong but I read this somewhere..maybe our Aruba people can confirm this...

GuyWdog

How much clearer can she be when she says "I want my daughter NOW"
She knows that "something bad happened" to Natalee and she knows that the 3 men in the car know exactly what happened and where.  She is caught up in a nightmare of changing stories, an archaic justice system that anyone with money, connections or a brain can circumvent,  the colonial racist class structure, a sexist mentality that blames the female victim and a country whose collective ego must be stroked.  With all this lunacy around her, she still is the sharpest thinker and the most effective doer and is the class act of this sorry situation.

Fox News, H&C or O'Reilly, I cant recall what one. A Int'l lawyer has a client in KIA, and said it is more comfy than any prison in the US, it is brand new and state of the art, it is connected to an old part though.

momma asking good questions...wants to know why Joran and the others were not held immediately! why were they let go?

LOL! I'm an ole hippie from waaaay back. Still have the rose colored glass, love beads, a few flower petals oh and lets not forget the ever present PEACE SIGN.... :wink:

Oh, shit.  Did you hear what the kids mother said that the kid said?

"I'll kick her butt for all this trouble."

wow...she is wearing a Hope For Natalee bracelet

and they ASKED to talk to Beth and police said no.

Perhaps PVDS, the dad, is not allowed to say anything - by court order or the Dutch equivalent?

The mom is really in denial of who her kid is.

Here is the tacky comment but if the prison has air and his house doesn't JVDS may be more comfortable in jail.

You're not going to like this.....right after I picked my bottom jaw up off the floor and smacked my fiance for giggling that the info I had just given him regarding the place being like Midnight Express.......then the guy says the prisons are modeled after Netherlands?something....even get tea breaks. I couldn't hear all of this because my fiance then fell on the floor laughing hysterically.....rrrrrr

Are you so thin skinned that if anyone questions you, you can't handle it?  I have NO idea what forum you're talking about.  I'm heading back to the case...I suggest you do the same!

She didn't mean it like THAT!

I will be really obnoxious and quote what I posted this morning on this topic.

LMAO! That is cool! I always wanted to grow up then. *sigh* things were so different and carefree...

Diva, did you hear about 'tea breaks too?'

That was due to tactical reasons

You still don't say that about a missing person...period.  A statement like that only incites others...see.

Greta is teasing us.........

If the boys left Natalee off at the hotel - and saw her as another of those kids who come from the US and party - and they thought she just ran off or something, they would be upset if they believed she was just hiding or running off or something and leaving them to take the heat.

I think the parents are being very open - maybe they shouldn't be and maybe they will be misunderstood - but they are really something to open up like that - esp being part of a culture that does not live by reality tv, etc.

That really did happen; you are right. Funny stuff like that always happens in courts and depositions.

Sweatpea, you were the one who said you were and I quote "a major player in probably the very first Internet crime forum"  so I unfortunately naturally assumed by "major player" you helped start it. If it was the very first, what's the name of it? I'm curious since I have been around on the Internet since the age of 9600 baud creep and crawl bulletinboards - there ain't a whole lot I haven't seen.

You offered that information, I didn't ask for it. You've also offered up you write (or did) and I follow true crime and read a lot - I'd like to know if I've read your stuff, that's all. If you don't want anyone to ask questions, don't offer up such easy targets to ask about.

I'm not solving any case (nor do I exect to), I'm merely discussing the possibilities.  None of us here will do that, you see, because we don't have enough information or fact.  :)

I am emailing teh stinking "law" man's website and correcting him.. along with others! lol  :wink:

Leslie Sprenger  -- Good post!

ok...don't bash me...

BUT did it seem like daddy VDS has a harder time with English than Mom? and maybe that's why he doesn't say a lot? (not saying anything here about guilt or innocense)

And IMO, MOMMA WEARS THE PANTS IN THAT HOUSE

No I think my skin has stood the test of how thick it is. What was the name of that forum you were a major player in? I put my work right in my sig line. I am not hiding behind a fictional character on the internet.

Good tactics - the car has been cleaned up, the boys had days to get their stories straight, etc. Don't believe everything you hear.

Well, she would have to be alive to have her butt kicked.

I don't take offense to it. Hints towards her being alive. Only darn thing that has ever been said to lead to that.

Then again, I read too much into things  :lol:

Who needs air conditioning when you have windmills outside each window?

Yes, I know. I am saying it was strange to hear his mom say that he should have been held.

I think that his mom was answering the "does he do drugs" question, and she started answering and either ignored or didn't hear the "does he drink" part.  Mrs. VDS said that he told her he would not smoke or do drugs because he was into sports.  I don't think she was saying no to alcohol - she either didn't hear, or it was a side-step.

I never offered up ANYTHING.  Carry on now RB...you're missing this great interview on Greta....Great stuff.

Good point.

They said the new prison was attached.  To me that is what I would call and ANNEX.  It is supposedly pretty state of the art.  They called it soft time.

I agree. Thank you.
Also regarding interrogation...She also said the interrogation is very strenuous and threatening 10-11 hours. THey call him psychopath, murderer, where did you hide the body, we could beat you up and say it is accident. Interrogated without attorney.

LOL

The dad's English is not very good at all.  Part of the problem might be language.

absolut>==== you got mail...

exactly, K

That was me (re:Michael waldrip)  but I was referring to Nat's uncle, though her dad may also. (Not that there's anything wrong with that! :) )

Ting - I love your post about holding a press conference!

(and is your Ting after that glorious drink?)

Does anyone know if Joran or any of these boys have been tested for drugs?

Does anyone know what Natalee's parents do for a living?

Step dad says Joran wanted to help them, but Dad would nto allow it?

((((Mike)))) NIce to see ya!

OMG!
Greta interview with NH's stepdad.......wow! Revelations!

OMG.......No, Greta, no commercial.

MAN! Too bad there were no hidden cameras on THAT meeting!

This is a great interview.  Get you timeline out!  Whoa, he's revealing alot.

Soooo, Joran was willing to talk, but papa sloot told him to shut up?

Wish flies could talk! lol

Maybe they should tell Joran that 3 of the police are going to give him a few drinks, put him in the back seat of a car and take him out to the beach and see how fast that kid starts confessing!

Another K,
Isn't that incredible interview with stepfather?????  Wow!

absolut, check your PM's -

WHAT MOTHER OR WOMAN FOR THAT FACT DOES NOT WHERE THE PANTS IN THE HOUSE

Thank you! :)

I didn't know there was a drink named Ting!

LOL!!!!!!!

are any of you friends with lawyers? this is what I actually think a lawyer would tell his/her kid if in same situation

One thing I noticed is the hypocrisy of the stepfather, continually accusing Joran of gambling and what not. But yet where did natalee meet joran, in a casino.  I'm starting to think Joran might not have had anything to do with this.

Confrontations continue to the Holiday Inn.  Dad was asked to step outside and "stared down" Beth.  Surname person also constantly telling joran he does not have to say anything.  Wow.

I have a feeling if Joran's mom had not left town that weekend, Nat would be alive and three kids would have futures.


I am not blaming her, just commenting on how strange fate is.

But you are talking about comments from a very agitated, scared 17 year old.

so here I go again...

Considering Mr VDS' law degree, I do not find it strange that he would tell his son " you do not have to say anything" when the Holloways were questioning him. Any lawyers here? Is that not what YOU would advise your clients? And I know his son is not his client but I am sure his law training "kicked in".

now that's funny

who is Joran covering for..?
is he covering for his father
or is his father covering for him
did Joran have a gambling debt that he paid
using Natalee....
what is going on
I just saw his (Jorans) mom on the interview
saying her sone wanted to do everything he could to help
and when he was in school saying man if she shows up
i'm gonna kick her butt for doin this to me
now thats wierd eh?

Oh hi, Sweety!  I been e-yrs back!  Didn't see you here!

Just wanted to provide a very important comment! :? I got more, jes you wait! :roll:

Sorry, but I went to buy an old I mean old cottage that needed to be town down for 400,000 and in MB and was out bid on the house. I should know the area because I am in real estate.  A decent house is 500 to 600,000

Yep, and cocktail hor and conjugal visits. :puke:

You gotta wonder why Joran's dad was telling him not to talk at that early date?  Unless he knew there was foul play, what would possess him to ask Joran to stay quiet? And, one of the brothers was doing the same.

::raises hand:::

Yeah, it's actually typical I think. Don't know how it would be there..

Step dad of Natalie, confrontation with Jorans dad the day after Natalie is reported missing.  She' s just missing at that point.  They are not suspects, because at this point its a missing person's case.  Refusing to cooperate in a missing person's case, the question is why.

Ting or Tang?

Ooh eee, ooh ah ah, ting tang walla walla bing bang.

So, Joran doesn't drink, hmmmm?  Maybe he chugs!

Trying to picture "tea time" at the Dutch-type prison.  A little Vandermint, my dear?  Ooh, I love that little Delft decanter--can I have it for it my Pruno?  Would you rather some Cherry Heering?

Natalee wasn't going to school the next day, she had already graduated and was 18.  Joran is 17 and had finals the next day.  

This is not a personal attack but how can you not see a problem with that?

Talk about culture clash - Jug vs PVDS is classic. Jug and his buddies questioning the boys, PVDS being protective of his kid. Add in language differences - what a mess!

and I'd second the PVDS not being fluent in English - I worked for years as a representative for several EU companies and the EU folks who were not hyper-fluent in English were very embarassed since so many are better English speakers than most americans.

That's the first thing that every lawyer says.."dont say anything"....

He's not a lawyer though.

Yes that is exactly what I was thinking.

The stepdad that horrible first night says it is PVDS that was rude and says that JVDS wanted to talk to them and try to help?

Didn't Nat's Mom say earlier this week that JVDS was rude to her, by asking, "What do you want me to do?" with his fist on his chest.

Any ideas?

pardon my rudeness...Hi monkeys!!

I have a question. Am I correct in thinking that the charges the three are being held on now are: suspicion of kidnapping and suspicion of murder? I seem to recall kidnapping being one of them.

All Nat's dad is saying makes very good sense, from logic and human psych, first impression etc.  Why was Popa soooo defencive straight out of the gate, nnless he knew Urine was bad. ("dont say anything!")

writergal, you're correct.

nancy, he's familiar with the law.  Paralegals give their friends and family the same advice here...

Wohoo cause for ONCE I don't have any smarty answers tonite.. I gave my brain the night off!  :wink:

Just sitting back and watching "Rumble in Monkeys" hee hee

I'm not saying there wasn't a problem with that, only that it is hypocritical to judge one but not the other.

OOHH..great had a very good question...WAS Joran in school that day?  Does anyone know?

something happened swimming ?????

how true......

Yes he was.

That e-mail that was supposedly???? from Deepak seems to be accurate to the tiniest detail.  Greta's interview with the stepfather had the same information.

I think Joran knows more
I don't think he had the time to do whatever
he was in school the next day... at what 8:00am..?
from 2am to say 7am
5 hours..
he was pretty calm in school to have had passed his finals with good grades if he murdered someone it would weigh heavy on his mind

Yes that was quoted in a news paper article

So something happened swimming, he says, at school.....what the heck? So that's another story.
I think NH father knew what he spoke of last hour. There will be 8-9 more arrests, and this is almost over.
I wouldn';t have believed this if I hadn't just watched it.

How did things go today?

I think, too tired to look, someone said the bus comes to pick him up quite early? Anyone care to jump in?

1st That email was written in american english
2nd It had a sort of screenwriter narrative  

Doubt if it is trulyu deepaks

If something happened when they went swimming then why doesnt he just admit it.

 

sometimes even a tantrum will not produce the desired results. cops are not magicians.  they have to follow the rules.  they need leads and evidence.  they can do only what they can do.  chandra levy's mother wanted her daughter too. it was not possible for a year in Washington DC.    we have no certainty that the police are on the right track in Aruba and have no evidence that it is for any of the reasons you cite. people disappear.  they are not always found nor their disappearance explained.

We don't know FOR SURE, just like everything else.  He supposedly had finals, but his own father, who was in charge of Joran that day, as Mrs vdS was in Holland, allegedly, cannot answer that question.  He doesn't recall for sure whether Joran went that day or not.

There were rumors from posters on other Aruba forums that classmates said he had scratches on his face and was in class.  Not sure what to believe.

What was the part when they hauled JVDS in and headmaster present and Kalpoes too? And they said you were here but late and dad brought you,,,,,,,you need to come clean. Wow.

Yet the VDS father was the one who told Natalees' parents that his son was NOT at home and was playing poker downtown ( on a Monday night).  Of course when they went to the location that the senior VDS mentionnd junior was not there.  When the Twitty's went back to the VDS house Joran and the Kalpoe brothers were at the house.  That is when Joran said, while pounding his chest, "What do you want me to do!"

You can see how Joran came to be such a good liar.

me neither! Perhaps it was an innocent accident, but for the cover-up joran was involved in encouraged by his dad and deepak?.Was it the headmaster at the school who said he told joran to come clean? I got that part kind of confused

   Thank you very much. The reason I wanted to verify fthe kidnapping charge is that it could be relevant to the discussion of Natalee's condition that took place several pages back.
   If Natalee was badly impaired by drugs or alcohol when she left the bar, and thus incapable of making a rational decision to go with the boys, then yes, she might in a strictly legal sense have been abducted.
   If she was sober and capable of making rational decisions, and she went with the guys willingly, then she could not be said to have been kidnapped.
   This is why investigators try to find out as much as they can about the victim's behavior, state of mind, demeanor, movements, etc. before the crime took place. All those things can affect the charges that may later be brought against a suspect.

If a swimming accident, why in the world a cover up.  Was it at a rave?  That gets us back to the party scene and just makes it too comlicated.

I can't believe the govt would not have already searched that pond so close to Joran's house.

I remember seeing those.  Several were on the thread for NH that they took down on aruba.com, I think.

Yeah did someone catch this.

What in God's name does that have to do with the fact that Natalee is gone??? Get a life.... So what if they have money and she was spoiled ( she sure worked hard in school and being a tutor, peer counselor etc.) I don't care what her background is The fact is she has vanished into thin air Money has nothing to do with this.

oh if everything were so simple and straightforward as it is in Alabama.

Just my opinion and this has nothing to do with how deeply sad I feel about Natalee - but I saw 2 parents tonite and the one that totally irritated me was the stepdad - he just seems like the cowboy here - I mean at 3 a.m. he is trying to interrogate them - I understand that they wanted answers but come on - and I am not a lawyer but my little experience in dealing with the law is I would tell any of my children to SAY ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I don't care what the situation was - and can you even imagine the problem it would cause if the VDS went out looking for Natalee - I mean come on - the media would have a field day - they would only be followed and it would be very worthless -

Nicki! Hope all your news is good!

Ting - ting is a great caribbean soft drink made from grapefruits - amazing in the heat

and yes, any lawyer would say "don't talk" esp since some reports are that Jug and his "buddies" were pretty aggressive in their questioning. I'm not saying they were wrong to be but if the VDS assumption was that Natalee just ran away or partied too late, the intensity of the Jug crew frantically looking for Natalee could have caused them to quiet up.

I agree.  The part about her introducing herself to him, him not really pursuing her, and getting him to help her win back some of the money they lost, might have made her comfortable enough with him after the first 5-6 hours to get into a car with him.  Otherwise, nobody can really say why she would have gotten into a car with 3 strangers.

Maybe wonderwoman is Greta

Lawyer shmoryer!  At that point Papa should want to know what Urine could say to help these ppl find their girl!  That is unless he already knew there was good reason to shut him up!  Know what I mean!

Maybe he read the same email  :wink:

you know what...this could very well be possible.....it is a well known fact that even the best of swimmers going into the water under the infulence could easily drown

something 'bad' happened swimming..?

surinam bros drop them off they go for a night swim
he accidently drowns her..?
no blood means..
either sufficated, strangled, or drown

Not to take up for anybody but put yourself in papa VDS place on that first night. If indeed VDS, Sr. has no knowledge and a bunch of folks show up at your house, and, by their own admission in other interviews, these folks from AMerica are questioning you and son in a very confrontational way to the VDS.
WHat would you be telling your son?  Probably to shut up until I can find out what in the he!l is going on here...
And you'd probably duck cameras too. And stay in the house for pete's sake. Just my opinion.

Oh, no. I had never seen anything about scratches. That makes me sick. That's it for me. He did it. That was the thing we held out on here. My fiance is a detective, and I work in the field as a court reporter. We have been bothered that no mention of marks on anyone which is the biggest biggest red flag. This makes me sick.

Ain't that the truth...  :)


I know ain't ain't a word, LOL

If Joran was truely innocent, he should come clean and this would all end.

Well I would have been kind of thrown off a bit myself if what might look like an angry lynch mob showed up at my home at 3:30 in the morning.

I don't think for a minute that the e-mail discussed here previously was really from Deepak.  However, someone seems to know details that have not been in the media before.  Maybe a friend wrote the e-mail.  Review it...everything in it is looking to be accurate.  I am considering statements from Natalee's friends, her stepfather, her mother, etc.

That, and the fact that Jug said it was, by this time, about 3:00 a.m. when they went to the Whyndam to find Joran, after his dad said he was there gambling.  Gambling is illegal at 17 (Natalee was 18, so she was doing it legally), and it was a school night.  Who lets their underage child go gambling at 3:00 a.m. on a school night!?!?

Oh, no. I had never seen anything about scratches. That makes me sick. That's it for me. He did it. That was the thing we held out on here. My fiance is a detective, and I work in the field as a court reporter. We have been bothered that no mention of marks on anyone which is the biggest biggest red flag. This makes me sick.

Rumor only... No pics, no nothin'.

I'm going to go donate to EquaSearch again.  I am disgusted.
bye, All

He wasn't being charged, just questioned, Geez louise..

omg! I thought I was the only one to say that, lol.

OK I have not taken sides so to speak, but By God if this was my daughter I guess I would be considered a cowgirl, because I would leave no stone unturned. If this was my son, and I have one who is in Iraq as we speak, I would ORDER him to talk to the parents of a girl who came to my door in the middle of the night saying he was the last known person with her. I would MAKE him tell what he knew.......no if ands or buts, and if it incriminated him, then I would deal with that then.

But if you know your boy is squeeky clean, your first instinctshpuldn't be defenseive but rather concerned and perhaps supportive.  Papa was not!

RB Pictures of him did not reveal any scratches ,
what is the source is it reliable ?