Natalee Case Discussion #760 6/22 - 6/26/08

[always 1]

Does someone have that message from CAPS, because I thought he meant someone was there with him.

[klaasend]

http://www.modbee.com/local/story/337204.html

Law & Order
last updated: June 23, 2008 03:58:40 AM

STUDENTS INVESTIGATE LEVY SLAYING: A student project to investigate the 2001 death of Chandra Levy is receiving attention from CNN.com, which has created a Web site to track the project's progress. Criminal justice students at Bauder College in Atlanta are looking at Levy's case as well as the 2005 disappearance of Natalee Holloway, an Alabama teen who vanished during a trip to Aruba. On June 11, CNN.com rolled out a special Web section detailing the investigation. The students are pursuing the cases as members of the Cold Case Investigative Research Institute, an extracurricular crime club directed by Sheryl McCollum. The project will be featured on CNN's site through December. For more information, go to http://edition.cnn.com and search for "Bauder College." McCollum said tips about either case can be sent to ColdCaseTips@USACops.com.

Is the Bauder College group the "help from the States" that CAPS was referring to earlier in the month? 

No, I'm sure that's not who Caps was referring to.  The "help from the states" Caps said was arriving last Friday I believe.  I have no idea if that actually happened, just repeating what Caps said. 

[Tamikosmom]

The Mansur and Florida "research" has been going on, for years. Check Aruba Dirty Police, August 2006.

The fact that a connection, to Jossy and his children, has not been identified, on any government or legal document, speaks volumes.  All boards, pro and con, have been searching. I am also sure that Miami is a favored place of any Aruban (and South American) just because of the culture in that city. I am more out-of place in Miami than someone from Aruba.  It is very different. I don't necessarily think that all the people are attracted for the drugs and porn.  I am open to the possiblity.

I come from a large family, including Doctors, VPs of major corporations and yes, my brother K____, the bookey.  Needles to say, the FBI has visited several siblings, but K___ is his own man.

Jossy has written many books with deep love of Aruba.  It would not surprise me if he has given to island philanthropic organizations, including drug education.  I never researched it.

If Jossy did "nix" sending a copy of "the letter", it very well could be, because he promised anonymity to the sender.  There is a reason that some Arubans feel safe going to Jossy.  Maybe it is his verbal/journalistic reprimands of those in power.

I agree with mojo, yapperz1, 2NJSons, dennisintn, LiPuma and Janet. 

I'm not so sure Jossy has not been "verbal".  He did post a full page letter, from us, on Natalee's anniversary.

Thank you Buckeye.  Thank you on behalf of Jossy Mansur.  He is worth of being upheld ... not undermine ... unless Beth Holloway  says otherwise.

Janet

[wreck]

Jossy is an enigma.
I think he certainly has helped Beth and Dave (more so than anyone on Aruba.) I also think Jossy's primary motivation is to make the other political party look bad. I was/am completely flabbergasted that he chose Karen Jaansen "Person of the Year." He also speaks glowingly of Van der Stratten.
I also tend to think that he knows much more than he has let on since December '07.

JMO -- I think he has been blackmailed/threatened. He may be seriously sincere about wanting to solve this case -- but perhaps his or his family's past is being held over his head.

[Blonde]

Jossy is an enigma.
I think he certainly has helped Beth and Dave (more so than anyone on Aruba.) I also think Jossy's primary motivation is to make the other political party look bad. I was/am completely flabbergasted that he chose Karen Jaansen "Person of the Year." He also speaks glowingly of Van der Stratten.
I also tend to think that he knows much more than he has let on since December '07.

JMO -- I think he has been blackmailed/threatened. He may be seriously sincere about wanting to solve this case -- but perhaps his or his family's past is being held over his head.

I was/am completely flabbergasted that he chose Karen Jaansen "Person of the Year." So Was I
 He also speaks glowingly of Van der Stratten. Who IMO is bad news
I also tend to think that he knows much more than he has let on since December '07.

[Helen Back]

Hi everyone,

I thought we put the "Jossy" questions to rest this weekend.  The recognition that the address on Brickell in Miami that was common to Jossy's old business, the BangBros, and whoever else, was apparently related to them having the same attorney/registered agent. 

Those businesses were probably never located there, only the attorney who served/serves as registered agent of record.  It was his address, therefore, no link between any of the businesses, past or present, unless demonstrated otherwise.

BTW, I hope no one here holds me accountable for the actions of some of my family members......there are some dooooooozies!  (Most by marriage).........(uuummmm, one in particular)....... 

Regarding the The Karin Janssen woman of the Year Award, well, everyone is wrong sometimes.  That was just wrong.  I bet her family is hiding from her.

Van der Stratten...wrong again.   

[always 1]

Helen, now I see the pelican with the frog in its mouth.  But Ive always thought it was a picture of a darling baby monkey laying on a shelf holding his blankie in one hand.  Do you see that too?????

[Helen Back]

Helen, now I see the pelican with the frog in its mouth.  But Ive always thought it was a picture of a darling baby monkey laying on a shelf holding his blankie in one hand.  Do you see that too?????

No wonder my Avatar was your favorite!   
Now I've ruined it for you!

(I don't see the baby monkey, but I'll keep looking)

[always 1]

Helen, that is so funny.  I am laying here laughing because the little monkey has green pjs on!!!!!

[Tamikosmom]

Jossy is an enigma.
I think he certainly has helped Beth and Dave (more so than anyone on Aruba.) I also think Jossy's primary motivation is to make the other political party look bad. I was/am completely flabbergasted that he chose Karen Jaansen "Person of the Year." He also speaks glowingly of Van der Stratten.
I also tend to think that he knows much more than he has let on since December '07.

JMO -- I think he has been blackmailed/threatened. He may be seriously sincere about wanting to solve this case -- but perhaps his or his family's past is being held over his head.

I was/am completely flabbergasted that he chose Karen Jaansen "Person of the Year." So Was I
 He also speaks glowingly of Van der Stratten. Who IMO is bad news
I also tend to think that he knows much more than he has let on since December '07.

I believe you but ... I have never read or head Jossy Mansur uphold Jan Vander Straaten.  Are you able to provide me with a source.

Thank you.

Janet

[Helen Back]

Helen, that is so funny.  I am laying here laughing because the little monkey has green pjs on!!!!!

 

[LilPuma]

Jossy is an enigma.
I think he certainly has helped Beth and Dave (more so than anyone on Aruba.) I also think Jossy's primary motivation is to make the other political party look bad. I was/am completely flabbergasted that he chose Karen Jaansen "Person of the Year." He also speaks glowingly of Van der Stratten.
I also tend to think that he knows much more than he has let on since December '07.

JMO -- I think he has been blackmailed/threatened. He may be seriously sincere about wanting to solve this case -- but perhaps his or his family's past is being held over his head.

You say you think he has been blackmailed/threatened and bingo, Luis gets arrested.  So maybe you're right.  Or maybe Jossy doesn't know anythiing more.  Maybe what he knows he can't reveal for reasons we don't know.  Remember Dompig cooperating with Dave and then doing a 180?  Remember Jossy saying the rumor was that Michael Dompig was going to be arrested?  Jossy said strong rumor.  Michael didn't get arrested, but Dompig publicly said he lied and then he quit the force.  Hmmmmmmm  Even if you think Dompig is scum, there's something fishy goin' on down in Hugo's 'hood.  Maybe, maybe, perhaps, could be.  I want to emphasize that for all we know, there's so much we don't know.  We're all entitled to our opinions of people, but those opinions are based on some facts and a lot we don't know.  What is good, is that we stay alert, open to available information and keep our guard up.  It's good that we not blindly trust anyone.  Monkeys all want justice for Natalee.  So do Jug, Dave, Beth and JQK.  Everyone else might have other items on their agenda -- DeVries wants ratings and the accolades, same with Dr. Phil.  Jossy may have political motives, Patrick may have wanted to be the hero, get the TV interviews and a book deal.  No one's motives have to be pure to be on the side of justice.  No one needs to have a lily white track record in life to do the right thing. 

SS, IMO, you have some good points about the Mansur family and the harm done by drugs.  But I don't know that Jossy is dirty.  I don't know if his whole family is dirty.  And if they are, but Jossy wants to help get justice for Natalee, should we turn down that help?  Should we not thank him and appreciate the help he's offered, the support he's given Beth and Dave?  What if Jossy is dirty.  What should we do?  The DEA and FBI probably know who's who down there--could be why they showed up so quickly--but they can only work with locals, they need the government's permission to do so, and they might feel that their priority is drugs and money laundering, not Natalee Holloway.  They have to swim with some of the sharks to get the people they want, get the big drug busts before those drugs hit our streets, so maybe they ignore the little guys in Aruba to get the big guys in Columbia.  To sum it up, Jossy has helped the family.   He's spoken out against the bull that flows freely on Aruba.  If he's involved in something illegal, then he doesn't deserve the Great American Hero award.  If he deserves to be in prison, that's the job of ALE and the FBI/DEA, it's a little bit out of the monkeys' league.  In fact, that's waaaay out of the monkeys' league.  But turning down whatever information and help he can offer in this case would accomplish nothing.  Like law enforcement everywhere, maybe monkeys need to swim with some sharks to get the justice we've been looking for.  The drug cartels, organized crime around the world, is best left to the pros. 

[Tamikosmom]

I definitely believe that following Jossy Mansur's editoria in December, 2007 following the release of Joran, Deepak and Satish ... the editoria where he pledged continuing support in the pursuant of justice for Natalee Holloway ... something happened.  For six months Jossy has been suspiciously silence and ... his interview with Dana this month ... his word were very evasive.  However ... he did devote a full page for the letter marking the third anniversary of Natalee Holloway's disappearance submitted by Destiny.

Considering his unwavering support for Natalee Holloway's family in the previous 2 1/2 years ... I believe that Jossy Mansur deserves the benefit of the doubt from Monkeys that personal/ family/ health issues as well as possible pressures from the "powers that be" could imply that the Natalee Holloway case cannot be a priority at this period in time in his life.  Rather than any condemnation ... I contend it is our turn to provide Jossy Mansur with support through our words and prayers.

Janet

++++++

Jossy Mansur
Scared Monkey - Front Page
December 9, 2007

Jossy Mansur also made it known that DIARIO will not stop in the pursuit of the truth in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway. We asked Jossy Mansur, the managing editor of Diario, his opinion on this matter.

I wish I could give you a proper answer, but I have the same dilemma of belief in the prosecution. I don’t know how Moss could risk re-arresting the three suspects, give such confident interviews, speak with so much determination about his new evidence, and then suddenly is willing to throw in the towel and put an end to his resolve. Was it just a show, a public exhibition of “we did everything that we could, but at the end couldn’t”, prior to closing the case and attempt in the process to put up a front of “good intentions” and nothing else? It seems so from this new perspective that he himself has created. It brings to mind the opinion that “the road to hell is paved with good intentions”!

We at the DIARIO have been questioning other incomprehensible attitudes of the prosecuting department on other matters with concrete, documented facts. It has become obvious to us and to the independent part of the population that the prosecutors will only act on behalf of the government against its opponents, but never….and I will repeat NEVER against the corrupt Ministers and Parliament members of the ruling party. In short, the majority of the people in Aruba are convinced that politics has a lot to do with the prosecution’s decisions.

I said that once in an editorial against the Attorney General and she took me to court. She lost in the lower courts, appealed, and lost again in the High Court! I was upheld in that statement by four different Dutch Judges! And so was the mayor opposing party, the AVP, who said the same thing and was also taken to Court and also won their case against the Attorney General. I believe in the Judges in Aruba, but how can I continue to believe in the prosecutors when faced with such devastating facts? I am willing to uphold our system of justice, I am willing to go to great lengths to defend it because it has functioned well in most cases, but it too has to show me that it is blind to political influence and and any kind of pressure in ALL cases! And that is pathetically missing in Natalee’s case,

Mos may have thrown in the towel, or is willing to do so and not go to trial, but we at the DIARIO will never give up on the case until the truth is know about what happened to Natalee. The first thing I will order Monday morning is a total review of the case, from its incipience, and to put all the FACTS together, and that it be published, including the documents, admissions, interviews and other pertinent facts that are in our possession. We will give it our best to prove to Mos and his associates that the case cannot be closed while there is so much fact, indication and admissions in play!
 
http://scaredmonkeys.com/2007/12/09/jossy-mansur-provides-an-opinion-on-the-actions-of-aruban-prosecutor-hans-mos/

[KarmaRoundUp]

I definitely believe that following Jossy Mansur's editoria in December, 2007 following the release of Joran, Deepak and Satish ... the editoria where he pledged continuing support in the pursuant of justice for Natalee Holloway ... something happened.  For six months Jossy has been suspiciously silence and ... his interview with Dana this month ... his word were very evasive.  However ... he did devote a full page for the letter marking the third anniversary of Natalee Holloway's disappearance submitted by Destiny.

Considering his unwavering support for Natalee Holloway's family in the previous 2 1/2 years ... I believe that Jossy Mansur deserves the benefit of the doubt from Monkeys that personal/ family/ health issues as well as possible pressures from the "powers that be" could imply that the Natalee Holloway case cannot be a priority at this period in time in his life.  Rather than any condemnation ... I contend it is our turn to provide Jossy Mansur with support through our words and prayers.

Janet

++++++

Jossy Mansur
Scared Monkey - Front Page
December 9, 2007

Jossy Mansur also made it known that DIARIO will not stop in the pursuit of the truth in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway. We asked Jossy Mansur, the managing editor of Diario, his opinion on this matter.

I wish I could give you a proper answer, but I have the same dilemma of belief in the prosecution. I don’t know how Moss could risk re-arresting the three suspects, give such confident interviews, speak with so much determination about his new evidence, and then suddenly is willing to throw in the towel and put an end to his resolve. Was it just a show, a public exhibition of “we did everything that we could, but at the end couldn’t”, prior to closing the case and attempt in the process to put up a front of “good intentions” and nothing else? It seems so from this new perspective that he himself has created. It brings to mind the opinion that “the road to hell is paved with good intentions”!

We at the DIARIO have been questioning other incomprehensible attitudes of the prosecuting department on other matters with concrete, documented facts. It has become obvious to us and to the independent part of the population that the prosecutors will only act on behalf of the government against its opponents, but never….and I will repeat NEVER against the corrupt Ministers and Parliament members of the ruling party. In short, the majority of the people in Aruba are convinced that politics has a lot to do with the prosecution’s decisions.

I said that once in an editorial against the Attorney General and she took me to court. She lost in the lower courts, appealed, and lost again in the High Court! I was upheld in that statement by four different Dutch Judges! And so was the mayor opposing party, the AVP, who said the same thing and was also taken to Court and also won their case against the Attorney General. I believe in the Judges in Aruba, but how can I continue to believe in the prosecutors when faced with such devastating facts? I am willing to uphold our system of justice, I am willing to go to great lengths to defend it because it has functioned well in most cases, but it too has to show me that it is blind to political influence and and any kind of pressure in ALL cases! And that is pathetically missing in Natalee’s case,

Mos may have thrown in the towel, or is willing to do so and not go to trial, but we at the DIARIO will never give up on the case until the truth is know about what happened to Natalee. The first thing I will order Monday morning is a total review of the case, from its incipience, and to put all the FACTS together, and that it be published, including the documents, admissions, interviews and other pertinent facts that are in our possession. We will give it our best to prove to Mos and his associates that the case cannot be closed while there is so much fact, indication and admissions in play!
 
http://scaredmonkeys.com/2007/12/09/jossy-mansur-provides-an-opinion-on-the-actions-of-aruban-prosecutor-hans-mos/

Did Jossy review the whole case(what he has in his possession)that monday?
I'm all for Jossy,always have been and probably always will be no matter what is found out about him.He has helped Natalee's family more than anyone else on that hellhole.No one has shown this "Jossy owns 60% of aruba",I don't think,but I have heard this for 3 years now and even if he does.....so what.I wish Jossy the best and hope for continued good health for him.

[Observer]

http://www.radionetherlands.nl/currentaffairs/080215-holloway-confession

some of Peter's thoughts at above link
and some of the 'out of woodwork' opinions:

"as it's not even been established that a crime has been committed"
By Alain de la Mar

11-02-2008
At the seminar, both legal psychologist Willem Albert Wagenaar and professor of criminal law Chrisje Brants particularly criticised the methods used by Mr De Vries.

"Solved"
Willem Albert Wagenaar said he thinks the crime reporter, who claimed to have "solved the case" was too quick to draw conclusions. In particular, because "it is not even a confession".

Above all else, actually broadcasting the footage has made it more difficult to secure a conviction. If Mr de Vries had given the material to the Public Prosecution Office straight away, it would be holding all the trumps, as investigators would be able to question Joran van der Sloot on information "that only the person responsible for Natalee's disappearance could know. Now everyone knows".

"Madman"
Another point of criticism by Mr Wagenaar is that, in spite of claims by Peter R. de Vries that Joran van der Sloot would have to be a madman to say the things he did, there are people who lie about a statement.

Mr Wagenaar said it's not as simple as it seems. He described a number of situations in which people confess to crimes they have not committed. "Some people read an article in a newspaper and then say: I did it," to attract attention.

He also pointed out people admit to crimes to protect certain people. And then there are those who confess because of pressure from others. "They just crack," said Wagenaar. They even start believing their own lies.

One thing is certain according to Mr Wagenaar, "The case has absolutely not been solved." The idea that the footage is a confession to a crime is also premature, as it's not even been established that a crime has been committed.

Judge and Jury
There is something the Public Prosecution can do with the confession, said the second speaker of the day, professor Chrisje Brants. The Aruban authorities can follow up new trails of investigation. The footage itself would not lead to an arrest, because there is no evidence to detain him on. She mainly criticised the way in which the programme did more damage than good.

"Combating, investigating and prosecuting crime is a matter for the authorities," said Professor Brants. "But in his programme Peter R. de Vries is both judge and jury."

http://www.radionetherlands.nl.....egal-sloot

[texasmom]

http://www.radionetherlands.nl/currentaffairs/080215-holloway-confession

some of Peter's thoughts at above link
and some of the 'out of woodwork' opinions:

"as it's not even been established that a crime has been committed"
By Alain de la Mar

11-02-2008
At the seminar, both legal psychologist Willem Albert Wagenaar and professor of criminal law Chrisje Brants particularly criticised the methods used by Mr De Vries.

"Solved"
Willem Albert Wagenaar said he thinks the crime reporter, who claimed to have "solved the case" was too quick to draw conclusions. In particular, because "it is not even a confession".

Above all else, actually broadcasting the footage has made it more difficult to secure a conviction. If Mr de Vries had given the material to the Public Prosecution Office straight away, it would be holding all the trumps, as investigators would be able to question Joran van der Sloot on information "that only the person responsible for Natalee's disappearance could know. And it would have been like all the other "confessions" and evidence in the case....inconclusive...not adequate...and finally...NON EXISTENT! Now everyone knows !. Yes, now everyone knows the true nature of Anita's "delicious sporter"....no one believes the lies about his nature anymore!  This side of Joran Van der sloot would have never been believed by most....until they saw him speak of Natalee the way he did.......and so much more.  No one in the general public would have ever witnessed those statements if Peter DeVries had turned the tapes over to the Public Prosecution.
"Madman"
Another point of criticism by Mr Wagenaar is that, in spite of claims by Peter R. de Vries that Joran van der Sloot would have to be a madman to say the things he did, there are people who lie about a statement.

Mr Wagenaar said it's not as simple as it seems. He described a number of situations in which people confess to crimes they have not committed. "Some people read an article in a newspaper and then say: I did it," to attract attention.  If Joran made the statements he made to get attention; he asked for it....HE GOT IT!
He also pointed out people admit to crimes to protect certain people. And then there are those who confess because of pressure from others. "They just crack," said Wagenaar. They even start believing their own lies.

One thing is certain according to Mr Wagenaar, "The case has absolutely not been solved." The idea that the footage is a confession to a crime is also premature, as it's not even been established that a crime has been committed.

Judge and Jury
There is something the Public Prosecution can do with the confession, said the second speaker of the day, professor Chrisje Brants. The Aruban authorities can follow up new trails of investigation. The footage itself would not lead to an arrest, because there is no evidence to detain him on. She mainly criticised the way in which the programme did more damage than good.

"Combating, investigating and prosecuting crime is a matter for the authorities," said Professor Brants. "But in his programme Peter R. de Vries is both judge and jury."

http://www.radionetherlands.nl.....egal-sloot

Thanks ******* for bringing that over!
I agree that the DeVries tapes did not "solve" the case, but I disagree that they should not have been televised, I've commented in navy in some areas of the statements.

[Dayhiker]

Did Jossy review the whole case(what he has in his possession)that monday?
I'm all for Jossy,always have been and probably always will be no matter what is found out about him.He has helped Natalee's family more than anyone else on that hellhole.No one has shown this "Jossy owns 60% of aruba",I don't think,but I have heard this for 3 years now and even if he does.....so what.I wish Jossy the best and hope for continued good health for him.

Read the snippet below by Nico Jorg in his parting interview. This sums up Aruba's dilemma with not being able to cope with their corruption. I would not be a bit surprised if they busted Luis Mansur to shut Jossy up. This is the way Aruba operates.

This exactly why Natalee's case has never been solved, Nico says that the OM is helpless at prosecuting crime on anything above the street level because too many politics become involved. NOTICE WHAT HE SAYS ABOUT SMEAR CAMPAIGNS. DOES THAT NOT REMIND YOU OF WHAT THEY HAVE TRIED TO DO TO NATALEE AND BETH? It is what we've known all along, Aruba is corrupt because they are nothing but a good-ole-boy network. Nico knows it all too well.


Gloomy political climate 20 Jun, 2008

Nico Jorg: “I am under the impression that the OM comes up against a wall of resistance if they do more than just combating street criminality and get actively involved in investigation of the upperworld. It starts with a smear campaign in the media, nourished by politics. Corruption control is important for the country, because corruption slows down economic growth.”


http://www.amigoe.com/artman/publish/artikel_43593.php

[Dayhiker]

Thanks ******* for bringing that over!
I agree that the DeVries tapes did not "solve" the case, but I disagree that they should not have been televised, I've commented in navy in some areas of the statements.

I agree 100% Texasmom. If those tapes had not aired they would have been buried by the Prosecutor and never seen the light of day. We already know Hans Mos was ready to shut the case down and many like myself believe that was his mission in coming to Aruba in the first place.

If those tapes hadn't aired the Dutch, Americans and Arubans in the general populace wouldn't have been aware of what an evil person Joran van der Sloot is and what a corrupt government they had running the cover-up.

[Lala'sMom]

http://www.modbee.com/local/story/337204.html

Law & Order
last updated: June 23, 2008 03:58:40 AM

STUDENTS INVESTIGATE LEVY SLAYING: A student project to investigate the 2001 death of Chandra Levy is receiving attention from CNN.com, which has created a Web site to track the project's progress. Criminal justice students at Bauder College in Atlanta are looking at Levy's case as well as the 2005 disappearance of Natalee Holloway, an Alabama teen who vanished during a trip to Aruba. On June 11, CNN.com rolled out a special Web section detailing the investigation. The students are pursuing the cases as members of the Cold Case Investigative Research Institute, an extracurricular crime club directed by Sheryl McCollum. The project will be featured on CNN's site through December. For more information, go to http://edition.cnn.com and search for "Bauder College." McCollum said tips about either case can be sent to ColdCaseTips@USACops.com.

Is the Bauder College group the "help from the States" that CAPS was referring to earlier in the month? 

Good Question....I was thinking that it could be Them that Caps was talking about.....

Nope.

[Dayhiker]

Jossy is an enigma.
I think he certainly has helped Beth and Dave (more so than anyone on Aruba.) I also think Jossy's primary motivation is to make the other political party look bad. I was/am completely flabbergasted that he chose Karen Jaansen "Person of the Year." He also speaks glowingly of Van der Stratten.
I also tend to think that he knows much more than he has let on since December '07.

JMO -- I think he has been blackmailed/threatened. He may be seriously sincere about wanting to solve this case -- but perhaps his or his family's past is being held over his head.

I was/am completely flabbergasted that he chose Karen Jaansen "Person of the Year." So Was I
 He also speaks glowingly of Van der Stratten. Who IMO is bad news
I also tend to think that he knows much more than he has let on since December '07.

Both good posts Blonde and Wreck. I have two problems with Jossy despite a lot of admiration for him. First, his glowing endorsements of Karin Jannsen and Jan van der Straten are baffling at best because he even criticized the way they handled the investigation in his own newspaper. I liken this to Patrick's refusal to see the corruption when it's as plain as the nose on his face. Jannsen and Van der Straten had more to do with screwing up the investigation than anyone else.

Secondly Jossy never has never followed up on his commitments to release information. If he was threatetened, if his brother's arrest was a form of blackmail by the Aruban government then it is understandable. That kind of government corruption is scary. Once again, read Nico Jorg's comments. That is the way Aruba operates.