Kyron Horman, 7 years old, Portland OR #38 12/18/10 - 12/24/10

[Puzzler]

Personally, I think Kyron never left the school of his own volition.  From what I've read from the beginning of the case to today, nothing has indicated to me that he walked out of the school, with or without Terri. If they are certain he left with with Terri, she would be under arrest.

If LE has reason to believe the boy did leave with another person, they are certainly remiss in not sharing that information with the public.

I just can't figure out if Kyron didn't leave of his own volition, how nobody saw or heard anything. Sure there are different ways to subdue someone and get them out of a building, huge risk and chance on that day, but then with all that was going on, the person counted on nobody seeing. I don't know 

Would it be a huge risk if Kyron were wisked into an empty room or a space where most people do not go, put into a container with wheels and rolled out back - rolled out during the time that all the little groups were going around looking at the projects - rolled out in a container that is part of the school items and no one would think anything about seeing that item.  Maybe a container used to bring in supplies for the kitchen or a container used to collect paper trash from trash baskets in the rooms.

Huge Risk Puzzler.  Than they had to pick him up out of the device and place him somewhere in a vehicle w/out being seen.  Huge Risk imo.

What if he was concealed in a plastic bag? 

JMO but a "School Snatching" regardless of how and when would be a huge risk.

Not saying it couldn't be done but huge risk all the same.  I have to go with HelloKitty on the plastic bag.  If it was a pedifile he wants him alive mostly.  Plastic bags = suffocation.

But anything is possible.

I agree about the trash bags smothering a child, but a lage trash can like the one I posted with wheels on it would not.

KG~Good points about Terri's perceptions of those events you posted.

A trash bag wouldn't either...if it had holes in it for air to get through...or...if the bag was closed up "only" long enough to transfer from a container into a vehicle....only takes seconds to do that. 

 

[Puzzler]

Personally, I think Kyron never left the school of his own volition.  From what I've read from the beginning of the case to today, nothing has indicated to me that he walked out of the school, with or without Terri. If they are certain he left with with Terri, she would be under arrest.

If LE has reason to believe the boy did leave with another person, they are certainly remiss in not sharing that information with the public.

I just can't figure out if Kyron didn't leave of his own volition, how nobody saw or heard anything. Sure there are different ways to subdue someone and get them out of a building, huge risk and chance on that day, but then with all that was going on, the person counted on nobody seeing. I don't know 

Would it be a huge risk if Kyron were wisked into an empty room or a space where most people do not go, put into a container with wheels and rolled out back - rolled out during the time that all the little groups were going around looking at the projects - rolled out in a container that is part of the school items and no one would think anything about seeing that item.  Maybe a container used to bring in supplies for the kitchen or a container used to collect paper trash from trash baskets in the rooms.

Huge Risk Puzzler.  Than they had to pick him up out of the device and place him somewhere in a vehicle w/out being seen.  Huge Risk imo.

What if he was concealed in a plastic bag? 

Or a tote or case of some sort. Taking a child is a huge risk in and of it self. I would think to help lesson the risk, the child would be concealed in some way. It just makes sense to me know with what we know.

IMO - it goes without saying that taking a child is a huge risk - any child, any place, any way, any time, by any one - that's why it's a Federal crime and carries such a large prison penalty.

[Puzzler]

this post was in someone elses box. sorry.

I do not beleive that any Pedo was lurking the halls of this school.  If this were the case, he/she would have been a loner and someone would have noticed odd behavior of this lurker.  This is just too far stretched for my imagination.  Sorry but I just don't see a Pedophile going to a science fair amongst how many people?, and thinking this is a safe place to abduct a child. Not likely.  As far as the list of the attendees, I see LE doing this to eliminate just that possibility.  A complete list: therefore the scenario of a stranger snatching him is throw out.  Only one person left... guess who.

If there was a pedo lurking the halls of the school, what info do you have that tells us he would have odd behavior?  People like that are good at not sending out signals.  It was obviously the perfect storm, creating "the" opportunity.  Why do I know that?  Because no one saw Kyron leave the school - if they had, LE would have already arrested that person.

[Monkey King]

There are plenty of pedo's who are excellent at hiding their "secret". I believe the stats were for every pedophile who gets caught, they had 60 victims before getting caught.

[Tamikosmom]

If TH was strict with Kyron , God forbid him not complying with an adult in the setting of a school. Someone says...in a stern way, come with me...or a nice way, come here I have something to show you- I can see a child complying.

I suspect that Kyron was targeted and freely left with somebody he knew.  I do not think the abductor would take a chance on a scene if Kyron were to object.

Janet

++++++



Transcript - Kaine and Desiree Interview
06-27-2010, 12:14 AM

Pandora

From this interview with Kaine & Desiree:

<snipped>

Reporter - Kyron likes to go to Red Robin for mac n' cheese. He also likes sushi. His mother says he has had Stranger Danger training, but she fears he might not sense danger.

01:36 - D "He's had some challenges at school with listening & following direction, and so of course we've had to talk to him about that, too, and part of that is listening to your elders, unfortunately."

01:52 - D "If someone came up to him and asked him to go with him, I can't say he wouldn't because its a stranger danger situation. I don't know that he would recognize that."

<snipped>

Note reporter = Mike Donahue

http://www.justicequest.net/forums/showpost.php?s=6843858f1e9d1b7107b3c4a88047ccdb&p=411558&postcount=32

Video
http://www.koinlocal6.com/content/mediacenter/default.aspx?videoId=16956@koin.web.entriq.net&navCatId=156

[islandmonkey]

There are plenty of pedo's who are excellent at hiding their "secret". I believe the stats were for every pedophile who gets caught, they had 60 victims before getting caught.

And some are never caught kids are threatened or too ashamed to tell, so they don't. It's not like they all look like a perv, if so ppl wouldn't be worried sick. They are bankers, lawyers, pastors, coaches , like I say every profession and socioeconomic level has pedophiles most would never believe.

[shy-monkey]

I think Kyron just walked out of the school, maybe even "slipped" out to avoid detection...but it was Terri's idea.

1. Terri "leaves" the school at the first bell (8:35 or 8:45?), she says she watched Kyron walk down the hall to his class.
  
2. Tanner encounters Kyron on the stairs, Kyron says he's going to see a cool exhibit and it is electric. This would have been AFTER the first bell because Terri was no longer with Kyron,  but it was BEFORE the final bell when the kids had to be in the classroom to be divided into groups....because that is where Tanner was when the substitute teacher or chaperone questioned Kyron being missing.  

In my opinion, in that short amount of time, Kyron could only have gotten the IDEA to do that from Terri.  Why else would he be going to see this electric exhibit and not continue to his classroom after the first bell rang?  He had to have headed straight from Terri to his "other" destination.

IMO, Terri probably told him to go outside to a vehicle and she would take him to see a this cool electric exhibit.  If it was Terri's vehicle, then she may have told Kyron to hide down on the floorboard so he wouldn't get into trouble for not being in school while she ran into the FM's to bet medicine for Kiara (set her alibi).  What she did with him during the time she cannot account for...I have no idea, but I tend to side with Desiree and Kaine on that one.

The next day she writes her defensive  CYA(IMO) email:
“I said I was going to look at other exhibits - how do you mess that up?
His coat and backpack were still at school.
I left the school at 9 and
he was seen with a man ‘chaperone’ and 2 girls after I left.  There were no men on the chaperone list.
That and it was highly chaotic - had to been 300 people running around - no coordination ...”

What strikes me about this Tamil is waaaaaaaaay to much information.  This is exactly the kind of thing people do when they are telling a lie.  Waaaaay too much info that matters not except to someone trying to cover their "lie" bases.

Well...it doesn't look like she was TOO far off on her count of people there if you go by the names posted.  I come up with 213...she estimated 300.  Doesn't really mean anything but...

I've always thought it was too much information too, but couldn't decide if she attempting to back up all her lies with a minute by minute detail overkill, or if she was one of those people who lie so much, they overkill facts, in the rare times, they're actually telling the truth.
I've always thought in the *finally telling the truth* people it's because they get themselves all worked up, mad and defensive, thinking others have the same doubts about what them. Knowing they lie daily, makes them think everyone does too, so they throw out tiny details and insignificant facts because "how dare they! NOBODY will think they're honest and classy self is a liar!!"

I do think TH has a severe lying problem, she lies when telling the truth would have been easier. Most of her so called details and facts have either changed and/or made no sense. She says whatever fits her need at that given time and in some cases it's been the complete opposite.

The other thing that has bothered me has been her constantly taking the small details released and turning them into her own first person facts, so when retold by her they were believable. Like the wording from this email to KATU news

“I said I was going to look at other exhibits - how do you mess that up?
His coat and backpack were still at school.
I left the school at 9 and
he was seen with a man ‘chaperone’ and 2 girls after I left.  There were no men on the chaperone list.
That and it was highly chaotic - had to been 300 people running around - no coordination ...”

If you were to go back to the day Kyron went missing and all the total chaos, there were news stories, blogs etc all using the rounded number of 300 as a generic guess of how many people were there. Some hoping with 300 people someone may have witnessed something, some stories in an attempt to explain why the teachers couldn't track every kid, every minute. TH had obviously been online searching the web for what was being said, but she didn't write a "LE, or the teachers, the parents etc "are blaming lack of supervision on xyz", she wrote what was being said as a fact she'd thought of. Why didn't she think of it on the 4th then, when she was claiming to be so worried and going over the entire day again and again.  If that detail was an actual issue why wasn't a comment like "I shouldn't have left him, there must have been 300 people running around, it was highly chaotic" made before it was everywhere online? Which leads me to my next question, why she ever made it at all-

Leaving their child in this situation would have been a "hell no" with most moms who claim to be protective, caring, good mothers-"he was seen with a man ‘chaperone’ and 2 girls after I left.  There were no men on the chaperone list. That and it was highly chaotic - had to been 300 people running around - no coordination"   and in the event they did leave their kid in this, had their kid go missing, when/if they retold their story, it would be told as an OMG what have I done...why didn't I stay....etc TH uses this as just another *ha, see it's not my fault, it's theirs* excuse or defense story, followed by more poor picked on Terri crap.  

Edit to change red color to navy.  MB 

[sebastian]

Why did I think that maybe she got herself mixed up with some crazy persons?
She seemed on the verge, she resented the money and the time she had invested in caring for Kyron. She knew she was going to have to fight Kaine for every penny and she didn’t have the money to do that in a divorce. 
She told LS guy that she would have lots of money if Kaine wasn’t alive.
Did she repeat this kind of stuff to other persons? Persons she had just met, like in a bar? 
Oh, and there is some software that I hope LE can use to see who is looking at your FB page Like who goes to your page and who downloads photos. 
Maybe someone got the idea that Kaine would pay a large sum to get Kyron back.
LE was at the school very early after 911 was called, the FBI were brought in early also.
Her appearance at the first press conference: She looked like a frumpy house frau, her hair was a different shade, more orange than red, she had it done that week.
Add on the baseball cap after the gym, didn’t want to speak to the media.
Just all these odd little details, maybe she was mixed up with some bad persons and things became out of control, like a mishandled kidnapping and someone getting a case of chicken out of it.
..
Terri does have her perception of events, like a few minutes in the truck to settle Kitty down, she looked after Kyron when Desiree wouldn't ? We all know that Kaine wasn't giving up the custody of Kyron. 

I can understand what you are saying Kat. I always thought that there was a ransom note in the beginning. LE spending the night at the Hormans, the Hormans not coming out in the media right away, Desiree and Kaine so sure that Kyron was stashed. It would not surprise me in the least if Terri had someone take him for ransom and it all went terribly wrong. I think Terri is guilty of something. I think she was probably involved with Kyron's disappearance. If not, as I have said before, she is a selfish horrible person. She should have done ANYTHING to try to locate Kyron if she was innocent. I don't care if she was the main suspect or not. If she was innocent, why not fight for Kyron? Nothing against those who think Terri could be innocent. Some days I am on the fence, other days, like today, I am steaming mad that it is the holidays and Kyron is still missing and I have not SEEN or HEARD of Terri do one thing
to help find Kyron. Maybe she has done things that we don't know about, but you would think that her lunatic fan club on facebook would be shouting it from the rooftops.

[pdh3]

Here are a few observations, correct me if I am wrong.

KH's work schedule allowed for him to be able to work from home several hours during his day.
It seems that Terri and Kaine both liked to work out.
It appears that there were possibly more together hours than most peoples lives allow.
Kaine does not complain that Terri spent an unusual amount of time away from their home.

Kaine denies knowing DeDe Spicher, yet Kaine himself called DeDe and asked her to plan Terri's b-day party. Why?
Kaine and Terri had mutual friends.

Kaine shaved his head at one point during this investigation.
Note: I am not certain that he does not do that often, however, there are no past pictures that I have seen that would argue/indicate that he did.
If it is not normal behavior for him, is there a reason why Kaine shaved his head?

I think Kaine shaves his head fairly often - he has commented that Kyron liked to watch him shave his head.

What difference does it make about Kaine's hair?  It's totally irrelevant.

Kaine is not a suspect. He's a heartbroken father of a missing child.

[Tracygirl]

this post was in someone elses box. sorry.

I do not beleive that any Pedo was lurking the halls of this school.  If this were the case, he/she would have been a loner and someone would have noticed odd behavior of this lurker.  This is just too far stretched for my imagination.  Sorry but I just don't see a Pedophile going to a science fair amongst how many people?, and thinking this is a safe place to abduct a child. Not likely.  As far as the list of the attendees, I see LE doing this to eliminate just that possibility.  A complete list: therefore the scenario of a stranger snatching him is throw out.  Only one person left... guess who.

And I disagree with you. I think this would be like Disneyland for a pedophile.

[sebastian]

Here are a few observations, correct me if I am wrong.

KH's work schedule allowed for him to be able to work from home several hours during his day.
It seems that Terri and Kaine both liked to work out.
It appears that there were possibly more together hours than most peoples lives allow.
Kaine does not complain that Terri spent an unusual amount of time away from their home.

Kaine denies knowing DeDe Spicher, yet Kaine himself called DeDe and asked her to plan Terri's b-day party. Why?
Kaine and Terri had mutual friends.

Kaine shaved his head at one point during this investigation.
Note: I am not certain that he does not do that often, however, there are no past pictures that I have seen that would argue/indicate that he did.
If it is not normal behavior for him, is there a reason why Kaine shaved his head?

I think Kaine shaves his head fairly often - he has commented that Kyron liked to watch him shave his head.

What difference does it make about Kaine's hair?  It's totally irrelevant.
Kaine is not a suspect. He's a heartbroken father of a missing child.

What may be irrelevant to you, may be relevant to another poster.

[sebastian]

this post was in someone elses box. sorry.

I do not beleive that any Pedo was lurking the halls of this school.  If this were the case, he/she would have been a loner and someone would have noticed odd behavior of this lurker.  This is just too far stretched for my imagination.  Sorry but I just don't see a Pedophile going to a science fair amongst how many people?, and thinking this is a safe place to abduct a child. Not likely.  As far as the list of the attendees, I see LE doing this to eliminate just that possibility.  A complete list: therefore the scenario of a stranger snatching him is throw out.  Only one person left... guess who.

And I disagree with you. I think this would be like Disneyland for a pedophile.

I agree with you Tracygirl. I think that there were too many people that day for everyone to be paying close attention. Hence, Kyron vanishing, seemingly into thin air.

[Tracygirl]

If TH was strict with Kyron , God forbid him not complying with an adult in the setting of a school. Someone says...in a stern way, come with me...or a nice way, come here I have something to show you- I can see a child complying.

Me too, unfortunately. He was only 7 at the time and in 2nd grade put that together with his being shy and a bit timid and having it rammed into his head to listen to the adults at the school and I can see a vulnerable child.

[Tracygirl]

this post was in someone elses box. sorry.

I do not beleive that any Pedo was lurking the halls of this school.  If this were the case, he/she would have been a loner and someone would have noticed odd behavior of this lurker.  This is just too far stretched for my imagination.  Sorry but I just don't see a Pedophile going to a science fair amongst how many people?, and thinking this is a safe place to abduct a child. Not likely.  As far as the list of the attendees, I see LE doing this to eliminate just that possibility.  A complete list: therefore the scenario of a stranger snatching him is throw out.  Only one person left... guess who.

If there was a pedo lurking the halls of the school, what info do you have that tells us he would have odd behavior?  People like that are good at not sending out signals.  It was obviously the perfect storm, creating "the" opportunity.  Why do I know that?  Because no one saw Kyron leave the school - if they had, LE would have already arrested that person.

If only a pedo would be obvious. Terri said Kyron was seen with a man and 2 girls. IF that is true and if that is who took Kyron, then it is obvious the man was trying to fit in as he had 2 other children with him. Of course we don't know if that is truth or if it was Terri trying to cover for a crime she did.

[Shell]

this post was in someone elses box. sorry.

I do not beleive that any Pedo was lurking the halls of this school.  If this were the case, he/she would have been a loner and someone would have noticed odd behavior of this lurker.  This is just too far stretched for my imagination.  Sorry but I just don't see a Pedophile going to a science fair amongst how many people?, and thinking this is a safe place to abduct a child. Not likely.  As far as the list of the attendees, I see LE doing this to eliminate just that possibility.  A complete list: therefore the scenario of a stranger snatching him is throw out.  Only one person left... guess who.

And I disagree with you. I think this would be like Disneyland for a pedophile.

I agree with you Tracygirl. I think that there were too many people that day for everyone to be paying close attention. Hence, Kyron vanishing, seemingly into thin air.

I agree

[Shell]

If TH was strict with Kyron , God forbid him not complying with an adult in the setting of a school. Someone says...in a stern way, come with me...or a nice way, come here I have something to show you- I can see a child complying.

Me too, unfortunately. He was only 7 at the time and in 2nd grade put that together with his being shy and a bit timid and having it rammed into his head to listen to the adults at the school and I can see a vulnerable child.

Tracygirl...Amber keeps going through my mind facing JG with his anger and obeying him by getting in the car...he told her it would be worse if she did not get in the car...but that was sadly not the case.

[Tracygirl]

Here are a few observations, correct me if I am wrong.

KH's work schedule allowed for him to be able to work from home several hours during his day.
It seems that Terri and Kaine both liked to work out.
It appears that there were possibly more together hours than most peoples lives allow.
Kaine does not complain that Terri spent an unusual amount of time away from their home.

Kaine denies knowing DeDe Spicher, yet Kaine himself called DeDe and asked her to plan Terri's b-day party. Why?
Kaine and Terri had mutual friends.

Kaine shaved his head at one point during this investigation.
Note: I am not certain that he does not do that often, however, there are no past pictures that I have seen that would argue/indicate that he did.
If it is not normal behavior for him, is there a reason why Kaine shaved his head?

I think Kaine shaves his head fairly often - he has commented that Kyron liked to watch him shave his head.

What difference does it make about Kaine's hair?  It's totally irrelevant.

Kaine is not a suspect. He's a heartbroken father of a missing child.

I am not sure what difference it makes. Could be nothing, could be something. I actually think he is shaving his hair and eyebrows because it is a fad of sorts. But just because I think that doesn't make it so, just as your opinions do not equal truth.

[Tracygirl]

this post was in someone elses box. sorry.

I do not beleive that any Pedo was lurking the halls of this school.  If this were the case, he/she would have been a loner and someone would have noticed odd behavior of this lurker.  This is just too far stretched for my imagination.  Sorry but I just don't see a Pedophile going to a science fair amongst how many people?, and thinking this is a safe place to abduct a child. Not likely.  As far as the list of the attendees, I see LE doing this to eliminate just that possibility.  A complete list: therefore the scenario of a stranger snatching him is throw out.  Only one person left... guess who.

And I disagree with you. I think this would be like Disneyland for a pedophile.

I agree with you Tracygirl. I think that there were too many people that day for everyone to be paying close attention. Hence, Kyron vanishing, seemingly into thin air.

He did vanish, poof and he was gone. The last sighting of him was at 9 when he passed a student in the hall as he made his way to see a "cool electric one". His going down those stairs, into an area away from people just send chills down my spine.
How sad that is too. Can't you just imagine a little boy all excited and telling his little friend he was going to see this cool project? I can imagine my son doing just that. It sounds like such a trusting and innocent moment, just a child being a child. Someone, whoever it was, used that innocence and trust to benefit them. I want that person arrested, found guilty and put to death. I honestly don't care who it was, it could be Santa or the Easter Bunny and I would say the same thing.

[Tracygirl]

If TH was strict with Kyron , God forbid him not complying with an adult in the setting of a school. Someone says...in a stern way, come with me...or a nice way, come here I have something to show you- I can see a child complying.

Me too, unfortunately. He was only 7 at the time and in 2nd grade put that together with his being shy and a bit timid and having it rammed into his head to listen to the adults at the school and I can see a vulnerable child.

Tracygirl...Amber keeps going through my mind facing JG with his anger and obeying him by getting in the car...he told her it would be worse if she did not get in the car...but that was sadly not the case.

I spent so much time in Ambers folder, I feel as though I know Amber. For as long as I live, I will never forget her.

[Shell]

If TH was strict with Kyron , God forbid him not complying with an adult in the setting of a school. Someone says...in a stern way, come with me...or a nice way, come here I have something to show you- I can see a child complying.

Me too, unfortunately. He was only 7 at the time and in 2nd grade put that together with his being shy and a bit timid and having it rammed into his head to listen to the adults at the school and I can see a vulnerable child.

Tracygirl...Amber keeps going through my mind facing JG with his anger and obeying him by getting in the car...he told her it would be worse if she did not get in the car...but that was sadly not the case.

I spent so much time in Ambers folder, I feel as though I know Amber. For as long as I live, I will never forget her.

I think of her often. I will forever associate her with a sweet baby lamb. Goodnight, this lady is sleepy.