Natalee Case Discussion #781 12/3/08 - 12/5/08

[SS]

Lou

My take:

Until just prior to Kermit releasing images that were spared from destruction by the ALE ... it is my undrstanding that the FBI and/or Natalee's family knew nothing of their existence ... nobody but Kyle who was attempting make deals with some networks.  I believe that was the whole issue.

Why do we believe that FBI or family did not see these? I don't know the dynamics at all of who taped what on the boat...I really don't. Was Kyle doing all the taping? Who hid the images? What was the motive? I would think if you wanted to make $$...there would be MUCh more made IF it truely were Natalee.

I do know that Jug saw them when we e-mailed them to him. So I know they have seen them now...and they still have the same conclusion...Natalee was not in the cage. The family knows much more than we think they know...that I know!! lol If Natalee were in that cage...Beth would be all over it!!!

Kermit believed that the FBI and/or Natalee's family should have been on the receiving end of these withheld images.  Obviously, Kyle must have believe that there was something significant related to the Natalee Holloway case that was revealed in these images or ... he would not be attempting to make a deal with a network.

My understanding is, that they were trying to raise funds to go back and continue the search...there were many targets that were hopeful they did not have the money to look into when they had to quit. That is my understanding of trying to sell the images...it had nothing to do with photos that were kept from the family or FBI.

Lou ... there were five initial images that Kyle sent to the FBI way back when and ... these were the images that the FBI released to Dave Holloway and ... then his wife posted them on the internet.  However ... the recently released images that Kermit posted had not been sent to the family and/or the FBI.

That we know of. Again...Jug was not shocked or alarmed by them. I didn't ask him if he had seen them before..because quite frankly...he thought the whole thing rediculous..and when he does...he makes his point and ends the conversation and moves on to the next point ..lol

Lou ... nobody knows what the actual contents of that cage was except the ALE.  However ... the images obtained by the ROV prior to the dive ... convinced Tim Miller there was a skull in that cage

But something else caused him to go on National tv...and with a broken heart...admit he had jumped the gun..and to say his biggest regret was jumping the gun and calling Dave before he was absolutely sure. Do you remember that interview? I wish we could find it again

Janet 

Lou -

I think we are all in agreement that the original five photographs were sent to the family and they were posted by Robin on BFN.  I think Kermit's issue is that there were/are additional photographs that clearly show denim, etc.  This was not clear in the original five photographs.  I am not trying to speak for Kermit, but rather explain what I interpreted that she was telling us.  I think her concerns were that Kyle, himself, was initially concerned that information had not been shared with the H/Ts and the FBI.  I have understood that Kyle approached Kermit for help in getting this information to the family and the FBI.  However, according to Kermit, Kyle changed his mind and instead withheld the additional photographs.  Kyle also reported to Kermit that Louis had sold photographs for a documentary and Kyle attempted to broker photographs.  I could be incorrect, but I interpreted what Kermit said as she (Kermit) was the one who gave Beth the remaining photographs after Kyle chose not to.  I think that this is the big problem here and more so than the debate as to whether or not Natalee's remains were in the cage.  I think that the big issue is that information/photographs were withheld from the family and the FBI, and that because ALE has possession of the cage contents, there is no way to know what was actually in the cage.  I have intrepeted this as the big issue here.

[AZLady]

I do think we are watching an Aruban power struggle of huge proportions.  Remember when Oduber was elected, he very shortly tried to move Rudy Croes to a different ministerial position?  One with less power.  Croes won and stayed as Minister of Justice.  I think Croes outing his own Police Chief, Van der Stratten, as corrupt is an attempt to provide a scapegoat.  The corruption goes all the way to and includes Rudy Croes.  Croes is trying to save his own skin by throwing Van der Stratten and others to the mob.  It won't work. 

[crazybabyborg]

One of the burning questions in my mind is this:

OK, we have people who know what happened pointing fingers at each other.

No question there has been SLOW and TEDIOUS progress and none of it from any law enforcement official in this entire case. Progress has come from DeVries and Joran's motor mouth. BUT, I can't discount that at this juncture, the world has heard Joran admit he has involvement in Natalee's demise. That's a far cry from where this case once was.

So, what now? Will anything come of it?

That's my burning question.

[billb's daughter]

I posted this late the other night and I want to bring it forward, as I believe both Kermits and CAPS versions can be put together in a way that both may have pieces of truth in the disappearance of Natalee....for what it is worth. MOO
Please understand...I'm not taking sides, and I really feel uncomfortable when I see long time valued Monkeys seemly in disagreement with each other and calling one another out. What I also take away from this post is that, bottom line, Persistence's mission (searching for Natalee) was a success, and FBI is abreast of the situation. I did say that I agreed with the global picture Kermit was promoting, but that does not mean the I unconditionally discard the picture CAPS has pushed forward. In my opinion, pieces of both can mesh together...CAPS vision of the crime, remains found in the cage, possible remains recovered by ALE in Dec/Jan and/or other remains ending up in CAPS cemetery theory.   I do believe remains were moved multiple times. Thanks again. V/r, billb

I'll just keep posting late at night....no one argues with my theories and I feel good knowing that everyone accepts my brilliance! LOL
I am excited by the apparent meltdown being exhibited by rudy, mos...pressure turned up by Greta(got to admit-I really couldn't forgive or watch her after she was inclined - but she is wining me back)/JQK and hope it truly does root out all those that covered up (kj, jvds, pdvs, king, witt, rudy, pm, dompig, richardson, mos, pimps and enabling parents....just to name a few...)...Holland-where r u?
I hate them all.....

[AZLady]

SS, add to your assessment that the pics show pieces of a blue denim fabric--named as such by Kyle.  The FBI was not sent blue denim fabric, but a fabric they said did not match Natalee's blouse.  It appears the FBI did not receive what is seen in the pics that Kermit posted and Kyle said he saw.

[Agraria]

Rudy Croes is a politician, and they go with the way the wind blows and hopefully are a little ahead of the wind.

Rudy may be reading the tea leaves and wants to premptively get ahead of what's coming. I don't think this is a giant coordinated conspiracy. It is a lot of sewn together CYA's but if someone in Holland is interested, no doubt people in Aruba don't want to be on the wrong end of someone's wrath.

And that changes and could be changing. If Rudy Croes backs off, it's because whoever holds sway at the moment, is asking him to. If not, maybe the Aruba budget has been moved to someone else's P&L.

Frank...very possibly . Did you read this today? I thought it was very interesting. Has the heat been turned up til they are all finally turning on each other?

http://www.radionetherlands.nl/currentaffairs/region/netherlands/081204-Holloway-Croes

Police officer thwarted Holloway investigation

RNW NEWS

04-12-2008

Dutch police commissioner Jan van der Straten actively frustrated investigations on the island of Aruba into the disappearance of US teenager Natalee Holloway.

Minister Rudy Croes
Rudy Croes: critical
Aruba's Justice Minister Rudy Croes confirmed on Thursday that Van der Straten delayed the start of investigations in order to protect his friend, Paulus van der Sloot, the father of Joran who is the main suspect in the case. Paulus was working for the Justice Ministry at the time.

Minister Croes made his public statement about the commissioner's dallying following critical remarks by Van der Straten about Aruba's police. Shortly after Natalee's disappearance in 2005, the Dutch police commissioner was overheard saying "I cannot do this to my friend Paul".

The Justice Minister says there were remarkably frequent phone conversations between Jan van der Straten and Paul van der Sloot in the first days after the American teenager went missing.

Carnival policemen
In more detailed criticism, Minister Croes accuses Commissioner Van der Straten of putting a "second rate police team" on the Holloway case. The team consisted of part-time policemen who are hired in to help the regular force during events like carnivals.

The Dutch government is also blamed by Minister Croes for giving insufficient moral support to the Aruban authorities:
"They stand by while Aruba's name is being dragged through the mud. We were asked in 2005 to hide the fact that Joran is a Dutchman. A Dutch minister - I won't say who - personally asked us to present Joran as an Aruban."

Justice Minister Rudy Croes is known for his critical attitude towards the Dutch, Aruba's former coloniser. He said in 2007 that he was in favour of breaking off Aruba's relations with the Netherlands. The statement caused an uproar, coming as it did while negotiations with the Netherlands were going on.

A new political division of the Kingdom of the Netherlands will come into force on 15 December 2010. Aruba will remain a separate country within the Kingdom.

[AZLady]

One of the burning questions in my mind is this:

OK, we have people who know what happened pointing fingers at each other.

No question there has been SLOW and TEDIOUS progress and none of it from any law enforcement official in this entire case. Progress has come from DeVries and Joran's motor mouth. BUT, I can't discount that at this juncture, the world has heard Joran admit he has involvement in Natalee's demise. That's a far cry from where this case once was.

So, what now? Will anything come of it?

That's my burning question.

It does look like Joran was exiled from Aruba, his family and friends, and his patience ran out.  We knew he would explode one day.  I think Joran feels he's thrown down the gauntlet but he's really opened the can of worms and shaken them out.  Justice is so close.

[Tamikosmom]

Lou -

I think we are all in agreement that the original five photographs were sent to the family and they were posted by Robin on BFN.  I think Kermit's issue is that there were/are additional photographs that clearly show denim, etc.  This was not clear in the original five photographs.  I am not trying to speak for Kermit, but rather explain what I interpreted that she was telling us.  I think her concerns were that Kyle, himself, was initially concerned that information had not been shared with the H/Ts and the FBI.  I have understood that Kyle approached Kermit for help in getting this information to the family and the FBI.  However, according to Kermit, Kyle changed his mind and instead withheld the additional photographs.  Kyle also reported to Kermit that Louis had sold photographs for a documentary and Kyle attempted to broker photographs.  I could be incorrect, but I interpreted what Kermit said as she (Kermit) was the one who gave Beth the remaining photographs after Kyle chose not to.  I think that this is the big problem here and more so than the debate as to whether or not Natalee's remains were in the cage.  I think that the big issue is that information/photographs were withheld from the family and the FBI, and that because ALE has possession of the cage contents, there is no way to know what was actually in the cage.  I have intrepeted this as the big issue here.

Thanks you SS.

Good Night.

I really am off this time.

Janet

[SS]

I posted this late the other night and I want to bring it forward, as I believe both Kermits and CAPS versions can be put together in a way that both may have pieces of truth in the disappearance of Natalee....for what it is worth. MOO
Please understand...I'm not taking sides, and I really feel uncomfortable when I see long time valued Monkeys seemly in disagreement with each other and calling one another out. What I also take away from this post is that, bottom line, Persistence's mission (searching for Natalee) was a success, and FBI is abreast of the situation. I did say that I agreed with the global picture Kermit was promoting, but that does not mean the I unconditionally discard the picture CAPS has pushed forward. In my opinion, pieces of both can mesh together...CAPS vision of the crime, remains found in the cage, possible remains recovered by ALE in Dec/Jan and/or other remains ending up in CAPS cemetery theory.   I do believe remains were moved multiple times. Thanks again. V/r, billb

I'll just keep posting late at night....no one argues with my theories and I feel good knowing that everyone accepts my brilliance! LOL
I am excited by the apparent meltdown being exhibited by rudy, mos...pressure turned up by Greta(got to admit-I really couldn't forgive or watch her after she was inclined - but she is wining me back)/JQK and hope it truly does root out all those that covered up (kj, jvds, pdvs, king, witt, rudy, pm, dompig, richardson, mos, pimps and enabling parents....just to name a few...)...Holland-where r u?
I hate them all.....

You sound like robots!

[ldstlou]

Lou ... I am personally going to get to the bottom of all this issue once and for all.  I am not going to discuss this topic again on the forum until or if I have something to report.

GOOD NIGHT MY FRIEND!  GOOD NIGHT MONKEYS!  GOOD NIGHT ZOO GEEPERS!

Janet

_______


Miller/Dave Holloway
NBC DATELINE
February 22, 2008

And on Dec. 29 the crew dropped a remote operated vehicle, or ROV, into the water to get a closer look.
 
Tim Miller: It looked like a skull. Still looks like a skull.

Chris Hansen: So, you're thinking-- you're thinking at this point--
Tim Miller: I’m thinking at this point, "Oh, my God, maybe we've got something. Maybe we've got something."

Could they have found her? Or was hope, perhaps, making them see what they wanted to see?

(on the boat)

Tim Miller: In my years of searching we have seen several bodies, skeletal remains--I have seen my own daughter's skeletal remains.  I can’t help but believe at this moment that that is human remains in that crab trap.
<snipped>

Dave Holloway: He (Miller) told me, he said, "Dave, we found her."

Chris Hansen: "We found her?"
 
Dave Holloway: Yeah. I said, "Are you sure?" and he said, "I’m 99.9 percent sure." He said, "We hadn't gone down and dove under or anything. But the photographs--" he said, "I tell you, Dave." I-- he said, "That's what we're looking for. And that's gotta -- that -- that's it."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/4/


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 -
« Reply #902 on: Today at 03:09:00 AM »

Kyle said: "John didn't want Tim Miller on board the Persistence because he said Tim wasn't necessary any more and was a liability"

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4182.msg564763#msg564763

Night Sweetie!!!

[caesu]

Cover-up at the Top?

Aruba's minister of justice reportedly claimed that the police commissioner hampered the investigation into Natalee Holloway's disappearance to protect his friend - suspect Joran van der Sloot's father.

http://www.foxnews.com/video/index.html?playerId=videolandingpage&streamingFormat=FLASH&referralObject=3265793&referralPlaylistId=df5603c3d11ca9a023b0070cfc5f297e279fd3a7

http://www.foxnews.com/video/index.html?playerId=videolandingpage&streamingFormat=FLASH&referralObject=3265797&referralPlaylistId=playlist

Greta van Susteren should invite Peter R. de Vries or Hero Brinkman on the show via phone or video connection.

this will get reported on Dutch news the next day. when Peter R. de Vries went in Larry King, FOX, and more - it was got reported extensively on Dutch TV. they think their little country has some importance and are proud Peter R. de Vries. 
but this time Dutch people will feel embarrassed and demand action from there politicians.
at least i do. but i know many more do. but it media outrage needs to build up.

yesterday was the first time is saw Rudy Croes name mentioned on Dutch TV.
i bet many Dutch people don't even know Aruba has it's own Justice Minister.

not wanting to get political here.
but with Bush as President many Dutchies/Europeans wouldn't mind if some Americans called them names or called for a boycott. they just called some unrelated random abuse back.

but now with Obama (he is VERY popular in Holland/Europa) i think they will feel more embarrassed and ashamed of the lack of action of their Dutch government.

[ldstlou]

I posted this late the other night and I want to bring it forward, as I believe both Kermits and CAPS versions can be put together in a way that both may have pieces of truth in the disappearance of Natalee....for what it is worth. MOO
Please understand...I'm not taking sides, and I really feel uncomfortable when I see long time valued Monkeys seemly in disagreement with each other and calling one another out. What I also take away from this post is that, bottom line, Persistence's mission (searching for Natalee) was a success, and FBI is abreast of the situation. I did say that I agreed with the global picture Kermit was promoting, but that does not mean the I unconditionally discard the picture CAPS has pushed forward. In my opinion, pieces of both can mesh together...CAPS vision of the crime, remains found in the cage, possible remains recovered by ALE in Dec/Jan and/or other remains ending up in CAPS cemetery theory.   I do believe remains were moved multiple times. Thanks again. V/r, billb

I'll just keep posting late at night....no one argues with my theories and I feel good knowing that everyone accepts my brilliance! LOL
I am excited by the apparent meltdown being exhibited by rudy, mos...pressure turned up by Greta(got to admit-I really couldn't forgive or watch her after she was inclined - but she is wining me back)/JQK and hope it truly does root out all those that covered up (kj, jvds, pdvs, king, witt, rudy, pm, dompig, richardson, mos, pimps and enabling parents....just to name a few...)...Holland-where r u?
I hate them all.....

roflmao!!!!

I agree!!! It does appear to be a meltdown!!! Lets hope it keeps up!!!

Night Monkeys...waaaay past my bedtime!!

[crazybabyborg]

One of the burning questions in my mind is this:

OK, we have people who know what happened pointing fingers at each other.

No question there has been SLOW and TEDIOUS progress and none of it from any law enforcement official in this entire case. Progress has come from DeVries and Joran's motor mouth. BUT, I can't discount that at this juncture, the world has heard Joran admit he has involvement in Natalee's demise. That's a far cry from where this case once was.

So, what now? Will anything come of it?

That's my burning question.

It does look like Joran was exiled from Aruba, his family and friends, and his patience ran out.  We knew he would explode one day.  I think Joran feels he's thrown down the gauntlet but he's really opened the can of worms and shaken them out.  Justice is so close.

I just keep wondering if there is anyone to bring it on home, AZ.

I can think of reasons Joran would have made up this whole latest story, but, to me, finding Natalee or her remains seems to have become more important than ever.

Joran's lips were moving so you know lies were being told, but I really wish somebody other than Joran would just talk.

[ldstlou]

One of the burning questions in my mind is this:

OK, we have people who know what happened pointing fingers at each other.

No question there has been SLOW and TEDIOUS progress and none of it from any law enforcement official in this entire case. Progress has come from DeVries and Joran's motor mouth. BUT, I can't discount that at this juncture, the world has heard Joran admit he has involvement in Natalee's demise. That's a far cry from where this case once was.

So, what now? Will anything come of it?

That's my burning question.

I hope so CBB...I hope we are at the point beyond retractions. I think Rudy crossed the line of no return!! joran too!!

[AZLady]

However, Rudy Croes tars himself with the same brush when he accuses Van der Straaten of corruption.  Rudy was aware of the phone calls between Van der Straaten and Van der Sloot in 2005.  Rudy knew the relationship between the two and that it would be a conflict of interest.  Rudy tried to replace Van der Straaten with Dompig and then Van der Straaten again took over the case.  Why?  Who pulled rank on Rudy Croes?  Or who had him by the ear? 

[billb's daughter]

I posted this late the other night and I want to bring it forward, as I believe both Kermits and CAPS versions can be put together in a way that both may have pieces of truth in the disappearance of Natalee....for what it is worth. MOO
Please understand...I'm not taking sides, and I really feel uncomfortable when I see long time valued Monkeys seemly in disagreement with each other and calling one another out. What I also take away from this post is that, bottom line, Persistence's mission (searching for Natalee) was a success, and FBI is abreast of the situation. I did say that I agreed with the global picture Kermit was promoting, but that does not mean the I unconditionally discard the picture CAPS has pushed forward. In my opinion, pieces of both can mesh together...CAPS vision of the crime, remains found in the cage, possible remains recovered by ALE in Dec/Jan and/or other remains ending up in CAPS cemetery theory.   I do believe remains were moved multiple times. Thanks again. V/r, billb

I'll just keep posting late at night....no one argues with my theories and I feel good knowing that everyone accepts my brilliance! LOL
I am excited by the apparent meltdown being exhibited by rudy, mos...pressure turned up by Greta(got to admit-I really couldn't forgive or watch her after she was inclined - but she is wining me back)/JQK and hope it truly does root out all those that covered up (kj, jvds, pdvs, king, witt, rudy, pm, dompig, richardson, mos, pimps and enabling parents....just to name a few...)...Holland-where r u?
I hate them all.....

You sound like robots!

I miss Robots positive outlook.The glass is always half full. never half empty...

[crazybabyborg]

Cover-up at the Top?

Aruba's minister of justice reportedly claimed that the police commissioner hampered the investigation into Natalee Holloway's disappearance to protect his friend - suspect Joran van der Sloot's father.

http://www.foxnews.com/video/index.html?playerId=videolandingpage&streamingFormat=FLASH&referralObject=3265793&referralPlaylistId=df5603c3d11ca9a023b0070cfc5f297e279fd3a7

http://www.foxnews.com/video/index.html?playerId=videolandingpage&streamingFormat=FLASH&referralObject=3265797&referralPlaylistId=playlist

Greta van Susteren should invite Peter R. de Vries or Hero Brinkman on the show via phone or video connection.

this will get reported on Dutch news the next day. when Peter R. de Vries went in Larry King, FOX, and more - it was got reported extensively on Dutch TV. they think their little country has some importance and are proud Peter R. de Vries. 
but this time Dutch people will feel embarrassed and demand action from there politicians.
at least i do. but i know many more do. but it media outrage needs to build up.

yesterday was the first time is saw Rudy Croes name mentioned on Dutch TV.
i bet many Dutch people don't even know Aruba has it's own Justice Minister.

not wanting to get political here.
but with Bush as President many Dutchies/Europeans wouldn't mind if some Americans called them names or called for a boycott. they just called some unrelated random abuse back.

but now with Obama (he is VERY popular in Holland/Europa) i think they will feel more embarrassed and ashamed of the lack of action of their Dutch government.

Well if it takes a popular president to give anyone a conscience about an innocent girl on a Senior trip, then that speaks far more about the citizens of Holland than it does about any US president.

[AZLady]

I've said for a long, long time that the only way the truth will be known is if an international investigation takes place into the corruption on Aruba.  Interpol is the logical body to investigate.  Will the Dutch request outside help?  We'll see.

[klaasend]

I posted this late the other night and I want to bring it forward, as I believe both Kermits and CAPS versions can be put together in a way that both may have pieces of truth in the disappearance of Natalee....for what it is worth. MOO
Please understand...I'm not taking sides, and I really feel uncomfortable when I see long time valued Monkeys seemly in disagreement with each other and calling one another out. What I also take away from this post is that, bottom line, Persistence's mission (searching for Natalee) was a success, and FBI is abreast of the situation. I did say that I agreed with the global picture Kermit was promoting, but that does not mean the I unconditionally discard the picture CAPS has pushed forward. In my opinion, pieces of both can mesh together...CAPS vision of the crime, remains found in the cage, possible remains recovered by ALE in Dec/Jan and/or other remains ending up in CAPS cemetery theory.   I do believe remains were moved multiple times. Thanks again. V/r, billb

I'll just keep posting late at night....no one argues with my theories and I feel good knowing that everyone accepts my brilliance! LOL
I am excited by the apparent meltdown being exhibited by rudy, mos...pressure turned up by Greta(got to admit-I really couldn't forgive or watch her after she was inclined - but she is wining me back)/JQK and hope it truly does root out all those that covered up (kj, jvds, pdvs, king, witt, rudy, pm, dompig, richardson, mos, pimps and enabling parents....just to name a few...)...Holland-where r u?
I hate them all.....

I with you Billb 

[crazybabyborg]

For Old Time's Sake:


I HATE THEM ALL!!!!!