Natalee Case Discussion #710 1/03 - 1/09/2007

[BUCKSHOT]

5th Suspect, in my opinion, has to be one of two people: Joran - Paulus.

Concerning the casino video, in my mind, I am unable to say, with 100% certainty, that Paulus was sitting at the table.  It sucks that the view of that person is obstructed a bit.  When the person bends forward into better view, it appears as though they are younger than Paulus, with darker hair.  Also, there seems to be be no interaction, whatsoever, between this unknown person and Joran.  A father and son would at least have minimal interaction, easily spotted by a camera, despite the lack of audio.  However, the things that make me consider it being Paulus are: (a) the lack of hair in the crown area of the head, and (b) same type of outfit worn by Paulus - white collared shirt and watch.  I could be totally wrong about it not being Paulus.  Keep this in mind.

If it is Paulus, what would it do for the case? It would prove him to be lying about his whereabouts at that particular time of evening.  I do not think it would imply his being present when Natalee expired.  I think everyone has safely concluded that his involvement was in the disposal plans and subsequent cover-up.  I am curious as to what it would do for the investigation if it was determined to be Paulus sitting at the casino table at the same time that Joran and Natalee were.

Concerning witness and/or suspect statements, I do feel that status of individuals were manipulated so as to steer usage of statements, for possible later dates.  People were allowed to lie to the investigators, depending upon their designated status.  That is strange to me.

About the whole investigation - If the higher ups, included in the cover-up, sought to railroad the investigation, it is hard to understand the remaining dynamics of the investigation.  Police were searching the island and trying to find clues.  If a policeman found a clue, physical evidence or conflicts in story, he/she would turn it over through chain of command.  That person, who discovered the evidence, would know that they discovered the evidence.  When that policeman saw it go through chain of command, without consequence, human nature would have raised an eyebrow.  The entire police force would have to be in the cover-up, OR the honest polieman, who had discovered evidence, is simply too scared to challenge his superiors about integrity.  Did that make any sense at all ??

[BUCKSHOT]

Assume the worst for a moment - a body is not recovered.
What will happen next with this investigation ??

It is clear as day that the file, and its contents, will not leave custody of those who ran, and railroaded, the investigation.  What will happen next ??

I am not clear on how true answers will be discovered, as to the events that transpired on that fateful evening.  Other than people involved speaking about it down the road, I simply can not see any resolution, whatsoever. Am I wrong?

This will parallel the Kennedy assasination? No one will know for sure.

[Dayhiker]

5th Suspect, in my opinion, has to be one of two people: Joran - Paulus.

Concerning the casino video, in my mind, I am unable to say, with 100% certainty, that Paulus was sitting at the table.  It sucks that the view of that person is obstructed a bit.  When the person bends forward into better view, it appears as though they are younger than Paulus, with darker hair.  Also, there seems to be be no interaction, whatsoever, between this unknown person and Joran.  A father and son would at least have minimal interaction, easily spotted by a camera, despite the lack of audio.  However, the things that make me consider it being Paulus are: (a) the lack of hair in the crown area of the head, and (b) same type of outfit worn by Paulus - white collared shirt and watch.  I could be totally wrong about it not being Paulus.  Keep this in mind.

If it is Paulus, what would it do for the case? It would prove him to be lying about his whereabouts at that particular time of evening.  I do not think it would imply his being present when Natalee expired.  I think everyone has safely concluded that his involvement was in the disposal plans and subsequent cover-up.  I am curious as to what it would do for the investigation if it was determined to be Paulus sitting at the casino table at the same time that Joran and Natalee were.

Concerning witness and/or suspect statements, I do feel that status of individuals were manipulated so as to steer usage of statements, for possible later dates.  People were allowed to lie to the investigators, depending upon their designated status.  That is strange to me.

About the whole investigation - If the higher ups, included in the cover-up, sought to railroad the investigation, it is hard to understand the remaining dynamics of the investigation.  Police were searching the island and trying to find clues.  If a policeman found a clue, physical evidence or conflicts in story, he/she would turn it over through chain of command.  That person, who discovered the evidence, would know that they discovered the evidence.  When that policeman saw it go through chain of command, without consequence, human nature would have raised an eyebrow.  The entire police force would have to be in the cover-up, OR the honest polieman, who had discovered evidence, is simply too scared to challenge his superiors about integrity.  Did that make any sense at all ??

Does make sense, Buckshot. Why was Paulus entrance and exit to the casino not released? Why was a obstructed piece of the tape showing the man that looks like Paulus released? There would have been cameras from every possible angle in the casino. His movements should be heavily documented.

If that is Paulus and he did lie it would make no difference to the Dutch investigators. They, and the Dutch judges, can't manage to string two pieces of evidence together. or don't want to.

[private eye]

Interresting, Glenda/Renfro has crawled out from under her rock to post at RU tonight.  Wonder what's got her motivated to post?  Of course, she's posting crap blaming anything thay might have happened to Natalee on Beth for allowing her to go to a location where drinking was legal for 18yr olds. 

Must have been a really big rock.

Did you mean rock or is that a typo?

[klaasend]

Here's the link to the Aruba Chamber of Commerce but the Registry link isn't working for me right now.  This is where you can search businesses:

http://www.arubachamber.com/

[ldstlou]

Ldstlou I had just read that about the ipod when you asked that this morning. It was in one of the MB girls 302s. Wonder why one would want to take one to a casino? And if it wasn't an ipod what else could it be.

Lala's...where is lala's this morning...some more on GVC and his daddy. You need to scroll right down to see where daddy was interrogated and what the charges were against Geoffrey.

Thanks getagrip!

http://getagripmonkey.blogspot.com/2006_04_16_archive.html

I gotcha Mum, thanks! It does look like it could be an ipod.

[MumInOhio]

Here's the link to the Aruba Chamber of Commerce but the Registry link isn't working for me right now.  This is where you can search businesses:

http://www.arubachamber.com/

Thank you Klaas....you don't happen to have Max Arends myspace handy do you? Google sent me to your posts this morning....LOL ...it would take me the rest of my life to find it there!   TIA

[Lala'sMom]

Morning monkeys all!

Who is the girl sitting beside Joran in the casino vidoe that points to Paulus?  Do we know her name?

Mum
I am here, as I said before, GVC was not arrested until much, much later.  Thanks for the link.

PI
I guess I meant rock....or...uh...well use your imagination.

5th suspect
There have been 2 code talkers that have contended that Paulus id the 5th.  I have spent countless hours trying to connect the dots with him...you would need to establish that he hosted a party that night and that he left said party at some point to help Joran and that he met Natalee before the night in the casino.  Connect those dots and you have your 5th suspect.  I have long said that if it is Paulus maybe he was at home with someone else...and I will just leave it at that and not name any names.

[Lala'sMom]

5th Suspect, in my opinion, has to be one of two people: Joran - Paulus.

Concerning the casino video, in my mind, I am unable to say, with 100% certainty, that Paulus was sitting at the table.  It sucks that the view of that person is obstructed a bit.  When the person bends forward into better view, it appears as though they are younger than Paulus, with darker hair.  Also, there seems to be be no interaction, whatsoever, between this unknown person and Joran.  A father and son would at least have minimal interaction, easily spotted by a camera, despite the lack of audio.  However, the things that make me consider it being Paulus are: (a) the lack of hair in the crown area of the head, and (b) same type of outfit worn by Paulus - white collared shirt and watch.  I could be totally wrong about it not being Paulus.  Keep this in mind.

If it is Paulus, what would it do for the case? It would prove him to be lying about his whereabouts at that particular time of evening.  I do not think it would imply his being present when Natalee expired.  I think everyone has safely concluded that his involvement was in the disposal plans and subsequent cover-up.  I am curious as to what it would do for the investigation if it was determined to be Paulus sitting at the casino table at the same time that Joran and Natalee were.

Concerning witness and/or suspect statements, I do feel that status of individuals were manipulated so as to steer usage of statements, for possible later dates.  People were allowed to lie to the investigators, depending upon their designated status.  That is strange to me.

About the whole investigation - If the higher ups, included in the cover-up, sought to railroad the investigation, it is hard to understand the remaining dynamics of the investigation.  Police were searching the island and trying to find clues.  If a policeman found a clue, physical evidence or conflicts in story, he/she would turn it over through chain of command.  That person, who discovered the evidence, would know that they discovered the evidence.  When that policeman saw it go through chain of command, without consequence, human nature would have raised an eyebrow.  The entire police force would have to be in the cover-up, OR the honest polieman, who had discovered evidence, is simply too scared to challenge his superiors about integrity.  Did that make any sense at all ??

Who was there?  Dennis Jacobs, Jan van der Straaten, Rudy Croes.  All the dirty hands were present and accounted for.  Beth indicates the shenanigans that took place in her book.  These 3 together could make anything happen.

[klaasend]

Here's the link to the Aruba Chamber of Commerce but the Registry link isn't working for me right now.  This is where you can search businesses:

http://www.arubachamber.com/

Thank you Klaas....you don't happen to have Max Arends myspace handy do you? Google sent me to your posts this morning....LOL ...it would take me the rest of my life to find it there!   TIA

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=244626398

[MumInOhio]

Morning monkeys all!

Who is the girl sitting beside Joran in the casino vidoe that points to Paulus?  Do we know her name?

Mum
I am here, as I said before, GVC was not arrested until much, much later.  Thanks for the link.

PI
I guess I meant rock....or...uh...well use your imagination.

5th suspect
There have been 2 code talkers that have contended that Paulus id the 5th.  I have spent countless hours trying to connect the dots with him...you would need to establish that he hosted a party that night and that he left said party at some point to help Joran and that he met Natalee before the night in the casino.  Connect those dots and you have your 5th suspect.  I have long said that if it is Paulus maybe he was at home with someone else...and I will just leave it at that and not name any names.

[/b]


Good Morning....Just saw a post on this, but didn't copy as there wasn't a source listed just the date.  Something about a search and conflict of interest as he was staying with Paulus and Anita. 

[Peaches]

I did it again.. F'd up another quote.. I gotta go to bed. I have alot of work ahead of me.. perhaps a NEW job on the horizon..  Gonna be a gramma.. and hit with a divorce ! Merry Chritmas and Happy New Year to Angie !
 I WILL survive this dammit.  I know I have it in me..    

 Good night everyone..  HUGS ans sweet dreams.. 

YOU WILL SURVIVE ANGIE!  We all love you and you will be in my thoughts and prayers.  Take care of yourself.  nite!

Yeah, what she said.  Love you Angie.

[Observer]

Buckshot:

Although there is only a few seconds of video in the casino,it appears to me like there may be interaction between the "Man" and Joran. Right before the girl points in the guys direction it appears that Joran is conversing with him.


http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=3922731&affil=wlne

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2432.msg315480#msg315480

[Tamikosmom]

What a bunch of BS! This whole "Dutch" Investiagtion stinks!!!!!

That's putting it mildly *******! It is a complete and total joke....

Officials responsible for investigating offences


98. Under the Code of Criminal Procedure (art. 184) the persons charged with investigating offences are police officers and special police officers, insofar as the latter have been appointed by or on behalf of the Minister of Justice. Others persons charged with investigating offences are those who have been designated in special statutory regulations as being responsible for enforcing the provisions of the regulations, for ensuring their observance or for investigating the offences defined in them (art. 185). Persons who are competent to investigate are the procurators general, the public prosecutors and the local police chiefs. If they exercise this power, they are designated as investigating officials for the purposes of the Code of Criminal Procedure (art. 1). The change in the situation whereby the public prosecutor is no longer charged with investigating but is merely competent to investigate reflects the fact that investigations are the specific responsibility of the criminal investigations department of the police.


99. The public prosecutor or Chief Public Prosecutor supervises the investigation and may issue orders to persons charged with investigating or competent to investigate offences (art. 183, para. 1). As regards general supervision, however, the Chief Public Prosecutor is bound by any instructions given by the Procurator General (art. 4, para. 2, Judiciary Organization Ordinance; see also art. 14, Code of Criminal Procedure). This means that the Procurator General, as head of the Public Prosecutions Service, can issue guidelines concerning investigations and sentencing demands. Only on appeal can the Procurator General give direct instructions for a further investigation (art. 183, para. 3). The public prosecutor has control of the entire preparatory investigation, subject to the provisions in the new Code of Criminal Procedure regarding the intervention of the examining magistrate (art. 183, para. 2).

Good Morning PI and ... thank you.

Dutch law dictates that the Prosecutor is in charge of the investigation but ... it appears that this law was disregarded/manipulated in the Natalee Holloway case.  Joran and Paulus had to be distanced from implication.  This implied cooperation between various ministers of the Dutch/Aruban administration as well as the judiciary.

Janet

+++++++++++++++


Amigoe
September 30, 2005

http://www.scaredmonkeys.com/?p=1694

Many Aruban people are very angry with Twitty and are afraid that her constant appeals against Aruba would have a negative effect on the tourism. Even though this does not reflect in the figures, the government does keep a finger on the pulse. Croes does not consider taking measures against Twitty yet, but does not rule out the possibility to shut her up in the future. The Dutch government was asked to diplomatically support Aruba in this matter.

[Lala'sMom]

Buckshot:

Although there is only a few seconds of video in the casino,it appears to me like there may be interaction between the "Man" and Joran. Right before the girl points in the guys direction it appears that Joran is conversing with him.


http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=3922731&affil=wlne

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2432.msg315480#msg315480

Who is the girl that points to Paulus in the video?  Anyone?

[BUCKSHOT]

[/quote]

Who was there?  Dennis Jacobs, Jan van der Straaten, Rudy Croes.  All the dirty hands were present and accounted for.  Beth indicates the shenanigans that took place in her book.  These 3 together could make anything happen.
[/quote]

what about those who found belt, bloody mattress, arm bone, duct tape with hairs, blood on car seats, overheard things, etc... - these people(NOT DJ, JanVDS,RC) would know what they saw or heard, yet never saw results, proper testing, etc. wouldn't they be suspicious, themselves, about those higher in command than themselves that did nothing with evidence handed over.  i can not imagine those in charge to instruct a base level policeman, "if you find something, or are on to something...do not turn it over to anyone else except DJ,JanVDS,RC and do not discuss it at all or else you will face consequences (lose your job, pension, and be refused work privelages indefinitely on this island)."

[Lala'sMom]

Who was there?  Dennis Jacobs, Jan van der Straaten, Rudy Croes.  All the dirty hands were present and accounted for.  Beth indicates the shenanigans that took place in her book.  These 3 together could make anything happen.
[/quote]

what about those who found belt, bloody mattress, arm bone, duct tape with hairs, blood on car seats, overheard things, etc... - these people(NOT DJ, JanVDS,RC) would know what they saw or heard, yet never saw results, proper testing, etc. wouldn't they be suspicious, themselves, about those higher in command than themselves that did nothing with evidence handed over.  i can not imagine those in charge to instruct a base level policeman, "if you find something, or are on to something...do not turn it over to anyone else except DJ,JanVDS,RC and do not discuss it at all or else you will face consequences (lose your job, pension, and be refused work privelages indefinitely on this island)."


[/quote]

Hard to believe, isn't it?

[dennisintn]

persistence has posted finally.  rough seas and eq. failure blamed.  they will update shortly.
dennisintn

[klaasend]

persistence has posted finally.  rough seas and eq. failure blamed.  they will update shortly.
dennisintn

Thanks Dennis!

[AZSunny]

persistence has posted finally.  rough seas and eq. failure blamed.  they will update shortly.
dennisintn

Thanks Dennis!

Thank goodness!!  whew...