Lively Case Discussion #523a 9/12 - 9/15/2006 (use this one)

[tidycat]

Nothing like jumping into an ongoing conversation without any facts, but Geraldo did say there was such a tape and he and his brother had good contacts.  Also, when Freddy was arrested I thought it was because he was also either in the photos they had of the girl.  At least, that's how I remember it.  So yes, they are stupid enough to participate and be photographed in the act.  And I don't necessarily like Geraldo that much, but I believed it when he said there was a tape.  That is no more incredible than anything else seen in this case...IMHO.

Later!

tidycat

[thirdstrike]

I see what you're saying, Strike...

One thing ~ discussing "rumor" again ~ because Geraldo never actually said that he "saw" that film ~ though I do believe that there is such a film ~ is ...

Maybe she is one of the girls who were going to come forward to ALE against Joran ~ but wound up not doing it...

Maybe because she agreed to make that film ~ or whatever ~ or wound up in it because of hanging out doing drugs with these guys and then couldn't stop what was happening....

Just a thought added to the "rumor"....

I can understand that Katz!  It's just...logically, one would think it'd be unlikely that there would have been a film made documenting a crime in which you could be jailed for.  I mean, I can see them making a sex tape with all parties consenting (it's still morally wrong, but I've been around the block a few times.  This wouldn't shock me like it would others in here).  But, you'd have to be stuck on stupid to make one in which the participant is resisting.  To me, that dosn't seem logical...even for the likes of those knuckleheads...

It's one thing to make mistakes like this when comitting a crime if you hadn't had any prior experience.  First time crininals get caught all the time for reasons which could have been easily avoided if they had only paid attention to detail.  But, these guys were well schooled in the "art" of "pulling" intoxicated tourists from a bar at closing time.  IMO, they would be more likely then not to make sure there wasn't any documented evidence which could come back to bite them later...

Thoughts?

The only thought I can come up with on this matter, would be that they had given her a "date rape drug" and decided to film the sexual act, (not expecting her to die), hoping that she would have no memory of such event upon awakening....then, she goes home to the US, and the film gets distributed with no knowledge by the victom , that stuff has happened more than we would like to beleive

That's a possibility Elaine.  I didn't say I wasn't open to new ideas.  It's just sometimes I tend to believe the first story is the right one...you know?  And, from the very beginning, I had believed that they were responsible for her death, but it was not intentional.  From that point, I do believe the complexities in this case began (coverup, etc)...

[tidycat]

Oh, and it's my humble understanding that just about 99% of everything we hear from Aruba is a rumor...right?
 

[Elaine]

I see what you're saying, Strike...

One thing ~ discussing "rumor" again ~ because Geraldo never actually said that he "saw" that film ~ though I do believe that there is such a film ~ is ...

Maybe she is one of the girls who were going to come forward to ALE against Joran ~ but wound up not doing it...

Maybe because she agreed to make that film ~ or whatever ~ or wound up in it because of hanging out doing drugs with these guys and then couldn't stop what was happening....

Just a thought added to the "rumor"....

I can understand that Katz!  It's just...logically, one would think it'd be unlikely that there would have been a film made documenting a crime in which you could be jailed for.  I mean, I can see them making a sex tape with all parties consenting (it's still morally wrong, but I've been around the block a few times.  This wouldn't shock me like it would others in here).  But, you'd have to be stuck on stupid to make one in which the participant is resisting.  To me, that dosn't seem logical...even for the likes of those knuckleheads...

It's one thing to make mistakes like this when comitting a crime if you hadn't had any prior experience.  First time crininals get caught all the time for reasons which could have been easily avoided if they had only paid attention to detail.  But, these guys were well schooled in the "art" of "pulling" intoxicated tourists from a bar at closing time.  IMO, they would be more likely then not to make sure there wasn't any documented evidence which could come back to bite them later...

Thoughts?

The only thought I can come up with on this matter, would be that they had given her a "date rape drug" and decided to film the sexual act, (not expecting her to die), hoping that she would have no memory of such event upon awakening....then, she goes home to the US, and the film gets distributed with no knowledge by the victom , that stuff has happened more than we would like to beleive

Id like to add, that if this was an option in happening, naturally they would have destroyed it because, something went wrong

ooops, should've said , I am talking abot with Natalee! If they made a film with Naatlee....JMO , of course!

[Appeals]

STRIKE, from Huff's Crime Blog, this one is for you:

"Locoman Pimp, For Real… or, No, Seriously, THANKS, Geraldo…
Saturday, August 27th, 2005

Remember this? It’s the blog entry I wrote on June 15, 2005, titled, Thanks, Geraldo.

In that blog entry, I wrote the following:

Because the inimitable Geraldo Rivera(...) dropped a little bomb about the dutch teen suspected of playing a role in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway tonight on The O’Reilly Factor, I’m now getting hits from people googling “Joran Van Der Sloot” and “gangbang.”

That was the bomb; not that evidence pointing to Natalee’s location was found—at the moment it appears the most recent intensive search of a lover’s lane sort of area near the hotel where the girl was staying has turned up bupkis—but that Joran Van Der Sloot videotaped himself and a 14-year-old girl in a gangbang and sold it around the island…


At the time I was being kind of tongue-in-cheek about the thing, because a part of my own instinct about the story said it was a bit of a stretch… not that van der Sloot wouldn’t do such a thing, it just seemed so… lewd, and I didn’t want to personally inject such a note into my own weblogging about the disappearance of Natalee Holloway from the island of Aruba on the last night of May, 2005.

Yet two entries later, I wrote, Joran’s Young Ex, about evidence I found of Joran dating a girl that would have been considered underage on Aruba while they were both students at the International School—van der Sloot the equivalent to a junior, the girl in question a 7th grader. This story didn’t mean the rumor Geraldo repeated had legs, necessarily, but it made it seem a little more believable.


Now with the arrest of Locoman Pimp Freddy Arambatziz/Zedan, Geraldo Rivera’s seemingly ill-advised rumor sounds more likely than ever to have some basis in fact. So Geraldo, if you’re reading this, all props to you, man—you’ve been doing this sort of thing longer than I have.

Tonight on The Big Story Weekend it was reported that Freddy’s arrest may be connected with the making of a sexually-oriented video, with a girl who was underage, that Joran van der Sloot may have also been involved, and it was also intimated that Freddy may have taken part in either the drugging and raping or both of a young woman, just who that could have been not being specified, though the recent news of new allegations toward van der Sloot from girls on the island, when related to the timing of Freddy’s arrest, seem like more than mere coincidence.

Of course, on Geraldo’s own show, At Large, which began as I was writing this blog entry, Rivera introduced the show with his announcement that they now knew who Freddy was, and that they knew his arrest had something to do with a DVD and a 14-year-old. I know that at this point Fox News people have tracked down Freddy’s address, and have other information about him not easily gathered on the web, and I know from personal experience now how careful Geraldo and his producers really are about verifying the info they present.

In fact, Geraldo just presented the story proper this way; the Kalpoes and Freddy are alleged to have kidnapped, drugged, and raped a 14-year-old girl, in addition to the charges related to the disappearance of Natalee Holloway. Freddy is alleged to have marketed the recording in question of the 14-year-old, and participated in the making of the same. As to Natalee, no overt accusations or allegations have been made yet to connect Freddy Arambatziz to her disappearance, but it would seem things might be moving that way, and in an interview on Big Story Weekend earlier, Jug Twitty made it clear he believes Freddy does have some kind of connection to the events of the last night of May.

Here are the exact charges against Freddy Arambatziz, according to Vinda de Sousa:

Intentionally distributing sexual images of a minor.
Intercourse with an unconscious person.
Sexual acts with a girl younger than 16 years."

[LilPuma]

I don't subscribe to the "dog" theory.  I too, think it was a simple thing that snowballed.  "Something bad happened" then, the cover-up.  Those involved just couldn't let the cat out of the bag, and resulting in even more cover up.  JMO.

I think the complications come about in the cover up - not the original crime itself.

I agree completely.  I think the complications are the result of (1) Joran being the son of someone with friends in the legal system, and (2) many in Aruba are involved in something illicit, so they have to keep their mouths shut or someone might turn them in.   Their coverup was sloppy and tainted because of their attitude towards Natalee, Dave, Beth and Americans in general.  The coverup was a slap in the face of Americans, from the incomplete police reports the first night, to telling Dave to wait at C&C's, to Arlene and Joe yelling on cable television, not to mention Aruba paying Joe to threaten people who said anything bad about Aruba's most infamous rapist and murderer.  (Ooops!  Did I say that out loud?)  I think the sloppy coverup was a way of telling Natalee's family and any American supporting them, to go to the devil.   IMHO

[Elaine]

I see what you're saying, Strike...

One thing ~ discussing "rumor" again ~ because Geraldo never actually said that he "saw" that film ~ though I do believe that there is such a film ~ is ...

Maybe she is one of the girls who were going to come forward to ALE against Joran ~ but wound up not doing it...

Maybe because she agreed to make that film ~ or whatever ~ or wound up in it because of hanging out doing drugs with these guys and then couldn't stop what was happening....

Just a thought added to the "rumor"....

I can understand that Katz!  It's just...logically, one would think it'd be unlikely that there would have been a film made documenting a crime in which you could be jailed for.  I mean, I can see them making a sex tape with all parties consenting (it's still morally wrong, but I've been around the block a few times.  This wouldn't shock me like it would others in here).  But, you'd have to be stuck on stupid to make one in which the participant is resisting.  To me, that dosn't seem logical...even for the likes of those knuckleheads...

It's one thing to make mistakes like this when comitting a crime if you hadn't had any prior experience.  First time crininals get caught all the time for reasons which could have been easily avoided if they had only paid attention to detail.  But, these guys were well schooled in the "art" of "pulling" intoxicated tourists from a bar at closing time.  IMO, they would be more likely then not to make sure there wasn't any documented evidence which could come back to bite them later...

Thoughts?

The only thought I can come up with on this matter, would be that they had given her a "date rape drug" and decided to film the sexual act, (not expecting her to die), hoping that she would have no memory of such event upon awakening....then, she goes home to the US, and the film gets distributed with no knowledge by the victom , that stuff has happened more than we would like to beleive

That's a possibility Elaine.  I didn't say I wasn't open to new ideas.  It's just sometimes I tend to believe the first story is the right one...you know?  And, from the very beginning, I had believed that they were responsible for her death, but it was not intentional.  From that point, I do believe the complexities in this case began (coverup, etc)...

I know third,in this case we must be open to new ideas, it seems anythings possible.... I also agree that they are responsible for her demise and think also it was not intentional

[thirdstrike]

Here are the exact charges against Freddy Arambatziz, according to Vinda de Sousa:

Intentionally distributing sexual images of a minor.
Intercourse with an unconscious person.
Sexual acts with a girl younger than 16 years."

Thanks Appeals!  Appreciate the info.

One question though...with these charges against Freddy, why wasn't he tried?  I mean, if they had, in fact, possession of such a tape, then surely they'd have a slam dunk case of rape against Freddy, wouldn't they?

This is what bothers me so much about this stuff.  If the evidence was there, why wasn't there a prosecution?

[Appeals]

Klaas
Can you make me one that says "Tiaras Suck!" ?  

Oh LALA's, honey, I knew there was some reason beyond Shango that I loved you!!  

[KatzHome]

I see what you're saying, Strike...

One thing ~ discussing "rumor" again ~ because Geraldo never actually said that he "saw" that film ~ though I do believe that there is such a film ~ is ...

Maybe she is one of the girls who were going to come forward to ALE against Joran ~ but wound up not doing it...

Maybe because she agreed to make that film ~ or whatever ~ or wound up in it because of hanging out doing drugs with these guys and then couldn't stop what was happening....

Just a thought added to the "rumor"....

I can understand that Katz!  It's just...logically, one would think it'd be unlikely that there would have been a film made documenting a crime in which you could be jailed for.  I mean, I can see them making a sex tape with all parties consenting (it's still morally wrong, but I've been around the block a few times.  This wouldn't shock me like it would others in here).  But, you'd have to be stuck on stupid to make one in which the participant is resisting.  To me, that dosn't seem logical...even for the likes of those knuckleheads...

It's one thing to make mistakes like this when comitting a crime if you hadn't had any prior experience.  First time crininals get caught all the time for reasons which could have been easily avoided if they had only paid attention to detail.  But, these guys were well schooled in the "art" of "pulling" intoxicated tourists from a bar at closing time.  IMO, they would be more likely then not to make sure there wasn't any documented evidence which could come back to bite them later...

Thoughts?

Then that leads us right back to ~ Natalee's death was never meant to happen...  it just did ~ and they went into over-drive to cover it up...

And I can see the filming too, with consenting parties, just like you...   but, I can also see these guys supplying "free" drugs to girls...  and they start out making out... like "privately" although still hanging out with a bunch of people still in the room...  especially high, I can see even a "unconsenting" girl being led into being filmed...  like, "Kiss Freddy now..."  With one of them standing back and filming ~ and maybe the girl didn't notice...

I can see these guys weighing the thrill of having these videos ~ or maybe even selling them against would the girl, and her parents really go to ALE ~ because the girl *did* willingly go to his place to get high...  And a lot of rapes still go unreported...

As far as the "drunk tourists" leaving the bar with these guys...  why not film it...  When they're finished ~ they drop her off someplace near by her hotel ~ she gets on the plane ~ and by the time she actually recalls what happened ~ she's already home...  and maybe even advised that it's probably not worth reporting...

They could have done it once or twice without filming ~ and nothing ever came of it...  So, they filmed the incident...  and still ~ none of those prior tourists reported being raped by them...  so their film was safe...  and they got bolder each time they did it...

Just showing you a way that it could happen, Strike...

[Elaine]

I don't subscribe to the "dog" theory.  I too, think it was a simple thing that snowballed.  "Something bad happened" then, the cover-up.  Those involved just couldn't let the cat out of the bag, and resulting in even more cover up.  JMO.

I think the complications come about in the cover up - not the original crime itself.

I agree completely.  I think the complications are the result of (1) Joran being the son of someone with friends in the legal system, and (2) many in Aruba are involved in something illicit, so they have to keep their mouths shut or someone might turn them in.   Their coverup was sloppy and tainted because of their attitude towards Natalee, Dave, Beth and Americans in general.  The coverup was a slap in the face of Americans, from the incomplete police reports the first night, to telling Dave to wait at C&C's, to Arlene and Joe yelling on cable television, not to mention Aruba paying Joe to threaten people who said anything bad about Aruba's most infamous rapist and murderer.  (Ooops!  Did I say that out loud?)  I think the sloppy coverup was a way of telling Natalee's family and any American supporting them, to go to the devil.   IMHO

Well said

[KatzHome]

Hi all.  Just stopping to test new avatar...testing....

That is too funny Tidy!!!!   Oh geez...  I hope my cats don't see it!!!!   I don't want to give them any ideas!

[Spock]

In fact, Geraldo just presented the story proper this way; the Kalpoes and Freddy are alleged to have kidnapped, drugged, and raped a 14-year-old girl, in addition to the charges related to the disappearance of Natalee Holloway. Freddy is alleged to have marketed the recording in question of the 14-year-old, and participated in the making of the same. As to Natalee, no overt accusations or allegations have been made yet to connect Freddy Arambatziz to her disappearance, but it would seem things might be moving that way, and in an interview on Big Story Weekend earlier, Jug Twitty made it clear he believes Freddy does have some kind of connection to the events of the last night of May.

Here are the exact charges against Freddy Arambatziz, according to Vinda de Sousa:

Intentionally distributing sexual images of a minor.
Intercourse with an unconscious person.
Sexual acts with a girl younger than 16 years."

Did something new just come out on this? (I remember this from last fall)

[klaasend]

Here are the exact charges against Freddy Arambatziz, according to Vinda de Sousa:

Intentionally distributing sexual images of a minor.
Intercourse with an unconscious person.
Sexual acts with a girl younger than 16 years."

Thanks Appeals!  Appreciate the info.

One question though...with these charges against Freddy, why wasn't he tried?  I mean, if they had, in fact, possession of such a tape, then surely they'd have a slam dunk case of rape against Freddy, wouldn't they?

This is what bothers me so much about this stuff.  If the evidence was there, why wasn't there a prosecution?

That's the one that Anita said was nothing more than an innocent photo of a girl in a bikini  

To answer your questions, charges against Freddy would mean also charges against Joran.  They weren't going to allow that to happen.

[KatzHome]

I see what you're saying, Strike...

One thing ~ discussing "rumor" again ~ because Geraldo never actually said that he "saw" that film ~ though I do believe that there is such a film ~ is ...

Maybe she is one of the girls who were going to come forward to ALE against Joran ~ but wound up not doing it...

Maybe because she agreed to make that film ~ or whatever ~ or wound up in it because of hanging out doing drugs with these guys and then couldn't stop what was happening....

Just a thought added to the "rumor"....

I can understand that Katz!  It's just...logically, one would think it'd be unlikely that there would have been a film made documenting a crime in which you could be jailed for.  I mean, I can see them making a sex tape with all parties consenting (it's still morally wrong, but I've been around the block a few times.  This wouldn't shock me like it would others in here).  But, you'd have to be stuck on stupid to make one in which the participant is resisting.  To me, that dosn't seem logical...even for the likes of those knuckleheads...

It's one thing to make mistakes like this when comitting a crime if you hadn't had any prior experience.  First time crininals get caught all the time for reasons which could have been easily avoided if they had only paid attention to detail.  But, these guys were well schooled in the "art" of "pulling" intoxicated tourists from a bar at closing time.  IMO, they would be more likely then not to make sure there wasn't any documented evidence which could come back to bite them later...

Thoughts?

The only thought I can come up with on this matter, would be that they had given her a "date rape drug" and decided to film the sexual act, (not expecting her to die), hoping that she would have no memory of such event upon awakening....then, she goes home to the US, and the film gets distributed with no knowledge by the victom , that stuff has happened more than we would like to beleive

Hi Elaine!  It's great seeing you!  That's the way I first thought she died...  and I still lean towards thinking it went down this way...  but am open to other thoughts too...

[thirdstrike]

...and I can see the filming too, with consenting parties, just like you...  

Whoa!  I didn't mean to imply I had either consented to, or participated in any tape of this kind.  That's not my style Katz.

Just wanted to clarify...

[thirdstrike]

Here are the exact charges against Freddy Arambatziz, according to Vinda de Sousa:

Intentionally distributing sexual images of a minor.
Intercourse with an unconscious person.
Sexual acts with a girl younger than 16 years."

Thanks Appeals!  Appreciate the info.

One question though...with these charges against Freddy, why wasn't he tried?  I mean, if they had, in fact, possession of such a tape, then surely they'd have a slam dunk case of rape against Freddy, wouldn't they?

This is what bothers me so much about this stuff.  If the evidence was there, why wasn't there a prosecution?

That's the one that Anita said was nothing more than an innocent photo of a girl in a bikini  

To answer your questions, charges against Freddy would mean also charges against Joran.  They weren't going to allow that to happen.

I have a hard time believing that Klass.  Surely, the to would be completely seperate as far as charges and an ultimate prosecution.  If I understand it correctly, they did file the charges against Freddy, right?  If so, then why would they need to prosecute Joran for a tape or pictures not involving him?  AM I corerct to believe these are two seperate tapes?

[Elaine]

Hi Elaine!  It's great seeing you!  That's the way I first thought she died...  and I still lean towards thinking it went down this way...  but am open to other thoughts too...

Hiya Katz!!! Good to see you too!

[LilPuma]

I'm not so sure Dompig was involved in any of the cover-up...

In the beginning he sounded way too sincere about wanting to find and prosecute the killers...

And then he sound just too plain dumb ~ that I doubt the people that San listed would trust him...

I'm inclined to believe that Dompig is not involved in the coverup, but can't get past those he knows are covering up.  I also think that he and possibly Janssen were pressured into making public statements about suspecting Beth and an insurance scam.   Jossy said earlier this year that the rumor was that Michael Dompig was going to be arrested.  Then Dompig comes out and says that Michael was lying about GVC and Michael doesn't get arrested.  Hmmmmmmm  The new police chief is Dutch and Dompig is very angry.  Hmmmmmmm  Starting to add up.

[KatzHome]

...and I can see the filming too, with consenting parties, just like you...  

Whoa!  I didn't mean to imply I had either consented to, or participated in any tape of this kind.  That's not my style Katz.

Just wanted to clarify...

Strike!!! I didn't say I did either!!!!  Nor intended to imply that you did...

I just said that I could see how it could happen....

Just clarifying too!   seesch!!!