Caylee Marie Anthony, 2, Missing 6/16/08 Orlando FL (Remains Found) #85

[cuteascanbe]

Most murder prosecution cases rely heavily on circumstantial evidence.  Few murderers commit their crimes in broad daylight in front of dozens of witnesses and leave the smoking gun in plain view.  To the contrary, murderers usually choose the dark of night or a very private place in which to do the crime and they try to cover up afterward to leave no direct evidence at all.  Many murderers are convicted on mainly circumstantial evidence.  Sometimes murderers are convicted without a body being found and sometimes without the means in which the murder was committed being known.  Scott Peterson was convicted of murdering Laci and their unborn child, but nobody knows for sure how he killed her.  Anne Marie Fahey's killer was convicted without her body ever being found.  Boo, that was a very good post about what circumstantial evidence is and why it is so important.  Now we need a good post about hearsay.  I think some people, including me, often misunderstand what constitutes hearsay evidence.

Thank you for that. One of those people would be me!!

[AZLady]

Perhaps Casey did say something incriminating to a visitor.  We won't know until the trial.  Perhaps the opposite is true--maybe a family member said something that incriminated him or her.  That might be more likely.

Wow Az you can think clearly tonight, I'm impressed! 

She is one smart cookie - when we hide the bottle!! 

Ha, ha, ha.  So true.  Those late nights imbibing can set my imagination to full tilt.

[islandmonkey]

Most murder prosecution cases rely heavily on circumstantial evidence.  Few murderers commit their crimes in broad daylight in front of dozens of witnesses and leave the smoking gun in plain view.  To the contrary, murderers usually choose the dark of night or a very private place in which to do the crime and they try to cover up afterward to leave no direct evidence at all.  Many murderers are convicted on mainly circumstantial evidence.  Sometimes murderers are convicted without a body being found and sometimes without the means in which the murder was committed being known.  Scott Peterson was convicted of murdering Laci and their unborn child, but nobody knows for sure how he killed her.  Anne Marie Fahey's killer was convicted without her body ever being found.  Boo, that was a very good post about what circumstantial evidence is and why it is so important.  Now we need a good post about hearsay.  I think some people, including me, often misunderstand what constitutes hearsay evidence.

Great point~Tad Diabase has a PDF of every no body murder cases, around 300 convictions with IIRC 25 overturned, that gices me great faith that this case is a no-brainer.

[mytime]

Wow, I just caught up!!   

Hi AZLady - Haven't seen you in a while!  And yes I am still here!! 

Muffy - I think we may to change your avitar to a pitbull next!  LOL  That picture is just too cute to give a hiney shame!! 

Hi Bearly - I am waiting!!!! 

Last but not least  - Hi Klaas - bet you have missed me - haven't you?   

Hi Mytime.  I've been busy but on Christmas break now, so I have a bit more time to poke around in here.  What's the local news about this case?  Anything interesting?

From what I am told, the locals are so sick of this case!!  As for the news, same ole same ole!!

If the locals in Orlando are sick of this case after only 6 months you can imagine how Aruba feels about the NH case.

If tourisism is really down, I hope they make the VDS pay!!   

[MuffyBee]

This may sound like a dumb question, but Im wondering where they will pick the jury from.  Will they be from Florida?  I just about think every person in USA has heard of this case, and hates caseys guts. 

Actually, I've talked to a number of people in the US that haven't heard of this case.  The ones that  have said things like, "oh, you mean the mother that partied like crazy after her daughter died".  Or "those poor grandparents..." But often times, the people I've talked to don't know about the case.  Casey's lawyers will probably try to use the excessive publicity as a point to say Casey can't get a fair trial, or try to move the trial elsewhere.  And by the way, there are no dumb questions.   

[Dihannah1]

you know, they keep saying that this case is a circumstantial case.  But how can they say that with all the evidence WE have seen, not counting what we haven't?  Just because KC was not caught on film at Target actually killing her baby?  Call me stupid but how can they keep saying that? 

Circumstantial evidence is a collection of facts that, when considered together, can be used to infer a conclusion about something unknown. Circumstantial evidence is usually a theory, supported by a significant quantity of corroborating evidence. Corroboration is normally supplied by one or more expert witnesses who provide forensic evidence.

Compared to direct evidence

If a witness testifies that the defendant was seen entering a house, then screaming was heard, then the defendant was seen leaving, carrying a bloody knife, that is circumstantial evidence; if a witness testifies that he/she actually saw the defendant stabbing the victim, that is direct evidence. Similarly, if a videotape is entered into evidence showing the defendant entering the house, stabbing the victim, and leaving the house, that too is circumstantial evidence.

Applications of circumstantial evidence

The two areas of importance are criminal and civil cases where direct evidence is lacking. Forensic evidence is often crucial in establishing the truth of a matter, especially when corroborated by independent tests. Expert evidence is usually needed to prove forensic conclusions.

Criminal Law

Circumstantial evidence is used in criminal courts to establish guilt or innocence through reasoning.

The distinction between direct and circumstantial evidence is important because, with the obvious exceptions (the immature, incompetent, or mentally ill), nearly all criminals are careful to not generate direct evidence[clarification needed], and try to avoid demonstrating criminal intent. Therefore, to prove the mens rea levels of "purposely" or "knowingly," the prosecution must usually resort to circumstantial evidence. The same goes for tortfeasors in tort law, if one needs to prove a high level of mens rea to obtain punitive damages. In addition, circumstantial evidence -- such as fingerprint evdience -- is usually the best available evidence to support an inference as to the facts of the case.

One example of circumstantial evidence is the behavior of a person around the time of an alleged offense. If someone was charged with theft of money, and was then seen in a shopping spree purchasing expensive items, the shopping spree might be regarded as circumstantial evidence of the individual's guilt.

Forensic evidence

Other examples of circumstantial evidence are fingerprint, blood analysis or DNA analysis of the evidence found at the scene of a crime. These types of evidence may strongly point to a certain conclusion when taken into consideration with other facts, but if not directly witnessed by someone when the crime was committed, they are still considered to be circumstantial in nature. However, when proved by expert witnesses, they are usually sufficient to decide a case especially in the absence of any direct evidence. Owing to the development in forensic methods, old undecided case (or cold cases) are frequently resolved.

A popular misconception is that circumstantial evidence is less valid or less important than direct evidence. This is only partly true: direct evidence is popularly, but mistakenly, considered more powerful, while in fact many successful criminal prosecutions often rely largely or entirely on circumstantial evidence, and civil charges are frequently based on circumstantial or indirect evidence. Indeed, the common metaphor for the strongest possible evidence in any case -- the 'smoking gun' -- is in fact an example of proof based on circumstantial evidence. Similarly, fingerprint evidence, videotapes, sound recordings, photographrs, and many other examples of physical evidence that support the drawing of an inference, i.e., circumstantial evidence, are considered the strongest possible evidence.

In practice, circumstantial evidence has an advantage over direct evidence in that it is more difficult to suppress or fabricate. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously inaccurate at times, and many persons have been convicted on the basis of perjured or otherwise mistaken testimony. Good strong circumstantial evidence can be a far more reliable basis on which to make a determination of guilt. It should be noted that circumstantial evidence normally requires a witness, such as the police officer who found the evidence, or an expert who examined it, to lay the foundation for its admission. This witness, sometimes known as the sponsor or the authenticating witness, is giving direct (eye-witness) testimony, and could present credibility problems in the same way that any eye witness does.

Much of the evidence against Timothy McVeigh was circumstantial, for example. Speaking about McVeigh's trial, University of Michigan law professor Robert Precht said, "Circumstantial evidence can be, and often is much more powerful than direct evidence". [1] The recent Scott Peterson trial was based heavily on circumstantial evidence.

However, there is sometimes more than one logical conclusion inferable from the same set of circumstances. In cases where one conclusion implies a defendant's guilt and another their innocence, the 'benefit of the doubt' principle would apply. Indeed, if the circumstantial evidence suggests a possibility of innocence, the prosecution has the burden of disproving that possibility.

Civil law

Circumstantial evidence is also used in civil courts to establish or deny liability. It is usually the most common form of evidence, especially in product liability cases, and road traffic accidents for example. Forensic analysis of skid marks can frequently allow a reconstruction of the accident to be made. By measuring the length of such marks and using dynamic analysis of the car and road conditions at the time of the accident, it is usually found that drivers under-estimate the speed at which they were travelling. Forensic science and forensic engineering are both common methods used in civil cases, just as much as in criminal cases.

Thanks Boo for the explanations.   If you think about it, a majority of cases are tried on circumstantial.  How many criminals intententionally or more likely leave inadvertant evidence behind.  Most cases are based and convicted on circumstantial and this is by far the most damning case I've seen, and we don't even know what the LE has to reveal yet, not to mention all the most obvious forensics we are aware of.  She is going down!

[cuteascanbe]

This may sound like a dumb question, but Im wondering where they will pick the jury from.  Will they be from Florida?  I just about think every person in USA has heard of this case, and hates caseys guts. 

Try every person in North America!! I live in AB. Canada and you couldn't pick a jury from here!!! Everyone I know, knows about this case and just from reading what has been released so far and listening to the interviews( We don't have ongoing media coverage here) they all hate KC and believe she is guilty!!

[Jerseygirl345]

I don't know where to begin...

[AZLady]

Does anyone remember the meter reader giving LE the GPS position on one of his calls?

If so, perhaps they can prove that the things he spotted then didn't move.

I don't remember a GPS position given, but he did have a time conveying the street names on one call!  From what the meter reader said, it didn't sound like he spotted the bag with Caylee's bones in it.  He said he saw a white board and something round underneath it.  My impression was that he was not very specific as to what he saw, just that he felt it "didn't belong there."

Did you get the impression that those calls were edited?  It was like they were having a continued conversation but parts were missing?

And IIRC he couldn't tell them the streets...but he said "let me go get my GPS"  (paraphrasing).

Yes.  Actually, I thought that only portions of the calls were released.  It was never stated that what we heard was the full call.  I figured that LE released only what was safe for public hearing at this time.

[Hudsunn]

I am really surprised that so much stuff continues to come out about the Caylee case, even over the holidays.  I thought it would dry up for a while.  Are the Anthonys getting out at all now or saying anything directly?  And is it true Lee moved?

[O4Bull]

Quote from: Bearlyhere on Today at 09:53:16 PM
We must be getting near page 100, the cage is starting to stink.





Agree.   Let's change the subject.

I feel a document dump coming this week.   Anyone else feel it?

YES!!  I feel a dump coming.    It's almost like a "you can smell it before it gets here" kinda dump.

[islandmonkey]

My first post.........

I have the utmost respect for TM and his organization.

Oh.....and I love my Dyson.  The BEST vacuum, ever!

WELCOME PIN!!!  Have you been told about the Kahlua rule?? Come sit next to me!! Have you been in any accidents lately? How ya feeling?? What is your feelings on LP?..... NO! Don't answer that one!!
  

Boo just remember to share

[Pin]

My first post.........

I have the utmost respect for TM and his organization.

Oh.....and I love my Dyson.  The BEST vacuum, ever!

WELCOME PIN!!!  Have you been told about the Kahlua rule?? Come sit next to me!! Have you been in any accidents lately? How ya feeling?? What is your feelings on LP?..... NO! Don't answer that one!!
  

Thanks to you and MuffyBee for the welcome.  I am ignorant on the Kahlua rule....lol, but am intrigued.
My feelings about LP.........wait, which camera should I speak to? 

[cuteascanbe]

Good night fellow monkeys!!

[Lucinda]

This may sound like a dumb question, but Im wondering where they will pick the jury from.  Will they be from Florida?  I just about think every person in USA has heard of this case, and hates caseys guts. 

Actually, I've talked to a number of people in the US that haven't heard of this case.  The ones that  have said things like, "oh, you mean the mother that partied like crazy after her daughter died".  Or "those poor grandparents..." But often times, the people I've talked to don't know about the case.  Casey's lawyers will probably try to use the excessive publicity as a point to say Casey can't get a fair trial, or try to move the trial elsewhere.  And by the way, there are no dumb questions.   

well, I suppose what media outlets they have, like cable, internet etc. Im quite surprised that there are people in USA that havent heard of this case.  Not many Australians have, its not on our news here that I have seen.  Wish I could be on the jury 

[MuffyBee]

Pin ~  You are welcome here at SM, but please let's drop LP for a while.  We just started a new thread. 

[islandmonkey]

My first post.........

I have the utmost respect for TM and his organization.

Oh.....and I love my Dyson.  The BEST vacuum, ever!

WELCOME PIN!!!  Have you been told about the Kahlua rule?? Come sit next to me!! Have you been in any accidents lately? How ya feeling?? What is your feelings on LP?..... NO! Don't answer that one!!
  

Thanks to you and MuffyBee for the welcome.  I am ignorant on the Kahlua rule....lol, but am intrigued.
My feelings about LP.........wait, which camera should I speak to? 

I think you fit in just perfectly Welcome aboard Pin

[AZLady]

I am really surprised that so much stuff continues to come out about the Caylee case, even over the holidays.  I thought it would dry up for a while.  Are the Anthonys getting out at all now or saying anything directly?  And is it true Lee moved?

Hudsunn, I think the media is milking this case as far as they can.  Since Caylee's body has been found and identified, not much new has come out.  I did hear that Lee moved.  The Anthony's have been very quiet.  I do think that LE is getting serious with all of them, making it clear that if they do not testify honestly, they may be charged themselves.  That would make a person become very quiet.

[Lucinda]

Good night fellow monkeys!!

goodnight cutey 

[wendiw8780]

My first post.........

I have the utmost respect for TM and his organization.

Oh.....and I love my Dyson.  The BEST vacuum, ever!

i like you already!!!
1-you respect TM
2-YOU LOVE YOUR DYSON!