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Author Topic: Lively Case Discussion #528 9/29 - 10/2/2006  (Read 113314 times)
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terryd270
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« Reply #620 on: October 01, 2006, 09:22:59 AM »

I read the statements but are they 15 months too late..  This coverup must of cost a lot of money and it just makes you wonder how much power the Sloots have..  I just hope there are those in another camp that want to see the Sloots fall and maybe they will find away for us to get the real evidence to put Joran away..
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terryd270
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« Reply #621 on: October 01, 2006, 09:28:47 AM »

So I guess there is no rush for this New Dutch team to get started..  I hope someone just tells Natalee's family where their daughter is, so they can have some kind of closure.. Do I believe these PIMPS will ever get put away for this crime, not really.. Aruba is their play ground and it seems it still is.. Even if they clean the place up and replaced those in charged, the ones that did the coverup will be promotted and moved to other places in the government..  They will take care of each other and therefore I don't believe that the Dutch will do anything different.. It was the Dutch that allowed this island to become corrupt and it was the judges that allowed the suspect to be free..
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terryd270
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« Reply #622 on: October 01, 2006, 09:35:12 AM »

They have no fear of telling us one thing while we watched them do the opposite..  I wouldn't be surprised if they all don't get awards as being a top run police force in Aruba.  So does all the islands that the Dutch rule have the same problems?  I bet they are all cookie cutters of the same system.. The NEW DUTCH team will come over and eat with who?  I assume they will all hang around and talk about everything Dutch and then write their report up saying that they need more man hours and a few more vehicles for the new police chief..  Dompig will get a big bonus and maybe a new position as a consultant to the new police force..  So I guess we will see..
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terryd270
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« Reply #623 on: October 01, 2006, 09:42:02 AM »

For you to really think this new Dutch team is going to do anything different, then you would have to think that the Dutch really didn't know what was going on, on that island.  That the judges were not friends of Paulus and that Natalee is sitting in her dorm room in Tuscaloosa studying for her exams this week..
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the big hammer
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« Reply #624 on: October 01, 2006, 09:46:30 AM »

Another Ruse?

San wrote: This is just my opinion but this is the reason for the Dutch coming in. This is all part of their plan.

I hope you're wrong, but I think you're right.

Enormous amount of resources expended, as well as the reputational capital of Aruba, in order to exonerate an 18 yr old miscreant.

I add that unlike Art Wood, I don't see this as a "professional coverup".  If it was "professional," this would have all ended with the railroading of Mickey and Abe.  And as SM poster "Scared Tom" said long ago: "We'd all go home to light candles."  

Far from "professional" -- this thing was botched, and the HT Family ripped the lid off the cesspool, exposing duplicity, fraud, malfeasance --which by themsleves call for criminal prosecutions.  And Aruba brought it upon themselves, and now they can all live with the economic and emotional costs.

.
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terryd270
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« Reply #625 on: October 01, 2006, 09:46:58 AM »

The Dutch and Aruba have lost any credibility to me and anything they say I discount.. When they do something then I might change my mind.. It hasn't happen yet.. So when a lier says "Trust Me" and we trust them, then don't be disappointed..
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terryd270
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« Reply #626 on: October 01, 2006, 09:50:43 AM »

Its Sunday I need to go for a ride and watch some football later.. I hope everyone has a good Sunday..  Cheers!
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blah
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« Reply #627 on: October 01, 2006, 09:51:17 AM »

Quote from: "igsigs"
Quote from: "klaasend"

On November 1, 2006 Deepak and Satish Kalpoe will ask the courts to clear their name officially as suspect the in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway. Another local media also has the information that Joran will also do the same and if both cases are successfull, a judge will close the case.

I don't see how they K2 can have their names "cleared" at this point. They conspired with Joran to mislead a murder investigation, and the "breaking" of the conpiracy has proven not to have led to the truth. Differing accounts remain. K2 should not be cleared, and Joran won't be.


There could be some truth to the fact they are in court trying to clear themselves as suspects.  It could be a desperate attempt to clear themselves before the Dutch come in to investigate.  I could see something like this happening ad even working on Aruba.  If they get cleared before the Dutch get there, then they cant be arrested/questioned as suspects and probably not as witnesses either.
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blah
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« Reply #628 on: October 01, 2006, 09:55:27 AM »

Quote from: "spooky112483"
if all 3 remaining suspects are cleared like Paulus was...do they automaticaly close the case because there are no more named suspects?
and if they close the case is that better or worse for the Dutch team to go over the case? do we want them to close the case at this point or not...so sorry for my silly questions, ya'll know I do not understand their system Rolling Eyes


for some reason, i remember someone saying that if they closed the case, then the FBI would be free to conduct an investigation.  I think the family would also be given all of the evidence (if there is any)

I dont know how much truth there is to any of this.
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LilPuma
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« Reply #629 on: October 01, 2006, 10:46:43 AM »

Quote from: "blah"
Quote from: "spooky112483"
if all 3 remaining suspects are cleared like Paulus was...do they automaticaly close the case because there are no more named suspects?
and if they close the case is that better or worse for the Dutch team to go over the case? do we want them to close the case at this point or not...so sorry for my silly questions, ya'll know I do not understand their system Rolling Eyes


for some reason, i remember someone saying that if they closed the case, then the FBI would be free to conduct an investigation.  I think the family would also be given all of the evidence (if there is any)

I dont know how much truth there is to any of this.



I think they automatically closed the case a long time ago.  SOP, as we've seen and "whatever did happen is the fault of the Americans, not our people."  That's the message Aruba sent day in and day out as they were on the news daily along with Beth last summer.  Art Wood said that the FBI could investigate when the case was closed (it's a missing US citizen, not a murder in Aruba, right?).  I did hear that the family would get a copy of the file at the end of the case - don't recall who said it.
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Frijole
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« Reply #630 on: October 01, 2006, 10:46:50 AM »

Quote from: "blah"
Quote from: "spooky112483"
if all 3 remaining suspects are cleared like Paulus was...do they automaticaly close the case because there are no more named suspects?
and if they close the case is that better or worse for the Dutch team to go over the case? do we want them to close the case at this point or not...so sorry for my silly questions, ya'll know I do not understand their system Rolling Eyes


for some reason, i remember someone saying that if they closed the case, then the FBI would be free to conduct an investigation.  I think the family would also be given all of the evidence (if there is any)

I dont know how much truth there is to any of this.


Yep Blah - it was the lovely miss Arlene Shippers that said this.  Back when she was Aruba's press spokesperson.  Said it many times.  I've wondered it Aruba wasn't intentionally acting as if they were trying to solve the case so that this didn't happen.

Course now - I don't believe anything that was said by anyone representing Aruba.
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LilPuma
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« Reply #631 on: October 01, 2006, 11:01:31 AM »

There's a quote on the bottom of my post by a woman anthropoligist who studied human behavior in society:  Mead described how cultures differ in what behavior they consider appropriate. She was especially interested in studying personality development and gender roles in different cultures.  While we know that there are many differences in how we perceive things from other cultures, some within our own country, the dishonest, convoluted mentality we see coming from Aruba was certainly an eye-opener.  I don't know that any of us thought a country tied to another Western nation could be so mind-bogglingly messed up, not just different.   Crying or Very sad  If this bungled, corrupt, coverup of a government official and his son had occurred in the US, the outcry would have been deafening.  The good news is that now we know and Aruba's tourism numbers are the result.  I do think that the arrogance of Aruban authorities who never thought they had to be honest with the American public, snubbed their noses at Natalee's family from day 1 and basically told Americans to "shove it", is one of the reasons so many have stayed interested in this case.  Just my thoughts.  Nuff of that.  :::starts moving toward the shallow end:::
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klaasend
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« Reply #632 on: October 01, 2006, 11:23:05 AM »



October 1st 2006 9pm et

Dave Holloway will join me and discuss any recent developments in the case of his missing daughter Natalee


http://bruinfan.sasktelwebsite.net/


Call in number before and after the interview is 306-842-7884

Toll free number 1-877-842-7884
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nonesuche
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« Reply #633 on: October 01, 2006, 11:32:37 AM »

Thanks Klaas-

I guess we should plan to call into Dana's show tonight with questions just like the ones Blah and Frijole have just detailed? How about we get a bit more organized with a list of callers and questions this time in advance? I'd like to see us help Dave and Dana maximize that interview?

Of course I nominate Anna to call and Sunfreak, MsMarples, hey even Hammer and San????  Very Happy

I remember Dutchlady posting often regarding the power and reach of Paulus' family, I also remember how many discounted that over and over. Well I vote she was right.

Janssen is all about Janssen's career, even her own reports met with Dave to evidence that fact, unsure why it's taken until now for everyone to see this?
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I continue to stand with the girl.
LilPuma
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« Reply #634 on: October 01, 2006, 11:32:43 AM »

Quote from: "klaasend"


October 1st 2006 9pm et

Dave Holloway will join me and discuss any recent developments in the case of his missing daughter Natalee


http://bruinfan.sasktelwebsite.net/


Call in number before and after the interview is 306-842-7884

Toll free number 1-877-842-7884


Thanks Klaas!  Hope my puter stays up and running so I can listen live.  If it does, maybe I can get on the air without causing 'dead air' this time.   Smile
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nonesuche
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« Reply #635 on: October 01, 2006, 11:36:24 AM »

lilpuma-

I'll look for a high-five one but this one can do in the meantime?  Laughing

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LilPuma
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« Reply #636 on: October 01, 2006, 11:38:48 AM »

Quote from: "nonesuche"
lilpuma-

I'll look for a high-five one but this one can do in the meantime?  Laughing



I like it!  I'll e-mail SunFreak to find out how to put things in a post.  I have a cowboy smiley (in honor of KJ) but don't know how to put it in here!
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msmarple
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« Reply #637 on: October 01, 2006, 11:54:05 AM »

My weekend SM project - just posted this at the Murder & Crime thread (see my sig line).

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703-739-6826

This is a long message. I beg you to bear with me and read it through.

I am among many individuals who have followed the Natalee Holloway disappearance on Aruba – I am sure you are familiar with the subject. I read and post on several internet forums, primarily http://www.scaredmonkeys.net .

A column by David Grossman, a travel writer for USAToday, recently stated that Aruba had had "one murder in 20 years". The column subsequently has been edited (due, I think, to reaction from folks like me). He was quoting from a speech by Dr. Peter Tarlow at a tourism or travel agents meeting. Here is a link to the column as it now stands; notice the Editors Note at the beginning, and the current reference to “a handful of murders a year,” which is not the original wording:
http://tinyurl.com/mg6ju .

(Of course, "a handful" of murders is hardly a good recommendation. That handful exceeds the murder rate in the U.S. Read on.)

As a result of that original “1 in 20” statement, at the “scared monkeys” site, we began a new thread called Murder & Crime Rate in Aruba. We are collaborating on a list of murders and other violent crimes that have occurred there. Here is a link to the beginning of that discussion:
http://tinyurl.com/fau6z .

Our purpose is to show that Aruba deliberately and officially obscures violent crimes in the interest of tourism. For example, we believe that at least seven (7) murders (counting Miss Holloway) occurred in 2005. That’s considerably higher than the ratio touted to the travel industry – “one in 20 years,” “2.4 per year” are figures I have read. In fact, it is higher than the murder rate for the United States, according to FBI just-released statistics for the year 2005. (Link provided below.)

And more important, we believe that the deception alone constitutes good reason for Aruba to be on the U.S. State Department travel warning list, and for travel agents to make certain potential travelers are aware of the facts, as opposed to what Aruba "promotes". (We have sent our information to the State Department.)

Because what it means is that if serious harm comes your way, Aruba Law Enforcement -- with official blessing – will try to write that incident off as a suicide, accident, or other non-nefarious cause. Unless there’s relentless pressure from the victim’s family and a media blitz, they’ll get away with it.

As recently as Spring 2006, the Polis Chief stated that he believed Miss Holloway died from an accidental, self-induced overdose. He did not speculate as to what she then did with her corpse.

You can imagine how difficult it is to pull this information together. We are trying to read online versions of local newspapers, but most of them are not in English – Dutch, Papiamento, and Spanish are the local languages. (If you have ever tried “babblefish” or similar as a translator, you know what we’re going through … especially with Papiamento, which is the language for Diario, which has the largest circulation.) We only began this particular endeavor recently, and back issues are not readily available to us.
 
We initially only were looking for reported murders, but lately are suspicious about suicides, accidents, and other seemingly non-nefarious deaths. We have a recent Diario article suggesting that some cases deemed to be suicides during the last 20 years may have been due to foul play.

Diario 1/6/2006 article (excerpts):
Quote
High Command in Holland wants to conduct DNA tests on all suicide victims

Among other things, it is mentioned that with suicide cases, it is desired for all these cases, that DNA tests be conducted on the bodies.
Two unsolved cases were illustrated, in the first instance the victim committed suicide but it resulted later after the test, that this was not the case
.

Here is another example: on April 5, 2006, a man’s body was found near a cave. His body was crucified, burned, and otherwise unspeakably mutilated. This death was ruled a suicide or overdose, but “evidence has been sent to Holland for testing”. Admittedly I have not seen an outcome, but “evidence to Holland” has become an ominous joke to followers of the Holloway case. Meanwhile – what about the timely investigation that should have been underway?

Amigoe June 8 2006 article (excerpts):
Quote
ARUBA — Dinesh ‘Pitbull’ Djoegan had died of overdoses cocaine. At this moment, the Public Prosecutor (OM) does not have evidence that the 25-year old man that was found dead in the vicinity of the Guadirikiri cave on April 5th was murdered. Four suspects have been arrested and the examining magistrate has prolonged the custody of one of them with 8 days.
On Tuesday, Pitbull’s widow and her mother had talked with the district attorney, who leads the investigation on the death of Djoegan. The OM does not comment on the contents of this conversation. All they said was that in order to determine the cause of death, they had to send tests to the Netherlands. The family was informed that Pitbull was not murdered, but had an amount of cocaine in his body. There is a possibility that he was forced to take the drug. The OM is also investigating the relation between the cause of death and the fact that Djoegan was found burned and crucified.


We have another article re. a ship passenger who died on board. When the ship docked at Aruba, an autopsy suggested that death was due to natural causes. But when the body was returned to the man’s home country, another autopsy revealed that he had been strangled, and that there were visible indications of violence. The good news is that as a High Seas death, Interpol is investigating. The bad news is that, partly as a result of Aruba’s misdiagnosis, precious time was wasted. I am betting that the ship and/or its crew are closely connected to Aruba.

Diario 3/20/2006 article (excerpts):
Quote
ORANJESTAD (AAN): It seems that in Aruba, authorities immediately ‘guli manda abao’ [swallowed?] the story of the crew members of the ‘Rachel S’ ship, which arrived in Aruba the Sunday of Carnaval Grandi with a dead person on board.
There is a big possibility that the crew members ‘played a comedy’ which apparently turned bad, to cover up a possible crime that was committed on board.
The autopsy conducted in Aruba deduced that Bernard Ramsaran, 50 years of age, died of heart failure.
But now, an autopsy conducted in his country of Trinidad & Tobago, has deduced that Bernard died of something more sinister, ‘traumatic asphyxia’, which indicates that [he] was strangled and choked! His death is nothing natural! It is a crime which took place on the high seas and now Interpol is involved.
The question is, how could Aruban authorities not discover this? The Trinidad & Tobago authorities discovered that Bernard’s body even had several marks of violence.


There is every indication that corruption is entrenched at high and low levels of government. “Recreational” drugs are illegal on Aruba, but are available in abundance and overlooked. According to the C.I.A. World Factbook, Aruba is a “transit point for US- and Europe-bound narcotics with some accompanying money-laundering activity.” (Drugs are not illegal in Holland.) Now, drug availability may be a reason for some tourists to choose Aruba. But drug traffic on this scale, combined with the casinos, and money laundering, invites criminal activity and corruption.

Don’t get me started on the prostitution, pornography and sex-slave angles (including child porn). Suffice it to say that many are convinced that this is what happened to Miss Holloway. They compare her to 1998 cruise passenger Amy Bradley, who some believe to have been abducted into the sex industry.

The clubs and casinos do not enforce age restrictions re. alcohol and gambling, for tourists or locals. When local kids are gambling away a few hundred dollars, and spending maybe $25-$50 on alcohol, several nights a week, one wonders where their money is coming from. They seem to roam the clubs and casinos in packs; some don’t even have a driver’s license yet. I wouldn't want to spend a vacation in another country surrounded by local gangs of teenagers.

All of this -- on an island of less than 100,000 population. While some like to compare the U.S. murder rate to that of Aruba (which is whatever Aruba decides to say it is), FBI statistics show that Aruba compares poorly.

Although I am not expert as to Aruba’s political standing, I perceive that it is more than less independent from The Netherlands (unlike Bonaire and Curaçao). There is no pressure, martial law, FBI or similar outside intervention available - no accountability.

Those who dismiss the Natalee Holloway story as “another missing white girl” have no idea what reality is on the ground in Aruba. This is NOT like most media sensations. The investigation was inept by any country’s law enforcement standards, but Aruba neither acknowledges that or attempts to correct it. Further, I think as much official energy has been expended trashing the victim and her family, as on the investigation.

Please do not ignore the many things that are very wrong on that one happy island. U.S. travelers may still choose to go to Aruba, but if they perform due diligence, please don’t give them the wrong impression.

For a summary of our findings on murder in Aruba, look for this heading:
Summary - Murder & Crime on Aruba -
Most Recent Year first as of 9/15/2006

at this link (page 6):
http://tinyurl.com/zjmaz .

For FBI 2005 statistics on murder in the United States, look for this heading:
U.S. 2005 Statistics -
Murder and Non-Negligent Manslaughter

at this link (page 7); links to the FBI tables are there:
http://tinyurl.com/gaoef .

Also on that page, Page 7, is a translation of an ad the Aruba travel promoters recently ran in local papers. The purpose of the ad was to show how little crime, and reduction in crime figures over four years. No homicides are mentioned. See the Page 7 posts for 9/21/2006 at 6:52 a.m. and 9:15 a.m. We have now learned that the Aruba police union is disputing those figures, and claiming the crime rate has increased rather than decreased. For more about the dispute, see the post on Page 7, at 9/29/2006, 8:30 a.m.

You see, if that's the information your industry looks to, it's wrong, wrong, wrong. Just because they don't mention rapes and murders, doesn't mean they don't happen.

Please try to read the entire discussion at the web site. Some incidents are duplicated, but it's only 7 pages, and you will understand how this information has been compiled.

And most important - please try to ensure that U.S. travel agencies are NOT giving false reassurance to potential vacationers to Aruba.

If I can provide any more information to you - or perhaps in another format - please let me know. Thank you so much for your time.

< msmarple redacts personal info >
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Why did they have to disappear her body?

Murder & Crime on  Aruba Summary - http://tinyurl.com/2lhukn

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blah
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« Reply #638 on: October 01, 2006, 11:58:05 AM »

I was looking through some pictures and came across the one of Dave looking the sort of makshift cross with the initials N.H.  Then the thought crossed my mind that someone in the ALE releases new suspects initials when they make an arrest, much the same way as only the initials were written on this cross.  Could it be that the person who put that cross there is the same person who has that oddly releases suspects/witnesses initials when there is an arrest?  This is very weird behavior seeing that they always eventually admit to the persons full name.
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klaasend
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« Reply #639 on: October 01, 2006, 12:00:00 PM »

msmarple

WOW!  I applaud you!
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