Natalee Case Discussion #678 8/16 - 8/26/2007

[klaasend]

http://www.majorwager.com/forums/mess-hall/44196-anyone-else-following-natalee-holloway-case-19.html

08-28-2005, 12:54 AM 
clevfan 
Staff   Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 17,984 
 
 no new arrests today, but it has been reported that these guys have drugged and raped other girls in the past. 6 girls have come forward to implicate these 4 guys and things are heating up
 

[JusticeforNatalee]

Netherlands Bar Association
Help Desk
helpdesk@advocatenorde.nl

Maybe they could answer a few questions
about Dutch law--It's worth a try.

[Kermit]

Anna,

I found some more information that supports your posts:


"But then he (Oduber) proceeded to tell them how many hotels he had built, and how many other ongoiong projects he had. In fact he said he had $90 million project in the works. He continued rambling and Natalee’s family’s mood quickly changed, because they didn’t want to hear his self adulation" (Holloway, p.22)

[Observer]

http://www.majorwager.com/forums/mess-hall/44196-anyone-else-following-natalee-holloway-case-19.html

08-28-2005, 12:54 AM 
clevfan 
Staff   Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 17,984 
 
 no new arrests today, but it has been reported that these guys have drugged and raped other girls in the past. 6 girls have come forward to implicate these 4 guys and things are heating up
 

clevfan
Staff
    
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 17,984
 07-03-2005, 03:30 AM
 RE:Anyone else following this Natalee Holloway case?
these are suspect sites:

www.mrpinkproductions.com

www.guide2paradise.com


both are run by a guy orginally from michigan by the name of paul brough. he is good friends with lorenzo van rijn

old sites are: www.getlegalhookers.com and www.metronightlife.com
RE:Anyone else following this Natalee Holloway case?
What is kinda funny about this guy is that he is a guy from the Detroit area who's name is Paul Brough, he winters in Aruba and runs the local "let's go redwings" chapter there.
He has an escort service down in aruba and was stupid enough to have a few websites down there... www.mrpinkproductions.com and www.guide2paridise.com which used to be www.getlegalhookers.com

Now he is in a heap of trouble down there by the authorities due to this case, even if he isn't involved in it, he's is now cooked bigtime, LOL


Quote:
Originally posted by: clevfan
Aruba cops think X may mark the spot

NY DAILY NEWS
AUG 5

Police are said to be investigating whether a porn filmmaker might have had a hand in the May disappearance of Alabama teen Natalee Holloway in Aruba.
According to the latest scenario in the baffling case, someone may have been trying to talk the pretty 18-year-old honor student into appearing in an X-rated flick.

Aruba cops and the FBI are said to be looking to the porn world for leads.

Paul Barresi, a former adult-film producer who's now a private eye, says he heard about the possible inquiry from "another 'recruiter' who scouts South America for porn talent."


"Natalee would have been a perfect target - a naive girl from a small town," Barresi tells us. "The recruiter might tell her he wanted her to pose for some modeling test shots.

"The cops want to know whether [anyone] gave her a date-rape drug like GHB. Only, apparently, the plan went awry. She died," he theorizes, "and the porn guy may have had to get rid of her body."

Barresi believes the recruiter is likely to be "someone who lives out of a suitcase." The National Enquirer reports in its new issue that cops suspect he lives in Aruba.

The Enquirer's Rebecca Mowling and Don Gentile also report that one witness claims he saw three men dumping a body in a landfill site.

Investigators in Aruba couldn't be reached for comment yesterday.

[Kermit]

"While still on my October trip to Aruba, Art accompanied me to see Beth’s attorney, Helen Lejuez. She informed us that Jan van der Straten had been responsible for a previous cover-up on the island" (Holloway p. 185)

[Tamikosmom]

So I guess it was OK for Paulus to quiz Freddie because he was not Joran's OFFICIAL attorney at the time:

Quote:

The Code of Conduct of the Dutch Bar Association is somewhat ambivalent on the matter of lawyers conducting pre-trial investigations and certainly there is a taboo on speaking to a witness pre trial; although not expressly forbidden, it is simply not done. . . .

According to the following translation of Joran's book ... Joran's mother Anita and his attorney, Antonio Carlo, did all the questioning of Freddy ... not Paulus.  Anna ... when the "The Code of Conduct of the Dutch Bar Association" is taken into consideration ... Antonio Carlo's was committing a violation of its provisions.

Joran's Book

Page 154, Freddy after his June 12 statement:

(Joran) That night Freddy, per request of my mother, visited, to tell
everything.
 
Freddy's parents are coming along, because they do not find it a good
idea that Freddy goes alone. Besides my father Paul and my mother Anita.
 
My lawyer Anthony Carlo is also present at our home per request of my mother.

My mother asks Freddy to tell everything again.
 
Freddy: I could see on Anita's face that she did not know Joran had
left the girl on the beach and that he has lost his shoes. I also told
that Joran, Deepak, Satish and me had talked about it that I would buy new shoes for Joran. Anita could not believe everything I was telling. (as in amazed).
 
Carlo asks several times why Freddy thinks that Joran left his shoes behind.  Freddy answers: Joran did not want to walk with his shoes on the beach and probably left them behind because of that. Freddy tells the beachstory again that I would have told him on Monday May 30.
 
Carlo in between asks questions all the time.

Freddy: I felt he asked me those things because he thought that me as a good friend of Joran could understand why he had done these things. I do not believe he asked those questions because he thought Joran would have told me, because he repeated every time: Why do you think that?
 
My father does not ask Freddy anything, but he does react on Freddy's answers to my mother. He says: why does Joran lie, and why did he not tell us that?
 
My mother had promised the conversation would last 10 minutes max, but after half an hour Freddy's father gets up.
 
My parents did not agree with Joran's parents having invited me, Freddy says.
 
After Carlo had called the head officer for permission to visit me, he
confronts me with what Freddy had said. I immediately admitted I had
lied and that Freddy was telling the truth.

[Tamikosmom]

"While still on my October trip to Aruba, Art accompanied me to see Beth’s attorney, Helen Lejuez. She informed us that Jan van der Straten had been responsible for a previous cover-up on the island" (Holloway p. 185)

Ribbit   

[Kermit]

"While still on my October trip to Aruba, Art accompanied me to see Beth’s attorney, Helen Lejuez. She informed us that Jan van der Straten had been responsible for a previous cover-up on the island" (Holloway p. 185)

Ribbit   

Hi-ho!

 

[Leslie]

Diario
http://www.diarioaruba.com/
Amigoe
http://www.amigoe.com/english/
BonDia
http://www.cspnv.com/
Solo di Pueblo
http://www.solodipueblo.com/
Aruba Today
http://www.arubatoday.com/
24ora
http://www.24ora.com/
Translator:
http://papiamentu.donamaro.nl

[Leslie]

Rudy Croes info:
http://www.goldcoastaruba.com
http://www.goldcoastaruba.com/newsDtls.aspx?id=9
http://www.casbon.net/our-company.htm

[blah]

Quote from: Rammstein on August 16, 2007, 08:36:37 PM
Quote from: blah on August 16, 2007, 06:37:28 PM
I cannot belive you just said that, you believe that there should be no deterrent to keep an inmate from attempting escape?????????????

dude, you are really starting to go off the deep end here


do you know how many Dutch guards get killed or seriously wounded during break out attempts? Or how many cops get killed when hunting down the criminals?

If people who break out of jails do so with violence or commit acts of crime while out of jail then those offenses cause extra jail time.

And people are being deterred by the fact that they will spend extra time in jail from not being released early and from being sent to a maximum security facility with all kinds of restrictions as to visitors and movement.


Nice spin but unfortunatley it has nothing to do with what you just said about "they will not receive additional charges against them. You might find that strange, I don't. I think it makes perfect sense"!! 

Keep spinning!!



 

[wreck]

Quote from: Rammstein on August 16, 2007, 08:36:37 PM
Quote from: blah on August 16, 2007, 06:37:28 PM
I cannot belive you just said that, you believe that there should be no deterrent to keep an inmate from attempting escape?????????????

dude, you are really starting to go off the deep end here


do you know how many Dutch guards get killed or seriously wounded during break out attempts? Or how many cops get killed when hunting down the criminals?

If people who break out of jails do so with violence or commit acts of crime while out of jail then those offenses cause extra jail time.

And people are being deterred by the fact that they will spend extra time in jail from not being released early and from being sent to a maximum security facility with all kinds of restrictions as to visitors and movement.


Nice spin but unfortunatley it has nothing to do with what you just said about "they will not receive additional charges against them. You might find that strange, I don't. I think it makes perfect sense"!! 

Keep spinning!!



 

"No ice cream for a week!!!!!" 

[Anna]

Anna,

I found some more information that supports your posts:


"But then he (Oduber) proceeded to tell them how many hotels he had built, and how many other ongoing projects he had. In fact he said he had $90 million project in the works. He continued rambling and Natalee’s family’s mood quickly changed, because they didn’t want to hear his self adulation" (Holloway, p.22)

Kermit,

Thank you!  I do believe this is at the heart of the cover up and not any desire to protect individuals.  I further believe that all this construction would have been built with construction loans which have payments that come due and so it must be leased at all times.  Or sold in case of dire financial straits which the Aruban government had been in for some time.

I think this is Aruba's dirty little secret, they have mortgages on all those hotels and they are massive and they can't keep up the payments.  In order to sell said hotels, they would need a tourist industry that is not only stable but flourishing.  I do recall 12% increase as being a number they were promoting as to be realistically expected.

So I now wonder how many million and to whom did they owe and what was the shortfall in their cash flow.

Inquiring minds want to know. . . . .

[Anna]

Rudy Croes info:
http://www.goldcoastaruba.com
http://www.goldcoastaruba.com/newsDtls.aspx?id=9
http://www.casbon.net/our-company.htm

Quote from Casbon:

The range of the projects we undertook resulted in the construction of more then 310 homes and laid a solid and experienced organizational foundation for future growth. Our organization, today, is flexible and keen in adapting to the constantly changing market place. Our biggest asset is our close interrelationship with our customers, suppliers, employees, banks and the local community in general.
. . .

In 2006, Cas Bon, one of the largest construction companies of private homes, will construct more then 80 quality new homes all around Aruba.
---------

All kinds of construction going on in Aruba.

[wreck]

Rudy Croes info:
http://www.goldcoastaruba.com
http://www.goldcoastaruba.com/newsDtls.aspx?id=9
http://www.casbon.net/our-company.htm

Quote from Casbon:

The range of the projects we undertook resulted in the construction of more then 310 homes and laid a solid and experienced organizational foundation for future growth. Our organization, today, is flexible and keen in adapting to the constantly changing market place. Our biggest asset is our close interrelationship with our customers, suppliers, employees, banks and the local community in general.
. . .

In 2006, Cas Bon, one of the largest construction companies of private homes, will construct more then 80 quality new homes all around Aruba.
---------

All kinds of construction going on in Aruba.

...so, how many Arubans got "new homes" to keep quiet about the Government"???

[Anna]

So I guess it was OK for Paulus to quiz Freddie because he was not Joran's OFFICIAL attorney at the time:

Quote:

The Code of Conduct of the Dutch Bar Association is somewhat ambivalent on the matter of lawyers conducting pre-trial investigations and certainly there is a taboo on speaking to a witness pre trial; although not expressly forbidden, it is simply not done. . . .

According to the following translation of Joran's book ... Joran's mother Anita and his attorney, Antonio Carlo, did all the questioning of Freddy ... not Paulus.  Anna ... when the "The Code of Conduct of the Dutch Bar Association" is taken into consideration ... Antonio Carlo's was committing a violation of its provisions.

Joran's Book

Page 154, Freddy after his June 12 statement:

(Joran) That night Freddy, per request of my mother, visited, to tell
everything.
 
Freddy's parents are coming along, because they do not find it a good
idea that Freddy goes alone. Besides my father Paul and my mother Anita.
 
My lawyer Anthony Carlo is also present at our home per request of my mother.

My mother asks Freddy to tell everything again.
 
Freddy: I could see on Anita's face that she did not know Joran had
left the girl on the beach and that he has lost his shoes. I also told
that Joran, Deepak, Satish and me had talked about it that I would buy new shoes for Joran. Anita could not believe everything I was telling. (as in amazed).
 
Carlo asks several times why Freddy thinks that Joran left his shoes behind.  Freddy answers: Joran did not want to walk with his shoes on the beach and probably left them behind because of that. Freddy tells the beachstory again that I would have told him on Monday May 30.
Carlo in between asks questions all the time.

Freddy: I felt he asked me those things because he thought that me as a good friend of Joran could understand why he had done these things. I do not believe he asked those questions because he thought Joran would have told me, because he repeated every time: Why do you think that?
 
My father does not ask Freddy anything, but he does react on Freddy's answers to my mother. He says: why does Joran lie, and why did he not tell us that?
 
My mother had promised the conversation would last 10 minutes max, but after half an hour Freddy's father gets up.
 
My parents did not agree with Joran's parents having invited me, Freddy says.
 
After Carlo had called the head officer for permission to visit me, he
confronts me with what Freddy had said. I immediately admitted I had
lied and that Freddy was telling the truth.

Ah, you are so right, Janet.  And they say it just isn't done yet here we have not one but two attorneys grilling a witness.

Note the above in BLUE.  Confession is indeed good for the soul and I can't think of a soul in more need than Joran's.  He just can't keep it straight when he told all that to Freddie.  Sounds like Monday before he should have known anything about anybody being missing.
.

[Anna]

And yes, I realize it is Paulus pretending that he is not grilling Freddie by having Anita do it.  I think he even left the room and went into the kitchen at one point to further give this impression but I would bet he did not get out of listening range.

[Easywriter]

There is really no point in doing battle over the nuances of Dutch Law.  I don’t think the poster is deliberately trying to mislead us, but his posting style can be a little caustic and implies something is written in stone.  It would take a highly trained professional to fully interpret the law as it applies to particular cases.

In the U.S. LE can talk to a witness all day long and ask any question conceivable, but as soon as his arrest someone he must Mirandize the suspect and the 5th amendment rights kick in.  If that suspect request legal representation, all questioning must stop until that is done.  That is not to say that any lies the suspect told as a witness will not come back to haunt him at trial.  This is not that much different than what I am reading about Dutch Law and witness/suspect status.

Again, in the U.S. a spouse and other relatives can not be forced to testify at trial against a suspect, but that does not give them a free pass.  If they give false alibis or other false information in order to hinder an investigation they could be charged with that crime.

What we do now know about Dutch Law is that obstruction of justice is a crime, plea bargains exists, informants exists, endangered witness status is available and the prosecutor is all powerful until a case is presented to a judge.

[msmarple]

http://www.amigoe.com/english/  August 16, 2007

Chávez: The seas all the way
to the Greater Antilles are Venezuela’s  

WILLEMSTAD – By order of the National Government, director Dito Mendes de Gouveia of Foreign Affairs Administration (DBB) in Willemstad has asked the ministry of Foreign Affairs in The Hague for advice on the most recent statements of the Venezuelan president, Hugo Chavez, who while addressing the Venezuelan parliament – la Asamblea Nacional – indicated that his country can claim everything that lies within 200 nautical miles from Venezuela.   

Around noon, Mendes declared before Z86 that he cannot imagine that with this, Chavez is targeting the Neth.Antilles.  There are ratified treaties on sea-borders, says Mendes.  He assumes that Chavez is actually targeting the Aves Island that lays a little south of Saba and Statia.  This island is uninhabited and gets flooded by the sea in certain periods of the year.  There is a dispute going on with the nearby independent islands.

“But, we are watching the situation closely and other than advice, we have also asked for further information”, said Mendes.  DBB considers the relations with Venezuela as normal.  Mendes also says that canceling the intended official visit of Prime Minister Emily de Jongh-Elhage (PAR) to Caracas and the return visit of Chavez is out of the question. 

While addressing the parliament last Wednesday, Chavez announced that he wants to have an investigation conducted on the northern border of Venezuela.  Diario El Progreso is one of the newspapers that reported this.  According to Chavez, Venezuela does not border on what he calls ‘el mar de las Antillas’, but on Hispaniola (Dominican Republic and Haiti), Puerto Rico (the so-called Greater Antilles), and the Eastern Caribbean Islands.    In addition to the 12 miles territorial waters over which Venezuela has exclusive sovereignty, the president also wants the Venezuelan rights to apply in the exclusive economic zone – the so-called 200-mile zone.  “All that is Venezuela”, he said.

Following the countries around the North Pole, also Venezuela is now going to check how much it can still get in the 200-mile zone.  Russia, Canada, the United States, Denmark, and Iceland already announced in the past weeks that they claim the underwater territories of the North Pole.  Argentina has already announced earlier that she has mapped the underwater territories in the Atlantic Ocean.  According to the UN-convention about Maritime Law, the ‘constitution for the world seas’, countries bordering the sea can claim an economic zone of up to 200 miles offshore.  However, when the continental shelf reaches further than that, the countries can claim the seabed, including everything underneath it, up to a maximum of 350 miles offshore. 

In order to accurately determine the underwater borders, the UN had established a committee for the borders of the continental shelf.  The member-states of the convention received 10 years, from 1999 till 2009, to figure out the exact size of their underwater territory.  Countries in these zones have the right to explore the resources of the water and seabed. 

AVEZ ISLAND

The coordinates of Aves Island are in latitude 15.67 degrees north and in longitude 63.62 degrees west.  The island lays a few hundred miles west of Dominica in the Caribbean Sea, so, even though it lays 800 kilometers offshore, it officially belongs to Venezuela.  Do not confuse this island with the uninhabited group of islands between Bonaire and Los Roques that are also called the Aves-islands.  The island is a volcanic atoll and is grown over with corals and covered with sand.  The size of the island varies from season to season.  It disappears completely under water when a hurricane passes over.  Expectations are that this is also going to happen this coming weekend when hurricane Dean passes over.  The island is very unique for the special seabirds and turtles that lay their eggs.   

If Venezuela looses the island, the country also looses an exclusive zone of 150.000 square meters around it.  The Venezuelan government has created a platform on the island for the army that stay there all year round, also when hurricanes passes over.  A whole lot of paperwork is required to get on the island.  It is being managed by a special government department. 

* * *

Dissatisfaction with quads increases 

ORANJESTAD – The dissatisfaction with the quad races, especially popular to tourists, continues to grow.  AZV complained earlier about the high medical costs due to accidents with these quads.  Parke Nacional Arikok is currently considering taking actions against quad racers and other motorized traffic in the Park. 

Reason for this is the incident that took place late last week, when unknown persons crossed through the dunes of Dos Playa and killed several little turtles that had just hatched out of their eggs.  Park rangers assume that quad racers are responsible for this, because they saw tire tracks in the sand.  They will announce this Friday what measures they are going to take to prevent this from happening again. 

Signs have been posted in 2005, informing the people that it is not allowed to drive through the dunes or on the beach.  But people are still crossing, with all the consequences for the vegetation, birds and turtles that lay their eggs in this area, the beaches and the dunes. 

Several instances are also worried about the traffic safety of the quads.  Two people died in accidents with quads last year.  The hospital says that an average of 25 to 30 accidents with quads take place on an annual basis.  The injuries are almost always serious.  These accidents happen because the drivers do not comply with traffic rules.  They do not wear a helmet and most of the time they are not properly dressed.   

Another problem is that accidents with quads often take place in remote areas and more people and material are needed, like a helicopter, to get to them and transport them.  Two tourists were injured in accidents with their quads last Monday and Tuesday.  Up till now, there are no figures of the number of accidents with these vehicles. 

[San]

http://www.majorwager.com/forums/mess-hall/44196-anyone-else-following-natalee-holloway-case-19.html

08-27-2005, 12:21 AM 
clevfan  
Staff   Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 17,984 
 
 There supposedly is going to be another arrest, probably tomorrow. Freddie is Joran's friend, he also lives right behind Joran's little apt. and he somehow connects to a car. The authorities are saying this gang of boys raped Natalee.

They are letting the 3 that were brought in today sit tight until 11pm tonight and then they are going to start interrogating them heavily

I have always wondered who lived in that house right next to Joran's apartment.  If Freddy is connected to a car I believe that he was with Jaime in the car.  No way was he traveling alone.  He was with his best friend for life as he said in one of his photos with Jaime.  Jaime is involved in this crime and I believe he was holding something for Joran.  Out of all the suspects brought in Jaime was the only one asked if Joran gave him something to hold.  Why would the ALE ask him this question if they didn't know something already.