Natalee Case Discussion #678 8/16 - 8/26/2007

[wreck]

     Judge C. Ellen Connally, retired as a Suprem Court Judge of Ohio in 2004.  In 2006, due to the resignation of Cleveland's Chief Prosecutor, Ms. Connally was asked to temporarilly serve as a Special Prosecutor in order to bring  closure  to four pending death cases involving police and the use of "necessary" or unnecssary force.   She was not Acting as a Judge, she was retired........She was not sitting on the bench during this trial!!!!   There is no such thing as a Prosecutor/Judge.   

          Many Prosecutors go on to become Judges.   Many also become defense attorneys, as that is far more lucrative!!!!!!

A Prosecutor can't decide guilt but CAN decide whether or not to bring charges (so they can essentially decide innocence)

[Auntiem]

Bottom line about this "public interest" approach to prosecute or not - On Aruba, anything that might be perceived as detrimental to tourism will not be pursued, for that reason.

I think we all GOT that memo a while back.

And I haven't seen any indication that Aruba has taken a proactive approach to eliminating activity that might have led to Natalee's disappearance.

Is the drinking age being enforced? Gambling age? Is anybody working undercover at C&C's (for example) re. drugged drinks? Any arrests for dealing date-rape drugs?

JVDS and Satish should not have been at the Holiday Inn casino, or at C&C's ...

     To investigate these crimes and then to Prosecute the criminals,( besides housing,  feeding them & then paying them their stipend for time served) would be an economic burden on the Aruban Public......it would NOT be in their best interest!!!!!



   

[San]

Bottom line about this "public interest" approach to prosecute or not - On Aruba, anything that might be perceived as detrimental to tourism will not be pursued, for that reason.

I think we all GOT that memo a while back.

And I haven't seen any indication that Aruba has taken a proactive approach to eliminating activity that might have led to Natalee's disappearance.

Is the drinking age being enforced? Gambling age? Is anybody working undercover at C&C's (for example) re. drugged drinks? Any arrests for dealing date-rape drugs?

JVDS and Satish should not have been at the Holiday Inn casino, or at C&C's ...

I agree msmarple.

[dennisintn]

Bottom line about this "public interest" approach to prosecute or not - On Aruba, anything that might be perceived as detrimental to tourism will not be pursued, for that reason.

I think we all GOT that memo a while back.

And I haven't seen any indication that Aruba has taken a proactive approach to eliminating activity that might have led to Natalee's disappearance.

Is the drinking age being enforced? Gambling age? Is anybody working undercover at C&C's (for example) re. drugged drinks? Any arrests for dealing date-rape drugs?

JVDS and Satish should not have been at the Holiday Inn casino, or at C&C's ...

this is the island of aruba.  police and f.b.i. reports are routinely handed over to our equivalent of the chamber of commerce, but a.l.e. can't keep the victim's family updated because it isn't allowed under their laws.  
this is the island where police reports to media are o.k.'ed by ahata and ata before they're allowed to be given.
this is the island that makes announcements to other caribbean nations how difficult it is to have one message for the local media and an entirely different one for american media. use your own discretion to figure out what that means.
this is the island that was all helpful and friendly to the victim's family until the two security guards were released from suspicion and the spotlight focused on the privileged and pampered children of "people of influence" on the island.
there are not going to be any new laws passed or old laws enforced that might inconvenience the pursuit of tourists and their money.  a certain percentage of these tourists would not come if they couldn't be assured of not being hassled in their pursuit of drugs, prostitution, and other minor sins such as money laundering.
dennisintn

[Auntiem]

     Judge C. Ellen Connally, retired as a Suprem Court Judge of Ohio in 2004.  In 2006, due to the resignation of Cleveland's Chief Prosecutor, Ms. Connally was asked to temporarilly serve as a Special Prosecutor in order to bring  closure  to four pending death cases involving police and the use of "necessary" or unnecssary force.   She was not Acting as a Judge, she was retired........She was not sitting on the bench during this trial!!!!   There is no such thing as a Prosecutor/Judge.   

          Many Prosecutors go on to become Judges.   Many also become defense attorneys, as that is far more lucrative!!!!!!

A Prosecutor can't decide guilt but CAN decide whether or not to bring charges (so they can essentially decide innocence)

        They cannot decide innocence.......they must determine IF they have enough evidence to bring to a Grand Jury......They are not in this alone.....they are not the "gatherers" of evidence.   They work with the Police, the main providers of evidence.

  If you want to get technical, and say they can hide evidence as in Aruba...sure they can do that.......that is called CORRUPTION!!!!!!

[wreck]

     Judge C. Ellen Connally, retired as a Suprem Court Judge of Ohio in 2004.  In 2006, due to the resignation of Cleveland's Chief Prosecutor, Ms. Connally was asked to temporarilly serve as a Special Prosecutor in order to bring  closure  to four pending death cases involving police and the use of "necessary" or unnecssary force.   She was not Acting as a Judge, she was retired........She was not sitting on the bench during this trial!!!!   There is no such thing as a Prosecutor/Judge.   

          Many Prosecutors go on to become Judges.   Many also become defense attorneys, as that is far more lucrative!!!!!!

A Prosecutor can't decide guilt but CAN decide whether or not to bring charges (so they can essentially decide innocence)

        They cannot decide innocence.......they must determine IF they have enough evidence to bring to a Grand Jury......They are not in this alone.....they are not the "gatherers" of evidence.   They work with the Police, the main providers of evidence.

  If you want to get technical, and say they can hide evidence as in Aruba...sure they can do that.......that is called CORRUPTION!!!!!!

I said they "essentially" can determine innocense. They do have the power to decide whether to prosecute or take a case to Grand Jury.

[Auntiem]

   A Prosecutor is a Government official, who's job it is to bring to Justice the defendant charged with a criminal offense.   In other words he/she is the attorney for the victim.

[Rammstein]

I said they "essentially" can determine innocense. They do have the power to decide whether to prosecute or take a case to Grand Jury.

they can also decide who to give a favorable plea bargain and who not.

[wreck]

I said they "essentially" can determine innocense. They do have the power to decide whether to prosecute or take a case to Grand Jury.

they can also decide who to give a favorable plea bargain and who not.

That is true, BUT all plea Bargains must be approved by a judge.

[Auntiem]

   You said  they essentially can decide whether a suspect is "innocent".  They cannot.  They must bring him to a Grand Jury if they have substantial evidence.  If substantial evidence is not found, the suspect may not be indited at that point in time, however, he is not declared innocent. He can, and MUST be brought in front of a Grand Jury if in the future substantial evidence IS found.  
         It is the Prosecutor's job to see that suspects accused of a crime are investigated, and when the evidence is substantial their job is to see that the criminal is convicted!!!!

[Auntiem]

   You are correct on the Plea bargaining, Wreck.    Now, Ramm is an expert on American Juris Prudence???

[wreck]

  You said  they essentially can decide whether a suspect is "innocent".  They cannot.  They must bring him to a Grand Jury if they have substantial evidence.  If substantial evidence is not found, the suspect may not be indited at that point in time, however, he is not declared innocent. He can, and MUST be brought in front of a Grand Jury if in the future substantial evidence IS found.  
         It is the Prosecutor's job to see that suspects accused of a crime are investigated, and when the evidence is substantial their job is to see that the criminal is convicted!!!!

Well, we just disagree then. Yes, a Prosecutor SHOULD prosecute when the evidence is present. In high profile cases, there will be a lot of public scrutiny of their decisions. In many cases of "not so much public awareness" -- decisions to prosecute or not are made every day.

[Hat]

  A Prosecutor is a Government official, who's job it is to bring to Justice the defendant charged with a criminal offense.   In other words he/she is the attorney for the victim.

The People.

[Tamikosmom]

     Judge C. Ellen Connally, retired as a Suprem Court Judge of Ohio in 2004.  In 2006, due to the resignation of Cleveland's Chief Prosecutor, Ms. Connally was asked to temporarilly serve as a Special Prosecutor in order to bring  closure  to four pending death cases involving police and the use of "necessary" or unnecssary force.   She was not Acting as a Judge, she was retired........She was not sitting on the bench during this trial!!!!   There is no such thing as a Prosecutor/Judge.   

          Many Prosecutors go on to become Judges.   Many also become defense attorneys, as that is far more lucrative!!!!!!

A Prosecutor can't decide guilt but CAN decide whether or not to bring charges (so they can essentially decide innocence)

In the United States and Canada the prosecutor has a responsibility to act on behalf of the victim.  If the prosecutor is acting ethically ... she/he is not going to disregard ANY evidence that will uphold that purpose.  It is only when she cannot obtain the required evidence to prosecute the acccused that it is determined that the case cannot go to trial.

Wreck ... as we are being led to believe in regards to Dutch law ... in Canada and the United States ... the prosecutor is not a  power unto her/himself.  Disclosure is granted to the family of the victim and ... if the family believes that the prosecutor did not act in the best interest of the victim by refusing to pursue the case ... her/his decision not to prosecute can be appealed.

I just obtained this info from my hubby's nephew who is a practicing defence attorney ... specializing in criminal law ... in the province of British Columbia, Canada.

Janet

[wreck]

     Judge C. Ellen Connally, retired as a Suprem Court Judge of Ohio in 2004.  In 2006, due to the resignation of Cleveland's Chief Prosecutor, Ms. Connally was asked to temporarilly serve as a Special Prosecutor in order to bring  closure  to four pending death cases involving police and the use of "necessary" or unnecssary force.   She was not Acting as a Judge, she was retired........She was not sitting on the bench during this trial!!!!   There is no such thing as a Prosecutor/Judge.   

          Many Prosecutors go on to become Judges.   Many also become defense attorneys, as that is far more lucrative!!!!!!

A Prosecutor can't decide guilt but CAN decide whether or not to bring charges (so they can essentially decide innocence)

In the United States and Canada the prosecutor has a responsibility to act on behalf of the victim.  If the prosecutor is acting ethically ... she/he is not going to disregard ANY evidence that will uphold that purpose.  It is only when she cannot obtain the required evidence to prosecute the acccused that it is determined that the case cannot go to trial.

Wreck ... as we are being led to believe in regards to Dutch law ... in Canada and the United States ... the prosecutor is not a  power unto her/himself.  Disclosure is granted to the family of the victim and ... if the family believes that the prosecutor did not act in the best interest of the victim by refusing to pursue the case ... her/his decision not to prosecute can be appealed.

I just obtained this info from my hubby's nephew who is a practicing defence attorney ... specializing in criminal law ... in the province of British Columbia, Canada.

Janet

Everyone is misunderstanding me. The Prosecutor is legally charged with the responsibility to prosecute where there is evidence of a crime. The prosecutor makes a decision of each and every case whether to prosecute or not. Everyone of these cases is subject to PUBLIC scrutiny of his/hers decisions. In many cases, no one bothers to review these decisons. That is why I keep saying "ESSENTIALLY".

[klaasend]

  A Prosecutor is a Government official, who's job it is to bring to Justice the defendant charged with a criminal offense.   In other words he/she is the attorney for the victim.

The People.

Hat - great to see you!  Yes, you are correct!

[crazybabyborg]

  A Prosecutor is a Government official, who's job it is to bring to Justice the defendant charged with a criminal offense.   In other words he/she is the attorney for the victim.

The People.

WELCOME BACK HAT! Implicit in the prosecutor being the representitive of the people is that the public at large desires to hold perpetrators of crimes accountable, so that the public safety and well being is protected. I really believe that the average Aruban wants that, but I'm not convinced that all in authority place a high priority on it.

[KarmaRoundUp]

Bottom line about this "public interest" approach to prosecute or not - On Aruba, anything that might be perceived as detrimental to tourism will not be pursued, for that reason.

I think we all GOT that memo a while back.

And I haven't seen any indication that Aruba has taken a proactive approach to eliminating activity that might have led to Natalee's disappearance.

Is the drinking age being enforced? Gambling age? Is anybody working undercover at C&C's (for example) re. drugged drinks? Any arrests for dealing date-rape drugs?

JVDS and Satish should not have been at the Holiday Inn casino, or at C&C's ...

this is the island of aruba.  police and f.b.i. reports are routinely handed over to our equivalent of the chamber of commerce, but a.l.e. can't keep the victim's family updated because it isn't allowed under their laws.  
this is the island where police reports to media are o.k.'ed by ahata and ata before they're allowed to be given.
this is the island that makes announcements to other caribbean nations how difficult it is to have one message for the local media and an entirely different one for american media. use your own discretion to figure out what that means.
this is the island that was all helpful and friendly to the victim's family until the two security guards were released from suspicion and the spotlight focused on the privileged and pampered children of "people of influence" on the island.
there are not going to be any new laws passed or old laws enforced that might inconvenience the pursuit of tourists and their money.  a certain percentage of these tourists would not come if they couldn't be assured of not being hassled in their pursuit of drugs, prostitution, and other minor sins such as money laundering.
dennisintn

Hi Monkeys
I agree,I don't think aruba has done a thing to make sure their once happy island is safe.I don't see any changes at all,except even more ads for tourists to come for a visit.
I do disagree with the above bolded....I don't think ALE or anyone on aruba was ever helpful to Beth and Dave while they conducted their own searches for their beloved daughter.IMO the whole investigating(so called)was focused on the privileged,the pampered...namely Joran and the VDS's and on how to get the focus OFF of this family.Also they tried their best to wrap a cocoon around the VDS.IF they had put as much effort into doing a real and unbiased investigation(put in as much effort as they did to try and cover it up),this would have been over,there would have been justice for Natalee,they would have found Natalee and maybe their tourism monies would'nt have been effected the way it is now.

[Hat]

Thanks for the greetings.

Sadly victims are often beyond benefit of a court action.

[crazybabyborg]

Exactly. There's an Aruban mental block around the concept that AIDING a REAL investigation, and PURSUING the case WHEREVER it honestly leads, is the BEST protection of tourism dollers they can possibly have! What's so hard about that!?