Natalee Case Discussion #825 10/12/09 - 11/07/09

[jen3560]

Thank you for this TxMom!

Beth is truly an inspiring woman - and if SHE can have hope, with all she has endured.......then so can we!

Hope is the inexplicable empowerment that enables us to move successfully from challenge to resolution with courage....

It's the guarantee that there's light at the end of whatever tunnel we're trying to find our way through....

It's more than just wishful thinking....

It's more than just a feeling....

Beth Holloway

 

[jen3560]

Mos needed to go in with an army.  As I recall he was only one human being.  Bet it did not take too long before he knew that he could be hanging there with his hand in one pocket.

Jen I am with you.  I would hope that his previous reputation would prevail.  Maybe all he did was gather information on the low-life.  There is still a bit of hope.

Mere - I apologize, but I'm going to bring forward old information here................Maybe it's just me hoping Mos really is a good human being, maybe it's just hoping that he really was there trying to uncover the whole ball of wax - the original crimes and the corruption and collusion that covered them up.................but in looking over Mos' actions, it really gives me pause when doing so with that perspective.


MOS KNEW SERIOUS NEW EVIDENCE WAS NEEDED TO HAVE JURON REARRESTED
 
MOS: Depends on the case and depends how far you came in the past. You know that the evidence in murder cases could hang up to just one hair of a suspect. And that is just a very small piece of evidence, but it's very important. And what we gave to the judge is evidence, and it was enough to arrest these guys again after two years, after they had been freed by the court in Curacao. So the judge weighed this evidence. And of course, when you arrest a person two years later, after he's been freed, you have to have some serious stuff. And that's exactly what we handed over to the judge.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,313168,00.html


WHO WOULD YOU BELIEVE?
 
A GROUP OF TEN EXPERIENCED LAWYERS APPARENTLY BELIEVED
THERE WAS ENOUGH NEW EVIDENCE TO REQUEST JORAN'S REARREST
 
MOS: And this decision to re-arrest these three suspects was a decision taken by 10 lawyers, by 10 lawyers sitting around a table (INAUDIBLE) whole afternoon, being presented the new material.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,313168,00.html

 
A JUDGE IN THE NETHERLANDS APPARENTLY BELIEVED THERE WAS
ENOUGH NEW EVIDENCE THAT HE ORDERED JORAN REARRESTED AND
HELD FOR EIGHT DAYS
 
MOS: He was detained by an order of the judge on which he was arrested in the Netherlands. The judge first had to give this order and had to study the material first. Then he was arrested in the Netherlands for a period of eight days in custody. And this period of eight days now, just two hours ago was prolonged for another eight days, which will expire somewhere by the end of next week.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,313168,00.html

 
ALTHOUGH MOS HAD NOT FINISHED CONFRONTING THE SUSPECTS WITH
THE MATERIAL HE HAD AGAINST THEM, AN ARUBAN JUDGE ORDERED THEM RELEASED BECAUSE THE EVIDENCE WAS NOT STRONG ENOUGH TO CONTINUE HOLDING THEM
 
On Friday a judge ruled the evidence was not strong enough to continue holding the Kalpoes, and ordered them released. Aruba chief prosecutor Hans Mos called the decision a setback, but said the investigation will proceed.
"We had hoped for a longer period to confront these suspects with the material we have against them," he said. "We were not finished with that yet. But this is the way the law says it has to go."
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/30/world/main3559649.shtml

 
A week ago, Aruban Court of Instruction Judge Rick Smid also ruled there was not enough evidence to hold co-defendants Deepak Kalpoe, 24, and his brother Satish, 21.
http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20165014,00.html?xid=rss-fullcontentcnn


WHO WOULD YOU BELIEVE,

JUDGE RICK SMID OR 10 PROSECUTORS AND A JUDGE IN THE NETHERLANDS??



RICK SMID - ARUBA'S DIRTIEST JUDGE
http://nataleesfreebirds.blogspot.com/2007/07/rick-smid-arubas-dirtiest-judge.html

[jen3560]

10/29/2009 Awe Mainta Page 8

http://awemainta.com/home/

OK, it's early - and my papi has always been horrible.

Is this saying that this small child is already a seasoned criminal?

[texasmom]

10/29/2009 Awe Mainta Page 8

http://awemainta.com/home/

OK, it's early - and my papi has always been horrible.

Is this saying that this small child is already a seasoned criminal?

Good morning!   

Jen, my understanding of papi is not very good either.  But yes, that's what I understand.  From what I gathered the concern is that this boy so young, with the serious crimes he's already involved in will definitely be a future criminal if something's not done now.



Sad...

[jen3560]

10/29/2009 Awe Mainta Page 8

http://awemainta.com/home/

OK, it's early - and my papi has always been horrible.

Is this saying that this small child is already a seasoned criminal?

Good morning!   

Jen, my understanding of papi is not very good either.  But yes, that's what I understand.  From what I gathered the concern is that this boy so young, with the serious crimes he's already involved in will definitely be a future criminal if something's not done now.



Sad...

That IS sad!!!!!

I wonder what Aruba thinks now of the message they have sent to their youth?

By letting Joran and the Kalpoe brothers walk free - the message Aruba's youth received was "It's ok to commit crime here - you won't ever be punished for it".

 

[Blue Moon]

10/29/2009 Awe Mainta Page 8

http://awemainta.com/home/

OK, it's early - and my papi has always been horrible.

Is this saying that this small child is already a seasoned criminal?

this kid is going the same path as Joran.  Didn't he start young?  They don't know any other way.

I am still here for Natalee.  I don't post much but I read every day.  I want go away.

(I am on a genealogy research trip this week.  Posted in musings on my experience and I am still upset/mad about how
it has turned out).  BUT still reading here every day.

[Tamikosmom]

Apparently the family's attorney and the mother of the victim were for once in agreement with the suspects' attorneys and the judge ... there was not enough evidence to hold the three main suspects.

This is huge when you consider that Beth Holloway is no fan of Judge Smid.

I would sure like to know what were the real reasons behind the November, 2007 detentions by this new prosecutor from the Netherlands.

Janet

+++++

ACCORDING TO RONALD WIX

Dec. 20, 2007
Holloway Suspect Talked Online About Death
Aruba Prosecutor Says Cell Phone Calls And Text Messages Had Spurred Recent Re-Arrests

But Ronald Wix, an attorney for the Kalpoe brothers, denied that prosecutors had new evidence.

"All they did was recycle old evidence and claim it was new evidence," Wix told The Associated Press, adding that his clients felt vindicated by the prosecutor's decision to drop the case.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/12/20/world/main3636049.shtml


ACCORDING TO JOE TACOPINA

The Lineup - December 2, 2007

TACOPINA:  There's no new evidence, look we're here in December now, they accept their own deadline for December 31. I've seen the 14 pages, there's no new evidence and there's certainly no new incriminating evidence.


ACCORDING TO JOHN Q. KELLY

Holloway Attorney: 'Extraordinarily Painful'
Tuesday, December 04, 2007

JOHN Q. KELLY, HOLLOWAY ATTORNEY: Well, in their press release and even in conversations. I had a long discussion with him (Hans Mo) Thanksgiving morning after the arrests, and you know, he indicated that they were very confident, this new evidence they had, this incriminating evidence. And it turns out, quite frankly, that it is nothing new ...

VAN SUSTEREN: All right. So you can say with 100 percent certainly there's nothing new, right?

KELLY:  I can say it with 99 percent.  ... I think it was disappointing to me and actually extraordinarily painful and almost cruel for Beth and Dave after being down there.

They'd like to get some answers and they'd like to see some progress made.  And it's not fair to bring them down there with the false promises, with raised expectations, sort of a dog and pony show down there with no substance.

And it was — it just really took whatever spirit, almost, that Beth and Dave had left, went through that this weekend. It was really — it was terribly painful, for lack of a better expression.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,314966,00.html


Holloway Attorney: Pleas for Arrest Met With 'Deafening Silence'
Wednesday, December 03, 2008

Now the Holloway family lawyer John Q. Kelly wants action. In a letter to Aruban Chief Prosecutor Hans Mos, Kelly calls for the arrest of Joran van der Sloot. Joran's father Paulus and the Kalpoe brothers are also included ...

VAN SUSTEREN: It's your letter. What do you want from Hans Mos, and what have you heard from him?

KELLY: Nothing but deafening silence out of Aruba. No, I haven't heard from him.

The point of the letter was, and if you remember last year, Greta, with great fanfare and press releases, and, you know, just all kinds of dog and pony show, they arrested the Kalpoe brothers and Joran for absolutely no reason, no new evidence. Just picked them up and held them for a month.

And now they have new evidence. You have a damning confession by Joran as to serious criminal conduct he engaged in, implicates others. And they haven't done anything with it. And everything Joran has said is consistent with the facts as we know them right now.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,460908,00.html


ACCORDING TO BETH HOLLOWAY

The search for Natalee Holloway
By Chris Hansen Correspondent
NBC News
updated 5:20 p.m. PT, Fri., Feb. 22, 2008

The three main suspects, Joran van der Sloot, and brothers Deepak and Satish Kalpoe, were rearrested.

Dave Holloway broke his vow and rushed back to Aruba along with Beth for special meetings with prosecutors. They were asked to bring medical records.  To their horror, though, they say they ended up talking not about new evidence but were asked probing questions about Natalee’s character.

Beth Holloway: They kept saying that Natalee, you know, was a drug user … She's never had a history of drug use. She's never been in drug rehab. Yeah, I thought that -- then, they don't have anything. They don't have anything, you know?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/4/


The Dana Pretzer Show - December 21, 2007

According to Jug Twitty:

She (Beth) said that the prosecutor lied to them when he told them that there was new evidence.


The Lineup - December 2, 2007

Beth Holloway came in this morning about 9 o'clock, about 1/2 hour later than expected in a police station in the city Oranjestadt and after which she was put in a conversation with the prosecuting office, Hans Mos and Dop Kruimel After that was finished both the prosecutors left the office or left the police station and by surprise the interrogators came in and (inaudible) by Dolph Richardson the chief investigator, they started interrogating her which lasted for over 5 hours. She left not very happy and wouldn't say anything on camera. She left the police department about 2:30.

[Tamikosmom]

In my opinion the following quote is the granddaddy of all quotes that convinces me that Hans Mos is not a good guy ... he is a very bad guy.

Janet

+++++

THE FAMILY IS AT FAULT

Holloway Attorney: 'Extraordinarily Painful'
Tuesday, December 04, 2007

VAN SUSTEREN: Well, I sat with the prosecutor, and I actually thought he was a pretty smart guy until all this unfolded. But he told me that the reason the investigation had failed was because of two reasons. One is the family and bringing in the DA who happened to be there on the island at the time. And the other is the media. That's why he said that this has failed.

KELLY: You know, that's so sad because even now, as I speak, as I said, everything I might say based on conversations with him, you know, defense attorneys have had in their hands for 10 days now, two weeks. So it's nothing new being revealed here. And to — you know, he's the one holding press conferences. He's the one that sat down for the long interview with you before I ever spoke to you.

And you know, I'm sure he's a very smart guy, but he had no answers to any of the questions we asked when we were down there. It was kind of sad that even the first questions we started asking him, he had no answers to.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,314966,00.html

[jen3560]

Maybe someone can help me make sense of this.  It has bothered me since these two conversations took place - and I can't seem to make heads or tails of it. 

John Q Kelly obviously spoke with Hans Mos about the new evidence, and Mos told him precisely what it was.

Then after a visit to Aruba, John turns around and does something he had never done before - trashed Hans Mos thoroughly.

Why?

Here we have Hans Mos, 10 Prosecutors, a Judge in the Netherlands, and the FBI (see quote below) all knowing about this new evidence - and at least all but the FBI had personally seen it.

All agreed it was definitely grounds for re-detentions, and met the now much higher burden necessary for re-detainment.



Greta Van Susteren: "So it's physical evidence, something you can actually touch or feel

John Q Kelly: Or see. Sure.

Greta: or some scientific thing

John: Absolutely

http://youtube.com/watch?v=KzAAC0Mxcro
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=615.msg468972#msg468972
very last thing
 
 
-----------------
 
John Q. Kelly On the Record w/ Greta December 4, 2007

KELLY: Well, in their press release and even in conversations. I had a long discussion with him Thanksgiving morning after the arrests, and you know, he indicated that they were very confident, this new evidence they had, this incriminating evidence. And it turns out, quite frankly, that it is nothing new ...

VAN SUSTEREN: All right. So you can say with 100 percent certainly there's nothing new, right?

KELLY: I can say it with 99 percent.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,314966,00.html



So here is what does not make sense to me.  JQK had been told by Mos what the evidence was prior to that first conversation with Greta.

Then he comes back saying it was not new evidence, and roundly trashed Mos - something he had never done before.


So to me, there are a few possibilities of what happened....

1 - Mos lied to JQK, and there WAS NO new evidence which would have required
      a - 10 prosecutors collaborating to lie about new evidence and hope no one would notice
      b - paid off the Neth judge to get him to agree to the arrest
      c - lied to the FBI about new evidence
     
 
or
 
2 - The new evidence DOES exist, and JQK came back and told Greta what he did, because was playing along with Mos by showing outrage and disgust..........in order to help keep Mos' cover intact

or

3 - ???????????



http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20170898,00.html

December 10, 2007
Vol. 68
No. 24
 

The call caught Beth Holloway totally off guard. On the night before Thanksgiving, an FBI liaison phoned to inform her that on the strength of new evidence authorities in Aruba were rearresting the three young men—Joran van der Sloot, Deepak Kalpoe and his brother Satish—who have long been under suspicion in the disappearance of Holloway's daughter Natalee in May 2005.

[can]

Mos needed to go in with an army.  As I recall he was only one human being.  Bet it did not take too long before he knew that he could be hanging there with his hand in one pocket.

Jen I am with you.  I would hope that his previous reputation would prevail.  Maybe all he did was gather information on the low-life.  There is still a bit of hope.

Mere - I apologize, but I'm going to bring forward old information here................Maybe it's just me hoping Mos really is a good human being, maybe it's just hoping that he really was there trying to uncover the whole ball of wax - the original crimes and the corruption and collusion that covered them up.................but in looking over Mos' actions, it really gives me pause when doing so with that perspective.


MOS KNEW SERIOUS NEW EVIDENCE WAS NEEDED TO HAVE JURON REARRESTED
 
MOS: Depends on the case and depends how far you came in the past. You know that the evidence in murder cases could hang up to just one hair of a suspect. And that is just a very small piece of evidence, but it's very important. And what we gave to the judge is evidence, and it was enough to arrest these guys again after two years, after they had been freed by the court in Curacao. So the judge weighed this evidence. And of course, when you arrest a person two years later, after he's been freed, you have to have some serious stuff. And that's exactly what we handed over to the judge.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,313168,00.html


WHO WOULD YOU BELIEVE?
 
A GROUP OF TEN EXPERIENCED LAWYERS APPARENTLY BELIEVED
THERE WAS ENOUGH NEW EVIDENCE TO REQUEST JORAN'S REARREST
 
MOS: And this decision to re-arrest these three suspects was a decision taken by 10 lawyers, by 10 lawyers sitting around a table (INAUDIBLE) whole afternoon, being presented the new material.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,313168,00.html

 
A JUDGE IN THE NETHERLANDS APPARENTLY BELIEVED THERE WAS
ENOUGH NEW EVIDENCE THAT HE ORDERED JORAN REARRESTED AND
HELD FOR EIGHT DAYS
 
MOS: He was detained by an order of the judge on which he was arrested in the Netherlands. The judge first had to give this order and had to study the material first. Then he was arrested in the Netherlands for a period of eight days in custody. And this period of eight days now, just two hours ago was prolonged for another eight days, which will expire somewhere by the end of next week.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,313168,00.html

 
ALTHOUGH MOS HAD NOT FINISHED CONFRONTING THE SUSPECTS WITH
THE MATERIAL HE HAD AGAINST THEM, AN ARUBAN JUDGE ORDERED THEM RELEASED BECAUSE THE EVIDENCE WAS NOT STRONG ENOUGH TO CONTINUE HOLDING THEM
 
On Friday a judge ruled the evidence was not strong enough to continue holding the Kalpoes, and ordered them released. Aruba chief prosecutor Hans Mos called the decision a setback, but said the investigation will proceed.
"We had hoped for a longer period to confront these suspects with the material we have against them," he said. "We were not finished with that yet. But this is the way the law says it has to go."
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/30/world/main3559649.shtml

 
A week ago, Aruban Court of Instruction Judge Rick Smid also ruled there was not enough evidence to hold co-defendants Deepak Kalpoe, 24, and his brother Satish, 21.
http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20165014,00.html?xid=rss-fullcontentcnn


WHO WOULD YOU BELIEVE,

JUDGE RICK SMID OR 10 PROSECUTORS AND A JUDGE IN THE NETHERLANDS??



RICK SMID - ARUBA'S DIRTIEST JUDGE
http://nataleesfreebirds.blogspot.com/2007/07/rick-smid-arubas-dirtiest-judge.html

Jen,
Who would I believe?  Certainly NOT Rick Smid!!!
Jen, often times I have doubted that justice would prevail for Natalee.
Every now and then something comes up that gives me a little hope.
Thank you for all you bring to this forum. 
With hope,
can.

[2NJSons_Mom]

 

Natalee's Candles

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=5700.0

[jen3560]

Can - definitely not Rick Smid!!! 

Hope is a beautiful thing, and it's wonderful to feel it after all this time!


And Mere - I promise that last post was the end of me bringing old stuff forward for this!!!! 

[jen3560]

Natalee's Candles

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=5700.0

Thanks 2NJ - I have new reason for lighting a candle.

[jen3560]

Can - I know you don't know me very well, so this likely won't mean to you what it does to me.

It's not often that something touches me enough to make me to cry, but the way you worded your post did it.  "With Hope" just really struck me.

Thank you. 


NOW - I know I don't make the rules here, but where I used to post - making me cry was against the rules!  That would put a person in TIME OUT!   


 

[2NJSons_Mom]

Maybe someone can help me make sense of this.  It has bothered me since these two conversations took place - and I can't seem to make heads or tails of it. 

John Q Kelly obviously spoke with Hans Mos about the new evidence, and Mos told him precisely what it was.

Then after a visit to Aruba, John turns around and does something he had never done before - trashed Hans Mos thoroughly.

Why?

Here we have Hans Mos, 10 Prosecutors, a Judge in the Netherlands, and the FBI (see quote below) all knowing about this new evidence - and at least all but the FBI had personally seen it.

All agreed it was definitely grounds for re-detentions, and met the now much higher burden necessary for re-detainment.



Greta Van Susteren: "So it's physical evidence, something you can actually touch or feel

John Q Kelly: Or see. Sure.

Greta: or some scientific thing

John: Absolutely

http://youtube.com/watch?v=KzAAC0Mxcro
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=615.msg468972#msg468972
very last thing
 
 
-----------------
 
John Q. Kelly On the Record w/ Greta December 4, 2007

KELLY: Well, in their press release and even in conversations. I had a long discussion with him Thanksgiving morning after the arrests, and you know, he indicated that they were very confident, this new evidence they had, this incriminating evidence. And it turns out, quite frankly, that it is nothing new ...

VAN SUSTEREN: All right. So you can say with 100 percent certainly there's nothing new, right?

KELLY: I can say it with 99 percent.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,314966,00.html



So here is what does not make sense to me.  JQK had been told by Mos what the evidence was prior to that first conversation with Greta.

Then he comes back saying it was not new evidence, and roundly trashed Mos - something he had never done before.


So to me, there are a few possibilities of what happened....

1 - Mos lied to JQK, and there WAS NO new evidence which would have required
      a - 10 prosecutors collaborating to lie about new evidence and hope no one would notice
      b - paid off the Neth judge to get him to agree to the arrest
      c - lied to the FBI about new evidence
     
 
or
 
2 - The new evidence DOES exist, and JQK came back and told Greta what he did, because was playing along with Mos by showing outrage and disgust..........in order to help keep Mos' cover intact

or

3 - ???????????



http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20170898,00.html

December 10, 2007
Vol. 68
No. 24
 

The call caught Beth Holloway totally off guard. On the night before Thanksgiving, an FBI liaison phoned to inform her that on the strength of new evidence authorities in Aruba were rearresting the three young men—Joran van der Sloot, Deepak Kalpoe and his brother Satish—who have long been under suspicion in the disappearance of Holloway's daughter Natalee in May 2005.

Very well thought out, Jen.  I, personally, do not have an answer because I've certainly lost faith in Mos after that last arrest. 

On the other hand, I do not think Greta's/JQK's comments about his not having answers makes him a bad guy. 

Then, I think Greta called him a liar.   I just don't know what to think.

[2NJSons_Mom]

Don't JQK & Taco work for Fox in a legal commentary position? 

[jen3560]

2NJ - But that's precisely the question, isn't it?

Mos gathered the evidence, analyzed it with 10 other prosecutor's, it passed the sniff test of the judge in the Neth, and the arrest was made.

I can find no fault in those actions.....

THEN, Judge Smid threw it all out.  Again.  Before Mos even had a chance to finish going over it with the suspects.

So who really failed here? 

[jen3560]

Don't JQK & Taco work for Fox in a legal commentary position? 

Mmmmm.... I don't know.  I stopped watching Fox news.  Do they still appear?

[2NJSons_Mom]

Don't JQK & Taco work for Fox in a legal commentary position? 

Mmmmm.... I don't know.  I stopped watching Fox news.  Do they still appear?

    I stopped watching, too......I don't know if they still appear, but did wonder about that when I did watch. 

[2NJSons_Mom]

2NJ - But that's precisely the question, isn't it?

Mos gathered the evidence, analyzed it with 10 other prosecutor's, it passed the sniff test of the judge in the Neth, and the arrest was made.

I can find no fault in those actions.....

THEN, Judge Smid threw it all out.  Again.  Before Mos even had a chance to finish going over it with the suspects.

So who really failed here? 

You're making me think of Arlene and the 'you don't understand our legal system' topic.