Natalee Case Discussion #825 10/12/09 - 11/07/09

[Magnolia]

You are right .... it CAN'T be! My guess is that Arubans (and most likely the traitorous Silvetti) merely TOLD the Holloways that the items were tested and that NOTHING panned out! The other thought is that they sent items to the Netherlands BEFORE they sent samples to our FBI. Of course no one knows just exactly what "samples" were even tested anyways! 

Very true Wreck.Inquiring minds want to know,who specifically gave Robin that information.....

Wreck, ktf...
What Janet brought forward about Robin's comments and the date is definitely hinky...
I can only guess when Tim told Dave after the 29 Dec ROV pics that he was 99.9% sure they found Natalee....that there was a discussion of evidence recovery and analysis of evidence by (some agency-fbi-aruba ale-NL?).
Make me wonder if some samples were taken on the 30th dive and sent off for analysis to some agency...
And the 7 Jan aruba only diver collection of evidence completed the removal of any remaining evidence...
 

Wasn't Dateline still on the Persistence on the 30th?

[billb's daughter]

So basically they knew what they had on Dec 30th..

1.ALE/Trahan come up from dive.
2.Meet with Richardson/Silvetti.
3.Richardson/Silvetti work to get Tim Miller off the ship.
4.Set up clean-up dive for Jan 7th
5.Panter does final clean-up..

No more evidence.......Could be a possibility?????

When did kyle do the ROV image laying over Natalee and skirt?
I don't think we knew about it til some time later...but what if he showed that to john s, dolf, mos 29/30 dec?
Seems to me john s made his pact with the devil arubans no later than 30 Dec....

[billb's daughter]

You are right .... it CAN'T be! My guess is that Arubans (and most likely the traitorous Silvetti) merely TOLD the Holloways that the items were tested and that NOTHING panned out! The other thought is that they sent items to the Netherlands BEFORE they sent samples to our FBI. Of course no one knows just exactly what "samples" were even tested anyways! 

Very true Wreck.Inquiring minds want to know,who specifically gave Robin that information.....

Wreck, ktf...
What Janet brought forward about Robin's comments and the date is definitely hinky...
I can only guess when Tim told Dave after the 29 Dec ROV pics that he was 99.9% sure they found Natalee....that there was a discussion of evidence recovery and analysis of evidence by (some agency-fbi-aruba ale-NL?).
Make me wonder if some samples were taken on the 30th dive and sent off for analysis to some agency...
And the 7 Jan aruba only diver collection of evidence completed the removal of any remaining evidence...
 

The bottom line is that SOME kind of clothing material was found in that trap!!!!! What would clothing of ANY kind be in there (next to those hermit crabs    )?????????????

When you said about Drury being Dolph, I thought about the police officer's hat that some could see in the
trap with the bones.

Magnolia...I had forgotten about the hat....Does make me wonder though....dolf has always been able to stay behind the scene.....but it just comes back to him being in the thick of things the more we look...

[Keepthefaith]

So basically they knew what they had on Dec 30th..

1.ALE/Trahan come up from dive.
2.Meet with Richardson/Silvetti.
3.Richardson/Silvetti work to get Tim Miller off the ship.
4.Set up clean-up dive for Jan 7th
5.Panter does final clean-up..

No more evidence.......Could be a possibility?????

When did kyle do the ROV image laying over Natalee and skirt?
I don't think we knew about it til some time later...but what if he showed that to john s, dolf, mos 29/30 dec?
Seems to me john s made his pact with the devil arubans no later than 30 Dec....

I will have to go look for a timeline as unorganized as i am... They knew what they had on that first dive.They didn't need Kyle to lay it out for them but,i'm sure that had Silvetti very nervous!The Persistence is BIG enough for people to be meeting privately in a different area of the boat without others being privy to the conversation.No?

[Tamikosmom]

Dateline and Tim Miller left the Persistence on January 1, 2008.

Janet

++++++

Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman:  On the night of the 30th (I believe this was Tim's last night on the Persistence) I approached Tim and proposed some ideas to him. I suggested that we shouldn't take the Aruban Polis divers at their word and proceed with planning a recovery of the trap. Also, I proposed the trap site may not be pristine or the Polis may have already knew about it. This statement was backed up by several comments we heard, behavior we observed, and other things. Tim told me he thought I was right but didn't know what to do about it.

I hadn't slept in 48 hours. I crashed for a few hours rest and by the time I got up Dateline and Tim Miller had left the boat. That is when John [Silvetti] assumed full control over the remainder of the project and had us searching in the deepest portions of our search area which coincided with Richardson's remarks. Richardson told us after the Jan-7th dive to keep searching in deep water.

Kermit - scaredmonkey.net

[billb's daughter]

Lifesong...We NEED YOU..please come back to keep ktf and me organized with your time lines!
p.s.  - your making ktf look bad....

[Keepthefaith]

Lifesong...We NEED YOU..please come back to keep ktf and me organized with your time lines!
p.s.  - your making ktf look bad....

Bad,very bad..

[billb's daughter]

Dateline and Tim Miller left the Persistence on January 1, 2008.

Janet

++++++

Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman:  On the night of the 30th (I believe this was Tim's last night on the Persistence) I approached Tim and proposed some ideas to him. I suggested that we shouldn't take the Aruban Polis divers at their word and proceed with planning a recovery of the trap. Also, I proposed the trap site may not be pristine or the Polis may have already knew about it. This statement was backed up by several comments we heard, behavior we observed, and other things. Tim told me he thought I was right but didn't know what to do about it.

I hadn't slept in 48 hours. I crashed for a few hours rest and by the time I got up Dateline and Tim Miller had left the boat. That is when John [Silvetti] assumed full control over the remainder of the project and had us searching in the deepest portions of our search area which coincided with Richardson's remarks. Richardson told us after the Jan-7th dive to keep searching in deep water.

Kermit - scaredmonkey.net

Thanks Janet...
The onboard conversation between dolf-mos-john s. after the 7 Jan collection by aruba only divers...
dolf/mos----to john...
Ok, we cleaned out the cage.....now go map search the deeper quads we laid out - tell the crew a tip puts Natalee in those areas....when you get back in post, see paulass for your new business license....

[billb's daughter]

Dateline and Tim Miller left the Persistence on January 1, 2008.

Janet

++++++

Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman:  On the night of the 30th (I believe this was Tim's last night on the Persistence) I approached Tim and proposed some ideas to him. I suggested that we shouldn't take the Aruban Polis divers at their word and proceed with planning a recovery of the trap. Also, I proposed the trap site may not be pristine or the Polis may have already knew about it. This statement was backed up by several comments we heard, behavior we observed, and other things. Tim told me he thought I was right but didn't know what to do about it.

I hadn't slept in 48 hours. I crashed for a few hours rest and by the time I got up Dateline and Tim Miller had left the boat. That is when John [Silvetti] assumed full control over the remainder of the project and had us searching in the deepest portions of our search area which coincided with Richardson's remarks. Richardson told us after the Jan-7th dive to keep searching in deep water.

Kermit - scaredmonkey.net

Thanks Janet...
The onboard conversation between dolf-mos-john s. after the 7 Jan collection by aruba only divers...
dolf/mos----to john...
Ok, we cleaned out the cage.....now go map search the deeper quads we laid out - tell the crew a tip puts Natalee in those areas....when you get back in port, see paulass for your new business license....

self edit...

[Tamikosmom]

Keepthefaith and billb

Kyle Kingman did the measurements after the December 29th ROV dive.  Everybody was excited except John Silvetti.  This lead me to believe that something was up between John Silvetti and the Arubans prior to the trap every being located or following the sonar discovery on Christmas Day.  I do not believe that the clear images that emerged on the December 29th ROV dive was not anticipated.

Janet

+++++++

Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman:  Dateline (Tim Uelinger) had an agreement with Tim Miller to 'do a story to tell about and help promote TES and give TM recognition, and perhaps a 10 minute side-line story on Natalee along with 11 other missing persons. Dateline tagged along with TM for a while pre-NH search. They (TM and Dateline) came on the Persistence between 15-Dec and 30-Dec. I found the trap on 1:45am Christmas morning. I got the OK to begin our ROV dive series for the 29th, so I made it our first dive. We got visual of the fish trap and that it was suspicious. Basically, the fish trap door was open and there appeared to be a skull and torso-shape in sand on the door inside the trap Reviewing the 29-Dec video I noticed the torso shape in sand had a 90 degree angle and that the sand was supported from falling through the bottom of the trap, which was slightly excavated by currents. I proportioned out the distance from the top of the head, to shoulder, to that 90 degree angle and it was a match to Natalee's photo of her standing -head, to shoulder, to the end of her denim skirt. I showed TM the proportional match and the possibility of a skirt under the sand and he said he's going to tell the parents. I said definitely not until we sample the trap and get results. He made the call to Dave and Beth independently.

Kyle Kingman:  I took the proportions of the body form from the head, to shoulder, to a 90 degree angle which I believed to be the hem line of Natalee's skirt. I then took those proportions and matched them to the photo of Natalee with what she was last seen wearing. The proportions matched within an inch from head, to shoulder, to skirt line. Based on this comparison and with what we believed we saw in the Dec 29th video, Tim Miller contacted the family and told them the 99.9% comment. I told Tim not to do anything until we have forensic results back after the site is processed. Jan 7th we sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured. If it isn't her, it will forever haunt me as a major cosmic WTF.

Kyle Kingman: The "99.9%" came independantly from Tim Miller to Dave H. on Dec 29th, prior to the diver visual inspection of the trap. I can't imagine what that must have felt like to be told and then completely retracted the next day. I couldn't believe the information was prematurely leaked to the family before we knew what we were looking at. My heart broke for Dave and Beth.  Personally, I fed off of Tim's inflated confidence and my own on the night of Dec 29th. I did not sleep. Few of us did. The only person able to remain completely objective, much to his credit, was John Silvetti. In hindsight, I am in awe of him for his wisdom(from past hard experiences) and strength. At the time, I thought he was nuts for not siding with the rest of us after the first dive.

[Keepthefaith]

Dateline and Tim Miller left the Persistence on January 1, 2008.

Janet

++++++

Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman:  On the night of the 30th (I believe this was Tim's last night on the Persistence) I approached Tim and proposed some ideas to him. I suggested that we shouldn't take the Aruban Polis divers at their word and proceed with planning a recovery of the trap. Also, I proposed the trap site may not be pristine or the Polis may have already knew about it. This statement was backed up by several comments we heard, behavior we observed, and other things. Tim told me he thought I was right but didn't know what to do about it.

I hadn't slept in 48 hours. I crashed for a few hours rest and by the time I got up Dateline and Tim Miller had left the boat. That is when John [Silvetti] assumed full control over the remainder of the project and had us searching in the deepest portions of our search area which coincided with Richardson's remarks. Richardson told us after the Jan-7th dive to keep searching in deep water.

Kermit - scaredmonkey.net

Thanks Janet...
The onboard conversation between dolf-mos-john s. after the 7 Jan collection by aruba only divers...
dolf/mos----to john...
Ok, we cleaned out the cage.....now go map search the deeper quads we laid out - tell the crew a tip puts Natalee in those areas....when you get back in post, see paulass for your new business license....

Who spoke with Silvetti after the first dive to get Tim Miller & Dateline off the boat?

1.Trahan
2.ALE/Trahan
3ALE/Richardson

anyone?????

[wreck]

Dateline and Tim Miller left the Persistence on January 1, 2008.

Janet

++++++

Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman:  On the night of the 30th (I believe this was Tim's last night on the Persistence) I approached Tim and proposed some ideas to him. I suggested that we shouldn't take the Aruban Polis divers at their word and proceed with planning a recovery of the trap. Also, I proposed the trap site may not be pristine or the Polis may have already knew about it. This statement was backed up by several comments we heard, behavior we observed, and other things. Tim told me he thought I was right but didn't know what to do about it.

I hadn't slept in 48 hours. I crashed for a few hours rest and by the time I got up Dateline and Tim Miller had left the boat. That is when John [Silvetti] assumed full control over the remainder of the project and had us searching in the deepest portions of our search area which coincided with Richardson's remarks. Richardson told us after the Jan-7th dive to keep searching in deep water.

Kermit - scaredmonkey.net

Thanks Janet...
The onboard conversation between dolf-mos-john s. after the 7 Jan collection by aruba only divers...
dolf/mos----to john...
Ok, we cleaned out the cage.....now go map search the deeper quads we laid out - tell the crew a tip puts Natalee in those areas....when you get back in post, see paulass for your new business license....

Who spoke with Silvetti after the first dive to get Tim Miller & Dateline off the boat?

1.Trahan
2.ALE/Trahan
3ALE/Richardson

anyone?????

[wreck]

Dateline and Tim Miller left the Persistence on January 1, 2008.

Janet

++++++

Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman:  On the night of the 30th (I believe this was Tim's last night on the Persistence) I approached Tim and proposed some ideas to him. I suggested that we shouldn't take the Aruban Polis divers at their word and proceed with planning a recovery of the trap. Also, I proposed the trap site may not be pristine or the Polis may have already knew about it. This statement was backed up by several comments we heard, behavior we observed, and other things. Tim told me he thought I was right but didn't know what to do about it.

I hadn't slept in 48 hours. I crashed for a few hours rest and by the time I got up Dateline and Tim Miller had left the boat. That is when John [Silvetti] assumed full control over the remainder of the project and had us searching in the deepest portions of our search area which coincided with Richardson's remarks. Richardson told us after the Jan-7th dive to keep searching in deep water.

Kermit - scaredmonkey.net

Thanks Janet...
The onboard conversation between dolf-mos-john s. after the 7 Jan collection by aruba only divers...
dolf/mos----to john...
Ok, we cleaned out the cage.....now go map search the deeper quads we laid out - tell the crew a tip puts Natalee in those areas....when you get back in post, see paulass for your new business license....

Who spoke with Silvetti after the first dive to get Tim Miller & Dateline off the boat?

1.Trahan
2.ALE/Trahan
3ALE/Richardson

anyone?????

I meant to say  "Mos/ALE"

[Keepthefaith]

Dateline and Tim Miller left the Persistence on January 1, 2008.

Janet

++++++

Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman:  On the night of the 30th (I believe this was Tim's last night on the Persistence) I approached Tim and proposed some ideas to him. I suggested that we shouldn't take the Aruban Polis divers at their word and proceed with planning a recovery of the trap. Also, I proposed the trap site may not be pristine or the Polis may have already knew about it. This statement was backed up by several comments we heard, behavior we observed, and other things. Tim told me he thought I was right but didn't know what to do about it.

I hadn't slept in 48 hours. I crashed for a few hours rest and by the time I got up Dateline and Tim Miller had left the boat. That is when John [Silvetti] assumed full control over the remainder of the project and had us searching in the deepest portions of our search area which coincided with Richardson's remarks. Richardson told us after the Jan-7th dive to keep searching in deep water.

Kermit - scaredmonkey.net

Thanks Janet...
The onboard conversation between dolf-mos-john s. after the 7 Jan collection by aruba only divers...
dolf/mos----to john...
Ok, we cleaned out the cage.....now go map search the deeper quads we laid out - tell the crew a tip puts Natalee in those areas....when you get back in post, see paulass for your new business license....

Who spoke with Silvetti after the first dive to get Tim Miller & Dateline off the boat?

1.Trahan
2.ALE/Trahan
3ALE/Richardson

anyone?????

I meant to say  "Mos/ALE"

I was wondering if there was some type of brail emoticon you were using,cause i sure as hell couldn't see anything.........

[billb's daughter]

Keepthefaith and billb

Kyle Kingman did the measurements after the December 29th ROV dive.  Everybody was excited except John Silvetti.  This lead me to believe that something was up between John Silvetti and the Arubans prior to the trap every being located or following the sonar discovery on Christmas Day.  I do not believe that the clear images that emerged on the December 29th ROV dive was not anticipated.

Janet

+++++++

Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman:  Dateline (Tim Uelinger) had an agreement with Tim Miller to 'do a story to tell about and help promote TES and give TM recognition, and perhaps a 10 minute side-line story on Natalee along with 11 other missing persons. Dateline tagged along with TM for a while pre-NH search. They (TM and Dateline) came on the Persistence between 15-Dec and 30-Dec. I found the trap on 1:45am Christmas morning. I got the OK to begin our ROV dive series for the 29th, so I made it our first dive. We got visual of the fish trap and that it was suspicious. Basically, the fish trap door was open and there appeared to be a skull and torso-shape in sand on the door inside the trap Reviewing the 29-Dec video I noticed the torso shape in sand had a 90 degree angle and that the sand was supported from falling through the bottom of the trap, which was slightly excavated by currents. I proportioned out the distance from the top of the head, to shoulder, to that 90 degree angle and it was a match to Natalee's photo of her standing -head, to shoulder, to the end of her denim skirt. I showed TM the proportional match and the possibility of a skirt under the sand and he said he's going to tell the parents. I said definitely not until we sample the trap and get results. He made the call to Dave and Beth independently.

Kyle Kingman:  I took the proportions of the body form from the head, to shoulder, to a 90 degree angle which I believed to be the hem line of Natalee's skirt. I then took those proportions and matched them to the photo of Natalee with what she was last seen wearing. The proportions matched within an inch from head, to shoulder, to skirt line. Based on this comparison and with what we believed we saw in the Dec 29th video, Tim Miller contacted the family and told them the 99.9% comment. I told Tim not to do anything until we have forensic results back after the site is processed. Jan 7thwe sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured. If it isn't her, it will forever haunt me as a major cosmic WTF.

Kyle Kingman: The "99.9%" came independantly from Tim Miller to Dave H. on Dec 29th, prior to the diver visual inspection of the trap. I can't imagine what that must have felt like to be told and then completely retracted the next day. I couldn't believe the information was prematurely leaked to the family before we knew what we were looking at. My heart broke for Dave and Beth.  Personally, I fed off of Tim's inflated confidence and my own on the night of Dec 29th. I did not sleep. Few of us did. The only person able to remain completely objective, much to his credit, was John Silvetti. In hindsight, I am in awe of him for his wisdom(from past hard experiences) and strength. At the time, I thought he was nuts for not siding with the rest of us after the first dive.

Janet...a couple things stand out in kyle's own words above..
First: The 'we' in red above....
Appears to me that maybe persistence crew members WERE part of the sampling.....hmmm

[Tamikosmom]

billb

TIM MILLER - THE LIABILITY

Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman: I know Tim believed me and was convinced 100% which is why he went and told Dave that we found Natalee on Dec 29th. John stood back and waited and worked with the Aruban Polis to arrange the next dive -Dec 30th's which was the visual-only dive. John told me then he didn't want to hear me ever mention the trap again. Of course this didn't set well with me.

Kyle Kingman:  On the morning of the 30th we met on board the Persistence with Hans Mos, Richardson, and the rest of the police brass and dive division. I showed them all the 29th dive video and they agreed that it was very suspicion and looked promising. Later that day 30-Dec we conducted the dive with the Aruban divers along with our own Tim Trahan. We discussed ahead of time 1 thumb up means positively human remains, 2 thumbs up... something conclusively identifying Natalee. When Tim T. gives one thumb down, he said that it was inconclusive.

Kyle Kingman: Mr. Red shirt came on the Persistence along with Dolf, Mos, et al for the meeting on the 30th.

Kyle Kingman:   After the Dec 30th dive John [Silvetti] didn't want Tim Miller on board the Persistence because he said Tim wasn't necessary any more and was a liability. I don't know what that exactly means, but Tim wasn't hurting anything except releasing the statements to the press and Holloways that we found Natalee.

[Keepthefaith]

Keepthefaith and billb

Kyle Kingman did the measurements after the December 29th ROV dive.  Everybody was excited except John Silvetti.  This lead me to believe that something was up between John Silvetti and the Arubans prior to the trap every being located or following the sonar discovery on Christmas Day.  I do not believe that the clear images that emerged on the December 29th ROV dive was not anticipated.

Janet

+++++++

Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman:  Dateline (Tim Uelinger) had an agreement with Tim Miller to 'do a story to tell about and help promote TES and give TM recognition, and perhaps a 10 minute side-line story on Natalee along with 11 other missing persons. Dateline tagged along with TM for a while pre-NH search. They (TM and Dateline) came on the Persistence between 15-Dec and 30-Dec. I found the trap on 1:45am Christmas morning. I got the OK to begin our ROV dive series for the 29th, so I made it our first dive. We got visual of the fish trap and that it was suspicious. Basically, the fish trap door was open and there appeared to be a skull and torso-shape in sand on the door inside the trap Reviewing the 29-Dec video I noticed the torso shape in sand had a 90 degree angle and that the sand was supported from falling through the bottom of the trap, which was slightly excavated by currents. I proportioned out the distance from the top of the head, to shoulder, to that 90 degree angle and it was a match to Natalee's photo of her standing -head, to shoulder, to the end of her denim skirt. I showed TM the proportional match and the possibility of a skirt under the sand and he said he's going to tell the parents. I said definitely not until we sample the trap and get results. He made the call to Dave and Beth independently.

Kyle Kingman:  I took the proportions of the body form from the head, to shoulder, to a 90 degree angle which I believed to be the hem line of Natalee's skirt. I then took those proportions and matched them to the photo of Natalee with what she was last seen wearing. The proportions matched within an inch from head, to shoulder, to skirt line. Based on this comparison and with what we believed we saw in the Dec 29th video, Tim Miller contacted the family and told them the 99.9% comment. I told Tim not to do anything until we have forensic results back after the site is processed. Jan 7thwe sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured. If it isn't her, it will forever haunt me as a major cosmic WTF.

Kyle Kingman: The "99.9%" came independantly from Tim Miller to Dave H. on Dec 29th, prior to the diver visual inspection of the trap. I can't imagine what that must have felt like to be told and then completely retracted the next day. I couldn't believe the information was prematurely leaked to the family before we knew what we were looking at. My heart broke for Dave and Beth.  Personally, I fed off of Tim's inflated confidence and my own on the night of Dec 29th. I did not sleep. Few of us did. The only person able to remain completely objective, much to his credit, was John Silvetti. In hindsight, I am in awe of him for his wisdom(from past hard experiences) and strength. At the time, I thought he was nuts for not siding with the rest of us after the first dive.

Janet...a couple things stand out in kyle's own words above..
First: The 'we' in red above....
Appears to me that maybe persistence crew members WERE part of the sampling.....hmmm

we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured.



Don't know how much clearer it can get....

[billb's daughter]

Keepthefaith and billb

Kyle Kingman did the measurements after the December 29th ROV dive.  Everybody was excited except John Silvetti.  This lead me to believe that something was up between John Silvetti and the Arubans prior to the trap every being located or following the sonar discovery on Christmas Day.  I do not believe that the clear images that emerged on the December 29th ROV dive was not anticipated.

Janet

+++++++

Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman:  Dateline (Tim Uelinger) had an agreement with Tim Miller to 'do a story to tell about and help promote TES and give TM recognition, and perhaps a 10 minute side-line story on Natalee along with 11 other missing persons. Dateline tagged along with TM for a while pre-NH search. They (TM and Dateline) came on the Persistence between 15-Dec and 30-Dec. I found the trap on 1:45am Christmas morning. I got the OK to begin our ROV dive series for the 29th, so I made it our first dive. We got visual of the fish trap and that it was suspicious. Basically, the fish trap door was open and there appeared to be a skull and torso-shape in sand on the door inside the trap Reviewing the 29-Dec video I noticed the torso shape in sand had a 90 degree angle and that the sand was supported from falling through the bottom of the trap, which was slightly excavated by currents. I proportioned out the distance from the top of the head, to shoulder, to that 90 degree angle and it was a match to Natalee's photo of her standing -head, to shoulder, to the end of her denim skirt. I showed TM the proportional match and the possibility of a skirt under the sand and he said he's going to tell the parents. I said definitely not until we sample the trap and get results. He made the call to Dave and Beth independently.

Kyle Kingman:  I took the proportions of the body form from the head, to shoulder, to a 90 degree angle which I believed to be the hem line of Natalee's skirt. I then took those proportions and matched them to the photo of Natalee with what she was last seen wearing. The proportions matched within an inch from head, to shoulder, to skirt line. Based on this comparison and with what we believed we saw in the Dec 29th video, Tim Miller contacted the family and told them the 99.9% comment. I told Tim not to do anything until we have forensic results back after the site is processed. Jan 7thwe sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured. If it isn't her, it will forever haunt me as a major cosmic WTF.

Kyle Kingman: The "99.9%" came independantly from Tim Miller to Dave H. on Dec 29th, prior to the diver visual inspection of the trap. I can't imagine what that must have felt like to be told and then completely retracted the next day. I couldn't believe the information was prematurely leaked to the family before we knew what we were looking at. My heart broke for Dave and Beth.  Personally, I fed off of Tim's inflated confidence and my own on the night of Dec 29th. I did not sleep. Few of us did. The only person able to remain completely objective, much to his credit, was John Silvetti. In hindsight, I am in awe of him for his wisdom(from past hard experiences) and strength. At the time, I thought he was nuts for not siding with the rest of us after the first dive.

Janet...a couple things stand out in kyle's own words above..
First: The 'we' in red above....
Appears to me that maybe persistence crew members WERE part of the sampling self edit - 7 Jan dive.....hmmm

I also believe that at least john s had arranged with aruba prior to persistence arrival on site to map for oil while searching for Natalee... louis s was probably also aware...they both negotiated a fee with aruba for the mapping chart results...

The discovery of the cage (by independent contractors - kyle, with Tim M.) definitely turned the situation upside down...

[Keepthefaith]

billb

TIM MILLER - THE LIABILITY

Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman: I know Tim believed me and was convinced 100% which is why he went and told Dave that we found Natalee on Dec 29th. John stood back and waited and worked with the Aruban Polis to arrange the next dive -Dec 30th's which was the visual-only dive. John told me then he didn't want to hear me ever mention the trap again. Of course this didn't set well with me.

Kyle Kingman:  On the morning of the 30th we met on board the Persistence with Hans Mos, Richardson, and the rest of the police brass and dive division. I showed them all the 29th dive video and they agreed that it was very suspicion and looked promising. Later that day 30-Dec we conducted the dive with the Aruban divers along with our own Tim Trahan. We discussed ahead of time 1 thumb up means positively human remains, 2 thumbs up... something conclusively identifying Natalee. When Tim T. gives one thumb down, he said that it was inconclusive.

Kyle Kingman: Mr. Red shirt came on the Persistence along with Dolf, Mos, et al for the meeting on the 30th.

Kyle Kingman:   After the Dec 30th dive John [Silvetti] didn't want Tim Miller on board the Persistence because he said Tim wasn't necessary any more and was a liability. I don't know what that exactly means, but Tim wasn't hurting anything except releasing the statements to the press and Holloways that we found Natalee.

I wannna know,beyond a shadow of a doubt,who Mr Red Shirt is...This isn't Reservoir Dogs for pete's sake....

[billb's daughter]

Keepthefaith and billb

Kyle Kingman did the measurements after the December 29th ROV dive.  Everybody was excited except John Silvetti.  This lead me to believe that something was up between John Silvetti and the Arubans prior to the trap every being located or following the sonar discovery on Christmas Day.  I do not believe that the clear images that emerged on the December 29th ROV dive was not anticipated.

Janet

+++++++

Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman:  Dateline (Tim Uelinger) had an agreement with Tim Miller to 'do a story to tell about and help promote TES and give TM recognition, and perhaps a 10 minute side-line story on Natalee along with 11 other missing persons. Dateline tagged along with TM for a while pre-NH search. They (TM and Dateline) came on the Persistence between 15-Dec and 30-Dec. I found the trap on 1:45am Christmas morning. I got the OK to begin our ROV dive series for the 29th, so I made it our first dive. We got visual of the fish trap and that it was suspicious. Basically, the fish trap door was open and there appeared to be a skull and torso-shape in sand on the door inside the trap Reviewing the 29-Dec video I noticed the torso shape in sand had a 90 degree angle and that the sand was supported from falling through the bottom of the trap, which was slightly excavated by currents. I proportioned out the distance from the top of the head, to shoulder, to that 90 degree angle and it was a match to Natalee's photo of her standing -head, to shoulder, to the end of her denim skirt. I showed TM the proportional match and the possibility of a skirt under the sand and he said he's going to tell the parents. I said definitely not until we sample the trap and get results. He made the call to Dave and Beth independently.

Kyle Kingman:  I took the proportions of the body form from the head, to shoulder, to a 90 degree angle which I believed to be the hem line of Natalee's skirt. I then took those proportions and matched them to the photo of Natalee with what she was last seen wearing. The proportions matched within an inch from head, to shoulder, to skirt line. Based on this comparison and with what we believed we saw in the Dec 29th video, Tim Miller contacted the family and told them the 99.9% comment. I told Tim not to do anything until we have forensic results back after the site is processed. Jan 7thwe sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured. If it isn't her, it will forever haunt me as a major cosmic WTF.

Kyle Kingman: The "99.9%" came independantly from Tim Miller to Dave H. on Dec 29th, prior to the diver visual inspection of the trap. I can't imagine what that must have felt like to be told and then completely retracted the next day. I couldn't believe the information was prematurely leaked to the family before we knew what we were looking at. My heart broke for Dave and Beth.  Personally, I fed off of Tim's inflated confidence and my own on the night of Dec 29th. I did not sleep. Few of us did. The only person able to remain completely objective, much to his credit, was John Silvetti. In hindsight, I am in awe of him for his wisdom(from past hard experiences) and strength. At the time, I thought he was nuts for not siding with the rest of us after the first dive.

Janet...a couple things stand out in kyle's own words above..
First: The 'we' in red above....
Appears to me that maybe persistence crew members WERE part of the sampling.....hmmm

we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured.



Don't know how much clearer it can get....

I also think the 'we sampled" is also explosive....since kyle laid out that it was only aruban divers that collected the contents of the cage on  7 Jan...and kyle was pissed that no americans were part of the collection...