Kyron Horman, 7 years old PORTLAND, OR #33 10/07/10 - 10/17/10

[klaasend]

I received this via email from someone very familiar with the law in Oregon.  I don't personally claim to know anything about the laws in Oregon so keep that in mind if you have questions:

During a criminal investigation, the accused may have to reveal the source of funding for their defense, such as in the prosecution of Casey Anthony.  Generally, however, it's not a discoverable issue in most criminal cases.  During a dissolution of marriage case, ALL financials MUST be disclosed to the other party.  ALL of them.  Anyone who has ever divorced can attest to this simple fact.
 
I was not impressed with Bunch's pleading.  Anyone can cite cases; even Jose Baez has cited cases.  That doesn't mean the case cited actually stands for the point the person is trying to make.  Andrea Lyon cited cases that actually stood for the exact opposite of the point she was trying to make.  Anyone that believes that lawyers only cite cases that back up the point they're trying to make should go back and listen to the hearings in the Anthony case, particularly the hearing about taking the death penalty off the table.  Better yet, read the cases cited before assuming they're on point.
 
This is very important:  In his pleading, Bunch does not claim any case says that Terri shouldn't have to disclose the source of the funds.
 
The cases Bunch cites are about different matters, such as should Houze have to disgorge (give up) any of the monies already paid to him and defining what constitutes a marital asset.  Kaine's argument is that whatever source she used to obtain funds for Houze should fund her divorce attorney and negate her claims for suit money; and if Terri had some big windfall, the court should order her to pay his fees.  I don't think Kaine really cares about having his attorney fees paid by Terri -- he just wants to know where she got the money to pay Houze.  I can't speak to Oregon law, but in my jurisdiction, in fact I'll suggest in most jurisdictions, this would be a no-brainer.  In a dissolution case, ALL  financials MUST be disclosed.  Period. 
 
Think of it this way:  If it was reported that Kaine recently paid cash for brand new $350,000.00 car, would anyone dispute Terri's right to know where he got the money to buy it?  If a close friend of yours was getting divorced and their ex-spouse claimed to be unemployed, broke, but showed up to court in a $350,000.00 car, bragged to others they paid $350,000.00 for the car,  would you think your friend should legally be able to find out the source of funding for the new car? 
 
Or how about this:  What if Houze was on the East Coast to sell photos?  Aren't those photos marital property?  Even "her story" could be considered to be marital property because most of it happened during the marriage, so to speak.  That Mr. Bunch and Mr. Houze have unilaterally decided the source of the funds are neither a marital asset nor a gift means nothing to me and should mean nothing to the judge without hearing the other party's arguments to the contrary.  In order for Kaine and Ms. Rackner to take a position on the matter, Terri must first disclose the source of the funds.  Who knows?  Maybe they'll agree with Mr. Houze's and Mr. Bunch's assessment -- but I doubt it. 
 
Finally, getting back to the technicalities -- if the court finds that the $350,000.00 (or whatever amount) paid to Houze is a marital asset or that through this money Terri has the ability to pay suit money to Kaine, that does NOT mean that Houze would have to pay back some of the money; it does NOT mean that her right to counsel has been denied.  The court can issue an order for Terri to make monthly payments to Kaine; the court can use whatever amount it determines is due to Kaine as an offset to whatever assets it would have otherwise distributed to Terri.  There are a lot of remedies available to the court that do not include making Houze give up his retainer and causing Terri to be without the criminal attorney of her choice.  That was and is a false argument.  The source of the funding is at issue and if I were getting divorced, I wouldn't accept my ex's attorney's unilateral determination that I wasn't entitled to any part of that funding.  I'd want a judge to decide that.  Wouldn't everyone?
 
I could be wrong in my assessment of the issues -- but so could Bunch and Houze.  That's why these decisions are left to a judge, after hearing both sides of the issue.

[fatcatlurker]

I would like to add one more thing...

I bet Terri is sweating bullets right now with the continued searches on Sauvie Island.  The longer it takes to find Kyron's body the more evidence gets denigrated by the elements. 

Yes, I believe Kyron is dead and Terri is responsible.  Whether by her hands or someone elses hands, Terri is responsible.  MOO

ITA and thank you for bringing back into focus why we are here...KYRON.

I still would love to know where this case would be if the roles were reversed here.  I just have a hunch this case would of bearly made the news if we were looking at Kaine as the "De facto Suspect" in the same circumstances.  JMO.

I believe this case would have barely made the news if Kyron didn't go missing from a school, imo, it wouldn't of mattered if the stepmom or dad was suspect.

It doesn't surprise me at all where ever a child goes missing from.  They seem to go missing all the time and at all different places in their lives.

Yes I am surprised that this school does not have better security/safety measures in place and no one seems to remember much of that day at all including key players but if someone wants to disappear a child it can happen anywhere and at anytime.  JMO.

[klaasend]

O/T - North Carolina Amber Alert

I don't have a good feeling about this one 

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=8782.0

[Puzzler]

If we are looking at RS being the one who in fact did something to or with Kyron. Also the possibility that he was already being investigated for something else and this is bigger than Kyron. Maybe the bigger than could include the other two missing children and their mother.
What if they were the first to go and then Kyron after that. A situation like that would certainly be a little  harder to pull together as they would now be looking for four (4) missing not just one. Then again maybe it was RS but someone he and TH have been involved in and still again a total for four missing not just one.

Then we can move on to the question of what did Kyron hear. Was it RS warning TH about what he had done to the others and threatening TH also thereby Kyron making the statement that his SM was dead. So he had to be gotten rid of also.

Just throwing it out there.

Praying Kyron is found and they are able to get the evidence they are looking for to continue into the justice phase of this case.

JMO

LD1 - new and different thought...thanks...I hadn't thought of that one

[Puzzler]

O/T - North Carolina Amber Alert

I don't have a good feeling about this one 

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=8782.0

Oh, that's so sad, that little girl with all the problems she already has...I don't have a good feeling about it either.

[fatcatlurker]

re the MFH.  I had a neighbor who did that.  The guy who was asked to do the deed went to LE .  LE wired him and they got the goods on my neighbor.  Until that point, all it was was an interesting story to LE.  Same with TH.  No goods on her; consequently no arrest.

Of course Kaine wants to know where the $350,000 came from.  He said that she was spending money like water.  What if she was stashing money over the years and it in fact is partially his.  I would want my $175,000 back.  No, I would not want to gift it to her.

If Terri has done nothing, what's the big deal about incriminating herself?  Obviously, she has something that she has done that is incriminating and criminal.

IMO it's still a no win.  Terri got her abatement so she can continue hiding whatever it is that it is so important to her to hide and in the meantime Kyron is still missing.

IMO if Terri is sitting on valuable information about aka RS who I trust LE - she did have some kind of relationship with I'm sure they have proof of that much - than as far as I am concerned she is hindering the investigation in finding KYRON.  JMO.

Sorry...Yes I am still mad at her and it's my right to be.  She's put the suspicion on herself and cannot come clean on it....Sorry about her luck but in meantime a child is missing.

I agree with you 100% HelloKitty.  Why can she not come clean?  There is a reason for sure and I think Kyron deserves that much from the #@@#$!

[Claycat]

Sorry, Monkeys. I don't want to sound insensitive or anything, with Kyron still missing and the case resolution resting on Terri coming clean with what she knows.

But, the laws are the laws, and most times they seem to help the wrong person.

Itaryl Moose, I understand but it saddens me when a criminal has more rights than our precious children.

That's why they call it criminal justice.  It certainly seems to me they have more rights than the victim. 

I believe it should be handled differently when someone is missing.  I don't think anyone should be allowed to remain silent when someone is missing.

[mchenry]

Sorry, Monkeys. I don't want to sound insensitive or anything, with Kyron still missing and the case resolution resting on Terri coming clean with what she knows.

But, the laws are the laws, and most times they seem to help the wrong person.

Itaryl Moose, I understand but it saddens me when a criminal has more rights than our precious children.

That's why they call it criminal justice.  It certainly seems to me they have more rights than the victim. 

I believe it should be handled differently when someone is missing.  I don't think anyone should be allowed to remain silent when someone is missing.

ITA Claycat, especially when it is a small Innocent child.

[hellokitty]

 

Klaas, I so TOTALLY agree with you assessment of the money issue with TH and Bunch's lawyering.    Lawyers try all kinds of stuff.  some of it flies, some of it doesn't.

Thanks for the bold about MONEY in a divorce case.  TH's team is saying , "Trust us.  The money has nothing to do with you. "

I don't feel I need to say more. Klaas said it all.

[hellokitty]

re the MFH.  I had a neighbor who did that.  The guy who was asked to do the deed went to LE .  LE wired him and they got the goods on my neighbor.  Until that point, all it was was an interesting story to LE.  Same with TH.  No goods on her; consequently no arrest.

Of course Kaine wants to know where the $350,000 came from.  He said that she was spending money like water.  What if she was stashing money over the years and it in fact is partially his.  I would want my $175,000 back.  No, I would not want to gift it to her.

If Terri has done nothing, what's the big deal about incriminating herself?  Obviously, she has something that she has done that is incriminating and criminal.

with all due respect - where does it end?

Can they question her about events before she married Kaine, and any crimes that may have taken place then?

Can the government bring up a case that they suspected her of 10 years ago? but has no relevance to this issue?

There are safe guards in place for a reason.

- with all due respect -

 

With all due respect, there are safe guards in place already.  Sometimes at a trial a previous conviction of a similar crime cannot be considered.

That's what TH has a lawyer for; to keep them from asking about crimes that may be 10 years old as they may not pertain.  That type of thing.

[hellokitty]

 

I am curious why if the LS was involved in some kind of big crime ring as people are theorizing, he would be working at a job mowing lawns?

Certainly, crime pays better than mowing lawns.

[Itaryl Moosee]

I received this via email from someone very familiar with the law in Oregon.  I don't personally claim to know anything about the laws in Oregon so keep that in mind if you have questions:

During a criminal investigation, the accused may have to reveal the source of funding for their defense, such as in the prosecution of Casey Anthony.  Generally, however, it's not a discoverable issue in most criminal cases.  During a dissolution of marriage case, ALL financials MUST be disclosed to the other party.  ALL of them.  Anyone who has ever divorced can attest to this simple fact.

Agreed, however the Horman case is kinda special because it involves BOTH, the criminal case and the divorce.

Bunch is citing cases and pleading for his client, but it is up to the judge to decide if he accepts the arguments or not.

Apparently the judge understood that speaking about the matters related to the divorce can violate her Fifth amendment right.

Maybe since the money was paid to the attorney on Terri's behalf, and Terri actually didn't get the money, that it may be regarded differently. We'll see what the judge decides.

I am no lawyer, but I'm speaking based on past experience (regarding divorce.)

 

[Gypsy DD]

Klaas thank you for that insight from your legal eagle penpal.  That is exactly how I see it too.  When you divorce assets on both sides of the table have to be crystal clear.

[Rob]

I received this via email from someone very familiar with the law in Oregon.  I don't personally claim to know anything about the laws in Oregon so keep that in mind if you have questions:

During a criminal investigation, the accused may have to reveal the source of funding for their defense, such as in the prosecution of Casey Anthony.  Generally, however, it's not a discoverable issue in most criminal cases.  During a dissolution of marriage case, ALL financials MUST be disclosed to the other party.  ALL of them.  Anyone who has ever divorced can attest to this simple fact.

Agreed, however the Horman case is kinda special because it involves BOTH, the criminal case and the divorce.

Bunch is citing cases and pleading for his client, but it is up to the judge to decide if he accepts the arguments or not.

Apparently the judge understood that speaking about the matters related to the divorce can violate her Fifth amendment right.

Maybe since the money was paid to the attorney on Terri's behalf, and Terri actually didn't get the money, that it may be regarded differently. We'll see what the judge decides.

I am no lawyer, but I'm speaking based on past experience (regarding divorce.)

 

I agree with this ^

Kaine FILED for divorce, and at that moment his relationship with Terri seemed to have legally ended; as there will be no reconciliation. I understand the argument about martial assets, however, unless Klueless Kaine didn't notice a missing 350k (which by the way, Terri never said SHE paid - only he cost that much) I have hard time thinking he is somehow part of that capital.

For instance - what if this alleged 350k is a previous asset from before marriage, what if it came from her parents to help in her defense, what if it came from an anonymous donor in the form of a money order.

By the way - Houze disclosed where it came from to Kaine's attorney - and they're just not satisfied. Houze didn't need to do that. So, let's take it to the supreme court and make another issue out of not finding Kyron.

And some wonder why the focus is off of Kyron.

- j m o -

[nicubird]

I am curious why if the LS was involved in some kind of big crime ring as people are theorizing, he would be working at a job mowing lawns?

Certainly, crime pays better than mowing lawns.

An opportunity to clean up the money and make it look like it is the result of a legitimate enterprise?

[Rob]

I also had another thought. And it's one in a long running line of scenarios.

Let's say that RS - or whatever his name is - committed this crime. Yet Terri had no knowledge of his criminal behavior. At a later time suspected he was involved, or that his associates were involved.

In a sense, Terri unknowingly was associated with the possible perpetrator or associated with his associates.

6 degrees of separation, if you will. Perhaps she *thought* RS committed the crime and kept that to herself for fear of a criminal prosecution. If she was not a participation she has nothing to fear, except her own safety, and that of her family. Which could have motivated her silence. However, we are led to believe that she answered the questions regarding Kyron's whereabouts truthfully. So, it would seem that she did not possess information that she KNEW who committed the crimes.

I think abducting a child from a school is off the scale, and if I were RS, or any of his associates that's the last place I would pick to stage this crime. An abduction could occur almost anywhere and yet it happened at a school.

That, in a way, leads me to random opportunity. If you are an illegal alien you tend to want to fly under the radar. Then there is the converse issue of pinning Terri, and revenge.

[Shell]

I am curious why if the LS was involved in some kind of big crime ring as people are theorizing, he would be working at a job mowing lawns?

Certainly, crime pays better than mowing lawns.

An opportunity to clean up the money and make it look like it is the result of a legitimate enterprise?

My guess is that being here illegally, he is not paying taxes on that money . Therefore mowing lawns doesn't clean or make legitimate any criminal enterprise. That's the way I understand it.

[cw618]

rob

That, in a way, leads me to random opportunity. If you are an illegal alien you tend to want to fly under the radar. Then there is the converse issue of pinning Terri, and revenge.

random opportunity
yep been leaning that way, since we got more details about TH timeline
and the GK statement (he is not off my radar yet) the first thing i thought
when i saw the news and it was in a school, employ, then heard abut the
SF, then thought an unknown S.O. the school abduction was bold, its almost
seems to be saying, catch me if you can

 pinning Terri, and revenge
i dont think TH is the pinning type, now revenge, i think she could be that type
of person

[fatcatlurker]

I also had another thought. And it's one in a long running line of scenarios.

Let's say that RS - or whatever his name is - committed this crime. Yet Terri had no knowledge of his criminal behavior. At a later time suspected he was involved, or that his associates were involved.

In a sense, Terri unknowingly was associated with the possible perpetrator or associated with his associates.

6 degrees of separation, if you will. Perhaps she *thought* RS committed the crime and kept that to herself for fear of a criminal prosecution. If she was not a participation she has nothing to fear, except her own safety, and that of her family. Which could have motivated her silence. However, we are led to believe that she answered the questions regarding Kyron's whereabouts truthfully. So, it would seem that she did not possess information that she KNEW who committed the crimes.

I think abducting a child from a school is off the scale, and if I were RS, or any of his associates that's the last place I would pick to stage this crime. An abduction could occur almost anywhere and yet it happened at a school.

That, in a way, leads me to random opportunity. If you are an illegal alien you tend to want to fly under the radar. Then there is the converse issue of pinning Terri, and revenge.

I would agree about the school issue except in the case of a parent being the potential suspect.  And especially in this case for some reason.

Look around at the higher and higher numbers each day of the "No Body No Crime" cases being brought to court.   Mind blowing especially the number of children.

But what exactly is it that makes this case so different from any other?  We have started  to be more concerned about the collateral damage of individuals than the child and that alone is very disturbing to me.  This type of missing person case almost always drags those closest to the missing person thru the mud.  Sometimes it happens during an investigation.
 
Maybe I'm dense but I just don't see that this case should be an exception to the rule.  LE has not stated much of anything.  No need to when Kaine & Desiree & Terri could be the mouthpieces.  At this point I don't even know who RS is...I'm at the very beginning of a missing child case and that sucks.   

Obviously others feel differently and hey that's ok.  I wish LE would piss or get off the pot also but until they do it is what it is.  A Big Hot Mess with no focus which should be Kyron, IMO.

[fatcatlurker]

rob

That, in a way, leads me to random opportunity. If you are an illegal alien you tend to want to fly under the radar. Then there is the converse issue of pinning Terri, and revenge.

random opportunity
yep been leaning that way, since we got more details about TH timeline
and the GK statement (he is not off my radar yet) the first thing i thought
when i saw the news and it was in a school, employ, then heard abut the
SF, then thought an unknown S.O. the school abduction was bold, its almost
seems to be saying, catch me if you can

 pinning Terri, and revenge
i dont think TH is the pinning type, now revenge, i think she could be that type
of person

The GK is not off my radar either can't put my finger on it but it's there in his timeline for me also. 

I'm keeping up with you because who knows how this is going to end.  As long as we arrive at Kyron let's go!