Natalee Case Discussion #831 3/13/10 - 4/22/10

[Anna]

O/T Anna - be sure and check Musings for a new photo of Magnolia's pup Buck.  They are 5 1/2 weeks old already!

Oh, I can't wait.  I read about Peter R deVries giving her the slip!  Will check that right out now!

[Magnolia]

O/T Anna - be sure and check Musings for a new photo of Magnolia's pup Buck.  They are 5 1/2 weeks old already!

O/T again, but they are darling puppies.  Everybody that sees them laughs and giggles.
They are so fat and active and there are soooooo many.

[carpe noctem]

And anything found in Aruban waters has to be turned over, by law, to guess who?

Whether we like it or not. 

It's the law the same as it would be if found in our own waters.

Taken from that perspective, much as an agreement to share with the FBI beforehand would have been good, if that was not possible, what would be better?  Make the deal with Aruba or not search at all?

There are days when you need to use a stick... and days when you need to use a carrot.

I prefer a sledgehammer myself.

I would absolutely kill off 90,000 people just to find one Natalee Ann.

Maybe that's the reason I don't get asked to be put in charge much? 

I have a lot of team spirit though.

 


Tim's a big boy - he knows exactly what he's doing... and Natalee is at the heart of it.

Just like his daughter, who is his heart.

[texasmom]

And anything found in Aruban waters has to be turned over, by law, to guess who?

Whether we like it or not. 

It's the law the same as it would be if found in our own waters.

Taken from that perspective, much as an agreement to share with the FBI beforehand would have been good, if that was not possible, what would be better?  Make the deal with Aruba or not search at all?

There are days when you need to use a stick... and days when you need to use a carrot.

I prefer a sledgehammer myself.

I would absolutely kill off 90,000 people just to find one Natalee Ann.

Maybe that's the reason I don't get asked to be put in charge much? 

I have a lot of team spirit though.

 


Tim's a big boy - he knows exactly what he's doing... and Natalee is at the heart of it.

Just like his daughter, who is his heart.

 

[texasmom]

Truth & Justice for Natalee!

[Anna]

Carpe,

Remember when Tim Miller thought he had things all worked out with Dompig who was in charge at the time.  Tim left and made elaborate arrangements for some kind of diving sonor.  Not the Persistence, long before that and less sophisticated.  When he got back to Aruba with all that stuff, Dompig was in a snit.  All Dompig had to do was make one five minute phone call for permission to bring the equipment ashore and Dompig REFUSED to do it!  He was mad over something that had been said and did a 180 degree on Tim.

Since then, Tim has really been careful not to offend anybody in a position to help later.

And I don't speak for Beth but I can't imagine her other than glad TES has donations even the one for a stay in Aruba as I have never seen a mean streak in Beth about anything. 

Yes, you or I might behave differently but Tim Miller and Dave Holloway have to be diplomatic and political if they ever want to come back and search such a place as that swamp for example.  Tim  needs money for all his searches.  Not all goes to search for Natalee.  Horses have to eat every day. lol.


 

[msmarple]

First chance I've had to surf in a while. I've been admiring Magnolia's puppies.

And I'm late joining the Easter parade. Enjoy the lily!

I'm afraid I think the couple's photo showed rocks ...

Have a good weekend Monkeys!

[can]

No one can support a voluntary boycott of Aruba and say so in the media then turn around and ask Aruba for permission to search again and again.  TES was already refused at least once in the past on that basis.  If Tim Miller ever wants to be allowed to search in the future, he cannot do so while boycotting and neither can anybody else.

Just saying. . . .

 

[Tamikosmom]

And anything found in Aruban waters has to be turned over, by law, to guess who?

Whether we like it or not. 

It's the law the same as it would be if found in our own waters.

Taken from that perspective, much as an agreement to share with the FBI beforehand would have been good, if that was not possible, what would be better?  Make the deal with Aruba or not search at all?

When a "deal" was made with the Aruban enemy in the planning stages of the Persistence search ... a "deal" that did not include an invitation for an FBI presence during the recovery process of any find that appeared to be Natalee Holloway ... it was a given that a positive outcome in the name of justice for Natalee Holloway was not going to happen.

Those who upheld the Persistance undertaking prayfully and monetarily ... in hopes that Natalee Holloway's remains would be located and returned to her parents ... deserved so much more.

Janet

++++++


KYLE KINGMAN

Kyle Kingman: The FBI told me they could not send a representative down to us in Aruba unless they were specifically invited to do so by the Aruban authorities. They were simply uninvited.

Kyle Kingman:  The FBI said they needed an invitation. I brought it up to Mos and Richardson and they were talking as if it were a possibility along with a Dutch forensic team. Mos said it would take about 10-14 days to have a Dutch forensic team on site. Never heard another word about it.

Kyle Kingman: The Persistence had no divers on the 7th. Tim Trahan was our diver on the 30th-Dec, but he was out of the country at the time. The Aruban divers were on the police boat, dove from their boat, and returned to their boat.

Kyle Kingman: I get done in the survey room backing up the ROV dive and head to the back deck to talk to the Polis divers and see what they sampled and see the Polis boat way in the distance heading away fast. John doesn't seem concerned at all, but I am very dissapointed, concerned, and burning inside because I have a feeling that I/we will never know what they took from the trap. That evening I talked to John asking when we plan on recovering the trap. Previously this was part of the talks and plan, but this time he doesn't seem concerned about ever looking into the trap further. After John verbally BASHED me about the trap for what I said to Tim Miller about the sand body-form and that I believed her skirt was under the sand, John pretty much committed himself to the belief the trap wasn't what we were after. This shocked me because it was exactly what we were looking for- a fish trap lost at sea with human remains.


PRIVATE EYE

private eye
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #737 2/29 -
« Reply #559 on: March 01, 2008, 04:08:07 PM »

I hope that the Persistence has not done all of this work and gone to all of this expense only to have gotten itself into an arrangement whereby Aruban divers are the ones who actually verify the targets and are the first ones to physically retrieve evidence, with no American divers physically with them. If so, all I can say is I just can't believe this has happened. But surely I am wrong.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2662.msg358435#msg358435


private eye
Discussion #742 3/10 -
« Reply #686 on: March 13, 2008, 06:38:07 PM »

... But sharing information with people who work for people who are directly orchestrating the cover up, Rudy, or the Dutch, is the most irresponsible investigating I can imagine. What kills this investigation is people having to come into it, wanting to apply basic investigatory protocols into place, and then having those channels sabotage the new evidence that the new players discover. Of course, as is happened everytime in this case, the new people eventually come to a point where the manipulation of the evidence is undeniable, but by then the fruits of their work are gone, and there is simply another member of the believers of the cover up group. What I pray that Kyle and the crew of the Persistence will determine, is that regardless of how hard working the man that they are working with appears to work, his work belongs to Rudy, and Rudy belongs to the local dutch.

We are not hysterical, ignorant, paranoid people. We have seen the cover up in action, in broad daylight, with impunity, and if you disregard our warnings, you will become the next chump in a series of chumps, no matter how sophisticated your equipment, the level of your educational achievement, or the extent of your job skills and work history.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2689.msg364750#msg364750


private eye
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #746 4/4
« Reply #499 on: April 09, 2008, 12:39:50 AM »

If I understood Kyle correctly, and that would be that the Arubans retrieved and possessed all finds, not sharing anything with the crew, then that effort was a waste of time and effort. The only thing it could have accomplished was to locate additional evidence for the Arubans to destroy. I am not sure if that was the protocol out of Aruba's waters though. The effort was superb, but the game was fixed.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2769.msg372245;topicseen#msg372245


private eye
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #708 12/28
« Reply #897 on: December 30, 2007, 06:30:32 PM »  

They will have dateline onboard and I understand that they were involved in the Titantic so I assume they have the expertise to preserve any remains or artifacts and have a protocol. They can always find and locate it, call for assistance and then retrieve it. But that is my fear that they imediately turn it over to Aruba where her remains can become that of a large crab:)

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2481.880

[2NJSons_Mom]

 

Natalee's Candles

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=5700.0

[Edward]

At the time the DEA was fully aware of Luis.. so the agent helping us..well, sad.
The American consulate woman who supported Paulus over Beth.
The American business woman in Aruba Julia, who backstabbed Beth with words and disinformation.
The letter post marked in Arkansas...
Americans planting disinformation in forums as well as others..

There were many many corrupted Americans involved here.
To say handing stuff over to the F.B.I. would help is nonsense.
When Amy Bradley was located and turned over to the F.B.I. prior to Dr. Phil exposing the photos it took months for the F.B.I. to even go look at Hugo Chavez protected brothel on the island of Margarita.

I do not think I can trust Americans operating outside of the United States.

Now look at this missing American government worker on Curacao.. Nobody like the F.B.I. is even looking.

It is all corrupted.. Just like Aruba.

[Anna]

Janet, if that great wall of text was for my benefit, you should know I am fully aware of all those quotes.  Not one to be hung up on "archives" they represent to me what someone thought at that time and only at that time.

Be that as it may, no one has ever been in a position to dictate terms of searching to Aruba.  It's their territory and no one can override that.  They dictate the conditions under which searches can be conducted.

And I would not be surprised if they didn't stick to their part of the bargain.  In which case, what to do?  Arrest them?  Hahahahaha. 

Accuse them of not sticking to the terms agreed to beforehand and be told to get off their island and out of their water forever?  No, not too smart.

You do what Tim Miller does and has done in far more than just this case, you go along to get along to have access.

Everything is not black and white, right or wrong.  There are shades of gray and instances of making the best choice possible in the greater interest of being allowed to search at all. 

But in order to be allowed to search in Aruban waters, it would have to be by their terms only and if they show up one day and abscond with things, what can anybody do actually?  Alienate them so they have an excuse not to allow any further searching?  They would love that!

JMO.

[Anna]

Well, like everybody else, I am disappointed that the image in the photo seems to be rocks or coral. 

But didn't get my hopes up because have been there and done that too much in the past. 

At least it garnered come coverage for this tragedy and let people who may think it has long since been dealt with know that it hasn't and there has been no justice for Natalee.

Every time it comes up again like this, it's just one more reminder that even after multiple confessions, Joran van der Sloot remains on "free feet" and Aruba has not acted on this in any way.


What would I like to see happen?  I would like to see Joran arrested on the basis of his statements and held in contempt of court until he proves one of them.  Yes, indefinitely until he submits proof of one version of events or another that he has himself claimed happened.

[texasmom]

Natalee's Candles

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=5700.0

 

[texasmom]

24ora is reporting another death by poison.   

http://www.24ora.com/content/view/17584/8/



Papiamentu translation:

t.c is fayece some hour after of owing to drink poison

saturday, 27 march 2010 - 11:11

in oranan late of diabierna night famianan owing to arrive cu one cabayero at ehbo of inicial t.c., naci day 12 of september, 1961, that will have to owing to drink poison after of one discusion. according informacion alcohol also will owing to play one rol. the person here owing to stay interna, but for more or less 4’or y mey of morning dr. dennert is constata dead. click read more for more info. saturday morning the family completo incluyendo his yuinan was much break for her news here. one of the yuinan is lamenta thing the father owing to make but of another near is remarca cu the was one good father for they y majority of time was a jolly cu like juda. also the child is conseha all family for love they father much, mirando cu today the can tey y tomorrow not.

[texasmom]

24ora is reporting another death by poison.   

http://www.24ora.com/content/view/17584/8/



Papiamentu translation:

t.c is fayece some hour after of owing to drink poison

saturday, 27 march 2010 - 11:11

in oranan late of diabierna night famianan owing to arrive cu one cabayero at ehbo of inicial t.c., naci day 12 of september, 1961, that will have to owing to drink poison after of one discusion. according informacion alcohol also will owing to play one rol. the person here owing to stay interna, but for more or less 4’or y mey of morning dr. dennert is constata dead. click read more for more info. saturday morning the family completo incluyendo his yuinan was much break for her news here. one of the yuinan is lamenta thing the father owing to make but of another near is remarca cu the was one good father for they y majority of time was a jolly cu like juda. also the child is conseha all family for love they father much, mirando cu today the can tey y tomorrow not.

http://www.boletinextra.com/index.php/component/content/article/31-local/813-homber-ta-bebe-veneno-pa-mata-y-ta-fayece

Papiamentu translation:

man is drink poison for kill y is fayece

saturday, 27 march 2010 10:34

written by news updater 0 comments

tocante the caso of the supuesto venenamento/ suicidio at paradera can tell cu niun informacion not owing to wordo happen via of autoridad (polis/om). now ey police owing to achieve confirmacion of vocero of hospital cu berdad one person owing to arrive poli 26.03.2010 for 22.00 hour cu family where they owing to tell personal of poli cu the person was bow influencia of alcohol y owing to drink poison for kill (weed killer). the person owing to wordo opgenomen at hospital y for more or less 04:30 past owing to fayece. dr. dennert will is the behandelende arts y the self owing to constata dead. now here police owing to end of happen the informacuion over for central of police cu will happen this over for om for look at if have to come one investigacion if or not. the victima will is he t.c. nasi at aruba day 12.9.1961 y live at paradera. till so far the info cu bulletin extra is dispone of dje. upstairs black berry ping owing to circula full one another storia, where is tell cu this owing to sosode today morning cu one wing of another cos. sinembargo is this is the informacion oficial y corecto cu we can owing to achieve pabo. come across

[wreck]

If we'd known that "weed killer" was going to work --- we could have crop dusted the whole damn rock of an island! 

[Magnolia]

If we'd known that "weed killer" was going to work --- we could have crop dusted the whole damn rock of an island! 

     

[klaasend]

St Pat's - Sr. Frogs - DJ Diablo



St Pat's - Sr. Frogs - could it be??

Now I see what Johan555's problem is, it's reading comprehension.  He thinks my words "could it be?" means that I was stating 100% that it was Joran.  I'm glad that he found it entertaining 

[Tamikosmom]

Edward
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #792 1/9/09 -
« Reply #268 on: January 10, 2009, 10:18:58 AM »

1.Not one girl in this world has made claim against any of the boys mentioned in this case..

<snipped>

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4363.msg620947;topicseen#msg620947

++++++++


Edward

You and Joran van der Sloot are one in regards to your above claim.  However ... there are sources that state otherwise.

Janet
_________

I AM INCLINED TO BELIEVE HIM: GRETA VAN SUSTEREN

On the Record w/ Greta - March 6, 2006

GRETA VAN SUSTEREN: Have you ever been accused by a girl ...

JORAN VAN DER SLOOT: Never. Never.

VAN SUSTEREN: ... or something — never?

VAN DER SLOOT: I mean, you can talk to any girl I've ever been with, and they can say I always treated them in the right way. I mean, I never laid a finger on a girl without her wanting to. I've never done anything like that before ever with any girl.
 
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,186880,00.html


CONTRADICTIONS

Hannity & Colmes - April 11, 2006
 
BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY'S MOTHER: Well, those young girls... Those are the girls, who came forward this summer...I believe they came forward in August, and were giving statements to the police as to what Joran had done to them. And from what I am reading in the same papers that you are, that these young girls, obviously, will feel more comfortable coming forward in New York. I mean, they were really pressured by several different people and officials on the Island of Aruba to retract their statements. And it was difficult enough for them to come forward as it was.
 
 
'The Abrams Report' - February 24, 2006
 
BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY'S MOTHER: There were two—I know of two young girls. One was 16 and one was 14 years of age, and it was difficult for these girls to do, but they did come forward. They had to hire an attorney. They gave statements to the police. You know, these were real girls that were coming forward.  We don't know what happened or what transpired, why that never went any further than it did. We don't know if it had something to do with—I was told that Dennis Jacobs (ph) had strongly—had talked to the girls and was really putting the pressure on them to retract this, so you know, we just don't know how far that some individuals in that police department were going to go to put a stop to those girls coming forward. But they were real girls and they had been assaulted by Joran under the influence of drugs.
 
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11590518/
 

Diario - August 23, 2005

More Alleged Victims Come Forward against Joran

ORANJESTAD (AAN) — There is a girl of 17 years old who apparently will press charges against Joran to the authorities for rape. According to this information that reached our editorial desks, apparently there are 3 girls who want to press charges, but that two of them have not yet decided, but that the other does have the intention of pressing charges soon.

Translation - Aruba Girl
 
http://scaredmonkeys.com/2005/08/23/diario-more-alleged-victims-come-forward-against-joran/
 
 
'Scarborough Country' - Aurgust 22, 2005

MICHELLE KOSINSKI, NBC CORRESPONDENT: … Well, now this private investigator who has been working on this island for weeks says that he has tracked down one of these young ladies through her attorney. And her attorney says that this young woman claims - and she‘s 17 years old—that she was drugged and that she had unwanted sexual contact of some kind with Joran Van Der Sloot. Furthermore, she claims through her attorney that two of her classmates had a similar experience. And the private investigator sat down with his attorney, talked to her at length about this 17-year-old girl. And he says that she is now willing to go to prosecutors and try to press charges against Van Der Sloot.
 
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9051533/
 
 
Summons and Complaint
Elizabeth Ann Twitty and Dave Edward Holloway
vs. Joran van der Sloot and Paulus van der Sloot

12. On at least three occasions prior to May 2005, young Aruban women alleged that they were victims of “date rape” perpetrated by Joran and his accomplices.
 
http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/hway/hwayvds21606cmp5.html


Summons and Complaint
Elizabeth Ann Twitty and Dave Edward Holloway
vs. Joran van der Sloot and Paulus van der Sloot

81. Defendant Paulus van der Sloot knew his minor child, Joran van der Sloot, had a long history of sexual assaults on young women.

http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/hway/hwayvds21606cmp15.html
 
 
On the Record w/Greta - August 30, 2005
 
GRETA VAN SUSTEREN, HOST: Tito, last night we had on the new lawyer for Natalee Holloway's family, who said that a young woman came to her office and said that she had been sexually assaulted by Joran. Are there other women or young women who have come forward? I mean, there seems to be a lot of people are talking a lot about it, but do you know specifically if this is fact?

TITO LACLE, ARUBA TODAY: This is fact, Greta. The lawyer for Joran van der Sloot did confirm yesterday that not one but several people had been interrogated, or he confirmed my story that I heard from my sources, and he confirmed that many people had come forward. He did not give a specific number. He did mention the States and Aruba, that this has happened, and based on that information, that they put this accusation on Joran van der Sloot yesterday.

VAN SUSTEREN: So there are women here in the United States who are also making that allegation against Joran?

LACLE: That is what we were told, Greta.
 
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,167372,00.html
 
 
FOX News - September 01, 2005

Aruba Suspects Accused of Taking Sex Photos of Another Girl

The Kalpoe brothers were released July 4 and rearrested last week with a friend of the three young men, Freddy Alexander Zedan-Arambatzis (search), 21.

Zedan-Arambatzis, who is not suspected of involvement in the Holloway case, is accused of taking photos of a minor female in "tempting poses" and of showing the photos to other people, said his lawyer, Diana Emerencia. He is also suspected of having unspecified "physical contact" with the girl, she said.

The Kalpoe brothers and van der Sloot are also suspected of involvement in the incident, which allegedly occurred before Holloway disappeared, Emerencia said.
 
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,168233,00.html

 
'Scarborough Country' - August 26, 2005

LISA DANIELS, GUEST HOST: It definitely smells that way. You know, if you take the prosecution‘s statement at its face, we are talking on a whole new level, the charges here. We are talking about drugs. We are talking about rape and we are talking about rape of many different people. There are four guys now in custody, four best friends. What does that tell you?

JOSSY MANSUR, EDITOR, “DIARIO”: Well, what it tells me is that, really, these four guys are friends. They belong to the same group, these party boys that go out and prey on young, unsuspected girls or other kinds of girls also that are out to have a good time, not suspecting what they‘re in for with these predators around. And they are—they not only appear in photographs together, but I understand that Freddy lives very near to the Joran house. So, there is a bond between them. There is a group that they call themselves the pimps, in which all of these participate.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9119491/


Helen Lejuez - Aruban Family Attorney

Affidavid of C. Helen Lejuez

<snipped>

5. ... Miss Doe told me that she was coming forward at that time because she had had an experience that might be similar to Natalee's experience.

6. Miss Doe informed me that, one evening during early in 2005, she met Joran van der Sloot at Carlos'n Charlie's nightclub in Aruba.

7. Miss Doe told me that, over the course of the night, Joran van der Sloot gave her several alcoholic beverages. Miss Doe further stated that she believes that Joran van der Sloot placed some kind of narcotic substance in one of her drinks. The reason she believes she was drugged is that her level of intoxication was greatly disportionate to the amount of alcohol that she consumed.

8. Later that night, according to Miss Doe, Joran Van der Sloot brought Miss Doe back to his apartment, adjacent to his parent's house.

9. Miss Doe then told me that she was sexually assaulted by Joran van der Sloot as she faded in and out of conciousness, At no time did Miss Doe consent to any sexual contact with Joran van der Sloot.

10. Miss Doe advised me that, shortly after she was sexually assaulted by Joran van der Sloot, she learned that two other young women, ages 16 and 17, suffered attacks by Joran van der Sloot under similar circumstances.
 
11. Miss Doe told me that, in the aftermath of Joran van der Sloot's attack on Miss Doe, she was threatened and intimidated by Joran van der Sloot, his friends and others. She had been terrified to come forward and tell her story in Aruba.