Scared Monkeys Discussion Forum

What a cool picture!  Don't think I've seen that one before. 

Yay! Made it!!

i was off chasing the emails down,this is all i could find so far

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20442218,00.html

with video from the todays show

Kyron Horman's Mom: Stepmom 'Could Have Hurt Him'
By Stephen M. Silverman

Monday November 15, 2010 11:00 AM EST

The mother of Kyron Horman, the 8-year-old Oregon boy missing since June, has once again pointed a finger at his stepmom, whom she believes "could have hurt him in the worst possible way," Desiree Young said on Monday's Today show.

Young cited e-mails and text messages sent by stepmom Terri Moulton Horman, expressing hatred for Kyron, and said she remains convinced that Terri was involved in the child's disappearance and is withholding information.

"It's very clear from Terri's horrible words that she had a severe hatred for Kyron," said a highly emotional Young, adding that police shared Terri Horman's messages with her on Friday.

Police have not named a suspect in the case, or even identified any persons of interest.

As for why her ex-husband Kaine Horman – who is presently divorcing Terri Horman – was not at her side for the TV interview, Young replied: "We are still a united front in the goal that we want Kyron home. We want answers. That hasn't changed."

But, she continued, without being specific, "I personally have learned of information lately that has disappointed me in Kaine's choices in his behavior. I just can't stand by and support the choices he is making."

I do believe Desiree is at the anger stage.  I hope it gives her more strength for what may come.

regarding those emails and other info has shared with KH and DY
does anyone know for sure what LE can share with the victim, or the public for
that matter, was wondering if it was a back door on the sunshine law

like, we/LE cant give to the public,but can give it to the victim, and the victim can
do what they like with the info

Monkey King I took this from a posting of yours from the previous thread. You said,

"Remember the letter someone left at the Wall of Hope?  When Kaine stated in the media that the house was "safe", it was just Kaine and Kiara at the house, I believe he was speaking directly to the writer of that note.

Kaine was the focus of that letter.  Desiree was not mentioned, neither was Terri."


This was an interesting point. Can you post that note again?

I am not sure she has a choice but to be in the anger stage. In her place, I would be so absolutely livid with my ex as I am sure most of us would be.

not MK but here ya go and a rush look up for a link to it
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/5823174/handwriting_analysis_letter_to_kaine.html

Thanks for posting the note! I just found this on the note, thought it was interesting.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/5823174/handwriting_analysis_letter_to_kaine.html?cat=34

I saw the letter that was posted on Webslueths to Kaine. I do handwriting analysis. It came from a guy. Printed, so someone is hiding and may do lots of forms, work in an office, school; at some time be in the military.
 It has a pronounced d in it and so someone was trained to write the d a formal way. Kyron did NOT write it. It would not be addressed "To" daddy. It would say Daddy. This is a trick letter.

The writer seems to be right handed, but writes sometimes straight up. This indicates that there is a mother tie or a closenss with mother. Yet he makes no mention of Kyron's mother.

The person is strong, especially with his hands. He writes musical notes. You can see the d looks like a musical notes. He plays an instrument or reads and writes music. He has limited education. Thinks he is something more than he is and has an inflated ego as the letters go up on a slant. Someone seems to have knowledge that Kyron is no longer with us or displaced. He does have knowledge about the case. He sympathizes with Kaine (also proof that he is a man) wants to ease his pain that Kyron is safe, but lying because Kyron is missing. His father and his relationship with his father are coming into play here. He had a separation from his own father for a while it seems. There are mixed and guilt feelings here. He is watching the wall. "Pop" seems to be a buzzword somehow and may know that Kyron called him pop. This is an old word from the 50's, 60's and 70's, so that era means something to this person. Kyron and probably Kaine know the writer. He knows about "pain" and throws in "she can no longer hurt me". This person seems to have spoken with Kyron and may be the person responsible for his disappearance. Often these people are closer to the case than others realize. They stay on top of everything.

How did the writer know "she" was hurting him? Was this inside information, from Kyron? Was he watching at school?

This person is not noticed, so may be an employee of the school. Someone trusted.

How did the writer know Kyron was in any pain?

hmm not sure about everything but when I first read the letter I felt it is from a man who is in his 40's or 50's. I feel he is siding with Kaine and may have an slant towards him and does not like or respect woman that much.
 
This note crossed my mind the other day when it came out Terri had email somebody about her not liking Kyron. My first thought was could she have written or told someone who was unstable themselves and they felt Kyron was in danger from Terri?

Honestly all that aside.  They need to be mad.  If they want this to go anywhere they need to use that anger to find Kyron.  Divided or United as long as they remain focused on Kyron they will hopefully get what they need.  JMO.

Weird, I had never seen the analysis, but Dave Stensen popped in my mind as the description of who could have written it... ::MonkeyEek::

BTW there are more pages beyond what I posted. It is actually pretty interesting.

One of the ladies on one of the psychic forums said that she had written the letter and put it on the wall.  If I recall, she just wrote what she thought Kyron would say in a note to his dad.  I do not recall which forum it was though :(

TG never seen that one before.  Thanks.  I had a fleeting thought in the beginning that it could of been someone grooming Kyron.  Someone close.

And the groundskeeper or someone like him has always come to mind.

Well geez  ::MonkeyEek::   Any way the analyzing of the note was interesting.

I started to follow this one day but got distracted and couldn't finish.  If I recall a whole bunch of her fellow posters or posters at the site I was reading at got really irate with her.  Did she confess to it?  Got a link?

I'll see if I can find it fatcat...At the moment I don't remember which one it was

I'll keep that in mind about the poster claiming fame to the letter. Do you know if she is a local to the area? Also, did she have other postings on the forum or had been a member for a while? Was LE informed she claims she wrote it so they could question her?

I think it is possible a person wrote this because they feel Kyron is gone and they want to make Kaine feel better. Although I do have to say it is obvioulsy addressed to Kaine and not his mother. I also believe it possible it is a person that took Kyron to justify their actions by now claiming their acts saved him, or they took Kyron to save him from a fate they had been told or heard about, directly or indirectly.
A few people come to mind actually. I will keep that to myself though, for now.

Wouldn't be the first time a perp did something to insert themselves in a case, several come to mind. Could be just somebody who wanted attention, could be a total crackpot.

Is this what you are talking about?

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1170793/pg212

Re: Kyron Horman Case - Latest News - Quote

[link to www.kptv.com]


[link to www.psychiccrimefighter.com]

Rosebud
Location: United States
Registered: July 11, 2010
Posts: 400

October 5, 2:35 pm #6831
Still people posting about that handwriting article and the letter left on the wall. It was written by a psychic on this forum. If the author will please stand up that would be great so we can all move on from that. Not my place to shine a spotlight.


Rosebud
Location: United States
Registered: July 11, 2010
Posts: 400
October 5, 2:59 pm #6834

The note was not written by a man. LOL. It was written by a psychic on this forum and was witnessed being written and put on the Wall of Hope by another member of this forum. Nuff said.



treasure trove
Location: United States
Registered: July 30, 2010
Posts: 65
October 5, 3:19 pm #6841

I can vouch for Rosebud's comment as I was at the Wall when the note was written too. The note-writer's intent was taken out of context and blown out of proportion. I hope the author will clear the air so this subject can once and for all be a thing of the past.
==========================================================​==
To whomever wrote this note,it was done in poor taste!! Did you for once consider the Kyrons Parents when you wrote this!! You should be ashamed of yourselves!!
This makes me sick!!!!

Thank you TG!

Thanks  ::MonkeyNoNo::  All kinds out there  ::MonkeyEek::

Why did I hear about that forum? GodLikeproductions? Sounds familiar

a poster says they read something /or someone that used the special k name
about mid pg Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 1:27 pm   
http://tinyurl.com/23k625n
and they thought they read it somewhere on here
http://tinyurl.com/2d6qjcf

So apparently a group from that forum or a group of psychics went to the wall together? Is this it the same forum as InSessions? Sorry I don't read at either forum so I don't know. 

I think Special K was a nick name that Desiree first said? I recall an interview and that name was mentioned. Also, I recall her or Kaine saying that Kyron had different names for people, like Kaine was daddy, tony dad, and one of the grandfathers he called Pop.

 

i think you guys got it, what a crazy thing to do, there is a rosebud here
http://tinyurl.com/2d6qjcf

one of those psychic,went looking at the tressel and took 6 pics

first 6 pics
http://tinyurl.com/29lnfl2

map of pics area
http://tinyurl.com/287up9c

The site/forum DeDe's "cousin" Jonser write on!???

 ::rhino::

Oh that's right. I couldn't quiet remember. Thanks!
So it appears the letter was written by a psychic woman who was searching in that area for Kyron. I can't seem to find the post she admits doing this but it is being claimed to have happened by other posters who claim they had seen this person do this. I would suppose for now it would seem the letter is debunked as not being from a person who took Kyron or knows where he is although I have no reason to believe or not believe the person claiming this as I don't have any connection with that person.

I do have a question though. Rosebud from GodLikeProductions was searching with Harry Oaks? Is anyone familiar with Rosebud? Just curious.

 ::HelloKitty::

It's interesting because on Godlike productions, someone said that they ran the cousin's posts through Gender Genie and they came out that Jonesr is a female.

I have done it myself several times and get the same results-female. 

You need at least 500 words.  Not that hard to get out of Jonesr.

Yes, I remember that. I used it on me several times and it said I was male each time.

I am NOT male.

I think Gender Genie is more for entertainment than anything else. It certainly is not very accurate. ;-)

I never heard of Gender Genie.

This snippet from the Today Show website makes me think that not only did Desiree see these emails, but also that it is more than just her opinion or impression that TH had hatred for Kyron. MOO.

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/40192620

 ::monkeyscissors::

“She blamed a lot of the marital problems between Kaine and herself on Kyron; it was a huge point of contention in their marriage,” Young told Vieira. “She had expressed in great detail her hatred of Kyron.

 ::monkeyscissors::

Monchichi I do believe that the letters gave Desiree an insight into Terri's mind. I find it interesting "sources" claim she wrote the letter to an extended family member.

I have been trying to find on KGW (that appears to be where that statement was coming from) where it is stated the emails were sent to an extended family member.  I have heard the same thing, and it makes you wonder the obvious:

a. Who are the "sources"?

b. Who is this extended family member?

c. Why didn't this family member speak up on Kyron's behalf?

I also wonder how long LE has been sitting on these emails?

It probably didn't take long if they got them off of her computer.

FCL - totally agree.

I've always thought the word "kisses" at the end of the note looks like it's in another person's handwriting from the rest of the note.

The S's are very different in "Kisses" than in the rest of the note.

Good eye, puzzler.

Brandi - TY.  Also, the "K" in kisses is more rounded that the "K" in  Special K

My thought exactly Monchichi. Now my next question is "how long has Desiree had this information?" Desiree has been convinced since early on that Terri was the culprit. I wonder if LE is orchestrating it so that Desiree releases little bits and pieces as time goes on? Sad to say but whatever the tactics are, that LE are using, well, they are not working! JMO

My understanding is that LE has had these emails for a long time; however, LE just informed Kaine/Desiree a week ago Friday.  Desiree found out on Friday and was on TV this past Monday morning (I believe it was Monday morning - anyway, Desiree found out about the emails the Friday before - a week and two days ago).

I don't like the impression that I'm getting that LE uses tidbits to get the parents out to talk to the press to put the pressure on.  IMO it's terrible to use the parents that way.  How emotional!!  LE needs to get out and make their own press statements.

Desiree doesn't have to get on TV and talk, I really think she is doing it to help keep the face of her child out there. I don't know if LE is telling her to do it or if she is just doing it. Either way I really admire her for it.

I have to be honest and say, I don't recall LE holding pc's this late into an investigation. Usually the family has to do it or the case is never spoken about. I am not sure how I feel if LE was using her to get information out. I suppose if she is willing to do it then it is her choice? I don't know.

So this extended family member...Supposedly a "source" told them the email was to an extended family member. The first person I thought of was Kaines former sister inlaw, not sure why except she had given information to a newspaper about Terri and Kaine. I don't know who all is who though.   

Yep and there are some word usages that interested DoubleDecker. This letter got a lot of attention from a lot of people. I wonder if LE did interview the person that was said to have written the note.

This is going to be a pretty far out theory, but I wonder if there is anyone who works at Skyline who used to be into hiking? Bryce Florian Herda was 6 years old when he went missing 4/9/95. He was hiking at the Makah Indian Reservation in Washington. Then there was Samuel Savage. He was 8 went he went missing hiking at Crater Lake in Oregon on 10/14/2006. Last, there was Derrick James Engebretson who was 8 went he went missing on 12/5/08. He was hiking in the Winema National Forest in Oregon.

IIRC some dude on FB started refering to Kyron as Special K.  I can't remember his name.  Sorry, not much help on this one.  Possibly in older threads.

Are you referring to Kristian's ex?  I don't know much about her.

I think TH would have to be pretty comfortable with this person to talk in any depth about having such negative feelings towards Kyron.  It would have to be someone that would sympathize and take her side.

 ::MonkeyJnBox::

Hi, Monkeys!

I could be wrong, but I believe that note was written by Dale Brookes (a woman), who was one of the lead psychics searching for Kyron through the Psychic Crime Fighter site:

http://www.psychiccrimefighter.com/forum/general-2/kyron-horman/page_1/ (http://www.psychiccrimefighter.com/forum/general-2/kyron-horman/page_1/)

IIRC, she began addressing Kyron as "Special K".  I could be wrong, but I think that's where this came from. 

The "search" feature on that site may not reveal much.  However, if anyone can recall the date of the note, you can look back to around that time frame.   
 ::MonkeyBike::

 ::MonkeyJnBox::

Regarding the emails....  I have a theory.

Remember when H.O. came out on his MySpace blog and had a bunch of the facts screwed up? This was the first and last time I heard about TH's hatred for Ky.

I know that H.O. listens to rumor and counts it as fact.  He said that he had it on good authority (not an exact quote, and he may have indicated a parent told him this, I can't remember exactly) but I really get the feeling that he heard it from someone in LE.  I also have a theory... just a theory, mind:  that there is a "leak" in LE that may have supplied this info to him.  Only, the leak wasn't really a leak.  It was a plant, used to build the case against TH.  (If you see what I mean.) 

I know this whole conspiracy thing sounds paranoid.  But, it's IMO. 

I find the timing very strange on the release of the contents of those supposed emails. 
Mark my words.... *** remember:  this came on the heels of the under water search on the island.  ***
 ::MonkeyEek::


I think they are getting close to discovering Kyron.  IMO, he will be found, underwater, soon.
::MonkeyAngel:: 

 ::MonkeyTears::
And, this is making some people very very nervous, IMO.
 ::MonkeyGavel::

 

 ::monkeywine2::
If anyone hears of another search, will you please let us know?  I keep forgetting to watch the news...   ::MonkeyNoNo::

I wonder if they ever fingerprinted this?

They never had a CAMERA recording this wall!  How screwed up is that?

Whoever wrote this is an a-hole.  WHY would someone want to give false hope or write something allegedly written by a missing child to a parent?  This would befuddle an investigation and the target is specifically Kaine-directly.

>Alleged MFH plot- specific victim, Kaine
>Alleged affair/sexting with Mike Cook- specific victim, Kaine
>Alleged lying, cheating wife- specific victim, Kaine
>Alleged showing RO to Mike Cook- specific victim, Kaine
>Alleged note at wall of hope- specific victim, Kaine
>Alleged can't get INTO home- specific victim, Kaine
>Alleged can't get wife OUT of home w/out paying money- specific victim, Kaine

Anyone else seeing a pattern?

People that are constant victims feed off of other people, like vampires, sucking the life out of others. 
They are emotionally heavy people to have to contantly be pulled out of their funk.  They are exhausting.
Pessimistic in a word. 

I had a friend like this years ago.  It finally got to the point where I just couldn't handle it anymore.  When I moved, I lost their number.  I haven't heard from them since.  I'm sure everyone knows someone like this- no common sense, you wonder how they survived all these years.

Question~ Does this seem like Kaine?

You were smart to lose your friends number Monkey King. There are some people who literally suck the life out of you. With regards to Kaine, I have often wondered how he has been able to keep the press out of HIS business and HIS brother Kristian's business. Creating diversions come to mind. It will be interesting to see how the media will respond now that Desiree is standing on her own and not so happy with Kaine. I wonder if the media will actually start doing their job and looking at all angles in this soap opera. The real loser always has been Kyron.

No I do not see Kaine as a mental, emotional vampire.


I see a woman who truly hated Kaine, Kyron and Desiree....and only cared about her own emotions and feelings..not her daughter, not her son, nor stepson.

 

Exactly Sebastian.

Kaine does not seem like the victim type, yet he is constantly being portrayed as one.

Although everyone is suffering their own personal hell with various issues/demons that may or may not have contributed to this "event", the sole victim here is KYRON.

The problem is, nobody on here at least I think so, really know how Terri and Kaine really are behind closed doors. All a person can do is look at them and hear what they have to say. I don't think that I ever heard Terri speak, at least I didn't hear her.

I've never heard her speak either.  All I know is in the begining of this case allegedly Terri posted online and asked people to not just to conclusions as the facts were not known.

Have a busy one today, will check back later, just thought I throw some food
out for fodder!

"...to not just to conclusions..." ~ Man, who talks like that??!!   ::MonkeyHaHa::

What I meant to say is Terri was asking people not to JUMP  ::MonkeyCheer2:: to conclusions
until the facts were known.  Why would a guilty person say this?

Do any of you think that Kaine was directly involved with Kyron's disappearance?  I'm just asking because some of you sure sound as tho you directly blame him.

I don't, but I have to say some of his words bother me. But so be it, those are his words. There are other things, but again just my feelings.

Personally, I'm not blaming anyone, I haven't gotten that far in this investigation to start pointing the fingers.

If we knew as much about Kaine as we knew about Terri, I might have another opinion.

Terri is silent in the media, and Kaine isn't. 

When someone is sheltered away, it's kind of hard to form an opinion.

Kaine on the other hand has been vocal and sometimes it's Desiree who's voical while Kaine stands to the side and acts aloof.

Kaine's lawyer files motions in his behalf and we get to see what they are thinking or how they're thinking process is working.

Terri and her lawyers are on the other side of this ping pong table.

We're just spectators with minimal information. 

Here's the thing..if Terri was innocent, why is an innocent person on the internet, within 24 hrs of Kyron missing, writing about herself?  Having a pity party about being questioned by LE, asking people not to form opinions, etc.  Just sounds like a guilty person trying to justify herself and her actions

Desiree and Kaine have come forward..if Terri isn't guilty, then why hasn't she?  Don't say because Kaine told her not to..that won't float.  It didn't stop her from emailing, being on Facebook, posting comments after articles, sexting, etc.  The point is, she hasn't been charged with anything, she has done what she wanted..even bat phones...so why would she do all these things if she was innocent.  Her actions and her lack of actions in other things..make her look guilty to my eyes.

I wonder if the truth will ever be known.  I wonder if Kyron will ever be found...

Well perhaps with the police there, Tony and Desiree, all 3 of the parents were involved in the discussions while Terri had to tend to Kiara.

Perhaps Terri was being alienated right off the bat and with nothing left else to do, she got on line to see if someone had written to her to find out if someone had contacted her over Kyron's disappearance/where abouts.  Perhaps LE told her to get on the computer?

I can't honestly say what the deal was and really, until Terri speaks up, no one else does either.

I sure hope it doesn't go the way of little Haleigh Cummings  ::MonkeyNoNo::

LE in this case has been disappointing too. Co$pared to another recent case, they look like amatures. I am a very strong believer in "Things aren't always what they appear to be". Based on that, we need more information, in 6 months, a GJ- why hasn't there been an arrest?

And- more importantly, WHERE IS KYRON??

BBM.

the only answer i can even conjure up is that people are weird.  sometimes folks do really odd things.  i have always wondered why people involved closely in missing persons cases choose to start blabbing on the internet.  however, just because it makes no sense to me, doesn't mean that they feel the same way. 

Speaking for myself fatcatlurker, I do not know what to believe. I hate that Terri has stayed mum and does not appear to be doing anything to locate the child that she raised from an infant. I hate the fact that she lawyered up instead of taking 100 lie detector tests if that is what it took. I hate that Kaine sent that email to Intel employees right out of the box. I hate that Kaine kicked some of the news media out of press conferences. What this tells me about these two is that their focus has been on themselves more so than that of Kyron. It does not get any better as time goes on. If Kaine truly believes that Terri took Kyron, then it makes complete sense that he divorced her and fought for sole custody of Kiara. Creating a media circus out of the divorce did what? Nothing to help Kyron in my opinion. Terri stays mum and Kaine's stories change over and over. Desiree is the only one that has been some what constant and she breaks my heart.

I have wondered that as well. You would think that you would have better things to do then go blabbing away on the internet, you are probably right some people are just weird, attention seekers, who knows?

http://www.facebook.com/JaneVelezMitchellHLN

Issues with Jane Velez-Mitchell TONIGHT: An exclusive interview with little Kyron Horman’s father… Kaine opens up about his missing son, his estranged wife Terri, and so much more! You don’t want to miss this!

Darn Klaas you beat me to it!  I heard the rumor and was looking everywhere for a link to post.  Thank you for the news.  And God Bless Kaine for keeping his little boys face out there in the news. 

Hey Grey are you out there and not wanting to post or just off having fun somewhere?  You are missed. 

As I recall, Terri was online immediately ordering those T-shirts and bracelets for a missing Kyron (that Kaine/Desiree are still selling) and Terri got someone she knows to help get those billboard signs up (50 billboards, I believe).  So it was Terri's job to be on the internet on behalf of Kyron.  Since she seemed to be on the internet a lot even before Kyron went missing, it would be her normal thing to do-be on the internet. Just like Kaine kept going to the gym for workouts.  IMO they tried to do something that was familiar to them in such a stunning tragedy. 

I don't know about others, but I believe I would be so shocked if my son went missing that I would sort of be on "automatic" - I don't think I could do anything other that just normal everyday functions - something so familiar that I didn't have to "think" - for Kaine/Terri that would be gym/computer. 

Also, if I were innocent and going through a tragedy like this, then I would definately be upset if I came to realize that everyone was questioning me and suspicioning me.  You're darned straight - I'd be in a panic and telling everyone, because...just think about it....how would you feel if LE, Mom Desiree, Dad Kaine, FBI, etc., etc., were looking at you for THE answer and you didn't have it...wouldn't you feel a concern?  You should!  Because we've followed enough of these cases to know that if you don't give the answer LE wants to hear - your life is destroyed. 

The smartest thing to do it get a good attorney and SHUT UP.  How many times has Cindy and George Anthony been raked over the goals because they can't keep their mouth shut?!?  Same thing would be for anyone....anyone....on the radar of LE.  Get an attorney and shut up! 

Oh, and about you're guilty if you don't pass a question on a LDT....well...there's a reason after all these many years that LDT have been available and enhanced that they are not recogized by a court...they are NOT accurate enough for a court to depend on them.  We know that. We're educated about that.  Yet...some think a person is guilty because they will not take a LDT and some think a person is guilty if they come up decepting on a LDT.  Go figure!!

Puzzler   
As I recall, Terri was online immediately ordering those T-shirts and bracelets for a missing Kyron (that Kaine/Desiree are still selling) and Terri got someone she knows to help get those billboard signs up (50 billboards, I believe).  So it was Terri's job to be on the internet on behalf of Kyron.             Puzzler I didn't know that, don't remember reading that, but there is so much to read in several cases, must have missed that.

Concerning the gym, I am not that bothered that they went to the gym.  I'm sure they had their cell phones with them at every second. When I went through something horrible I was told by my counselor and by others to make a point to get some physical exercise because it relieves anxiety and depression.  When my husband asked for a divorce, and then moved out, I spent time at the gym simply because I couldn't stand to be in the house because of the absence of my 'husband'.  I was dangerously depressed and that's when I was given the advice to get out and get the body's natural endorphines (and also because it would help with the sleeplessness).  I don't think I could sit in the house all day waiting for an answer I'm not likely to get if I were misssing my baby - it would literally drive me over the edge.  I wouldn't be much good helping with anything as far as searching goes then.

That being said, what DID bother me about the gym is THAT is what Terri blogged about on her myspace or facebook or whatever she was using the first day or so.  The fact that they went to the gym, not so much.

Sebastian - I agree with your post - I'm all over the place in what to think and who to believe.  We don't really have much concrete facts:  Kyron is missing, Kyron went missing from school, Kyron went missing on June 4, 2010 (I'm sure I'm missing a couple of things...but there's really few concrete facts that we have).

I do not know Terri.  I do not know Kaine.  I do not know Desiree.   I've heard nothing from Terri except for some emails that we're not even sure she was the one that typed them (not concrete); we've heard from Kaine himself some conflicting statements (concrete?  we did hear from Kaine verbally and in court filings - I would say the court filing is concrete); Desiree is the one I come closest to believing, even though what we hear from her is her version in her extreme emotional state. 

At this moment in time, Kaine is the one most on my radar (NOT because I think he's guilty of disappearing Kyron), because he's the most vocal: pressers, court filings, and now JVM tonight.  So, he's out there...making him the most visible on my radar to look at right now.  I think parents should be out there for their missing children and keeping Kyron in the press and people thinking about Kyron and letting people know that Kyron's not home yet.

Kaine has made conflicting statements, though, and IMO has disrespected Desiree (even Desiree said publicly that she can not stand by the decisions Kaine is making - a statement about what Kaine is doing currenty).  The other day I asked a question:  have we ever heard Kaine appeal to the person who has Kyron to let him go?  Not one person has posted that they heard him do that.  Wow...that says a lot to me.  Now...wouldn't it be interesting if Kaine makes that appeal tonight on JVM? 

 

Yes, that was out there, but mainly overlooked.  I did have a "link" saved on it, too, but have literally just changed to a new computer over this past weekend and I no longer have that link.

But, the information is out there.

Thank-you

FCL - my heart says no and my mind wants to think no; however, truth is...IMO...we don't have enough concrete evidence to "know" one way or the other.  BUT...like I said, my heart just doesn't want to go there that Kaine had anything to do with Kyron missing. 

I don't think the "whole" truth will ever be known; I pray that Kyron will be found. 

Could this fall in the category we always hear: different people handle tragedy in different ways?

That thought scare me and I have to admit that it's crossed my mind, too.

MK - agree that LE has been disappointing.  When I compare them to NC LE (Zahra's case).  Wow...what a difference.  In that case, LE was upfront, allowed the press to be very involved, the public has known all along what's going on and the progress they're making. NC LE has done a superb job in handling their case.  I don't want to infer that OR LE hasn't worked hard in their case.  That isn't it.  But I am disappointed that they don't come out an talk for themselves, that they give the parents tidbits of information, knowing the parents will go out.  However, IMO, it's tantamount to "using" the parents and I don't like that aspect.  Also, LE hasn't let out any real information and have manufactured photos to present for people to come to them with "independent" recollections (oxymoron). 

GJ - according to what we've heard, the GJ has talked with hundreds of people...still no arrest?  It's sounding to me like Stanton still doesn't have the concrete evidence he needs.

Totally agree with you on the gym.  Just don't understand why it's so bothersome that Terri was on the computer.  That's what she did...use the computer a lot...much like the posters her on SM.  We're on the computer a lot.  Maybe you wouldn't have gone to the computer, maybe I wouldn't have gone to the computer....but what's wrong with Terri going to the computer?  Maybe she was asked to be on the computer...looking for emails about Kyron, ordering T-shirts and bracelets, getting billboard signs up, looking to see if anyone one (a craz-o) is posting anything on the websites about Kyron, etc.  What's so wrong with that? 

Kaine interview on JVM NOW(after the commercial break).
Jane's off tonight for those that don't care for her.

Just read this post on BOC:

http://blinkoncrime.com/2010/11/02/kyron-horman-case-terri-horman-sexts-sent-to-kaine-hormans-phone-what/comment-page-42/#comments

1.   Kaylee says:
November 22, 2010 at 12:36 pm
If someone also posts on Scared Monkeys, can you relay this information? From my research, I found that there were three people (who know each other from the psychic websites) together at the Wall of Hope when the mysterious note on the wall was written. It is not the person who is named on SM.

http://niecey456.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/24513330_640x480.jpg

One of those people is a personal friend of mine and I believe her when she says she saw the note written (which she posted on the psychic crime fighter website). http://www.psychiccrimefighter.com/ I have also been in email contact with the person I believe wrote the note. She is an area mom who has been out searching for Kyron using psychic guidance.

Another question brought up on SM was where Harry Morgan got his information for his gossip filled rant. I believe it came from one of the three women above, as she has been out searching with him. I don’t know or have any contact with her, but I think she used to post on this forum until she drew a rebuke from Blink. I can’t remember what her hat was here.

I hope I won’t draw a rebuke from Blink for posting this. My apologies in advance Blink, but I have been waiting for Klaasend’s approval to SM for months and am not able to post there.

Kaine says he has a couple of theories about what happened.

Kaine says Terri kept alhcolism hidden.  Slow build up over time.

Finances managed separately from each other, with that set up he didn't see everything.

Kaine never answered the question by Jane about passing-out drunk.  All Kaine said was Terri kept it hidden.

How can a person be passing-out drunk several nights a week AND have kept it hidden?

Haven't a clue, that would be very hard to hide.

BBM

I would not be on the computer Saturday complaining to friends that LE had interviewed me more then once..when my stepson was reported missing less then 24 hours ago.  I would be busy talking with my husband, LE , Tony, Desiree, my family..trying to figure out what happened.  I would not be on the internet complaining to a friend about LE questioning me.

Sorry..that is just incomprehensible to me.  As far as ordering the t shirts and bracelets, organizing the donations of food , etc for searchers....she did not do that..her friends did..reread her her Facebook..she passed all of that on to them.  Which is the norm..no harm there.

Puzzler I don't think people care about any of the above Terri alledged activites online following Kyron going missing (ordering Tshirts/buttons/getting flyers ordered/organized/even surfing for nutbags that may have taken Kyron).  I think they are a little concerned about these;

http://www.katu.com/news/local/97541389.html

For example, five days after Kyron disappeared, KATU On Your Side investigators found Terri and her husband, Kaine, leaving their gym after a workout.

People commented about it and called her actions “unbelievable.”

Terri responded: “Wow. Unless you know all the details, the stress, the worry, the pain, you have nothing to speak of. You are merely making assumptions - you have no facts, details or knowledge to present so please refrain from your accusations,” she wrote.

She also responded to less significant matters like to people wondering why the couple’s Ford truck was towed from the Horman’s property.

Terri writes it was a mechanical issue. “If I may clear your mind … the truck was towed due to starter and is back at the property.”

In her longest post, about the church vigil for Kyron, Terri takes issue with a person who criticized the Horman family for observing the ceremony from a private room.

“Just so you can have the facts straight since I know personally … The family … went to the back of the church to watch and be part of the community - all together - mom, stepmom, dad, stepdad. …”

That was 11 days before Kaine moved out.

_____________________________________________________________________

JMO but it's a little concerning when a stepmother of a missing child gets online to post comments with bloggers on news articles in an argumentative and defensive way.  These are just the online ones we know about I'd bet $$$ there are more.  Not to mention the "Bat Phones".

I personally don't care.  IMO it leaves me a character and electronic trail for her that I'm sure we will hear about later at trial so it's all good.

As you pointed out - CA - the similarities are there.   To me she is claiming her silence as an act in this respect (cuz in Terri World we are stupid!) and I say "Keep on Talkin Sugar".  All JMO.

Unless what Kaine at first thought was Terri being really tired or just falling asleep turned out to be passing-out drunk  :smt102

Kaine has said that he was told by Terri that she had PPD..that she was also on meds for that..many meds make people sleepy.

He has also said in an interview that until she was gone from the house he didn't know how she hid the drinking.  Then they found soda cans, bottles, etc..hidden everywhere.with booze in them.  That is typical for abusers of alcohol..

He was also told by Terri that Kiara was fussy and teething so she needed to be up at odd times to take care of her..We each think what we have concluded...but many of the questions you raise were answered by Kaine long ago, as the investigation and Terri's behavior has come to light.  That is what makes me believe Kaine..some say he has contridicated himself...when you look back he really hasn't..he has been slowlly realizing what was happening..just my opinion 



 

Separate accounts? So she must have been making money from someplace. I thought he said she was spending all of his money? Maybe she had access to his account?
So Terri was stumbling, had slurred speech, passing out drunk on the couch while, the baby played alone, (wondering where Kyron was) and he didn't notice. I think that probably describes it a bit better. I think Kaine is trying to avoid being charged with child endangerment or what did they call it, failure to protect?

Also until the jig is up and it is all out in the open (the alcoholism) you cannot smell it - atleast I never could.  Now it's like radar nose - I can smell a drinker from a distance.  They reek.  And they will lie/deny/and hide it forever if they want to.  JMO

That is my question too, especially since in his sworn affadavit he states she was "Visibly" drunk, staggering and slurring and then passed out on the couch and had Kiara with her at of after midnight (see, even if I had NO clue why my spouse was behaving this way~I'd have gotten out or insisted she seek therapy for whatever unknown ailment she was suffering.)...I would never allow my toddler to be on the floor in front of the tv with no supervision for fear of accidents, but maybe I am just overly cautious. I missed JVM so hope someone got in on video. I also feel it could be going the way of HaLeigh Cummings, too dads with custody-both IMO are control freaks and other similarities, not to mention the actions of LE remind me of each other sadly (and we kept praying LE knows more than they are telling ::MonkeyNoNo:: ) 2 days until Thanksgiving, he needs to be found now......

Thanks for the info about the internet , shirts and bracelets Puzzler~I never knew that ::MonkeyEek::

Gypsy - TY

Now that you've said so, I take you at your word and I understand that "you" wouldn't be on the computer talking to your friends, so I "guessing" that's why it makes it bothersome to you that Terri was on the computer.   

I don't "do" Facebook.  Too much for me to keep up with as it is.   ::MonkeyWink::

I don't know what I would have been doing...I know I wouldn't be on Facebook.  I don't want to get into the mode of defending Terri.  I don't know her at all, so IMO I can't defend her.  I don't know facts about what happened in that household during those first 24 hours, so I cannot make any judgement as to "why" anyone did what they did.  Since I don't know the people and wasn't in the house during those hours, I feel I cannot make any judgement on why/what anyone did.

Also, because Terri is the one that LE is looking at so strongly, Terri is the one we know the most about.  I am NOT advocating checking out anyother person that was there those first 24 hours; however, there might be additional questionable actions by others if we knew as much about them.  Just sayin'...

At this point, I don't want to know.  I just want Kyron found and the guilty person(s) to be brought to justice.  I don't care who the guilty person is...just that she/he/them be brought to justice. 

There is "something" very convoluted about this case.  GJ has had hundreds of people come before them in this case and still no indictment.  Hopefully, an indictment will eventually happen; however, the best I can gleen from all of this is that the GJ is talking to so many people to try to close in on a suspect.  Obviously, the GJ has not gotten a clear picture who that suspect is at this juncture.

IMO, there's "more" involved.  I do think Terri is involved, but IMO this is not a clean-cut case and it indicates to me that more people are involved.
The more people involved the bigger the story.  I don't think this is simply a case of step-mom not liking step-son (could be a "piece" of the reason but not "the" reason - anyway - that's the way I see it today)

TracyGirl-
That's what I was thinking- if their money was seperate, how was Terri spending it?

Really

I think you have forgotten one important fact...Kaine was an advocate of counseling for the family and each of them.

Terri was seeing a counselor and doctor..she told Kaine she was..for PPD.

Kaine and Terri were in counseling for their marriage..he said that.

When Kyron was admitted to school a year early for his birthdate..he met with counselor and psychiatrist.

When Kyron expressed wanting to live with Desiree only...not this past summer but the one prior..when they had just started the half the summer break with Mom the other half with Dad.  That came out in one of the early interviews with Kaine and Desiree.  Kaine said that ater speaking with a counselor they found this was normal for Kyron's age and for the first summer this took place.

So..not only did she fool Kaine, Desiree..and would hope her family...but also the professionals
Kaine was paying to help the family.

So far I think that Kaine did what he could do..at what point is this Terri's responsibility to own up to her feelings and actions?  To some here it seems like Terri was a small child with no accountabilty for her actions, her well being, the well being of the children, her financial life, etc..she was not a child ..she was adult who could have left at anytime she wanted..she did not leave..until she was legally kicked out.

I don't know, he is a smart guy, not too young, has been around the block I am sure. For me I think he should have known.

I think most dept's of LE are sooooo hesitant to make those charges when another child is missing, even when it's a valid charge as in the case of Ron Cummings IMO.....

I think I'd like someone other than Kaine to verify these facts as his can be distorted to how he perceives them (as in when he said he wasn't cheating on Desiree, and she clearly felt he was.......and even in one of the shows last week, he tends to minimize her pain "she's not mad at me etc" when she clearly is very angry and who can blame her).

Interesting tidbit about the seperate finances, so now I do wonder how she was spending his money, also I am somewhat offended by the stmts "she was just a stay home mom".....HELLO, IMO that was the hardest job I had, trying to combine schedules of 4 kids, schoolwork, housework, dinner, literally a taxi for kids, and I didn't even do yardwork. I think if you tallied up everything a stay hom mom does, Forbes or USA Today did it once and it came out to about a 85,000 a yr salary when they broke it down. I think it's a slap in the face to stay home mom's, many who could be out in the workforce earning good money, but they make a sacrifice to stay home with the kids. Maybe I am the only one who feels that way, but I know my job now is easier than when I was a stay home mom, not as gratifying in the most important areas but I had no choice.

TY for the tidbit about the soda cans, bottles with booze, hidden everywhere - I've never read that information anywhere before. 

I know he's been consistent about Terri hiding the drinking and he wasn't aware...but in his court filing he said she had slurred speech, she was stumbling and she was passed-out drunk several nights a week.  That paints a picture of an on-going and very visible problem and not hidden.

I do believe it was a slow progression and I do believe "at first" Kaine wasn't aware.  But the picture being painted is not everything was rosey one week and the next week Terri was an alcholic...doesn't happen that way either.  So I believe a lot of what Kaine says.  But, IMO, Kaine's words during interviews that we hear and see don't portray what he filed in his affidavit to the court.

Best I recall, Kaine said Terri had PPD and would have to be watched for about 6 months.  I don't think I've see anything clear on whether Terri was taking PPD meds so long after Kiara was born.  If any monkey can point me in a direction for that information, I sure would appreciate it.

BBM~this is why I can see someone being extremely upset......it was HER actions of going to the gym that were called out, instead of BOTH of their actions. Personally, I couldn't have gone to the gym, after E passed I didn't even take a shower for 2 days and went to the florist to pick out flowers in my PJ's and barely was able to even do that.

Gypsy I haven't forgotten anything, I disagree with you. I am not taking everything Kaine has said as the absolute truth as you seem to be doing which that is your choice to do. I think Kaine practices a bit of CYA. That is my opinion of him.

Actually I would like him to have to answer in court as to why he says all of this happened with Terri yet he didn't notice or realize. I think all parents, not just Kaine, should be held accountable if the children are kept in a dangerous situation such as the one he stated in court documents. I believe in the child protection laws and the only change I would make to them would be to make them harsher.   

Agree completely about the lie/deny/hide parts.  But unless you are so detached or you're not at home - you just can't ignore slurred speech or stummbling gait or passed-out drunk - especially night-after-night.

Nope but you may deny it.

Did he say that on the TV show about only being a stay at home mom? I didn't get to see the show. Why do men feel that way? I have never understood how raising children, cooking, cleaning, shopping ='s an easy time of it. I am now a full time mom and I work PT at our business. I am thankful I get out of the house and talk to adults now! 

Fatcatlurker my first thought was perhaps he was also drinking. That would explain why he didn't  quite notice it.

Edit, fix typo.  MB

Oh...is what you're saying that Kaine may have been in denial?

Hmmm...never thought of that one.

Oops! Sorry should read, fatcatlurker! Didn't mean to call you a fatlurker! Yikes!

Being a stay at home mom is not only hard work, there are times that you feel you are going to lose your mind. And yes going to work was like a mini vacation, much easier.

Question: 

If Kaine were tasked to "prove" his sworn comments to the court that his spouse was a passed-out drunk several nights a week -

how would one go about proving it?

I guess it would come down to he said, she said. Don't know how you would prove it.

I didn't see it, worked late agan, grrrrrr. I am talking more about what I read all over the net, like being a mother of 3 kids is all sitting around eating bon-bons and spending hubbie's money, IMO if hubbie (in all marriages not just this one) had to pay for childcare, a cook, a maid, someone to get the kids to and from everything they do, Dr's appt etc., they'd be out alot of money and I just felt when I was as stay home mom, that was my job also so I didn't need to ask to spend money (obvioulsy nothing expensive or lavish) but on general items. I never understood it either as to me it was the hardest job I had, I did it because I wanted to be with my kids and I have no choice anymore, but it was still much harder and in that aspect I can see someone using the computer to have some grown up/adult interaction. Of course, nothing excessive in that either, but I remember when I was able to get out I am sure I talked my head off since I finally had someone to chat with about things other than schoolwork, dinner, chores, and going potty ::MonkeyHaHa::

I don't know

Well I know my answer will Piss you guys off.  But anyway here goes - Kaine's child is missing and Terri is the one under suspicion.  I do not see LE looking at anyone else.  He will not need to prove anything once she is cleared or charged that is why the judge granted them the extra time.

So knowing that information don't you think and wouldn't you also do what you needed to do to protect the remaining child.  This all pertains to the RO and Divorce/Custody not the fact that the stepmother of the missing child is under suspicion and very well could have Criminal Charges brought against her that could very well be in her future.  Hence having the best Criminal Attorney in the State of Oregon and pleading the 5th Ammendment. 

You can't have it both ways either JMO.  If you were in Kaine's shoes some of you may allow this person to see that child but I know personally for me I'd lie to the devil until I knew exactly what LE thought regarding Terri Horman.  And as we see Desiree and Kaine are both being lead to believe it is HER by LE.  You can be mad at LE but how can you fault him for protecting the remaining child anyway he can from her at this point in time. 

He is damned if does and damned if he doesn't with some.  JMO. 

Yes I could see him denying it especially as TracyGirl pointed out if he also was drinking.  It's very hard to be an occasional drinker and live with an alcoholic that you care about - tons of denial going on everywhere.  There is also a reason for the label "functioning alcoholic". 

TracyGirl don't worry about the Fatlurker - Klaas has beat you to that one.  ha!

Doesn't piss me off, I know how adamant I was that my son NEVER see his sperm donor again, so much so I was prepared to leave the country if he even got supervised visitation, but I did have to prove my case in a court. I also agree that LE believes this, so therefore so do Kaine and Desiree, I am really beginning to think he has a vast perception problem........not anything ugly, but some just see things way different than they really are and from the info he's stated just this last week and the differnce of views in Kaine cheating on Desiree when she was preggers, I am wondering if that's why he comes across as minimizing others, specifically Desiree's anger, pain and frustration.

This in particular stands out as minimizing Desiree's anger:

I snipped this from Blink's site, but it is how I am starting to possibly view things and why IMO I stated the above about skewed perception

He [Kaine] also downplayed the apparent fracture between himself and Desiree. Earlier this week, she accused him of withholding information about what was happening at home between Terri and Kyron. ‘I know that she’s extremely upset. I don’t know it’s necessarily at me or anyone else in particular. We’re all having a hard time with this,’ he said. ‘I’m just chalking it up to just one of those really difficult times that we’re going through right now. It’s getting close to the holidays – we’re all really emotional about this and as far as how our relationship is doing, it’s fine. We haven’t spoken for a little bit longer than normal but that will be rectified here shortly with the holidays coming up … I’m not worried about it at all.’”

Obviously she was very upset at him for not sharing information that she as Kyron's mother should have known and I wouldn't be so blase if I had upset someone (specifically the mother of my child that is gone) as to say "it's fine" and "I'm not worried about it at all"

Geeze I didn't mean to chase anybody off.  I just think rationally with the information the man is being given by LE right up to this past Friday regarding Terri he has to do what he has to do in regards to Kiara.

What if she is guilty? 

IM I agree that Kaine has his issues I don't know many men who don't come without them.  And I am sure they will come out eventually.  I don't know why Desiree didn't try harder than she did to get Kyron placed with her much earlier when she came back from her medical procedures and recently in the past year.  I have heard some rumors and have some suspicions from early on in this case but as we have been informed family is reading this site I will keep that to myself.  I don't know if Tony had a part in the custody decisions either and it looks good for Desiree to place all the blame on Kaine for now.  I wish I knew what LE was getting at by leaking things the way they have.  Other than pressure on Terri.

I'd love to see a video of Kaine and Terri together other than the few we have with no talking between them.  If I were Terri I would of been a little jealous watching Kaine and Desiree myself.   

ITA.  I think, given the situation, he has to do everything he can to protect Kiara. 

Every day holds the possibility of a miracle.

Only 2 reasons I can think of, one possibility is that there was also something in her closet (for lack of a better term) or the fact it takes in most states a significant change in circumstance (more in a negative way of the one with custody) to ask custody to change hands and most attornies will tell you this, that is why it's vitally important that custody go to the more responsible parent to begin with, although we know that is often not the case, and alot of times it comes down to who outlawyers who. I know parents who have had the parent with custody go to jail on a white collar crime and still not get custody. Famous Orange County, CA custody attorney and about 250,000 for representation in your case, can't recall a case he lost.

 ::MonkeyTongue:: LOL about all men having problems, no doubt!!! But I am specifically talking about the way he perceives "situations and events" vs how other's do, and why when he talks about them he eithers sounds like he is contradicting himself or minimizing the situation. I know ppl who do this, and damn it is so frustrating........the person who has the anger/fear/frustration knows it's real, so when it's minimized it becomes an even bigger issue.

I too would love to know why LE is leaking info etc or if they aren't I can't imagine a rep not stating so.....very odd and sad case  ::HelloKitty::

I totally agree with your posts. But I sometimes feel that rational and logical go out the window when someone is disliked. I hate to sound like a Kaine Horman cheerleader, but I feel he is getting an unfair tarbrushing. Kaine is disliked by some, perhaps because there may be some projection going on, perhaps some mistaken sympathy for Terri (although I hope there would be no one that could identify with her on this forum!), or some personalizing of the Horman divorce/custody situation, etc. And when more information about Terri trickles out, then this is sneaky LE, 'leaking' info to try to unfairly trap Terri. LE is not on Kaine Horman's payroll. If they thought he was guilty, we'd be hearing a bunch of stuff about him as well; they have no "We hate Terri Horman, just because..." agenda. But... no matter what the facts are, they seem to be ignored or twisted through speculation to villify him further.
It's unavoidable I guess, because we are all entitled to our opinions and foibles, but I don't have to like it. :sad:

FCL - you're not pizzing me off.  You and I think a little bit differently about this case and see things in similar but not the same ways.  I learn from your posts.  There would be nothing to discuss if we all thought exactly alike. 

We only "see" LE looking at Terri - yet LE "says" they're looking at lots of things.  So, based on their indication that more that one person is involved, I tend to believe LE is looking at more than just Terri.

You say Kaine doesn't need to prove anything once Terri is cleared or charged.  You're talking about the criminal investigation.

I'm talking about the affidavit Kaine filed in court and all the accusations he made in that filing.  That is a civil matter.  While the threshold for the judge to allow such information in court, there still has to be more than "he said" for the judge to make that decision. 

I absolutly agree with you that Kaine should do everything he can to protect his child - but that is being battled in civil court during the divorce case.  Since the divorce case is moving ahead of the criminal case (at this minute - subject to change at any second), then the battle to keep Kiara away from Terri is happening in the civil court.  That's the reason why I ask - if Kaine's statements are to be accepted by the judge in court - how would one go about "proving" his assertions.

It's a question.   

I'm so sorry to hear about your loss. 

Hi Island Monkey,
I too am so sorry about your loss! I know exactly what you mean about your post. If my child was missing the only thoughts that would be racing in my head would be "who has them", "are they scared", "are they being mistreated", "how do I find them". I would not take a single second to email people at my place of employment to tell them not to talk to the media,(Kaine) and I sure as heck would not give a rats (*&*^ what people may or may not be saying about me online much less respond to it (Terri). Both Kaine and Terri were in their work out gear at the gym (very shortly after Kyron went missing, not months later). I just cannot wrap my head around that. If a therapist suggested that I go work out while my child was missing, I would tell them to pound sand. Kaine has consistently come across as snarky and cold TO ME, I am sorry that is just the way that it is. It bothered me that Kaine never put Terri on his house. Here Terri was taking care of his child as well as her own, and by all of the photos that I saw of their home, it looked as if Terri kept a tidy organized home. She volunteered in Kyron's class, took him to his sports practices, etc. She was o.k. to do these things, but it was not o.k. for Kaine to show his appreciation by adding his wife's name to his house. Now tonight we hear how their money was seperate. This does not surprise me in the least. Just more controlling on Kaines part, IN MY OPINION. Kaine can come out and say that Terri has 3 heads and who could dispute it? The media has been forwarned by Kaine. It is his way or out the door you go. Terri will not dispute it, because Terri only cares about Terri, IN MY OPINION. It was nice to hear that Kaine is still out at local businesses keeping Kyron's fliers out there. I would be shocked if Terri has gotten off of her duff and lifted a single finger to do anything for Kyron in months. They accused her. How dare they? She will show them? She will get an expensive, high powered Attorney and cut them off at the knees.

I am sorry but I am very very disappointed in both Kaine and Terri's actions.

JMO

She was angry enough to make a public statement that she can no longer support the decisions that Kaine is making.  (She previously said they still stand together in wanting Kyron back).  I trust that the comment Desiree made about no longer supporting Kaine and his decisions was not made lightly and she chose her words carefully IMO.  At the beginning, she said they still stand together in wanting Kyron back (at that point you realize more is coming) and toward the end she said she can no longer support Kaine and the decisions he is making (current). 

Makes me wonder what else LE told Desiree on that Friday that they told her about the emails from Terri.  It could be that Desiree is justifiably upset about the filing he made in court against Terri and that Kaine had not told her that Kyron was living in such an unstable homelife and that Kaine allowed that to continue "only" - but my sleuthing mind "wonders" if Desiree found out more from LE on Friday.  Don't forget...Kaine's filing had been out there for a while - not just a day or two before Desiree last talked publicly. 

Also, some have posted that if it was so bad Terri could have just walked out.  I totally agree with those posts.  I also totally agree that if things were as bad as Kaine asserted in his filing, Kaine could have walked out, too.  IMO - that one works both ways.

If she's guilty - I hope she's brought to SWIFT justice...her and any little co-conspirators (if there are any).  The sooner...the better, too!

Thanks Starwynn and Sebastian~This was last summer and I feel blessed to have had 11 weeks......now, he's an angel ::MonkeyAngel::

Here's an interesting post I just read on BOC - old news but a good refresher (at least for me):

http://blinkoncrime.com/2010/11/02/kyron-horman-case-terri-horman-sexts-sent-to-kaine-hormans-phone-what/

annals says:
November 22, 2010 at 8:45 pm
Falstaff says:
November 22, 2010 at 1:00 pm
I remember during one of the press conference’s with Desiree and Kaine (It might have been at the church) something was said about Kyron being in the parking lot. He was seen outside the school, and then Desiree said “Kaine’s truck.” Meaning there was more then one truck, and the truck Kyron was standing near at that time was “Kaines truck.” At the time I felt it was an odd thing for her to mention, and the manner in which she said it I noticed. I know I heard it, can’t look for it now, maybe this evening.
——————————————-
This is a transcript I made of the interview you’re referencing:

KGW.com Kaine Horman & Desiree Young 8/27/2010 Part 2;
http://www.kgw.com/video?id=101688128&sec=547987

Sarah: “Oh, just, just, because I don’t want to miss this part; the truck, because that’s important. There’s more evidence that came out about a white truck. Potentially one person in the truck…three people…THE WHITE TRUCK, Terri’s truck, can you…”
Desiree: “Kaine’s truck.”
Sarah: “Kaine’s truck, I’m sorry, I just don’t want to miss anything. And I know we have to go. Umm, ’cause that’s important. That’s new information.”
Desiree: “yeah”
Sarah: “What are your thoughts on that new information? Do you feel as though DeDe was in that truck?”
Desiree: “It just makes me feel stronger that there were people helping her. That Kyron saw it all and was involved and that there were other people helping her. Which is what we suspected.”
Sarah: “So, because…But, do you believe a man was spotted? I mean, again, these are witness accounts and I don’t know how much information that you’ve been privy to about, uh…What is the likeliest scenario?”
Desiree: “Well first of all, why would Kyron even be outside the school? Why would he even be near a truck with somebody else in it? It’s significant, in a huge way, to the case. If the timeline played out the way that it supposedly did…that contradicts that completely. So, I mean other than that…that’s how significant it was to me.”
Sarah: “How authentic do you think that witness is?”
Desiree: “Very authentic.”
Sarah: “So it’s a credible witness.”
Desiree: “Yeah.”
Sarah: “And what, exactly, are they claiming they saw?”
Kaine: “Well, to be direct about it; I think law enforcement needs to determine that still.” …
——————————–

Desiree was correcting the interviewer when she said; “Kaine’s truck”

---------------------------

BINGO on all points!!!!!! My loss was my grandon's death and he has born 17 weeks premature and we knew he might not make it (not knowing where my child or grandchild would be WORSE IMO) and even being somewhat prepared, you just do NOT function on any scale of normal........I walked out of my office one morning and didn't even bother to call and tell what happened, I just wasn't there and frankly it never crossed my mind, I barely remember what happened that week except the jammies and politically incorrect T-Shirt while picking our flowers (I am almost positive I didn't even brush my teeth that day either)......it's like that, nothing matters and normalcy isn't normal IYKWIM?

I too am so disappointed with the apalling actions of Terri, and the odd reactions of Kaine (cause I'd have said to hell with it, fire me, I am going to turn over the computer PERIOD), I'd have never been at the gym as I had no energy or strength, thus the baseball cap on the hair for a week or 3 and ITA about the snarly/cold feeling so many have about him, sorry it was a gut reaction and not projection or anything like that, but again I agree about the house not having her name on it too, and I am LOL at this post because it's EXACTLY how I feel, she was good enough for him to cheat with on Desiree, sleep with, take care of the kids, house, cook dinner etc, but not good enough to be on the house and I was not surprised either about the seperate finances, and that he appears IMO to be very controlling. I also think everything we hear comes from Kaine, even what he told Desiree, BUT hell hath no fury like a mama bear and who knows what Desiree has been shown and she has definitely made her displeasure known and I think that was why there was a presser after she was on GMA and a media blitz the rest of the week, granted it does keep Ky's name and face out there, but at the cost of the emotions of a mother who never was given any knowledge of what type of crap was going on in that house, and honestly we don't know, we only know what Kaine decides to tell the media and if you don't believe it or think it's hinky, you're cruel and horrible to a greiving dad........not the case, we want hard, cold facts and not he said/he said, but Terri won't talk so she's to blame for that, unless we buy the fact that she had nothing at all to do with this, and is the fall guy, and I don't believe that either. I am on the fence and tend to believe that something in the couple's lifestyle invited a monster in, yet too much CYA going on to ever get to the bottom of it and possibly never knowing where he is or what happened.......GRRRRR, I should stop now before I lose it. Right now Beth Holloway is waiting to learn if a bone found on the beach is Natalee's, and she has shown such incredible dignity, grace and tenacity in 5 1/2 yrs, so when I see these other cases it angers me, and maybe it shouldn't as not everyone can be Beth~ she is an original and a force to be reckoned with.

As far as the separate monies goes, it may have been to TH's benefit to keep her funds separate from his.  Keep in mind she had child support money, and possibly money from her lawsuit or car accident.  Somehow I don't think TH was suffering.  Keeping him out of her finances gave her freedom.

 ::rhino:: ::rhino:: Ditto on that too....but looks like this case is going to be tied up for a long time with no evidence, I pray they have something hard and fast, but feel if they did, she'd have been arrested.

It does remind me that Terri said she had to pay Kaine so much money a month (forget how much right now - but a substantial amount) and she said she'd spent all of her $30K (I took that to mean settlement money). So the house was not a home in joint names with Terri.  Terri had to pay a monthly fee.  Also, Terri most all of the chores, including yard work, kept the kids and did extracurricular activities, too.  I can see Terri adding in some for James (while he lived there) but not the amount that she claimed she had to pay Kaine every month.  Just seems out-of-joint IMO.

Yes, it's really bothersome that the GJ has had hundreds of people before them and still no indictment. 

 ::MonkeyTongue:: Exactly, you can indict a ham sandwich and I am not certain but an indictment doesn't necessarily mean she would be charged immediately or does it?? Any legal eagles in here tonight? Sorry, hopping cages tonight since I DO think this jawbone is Natalee ::MonkeyNoNo::

ICBW but I think once an indictment is handed down, they have to charge her within a certain time frame.  Does anybody know the answer?

Good Morning Monkeys. Regarding keeping their finances separate. I guess I'm able to see that Terri stating she had to pay a monthly fee to Kaine could possibly be a lie to gain pity. $1000/mth is what I saw. She was getting child support for James. Lets not forget these two people lived together prior to getting married. It is possible to love a person who can not control the spending of money. A person might not understand how  financial decisions they have made affect being able to get loans and credit in the future. I find it very common especially in second marriages for people to have three accounts. His, hers, and a joint. He said they kept their finances separate, he didn't say that he didn't put money in an account for her to use on household type items such as groceries and necessities. I am just finding it hard to believe he didn't put money in an account so she could do some things she enjoyed.

It is very possible he purchased the house in his name only because of her credit history. He might have been able to get the loan with a much lower interest rate by going it alone. This would save them alot of money monthly in house payments. They appear to have a nice home but not an over the top home.

Lets not forget they also took some nice vacations. I doubt he made her save her pennies to pay her share on these trips. I live out here and I haven't once seen her walking along the road looking for pop bottles so she had spending money. It's looks to me in the pictures I have seen that she has nice clothes. She had a gym membership. She had a laptop computer. Sorry but I have done the lawn work, cleaned gutters, house, cooked, and lots of other things at my home. Raised my daughter myself and worked full time to do so. I didn't have a John Deere tractor to do this with. Sure would make my life easier to have one.

I also understand everyone is upset because he didn't share info with Desiree. How heart breaking for her to learn these things from LE. However, he has also learned things from LE that have been just as heart breaking for him. I don't pretend to know how these two people are feeling right now. Desiree has one focus right now and that is to find her beloved son Kyron. Kaine not only wants that but also wants to keep his beautiful daughter safe from the evil that took his son. He has to spend every day realizing he was possibly sleeping with the Devil. That alone would keep me down then add the other junk to it and I don't know how he gets out of bed in the morning, leaves his child with someone to care for her, and goes to work.

As far as the email he sent to the employees at Intel. Has anyone considered he was advised to do that by LE. They wanted info kept quiet at first. I can't imagine anyone made a move those first few days without discussing it with LE first.

Have I hit on pretty much all the discussions I've read in the last couple days.

Believe me I want the evil people responsible put away. I just learned recently that I have a Gkid in the oven. Tomorrow we go for the first ultrasound. This is pregnancy number four and we are all praying it will be different this time. We pray this will be a viable pregnancy. Wow! Trust me if I have a Gkid I will worry every day about this child. In this world we live in no one knows. I will do everything in my power to keep this child safe. Right now my daughter is over the moon with excitement. We all are. We will know more tomorrow. Today I have to watch my daughter get in her car and travel to work over Cornelius Pass in all the ice we have here. I am terrified. I only have to go 1 mile to work and I'm nervous about that as I have to travel on Hwy 30 to get there. I have 4wheel drive and will use it but I realize it doesn't help you to stop the vehicle. All vehicles have brakes on all 4 wheels. But others don't seem to realize that so they drive too fast endangering everyone on the road.

Anyone in this area please stay safe if you are driving somewhere. If you don't have to please stay home. Stay safe and warm.

These are all my own opinions. JMO

Kaine’s interview with Jane Velez-Mitchell

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1011/22/ijvm.01.html (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1011/22/ijvm.01.html)

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HLN HOST: Do you have a theory as to what happened to your son?

HORMAN (via telephone): I have a few, and it just really — it just depends on how investigations go. It will help kind of dictate which ones of those are correct. But I have a couple of, yes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You can`t share any of that with us even though —

HORMAN: You know, I`d rather not, our divorce case is still pending. We`re in the middle of the legal process there. The criminal cases haven`t started.

And when they do — yes, I really — yes, I have theories but sharing those theories potentially does some jeopardy to his case by giving other people insight that I really don`t want to have to share that information with.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Was there one moment where you suddenly looked at her and said, oh, my God, and then chills and goose bumps just invaded your body and you said, “Oh, my god, the person I`m living with, that I share my bed with, I believe might have something to do with my child`s disappearance?”

HORMAN: Yes. Those were all events or times that occurred after he was missing already. And during those weeks that followed, that process we went through, the investigative process, it`s — let`s face it.

It`s a grueling process and it`s your ability as a parent or family member to be ruled out, to be ruled out as a suspect, to be ruled out as having any involvement with whatever has happened. And you have every ability to work with them, to clear yourself.

And as soon as that started to go south, as soon as she was refusing to cooperate, lots of suspicion arose, and I — I stood by her as long as I could until I couldn`t stand by her anymore. Then we had to leave for our own safety. And I think that we did everything that we could. I mean we – - there was other people who stood by her as long as they could as well, until we just got to the point where the behaviors didn`t match what we thought was going on.

And, yes, those were definitely either goose bumps or just those twinges in the intuition that say, ok, enough is enough. We`re kind of past the point of being reasonable in our support here. We need to take a different path.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I have covered your case from the very start, and what gets me most of all, Kaine, is how your life just turned upside down and really turned into a living nightmare. Could you ever have imagined you would be in a situation where you are now, where your son is my missing and the person you live with, who you thought was your sort of soul mate, turned out to be somebody who, in your opinion, is — well, I`ll quote you, “a master of deception, misdirection,” and really the way you describe her as really sort of evil.

HORMAN: Yes. It`s — there`s a lot of things that we`ve found out or are finding out that were happening during the time that we were together that they`re just shocking. They are. And some of those behaviors, some of those events are, yes, things you don`t even see them coming.

No matter how hard you may look — most normal people don`t go home every day and investigate their spouse. I don`t think many people have that approach when they go home. And I`m one of those people. To have that twist everything around — yes, life is what we will call a new normal after the fact — the fact of him going missing and then us finding out more about her.

Life has definitely taken a different path, but it`s all relative. I — you have to put it in perspective and remember every day what he`s potentially going through right now and it doesn`t matter how much our life goes sideways at this point in time as long as we keep looking for him and bring him home. It`s all that matters and everything else will be whole when he comes back.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m a recovering alcoholic myself with 15-and-a-half years of sobriety. I just want to ask you, you`ve said your estranged wife Terri Horman — soon-to-be ex — was an alcoholic who passed out.

When you look back on it, is there anything that you wish you had done differently in terms of her alleged alcoholism or drinking problem?

HORMAN: Well, she kept it hidden. That`s the hard part. As I look back and see different things that seemed odd and out of place. I asked questions, I did press. I wish I would have maybe pressed a little bit harder. But in looking at the grander picture, it was all hidden.

And it was a gradual progression. I don`t think it was one week she was normal and then one week she was this raging alcoholic. I think it was a slow build-up over time. And when you — you see someone, you see your spouse have a drink once a week, you don`t really ask any question. You see them have a drink twice a week, you probably don`t ask any questions.

When you don`t see them drink any more than that, you probably never ask any questions. But what`s happening behind the scenes, at least in this particular case, is we believe that it was just being hidden through various other forms, and because of the way we had our finances set up and some other things set up where we had things managed separately from each other, there was just not a lot of visibility into any information that would raise concern.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: There`s been talk of a riff between with you and Desiree, Kyron`s biological mom. Any thoughts on that?

HORMAN: You know, we`re all going through — this is hard. This is over five months of the worst emotional strain you`re ever going to experience in your life. And we`re going to be emotional about things, and things will be said, things will be done that are going to be tough.

The one thing, though, is we just can`t lose focus on Kyron and bringing him home. And things like this or these types of things may come up here and there, but they — it doesn`t make him come home any faster. It doesn`t make much of a difference, but I think it`s part of the natural progression of the emotional roller coaster that we`re all going to go through.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You were out handing out flyers at a shopping mall recently. Tell us what happened and why you`re reaching out.

HORMAN: Well, we were at the mall passing out flyers to the businesses and actually at a couple of our different stops the people working there actually didn`t know that Kyron was still missing. So we talked to them about the situation and obviously we`re working with them to get flyers up in their stores or at the counter.

It`s a little bit surprising but in a way it was good to hear because it means we have a lot of work to do still. I know he`s out there and I know he can hear us talking and see us when we`re out there reaching out to him. We`re just going to keep doing that until we bring him home.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

Thank you Sassifrass for posting that.  For me, that answers a lot of the questions/objections that have arisen over the last few weeks.  I really feel for this family, and I hope and pray every day Kyron will come home safely. ::MonkeyAngel::

In thinking about Kaine handing out fliers at the mall, it makes me wonder:

Do they believe Ky is still in Oregon, or is he simply doing what he can to keep people aware?

I go back to, did they check airport security tapes for that day and the days following?  Did they get out there and get his name and photo to all of the airport personnel?  Why was the search kept so local? 

I realize there will be some (maybe a lot) of you that think he has passed and the answers are on Sauvie Island, but until I hear otherwise I am still trying to keep hope alive in my heart. 

Hi Monchichi,
I hope that they are passing out flyers in the state of Washington as well. Anywhere at this point! I too am holding out hope that our little angel Kyron is still with us.

I completely understand why Kaine does not want Terri having unsupervised visitation of Kiara if he truly believes she was involved with Kyron's disappearance. I just don't understand why it had to be such a media circus. I also think that it might benefit Kaine to allow SUPERVISED visitation with a court appointed mediator and himself being present. You know the old saying, "keep your friends close but your enemies closer". I just wish we knew someone who lived in the same town as Terri's parents. I just cannot imagine Terri being locked up in her parents house all of these months. She must be going insane yet she does not APPEAR to be posting anywhere. I cannot believe that she has not snapped yet. Seriously, where could she go? I would imagine that LE is all over anything coming out of that house. She has painted herself into a nice little corner and I just think that it is rediculous. It was always my understanding that the questions that she flunked with regards to the lie detector tests had to do with her timeline. If she went somewhere that she did not want anyone to know about (assuming that it was not related to Kyron) what could be so horrible that she would not just cough it up? Her silence is deafening and it makes it really hard for me to hold out hope that she was not involved.

Exactly.  Anywhere. 

sebastian, I hear what you are saying about Terri's silence and hard to hold up hope that she wasn't involved. It sure looks like she is involved someway, but any good lawyer will tell his/her client not to speak. Some listen to their lawyer, some don't and talk anyway. She is really listening to her lawyer.

I don't believe we know for certain there has not been an indictment. All we know for certain is that nobody has been arrested.  They could have a sealed indictment that hasn't been acted on yet.

Since I'm in such a hateful mood right now, I hate every single being that failed little Kyron and hope the culprit/s gets a swift kick in the azz.

Thank you Klaas.

Where's she going to go without the press hounding her....and then I've read that there have been a lot of death threats, too.  So, I would think it would be best to stay in the house.

Significantly different types of cases, IMO, FWIW.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2009-09-14-women-alcoholism_N.htm

The Secret Lives of Female Alcoholics
Updated 9/15/09

By Elizabeth Weise, USA TODAY
The numbers are troubling: An estimated 17.6 million adults in the USA are either alcoholics or have alcohol problems, according to the National Institutes of Health. By some estimates, one-third of alcoholics are women.

Yet if you were to ask a woman's friends and family if she has a drinking problem, they might very well say no.

When Paula Tokar, 26, told her friends she was getting sober and wouldn't be partying with them anymore, "They said, 'You seemed fine to us,' " says Tokar, now two years sober and living in Marshfield, Mass. That's because she'd worked hard to hide her alcohol abuse. "I was doing the things many women do, hiding drinks around the house, hiding vodka behind the frozen veggie burgers."

When a close friend admitted to Elizabeth Schwarzer she was an alcoholic, "I just couldn't believe it," the Boston mom, 34, says. "I would have sworn up and down that she wasn't much of a drinker." But looking back, there were "all kinds of signs, and I had pretty willfully ignored them."

Kate Sanborn of Abington, Mass., was convinced her drinking was her "little secret, my little world, that I didn't affect anybody." Now five years sober, she says women drinking brings up so many issues for people. "How can you possibly — your kids are always first — how can something else get in the way? But I'm sorry, when you're engulfed in alcoholism, you do things you would never do in any kind of clear mind."

Sanborn drank until she blacked out; later a neighbor said she'd heard Sanborn's infant son screaming all night. "He was right next to me in bed. I didn't even know it."

(More at link)
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http://peoplesinsight.com/articles/7-addictions/26-closet-alcoholic
"Closet Alcoholic"

The one thing no one knows about me is that I have a drinking problem.  I am an alcoholic, I can finally admit it now.  For a long time I was in denial about my drinking.  I have finally come to terms that I indeed have a problem.  I am what someone might call a closet alcoholic.
 
Not even my dear husband knows my secret.  He has no idea what's happening right under his nose. The only time he sees me drink alcohol is on social occasions.  I'm afraid to tell him I have a drinking problem because he'll never look at me the same way again.  I know he loves me but he'll lose respect for me once he finds out.  He's under the impression that I'm the model wife and mother which I certainly am not.

(More at link)
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http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20317293,00.html
Secret Drinking:  A Mother's Struggle
November 2, 2009
People magazine


Emily, 35, says she began relying on alcohol to overcome feeling awkward. The alcohol helped her get through PTA meetings, school festivals and her boys' games. "But eventually, one beer wasn't enough," she says, and she found herself drinking upwards of 16 Bud Light beers a day—alone—and then heading off to cheer on Beau, 14, or Gavin, 9. "All I ever wanted was to be a mom," she says. "I didn't think I was as good as other moms, and being buzzed took that feeling away." Using gum, mouthwash, soap and perfume to mask her drinking, she says, "I was keeping it from everyone." She became an expert at focusing on a situation to "keep myself from being inappropriate." It worked: Emily's then-husband, Clay Denmark, says he never noticed a problem. "I didn't think she was an alcoholic," he says. "She'd have a couple of beers, but it wasn't a big deal."

Mother-of-two Wendy Vrba, 35, also became an expert at hiding her alcohol. She used to pour whiskey into her children's bottles and stash them in the diaper bag. "Whiskey looks like apple juice in a baby bottle," she says. "No one questioned what's in the diaper bag." As her kids got older, she got more creative. She would hide whiskey and cola in thermoses at her sons' hockey games. "I drank at everything from camping trips to sporting events," she says. "I always had gum and perfume with me."

Wendy's then-husband didn't see a problem, she says; her sons Brecken, 16, and Corbin, 13, didn't know about it either—until one day when she passed out while driving them to school. "Their screams woke me up," she says. "I could have killed them." Now sober for almost two years, she recently remarried and volunteers at Alcoholics Anonymous meetings.

Emily reached her low point a year after she and Clay divorced in 2006 (they fought over money and "expectations," Emily says; both agree they wanted different things). She found herself hiding away in her house, slamming beer after beer. "No one was counting," she explains. "To hide it, I started being later to the games or missing events entirely. I'd pass it off as being busy and other moms could relate to that." One night in November 2007 she was driving intoxicated—alone, thankfully—and police pulled her over. Convicted of driving under the influence, Emily served 14 days in jail. That, she says, was a wake-up call: She began attending recovery meetings and says she hasn't had a drink since. Several of her friends and her ex-husband still don't believe she ever had a problem, she says, but for her, "Every day is a struggle. I used alcohol to cope, and now I'm having to learn other skills."

(More at link)
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Hi Titch - why don't you tell us how you REALLY feel?  ::MonkeyCheer4:: j/k
 ::MonkeyDance::Welcome to monkeydom and the cage!

You're right....and we discussed the other day that there is usually a "time limit" on acting upon any indictment...but to my recollection, we were not able to determine what that time limit was be in Oregon. 

Also, does anyone recall when the GJ time ended?  Was it toward the end of October?  TIA

Definately different types of cases.  Doesn't negate that GJ has talked with hundreds of people and still no arrest.  Yes, there may be an indictment that we don't know about, but there has been no arrest.  If there was an indictment, why hold off on the arrest.  Either there's enough for an indictment or there's not.  After all this time, "anybody" involved in this case is aware of the investigation and they might get arrested at any minute. To think that if there's an indictment against Terri and they're holding off on arresting her because the clock would begin ticking - is mixing up stuff - either there's enough for the indictment and it's okay for the clock to start ticking or there's no quite enough for an indictment yet and the clock shouldn't start ticking, so no arrest. 

It's pretty simple.  Even if LE thinks someone else is involved and going after that person and don't want to mess up the opportunity to get that person...IMO..."that person" is aware (more than any of us are aware) that he/she/they might get arrested.  Arresting Terri won't stop arresting others on the radar.  And to say that "other" might run and skip town if LE's hand is shown and Terri's arrested...well...that's LE's job - to keep other under surveillance and to catch them in the act of trying to flee (fleeing = conscious act of guilt).

It's been too long - if there's an indictment, it should be acted upon - and if others are under the radar, then LE needs to continue going after the others.  If there's an indictment or indictments determined, the arrest(s) could bring out the concrete evidence on any others that LE wants. 

I'm no longer enamored in the thought process that GJ for months meeting with hundreds of witnesses has possibly filed and indictment and its under seal waiting on "whatever".  Nope. 

I just spoke with my husband. I asked him, "honey if I was drunk would you be able to tell? If I had slurred speech, passing out on the couch, and was stumbling around, what would you think?" He said, "I would think you had been hitting the cooking wine.".

I have lived with a person that drank everyday. Somedays I could tell he drank more then others. I would know if my husband drank everyday, I would smell it. But think about it, if Kaine was to say, yes I noticed she drank but I didn't consider it to be a big deal, it was at night time and she wasn't driving or anything. What do you think would happen with the custody case of Kiara? I do believe he is playing CYA right now. It is his way to say, she was a drunk but I am not guilty of ignoring it because I didn't know.

Well, IMO, you're husband is right and any other spouse would think the same thing; unless that spouse did care, or was not around, or was participating in the same things or is trying to CYA. 

I watched JVM last night and I've read the transcript here on SM twice ... Kaine said Terri's drinking was a slow gradual thing and Terri kept it hidden (words to that effect)...that's not the first time I've heard him say very similiar words.  However, there's no denying that his filing in court presents a different picture...a visual picture of a drunk with slurred speech, stumbling gait and passing out...not just passed out...but passing-out drunk "several nights a week".  Now...anybody...can pick up on that visual.  In fact..."I believe"....part of the wording in Kaine's court filing was "visibly" - I believe that means that Kaine is telling the court that he could "see with his eyes the state Terri was in". 

If Kaine can assert in a court filing that he can "see" then it's not hidden.  That's why Kaine is getting bashed in every forum I've read in; because posters in different forums are saying that Kaine's speaking out of both sides of his mouth. It is NOT helping Kaine's case for him to do that. 

Yes, we're talking about him a lot.  I know that some don't like that  There's a reason for talking about him so much lately; he's the one in the news.  When Desiree was in the news, we talked about her a lot.  Because Terri is not in the news, we talk about that a lot. So, it's no different to talk about Kaine a lot because he's been in the news a lot; making conflicting statements.  He's still not appealed for the person(s) who took Kyron to bring him home or set him free.  Since Kaine keeps saying that he believe's Kyron is alive and being held somewhere, I keep hoping to hear a plea from him.

Correction:  unless that spouse "didn't" care (not "did")

I would be able to tell just by looking at my husband's eyes, and since I'm very observant I would know he was drinking, and if for some reason I didn't, then I shouldn't be living with him, I don't like being fooled or lied to.

Respectfully, LE is not GJ nor DA's office.  And while I agree with you that it is highly unlikely that an indictment has been handed down, I must respectfully disagree that this issue is "pretty simple."

 ::MonkeyCool:: Note to self:  Tracy and No Rose are much more astute and observant than many thousands of deluded spouses of closet alcoholics all across this country!

(bbm) If I were in Kaine's nightmarish situation, I'm pretty sure that my main concern would be "helping the case" of [1] Kyron, and [2] Kiara.  I would be putting them first and working with LE and my divorce attorney closely.  I would follow their advice and comport myself accordingly.  It appears to me as though Kaine is doing exactly that.

In the same vein, if I were Kaine, I would probably not care too much whether the Internet community were bashing me or not, what their opinions might be of how I should be behaving or proceeding, nor how much they were discussing me; nor whether or not my sincere efforts to protect my children and myself in a horrific situation were "helping my case" with online forum posters ... JMO  I would not want to be in that man's shoes for a million dollars.

Goodnight all, and goodnight Kyron, wherever you are.  May you be found soon.

 ::FlyingFrog::

Add me into that as well. First of all, if I had children in the house, especially an infant, it would be my parental obligation to look out for the other parent. Terri had a DUI in the past, while driving with James. That is child endangerment. I would be keeping a close eye on Terri for that reason alone. On the one hand, it is awful to feel like you are beating up on a parent who has to be going through horrific pain (if in fact he is innocent of anything to do with Kyron's disappearance), but on the other hand, I am sick and tired of these parents covering up the warning signs when their children disappear. Who do we protect? The parents or the children? While I am on a nasty roll, what about brother Kristian? What is going on with him? How did Kaine react when Kristian was found guilty? Was he naturally upset? Did he say or do something to Kristian that may have caused a huge rift? Anyone sick enough to molest a child may be sick enough to do other things that society deems unacceptable, such as kidnapping.

I'm not in a hateful mood, but I will certainly join you in the azz-kicking fest!!  :)

My only question is why have we here made this child's dissappearance a Kaine vs Terri or Kaine vs Desiree deal? 

Huh..if Terri is an alcoholic, who is to blame..Terri is to blame.

If Terri setup the obduction and murder of Kyron..who is to blame...Terri is to blame.

Was their marriage perfect..probably not..does an imperfect marriage lead to the murder of a stepson..not under normal conditions..the murder for hire of a husband..not usually.

Divorce would have been the normal solution..but Terri didn't take that route.
Why..my guess money..for all her bellyaching about paying her way in this world..she didn't want to have to support herself..she wanted it all.

He SAYS she was passsed out drunk a few times a week.
Sometimes at 1 am he would find Kiara up and put her to bed.
Where was he at 8 pm ?
Does this guy sound like he was interested in Kiara and her well being ?  Before this happened?
Oh and he SAYS he was a primary care giver. As he worked at home several days a week.
No one would have expected him to breathalyze her or investigate her, but if he was in the house so much, was he deaf, dumb and blind ?
Wife dislikes him so much, she talks to a LS guy about killing him and he didn't pick up on any clues to her dislke or hate ?
Sounds like he checked out mentally or physically months before this happened.
Terri was the one who emailed Desiree frequently about Kyron, not Kaine.
I am going to say something, don't hit me. Was this " not an option " that Desiree have Kyron to do with child support ? Kaine makes a good wage, seemed to have money for trips and toys ( red Mustang ), etc. If he had to pay child support for Kyron and Kiara and alimony or a settlement to Terri , his lifestyle would not have been the same, would it ?
..
IF Kyron comes back he won't be with Kaine would he ? No court would ever let him have Kyron again.

 ::HelloKitty::

Alcoholism is a family disease for a very good reason.  The roles and denial of all people involved.

Alcoholism is a very complicated disease.

Thank you Desdemona for all that info on female alkies.

I do not feel Kaine's statements are contradictory at all.  I  have listened to and watched people that are alcoholics.

It is amazing the stories that they come up with to deny their illness . Their families believe them. 

Until even the families see that there is a problem.  Sometimes the families never see it.  Quite often the alkie doesn't see the problem.

Very very interesting cunning disease.

I think the AA book says something about being powerless over alcohol, and I think the corresponding Al Anon literature says the same thing.

In my opinion, Kaine cannot have it both ways. Either she was stumbling down junk, slurring her speech, etc. or he did not know she had a problem. Which is it? I hate that he continues to make inconsistent stories. I want to feel compassion for him. Terri had a DUI in the past, while her son James was in the car. Child endangerment! Did he forget about that? Was she spending all his money as he stated in the beginning or did they have seperate accounts as he states now? What about PPD? Is that still true, or is that now out the window and the alcohol has now taken its place. Was he cheating on Desiree with Terri, or does Desiree have it confused? The MFH plot? Was that real, if so why isn't Terri sitting in jail? Do not misunderstand me. I have no compassion at this point for Terri either. The longer she sits at her parents with her mouth closed, the more I feel she was involved to some degree. I just think that there is much more to this story that we have no idea about yet. All I am getting from Terri and Kaine is silence and inconsistencies. It is mind boggling while this innocent little boy is still missing.

My sentiments exactly, while Terri is accountable a marriage takes two and two that are engaged in the day to day activities of their children, wife/husband so accountability cuts both ways..........my responses BBM and ITA. I also agree that is he comes back I think Desiree should have Kyron unless there are some skeletons in her closet we don't know about, but I want Kitty and Ky to have a GAL appointed since he does seem to have checked out a long time ago IMO MOO

Sebastian,  I have been feeling the same way for awhile now.  How can his court documents portray TH as a falling-down drunk, but then he says he didn't see it?  I feel so bad for the entire family, and yes, I do believe that TH knows something, but dammit, why can't everyone just be truthful???

Most toddlers are in bed early...before adults go to bed.  Is it that Kaine was going to bed "before" Kiara?  If not, then how did Kaine know that Kiara was still up at 1:00 in the morning and that Terri was passed out drunk....several times a week.  Did Kaine go to bed before the toddler's bedtime and then get up in the very early morning hours to check out Terri and Kiara?  See....this is hinky.

Having a guardian ad litem appointed is something I believe we will see in at least Kiara's future...for a variety of reasons...mainly that it seems the right thing to do at this point.

Hi Joni,
I hear you about people being truthful! I have always gotten a hinky feeling about ANYONE once I catch them in a lie. I just feel like he spends a lot of time doing damage control for things he says but when he starts talking again, it is a whole new story.

Hi Joni,
I hear you about people being truthful! I have always gotten a hinky feeling about ANYONE once I catch them in a lie. I just feel like he spends a lot of time doing damage control for things he says but when he starts talking again, it is a whole new story.
[/quote]

Exactly Sebastian!

I don't feel that Kaine has any responsibility whatsoever in Kyron's disappearance, but I just haven't liked him from the start.  Don't get me wrong, I HATE what he is going through, but he just seems so calculating.  The stories just don't add up.  When Desiree basically said last week that she just couldn't accept some of his actions, that summed it up for me.

Darn...was trying not to post the entire long post and it came out funny looking...sorry

Yes, Puzzler it is more than hinky for me. If he found Terri passed out drunk several times a week, how is it that he was able to then go off to work in the morning and leave BOTH Kyron and Kiara in her care? Then he has the gall to say that he will not be held hostage? Huh? How about just admitting that either A. Terri was not a raging alcholic or B. Terri was a raging alcholic and he could not be bothered to do anything about it, like protecting his children. I am sorry, but when you leave your child alone with an alcoholic, a drug addict or a physically abusive person, YOU ARE NOT PROTECTING YOUR CHILDREN!

Des...you're right...this issue probably really isn't that simple and maybe I'm a little over-zealous out of frustration with what I "perceive" to be nothing happening.  It's snowing in Oregon, and while that's a small thing...it really bummed me out today thinking about how cold it is and wet (been raining for days, too - I know it's the rainy season there) and wondering where is Kyron.  Then with all the silence from some and the contradictory statements from others, I just wish the adults would get over themselves and focus on the only thing that really matters here - finding Kyron.

I was trying to say that I think if they have enough on Terri, then arrest her...get the ball rolling...that may be the only way she'll start talking about what she knows.  Since I haven't seen an arrest after all this GJ time, the only thing I can take from that is that the DA doesn't think he has enough evidence to get a conviction in court.  That's the kind of simple I meant:  if the evidence is there, arrest her. 

Another frustrating thing is that I was hopeful for a long time that the DA was holding off on arresting Terri due to trying to get information on an accomplice(s) and not wanting to arrest Terri too soon and harm the investigation into anyone else.  I no longer think that way. 

 

Thanksgiving is in two days...wouldn't it be wonderful if a little boy named Kyron Horman got dropped off at a police station or hospital tomorrow, which would give us an incredible amount to be thankful for?  I know it's wishful thinking, but if Kyron IS alive, this is the time of year when whomever is holding him might have second thoughts about what they are doing....and decides to give in and give him up.

I can dream, right?  And hope...there is always hope

This is what is so frustrating Puzzler...IF they had enough evidence, either on Kyron's disappearance or the supposed MFH plot, you would think they'd have arrested someone.  But they haven't.  And there are no rumblings (that we know of), that an arrest is forthcoming anytime soon. 

Exactly Sebastian!

I don't feel that Kaine has any responsibility whatsoever in Kyron's disappearance, but I just haven't liked him from the start.  Don't get me wrong, I HATE what he is going through, but he just seems so calculating.  The stories just don't add up.  When Desiree basically said last week that she just couldn't accept some of his actions, that summed it up for me.
[/quote]

I don't know what I believe anymore with regards to who took little Kyron. The only parent who APPEARS to really be suffering is Desiree. I have no idea what goes on behind closed doors. I guess I have a hard time with both Kaine and Terri because of that old "that is not what I would do in their situation". Sometimes I need to remind myself that everyone is different and reacts to things differently. I am glad that both Desiree and Kaine are still in the media, keeping Kyron's name and face out there. I just wish that Kaine would keep his stories straight. It is hard to explain. I guess I find it insulting. It is almost as if Kaine thinks he can say one thing on minute and another thing another minute and just assume that everyone will lap it up because "he said so." I have not had a warm feeling about Kaine since the very beginning. I cannot help my feelings on that. If Terri were ever to be found innocent of any wrong doing with regards to Kyron, I would still think she is the most selfish woman in the world for staying quiet all this time and only looking out for her own arz when this sweet little boy is missing. JMO

I don't know what I believe anymore with regards to who took little Kyron. The only parent who APPEARS to really be suffering is Desiree. I have no idea what goes on behind closed doors. I guess I have a hard time with both Kaine and Terri because of that old "that is not what I would do in their situation". Sometimes I need to remind myself that everyone is different and reacts to things differently. I am glad that both Desiree and Kaine are still in the media, keeping Kyron's name and face out there. I just wish that Kaine would keep his stories straight. It is hard to explain. I guess I find it insulting. It is almost as if Kaine thinks he can say one thing on minute and another thing another minute and just assume that everyone will lap it up because "he said so." I have not had a warm feeling about Kaine since the very beginning. I cannot help my feelings on that. If Terri were ever to be found innocent of any wrong doing with regards to Kyron, I would still think she is the most selfish woman in the world for staying quiet all this time and only looking out for her own arz when this sweet little boy is missing. JMO
[/quote]

My thoughts EXACTLY!  For quite some time now  ::MonkeyMad::

hellokitty ... I agree with a lot of what you've said in your post. People who drink excessively become very clever in hiding their drinking and making excuses, etc., and those people around them want to believe them and accept what excuses are put forth.  I know this is so.  I agree.

But, once a person progresses to drinking so heavily they're passing out drunk - the abuse is visible - and if a person is passing out drunk several nights a week - the abuse is extreme and that person needs help. 

The more I think about this, the more questions I have (as I've said several times about this case: the more I learn, the more I realize I don't know). 

I can only speak for myself, but if my spouse were drinking to such extremes, I certainly wouldn't leave my little boy and toddler with that person to take care of while I had to go to work...I just couldn't do it.  Red flags!!!

And I've just start to question tonight about why wasn't Kiara in bed before Kaine went to bed?  Was Kaine going to bed so early in the evenings?

Hope..definately..think "Elizabeth Smart".

I read somewhere that Kiara was staying with Kaine's parents. Does anyone know if that is true or have a link to it? Isn't Kristain Horman due to get out of jail or already out? I wonder where he is or will be staying? Hopefully not in the same house with Kiara.

I heard that too, but have no recollection of where - Kaine has a demanding job, and even if he can work from home, he still has to be able to work; certainly cannot take care of a 2 yr old. 

This is an interesting post from BOC.  On Blink's site, the posters have been really looking hard at LE comments and requests with respect to white trucks and where they were parked at the school on the day Kyron went missing. 

http://blinkoncrime.com/2010/11/02/kyron-horman-case-terri-horman-sexts-sent-to-kaine-hormans-phone-what/#comments

enumclawrose says:
November 23, 2010 at 9:24 pm
puzzled says:
November 23, 2010 at 10:15 am

@Rosey … you are so right on this. I was confusing myself by thinking the white truck that was seen by witnesses was #2, but it wasn’t, it clearly was the Horman truck. So why did LE want witnesses to think there was a white truck on access road and that maybe it was the Horman truck? And this is the truck Desiree thinks Ky was seen at. Uh-oh. So, is the 2nd white truck, parked in the back, even involved?
__________________________________________________________________
Here’s what I am wondering, if LE knows there are two white trucks and the locations are #1 Horman truck parked on the shoulder, and #2 other white truck parked in the back lot, then why are they trying to substantiate a truck on the access road?

My best conclusion is that the white truck parked in the back lot was not supposed to be there (ie. in proximity to where they think the abduction occured). So that person tells LE that they were parked on the access road, but LE cannot find anyone else who saw “them?” on that access road, not even GK Dave. Yet LE does find people that did see the white truck in the back lot.

I’m sure LE identifies people that own white trucks that were at the science fair, but it is days after the abduction. The perp could be hiding in plain sight. They know (by witness account) it was a white truck, parked in the back lot, but no one will say they parked in that location. So LE asks where did you park? “Who me? I parked on the access road.”

You are correct - the AA Big Book says that we are powerless over alcohol - but it mentions it only once. The reason I, from personal experience, believe that TH is likely an alcoholic is her behavior. I have never seen her drunk, since I do not know her. But I do know her actions. She is very self centered. She does not seem to take responsibility for her actions. The AA Big Book says "Our actor is self-centered-ego-centric, as people like to call it nowadays." and "Selfishness-self-centeredness! That, we think, is the root of our troubles. Driven by a hundred forms of fear, self-delusion, self-seeking, and self-pity, we step on the toes of our fellows and they retaliate."  My personal opinion is that this fits the public image of TH,

IMO this supports KH claim that TH is an alcoholic (which is very different from a "drinking problem").  No one in my position makes a diagnosis as that is something the person must come to themselves but I do have the ability to spot the traits.

As for KH not doing anything about the drinking - I am not surprised. KH was likely overwhelmed by the problem. It is extreamly common for spouses/family of the alcoholic to just try to not make waves. They hope against hope the promises of the alcoholic that they will stop or change the behavior. Heck, the alcoholic believes that they will be able to change or control the behavior. Until the delusion that they can control or enjoy their drinking, the alcoholic will not make any real efforts at changing.

The long and short of it is that KH may have known he needed to do something different since it was not safe to have TH around the kids BUT he may have still had the flickering hope that TH would change. Most non-alcoholics that have not dealt with an recovered alcoholic have no clue what true powerlessness is. Heck, even my hubby does not get how I could walk into somewhere to get a Diet Coke and end up drunk. No matter how many times I tried, I always ended up drunk. I really did not want to.

I will tell a short story to show how good we are at fooling people - near the end of my drinking, my husband was worried that I had drank so much that I could be in physical danger. He took me to the emergency room of a large local hospital. When he told them his fears, the doctors and nurses told him he was nuts that I was sober. He finally talked them into doing a blood alcohol level. When it came back at .32 (amazing I know!) the doctor ordered it redrawn because he still would not believe I was drunk. If I could fool a group of professionals, it is not impossible that TH was able to fool and delude a lot of people. But this is just my experience and MOO.

From the Big Book:  Alcohol:  CUNNING, BAFFLING, AND POWERFUL

Amen Tol - without help it is too much for us - but there is one who has all power - that one is God - may you find him now.

I have been married more years than I wish to say. My husband would never be creative enough to hide booze in different containers from me. He is not suppose to eat junk food, and after I go to bed that is all he does, and he throws the wrappers in the trash under the sink, he doesn't even bother to hide it from me. So I would know if he was drinking. Now what others know or don't know about their spouse I can't say.

thebozymom  ::MonkeyAngel::    All I'm going to say that if my spouse or boyfriend got a DUI there would be no way my kids or I would be driving with him. It is irresponsible and ignorant. Now what others do in their home and their decisions is their business, but that would be my business and my decisions.

all i have to say is that apparently TH was not hiding her drinking very well if KH saw her passed out, ect.  IF he knew she was passed out from drinking, and not taking care of Kitty, then he knew she was drinking. 

Yes how could you not. Maybe he thought it would get better?

or maybe he just didn't care?  maybe it wasn't even an issue for him until all this happened?  idk.  but sometimes....when a spouse has an issue (such as drinking or drugs or whatever) the other spouse enables them to do so because that is all they 'know' of the person.  and sometime its even easier to 'control' said spouse if you just let them do what they wanna do (and in turn, you get to do what ya wanna do, and life goes on).

I Have No Clue as to if this was the situation.  Just my 2 cents.

Sometimes it is best to shut up and carry on as usual, no doubt. I have no idea what when on in that house or anybodies house for that matter, just pay attention to what is going on in our house. And everybody has different ways they choose to live.

the one thing that struck me as odd was KH's use of 'we' on the JVM interview.  who is 'we'?  him and LE?  him and Desiree? 

I don't know.

i don't either.

::MonkeyEek:: ::MonkeyEek:: Oh WOW, I hope not......and I too heard Kristian was getting out, also heard rumors about KH's dad (course it could have been a lie from Kristian, but it's not unusual for someone who molest children to have been a victim-more the norm than not and I'm not saying every child molested becomes one, but the majority of molesters were victims)......

I would have thought she'd have stayed with Kaine and IIRC doesn't Intel have childcare? I just can't imaging my son disappearing and then letting my only child left stay somewhere else unless it was for safety reasons etc. Also, do his parents live in the same area. I am just curious since I can't recall seeing them anywhere but in some FB photos on Terri's FB ::HelloKitty::

Don't remember reading much at all about Kaine's parents, just his brother.

http://www.kptv.com/news/25902944/detail.html
Horman Divorce Case On Hold Till Jan.
November 23, 2010

ORTLAND, Ore. -- The divorce case between Kaine and Terri Horman will be put on hold until next year.

Court documents filed yesterday show that the judge has decided to delay the case until Jan. 6.

The judge says he understands Kaine Horman is living, “any human’s worst nightmare.” He says that's because of Kaine Horman's missing son, Kyron, as well as other factors.

The judge adds it’s even worse because police told Kaine Horman in June of his wife’s alleged plot to have someone kill him, as well as her alleged involvement in Kyron’s disappearance.

The judge says it is in Kaine Horman’s best interests to move forward now, but it does not benefit the ultimate goal of finding Kyron. He says handling the divorce proceedings now carries the risk of compromising the criminal investigation.

This really is a very complicated situation. I don't think that I remember any case where a child is missing, and a divorce is going on at the same time like this.

That would be extremely frustrating IMO to have to delay it, but mine took 3 yrs and the man I work with had been going thru one for 20 months and the judge delayed it one FULL YEAR ::MonkeyEek:: Needless to say, he was drunk by noon and I have to drive him home from the office, but after learning he had to pay his soon to be ex 20,000 a month and delay it a yr I guess I can understand. So, in the grand scheme of things I can see why it's best to wait, he has no child support to pay, no alimony and they don't live together so for all practical purposes they are completely severed except the legal signature since I don't think he has to worry about the house because her name was never on it, still frustrating .....but, to risk the outcome of the criminal investigation would be worse IMO than having to stall it.

Now my head is spinning wondering where Kitty is??

I agree with you about the DUI. The problem arises that he can not be with her 24/7.  Unless he was willing to take the car away, it would be hard to keep her from driving. I don't know how he could not kick her out or do something else when she was driving - and apparently not very well that she got stopped. All I know, is that I did not live there and have no idea if he is telling the truth about her being passed out or not.  I know this is a time that he may be looking back at every choice to see what he missed. I am sure he probably wishes he did many things differently. Anytime there is a tragedy we all look back at what we missed. I just wish the grownups would stop fighting and someone tell where Kyron is. He is getting lost with all the drama by the grownups in his life . .  .

I have YEARS of experience as an enabler.  If I told you some of the stories my heart allowed my head to "pretend" to believe.  I say "pretend" because I really didn't, my stomach turned, I was hyper vigilant, etc.
I saw things in front of my face that I ignored, denied, or even just hoped would work itself out.  I wanted to believe the excuses, promises, etc.

I have been out of the enabling business for about two years now.  Every few days I remember a situation and get mad at myself, or sick to my stomach that I allowed myself to be used.   Sometimes these people make us so confused we just go into fantasy world.  And as I have said before,  I have been in child protective services for years, including as an investigator...It was only in my own life I could not see the forest for the trees.

The old maxim about the frog;  if you put a frog in boiling water it will jump out.  But if you put it in tepid water then gradually turn up the heat, it will boil to death.


Just thoughts on enabling, not on Kaine or his relationship with Terri.  I have my own opinion about who did what, but it is all speculation on my part.

Terri

There sure are a lot of delays in divorces, it almost seems like they want you to stay married no matter what. Nobody can make you stay married to anyone. Too bad there isn't a fast track to some of these divorces. I'm watching from the sidelines what is happening with a family member and a divorce that seriously is never going to come to a conclusion  ::MonkeyNoNo::

Dear Puzzler,
   Would you elaborate on this please? (If you haven't already, sorry, but am behind in my reading.) 
   In other words:  Why do you think that the DA is holding off on an arrest?
   
TIA,

K. Cat
 ::MonkeyGavel::

I totally agree, Kyron is getting lost with all the drama, just like Haleigh and Caylee in my opinion  ::MonkeyNoNo::

Please correct me if I am wrong but what court documents contain anything about Terri Horman's alcohol issues?  I just looked them over again and don't see anything but I could be wrong, maybe I missed something. 

http://images.bimedia.net/documents/horman-affair.pdf

http://www.koinlocal6.com/media/lib/107/a/9/2/a92b2731-0d99-453a-80b8-3ed80892bf53/Horman_Paperwork.pdf

http://www.koinlocal6.com/media/lib/107/b/6/9/b69f88e8-b5dd-4ee7-a91d-7125fde7b948/SharpNews_koin.com_20101022_165135.pdf

 :smt058 :smt058

Enabling we will go, Enabling we will go, Hi Low Drinky o, Enabling we will go.  Sad I know and I can empathize. 

But key players have not been called before the GJ and that also gives me hope.

Hi Fatcatlurker,
I think that these are the documents.

http://images.bimedia.net/documents/Kaine+October+25+Filing.pdf

Thank you Sebastian I thought I must be missing something. 

Kaine was using a neighbour across the street to care for baby K. Not sure who or what he's using now.  I was told by Kaine's mother that Kaine's parents live in the Seattle area. She told me when I met her at the WOH.

BBM  and with that knowledge, one would think that a parent would make arrangements for someone else to watch Kitty.
Kaine does assert in his filing that Terri was passed-out and Kitty was up walking around. 

So, I'm wondering why Kaine, having seen that happening, would go to bed without first making sure Kiara was safe in bed.  I just don't want to believe that Kaine "knew" that Terri was not looking after a toddler and Kaine went to bed anyway.  I just don't want to believe that...he's smarter than that (or at least I give him credit for being smarter than that). 

Another thought...could it be that Kaine wasn't going to bed before a normal time for a toddler to go to bed.  Is it possible that Kaine was not home?  That he came home so late (1:00 a.m. or whatever the time was - I believe it's in the filing) and found Terri passed out and Kiara still up with no one to watch her.  Kaine says that happened several times a week.  Was Kaine rarely home in the evenings?  If he was gone several times a week until the wee morning hours, where was he?  It wouldn't have been work...he was allowed to do work from home.  Just sayin'.

The more I learn, the more I realize I don't know.

Uh-oh..."if" Kiara is in Washington with the grandparents, I can't see that it would be anything but trouble in court for Kaine in a custody battle ("if" Terri is not arrested, that is).

MB - TY.  The part BBM is what Blink has told us several times.

Hi, Kokos.

Well, for me....in my frustration that no arrest has been made, I allowed my thinking to get caught up in that LE probably isn't arresting Terri yet because they've told us they're looking for another person(s).  So, I went along the trail of thinking that as soon as LE has all the evidence on the other person(s), that LE would arrest both Terri and the other person(s).  The main thing I was thinking was that - oh, LE just doesn't want to arrest Terri and "tip off" or "scare off" any other guilty party(s).  You might say that it was a kind of "enabling" I was giving LE. 

I am no longer enamored in that thought process.  It's no secret that LE is investigating Kyron's disappearance and, therefore, any "guilty party(s)" certainly know LE is trying to get evidence on them for an arrest.  So, in my mind, any party involved in Kyron's case doesn't need for LE to wait to arrest Terri.  I no longer think that LE is "waiting" to arrest Terro while they work on getting more evidence to arrest others.

I think that LE/DA doesn't have enough evidence to arrest Terri on and to make a case against her stick in a court of law. If LE did, she would be arrested the instant the evidence made it possible.   

Kaine has made a number of conflicting statements IMO with respect to Terri; however, there is one statement that I've heard Kaine say more than once that I do believe:  LE doesn't want to make an arrest too soon, the clock starts ticking at the point of arrest and they want to have enough evidence to make their arrest carry through to conviction in court.

In other words...IMO...it means LE doesn't have the evidence to secure a conviction against Terri.  I have to put aside my frustration and "accept" that as one of the few "facts" we actually do know.  If LE could arrest Terri, IMO, they'd do it in a heartbeat!!  They'd also keep on looking for evidence against any other party(s) that they may suspicion. 

idk.  he also stated in the divorce docs. that he worked from home 3-5 days a week, so i am assuming that he was there at night as well.  so that just leaves me to believe that he sat there and watched her get trashed every night.

To clarify that last paragraph: If LE could arrest Terri "and the DA make a case stick against her in court", IMO, they'd do it in a heartbeat!

Also, one more item - everytime I hear Kaine say that LE doesn't want to make an arrest too soon, because the clock starts ticking - I have always "heard" that to mean arrest "Terri" .  However....I don't believe I've actually every heard the words "arrest Terri" ....but don't want to make "an arrest" too soon. 

The hardest thing for me is to not "assume" that things I hear/read are what I'm thinking in my head; it's hard for me to keep looking at comments from with a neutral view.

Working from home 3-5 days a week reminds me of the day Kyron went missing: Kaine went to work for a number of hours and then came home and went upstairs to work from home.  He probably worked some at night, too, but just my way of thinking is that working from home is during the day...co-workers and supervisors, still have access to you during work hours.

Sitting there watching her get trashed...IDK...didn't think of that one.  That would be really bad on so many levels that my head is spinning with the thought of it.  Just today, though, I am wondering if he was away in those evenings and would come home late and find Terri passed-out drunk and Kiara still up.   

 

 ::HelloKitty::

Posters pointed out early on that they felt TH was sleeping on the couch because of the sheets on the couch.  They were so right.

It could be that Kaine went to bed and TH did not. 

The baby was put in bed, and then TH went and got her if she stirred.

Then Kaine would hear the ruckus  and get up and find TH with the baby awake.

As far as the stumbling, etc, she could have said that it was her meds or?  and he believed her until he was helped to put 2 and 2 together.

I bet that there were people around who knew that TH was a drunk.

People who are not enmeshed in the family can spot it loud and clear.

Once TH was out of the picture, I bet they were telling KH all sorts of things about TH.

He connected the dots to make the ugly picture. 

You know the picture where there is a beautiful girl or an ugly witch.

Thank you for this post. I agree 100%. It has clearly gone way off track in the Kyron forum. It doesn't matter what happens in this case, there are some posters who will find a way to blame Kaine for it. He is a grieving, suffering parent of a missing child, and his pain is no less than Desiree's. This bashing of Kaine all the time is just mean, IMHO.

@theboyzmom
WHAT A LADY !!!  What an Honest and Accomplished Lady!!!!!!!!  Congratulations on your sobriety.

My Hubby goes to bed at 7:00pm every night.  He leaves for work at 5:30am.  I stay up until all hours of the night.  I'm usually asleep when he leaves for work.  I start my day no earlier than 9:00am.  The point here isn't to give away my life's idiosyncrasies but rather to say that hubby wouldn't know what I was up to during the time he was asleep.  We've been married 35+ years now and yes, I kept these odd hours and still managed to raise 2 healthy children.  I was always up with them to prepare breakfast and be with them when the bus came at 7:10am.  I could have been drinking or doing anything one could imagine during his sleep time.  I guess that's why I give Kaine the benefit of the doubt when I ponder why TH's drinking to excess went unnoticed until it had advanced to alcoholism.    I imagine he's finding out many things that are very difficult to learn. 

I wish for all Monkeys to have a Blessed Thanksgiving.
God's richest Blessings on both the Young and Horman families.
Bless and guide all who search for Sweet Kyron.

PJ :flower:

I think that we should be able to express our thoughts without being called "mean". It is his words that make me not trust him, no one elses but his.

I don't recall reading that any one poster has blamed Kaine for Kyron going missing (correct me if I'm wrong).

But in talking about what kind of homelife Kyron was living in, yes, there are questions - IMO - and the questions have come up because of Kaine's own words (like Sebastain said). 

Kaine is the one recently, because Kaine is the one talking recently.  I'm sure if Desiree goes on TV next week, we'll all be talking about Desiree. 

If DeDe shows her face in public, I'm sure posters will be talking about that, too. 

We've gone over every word anyone else in the case has said - why wouldn't we go over all of Kaine's words, too?

I think it also makes it worse following Caylee Anthony, Haleigh Cummings, and now Zahra.  All of these parents are clearly not worthy of any sympathy what so ever.  I thought Ed Smart did it for the longest time.  I still think the Benets were involved.  And I know the Van Dams and Mark Lunsford were dragged thru the mud.  As bad as it sounds it happens.  Just walk away, breath,  and come back for Kyron. 

Kaine is doing exactly what he needs to do for Kyron and Kiara right now.  JMO.

Well Deedle is posting on her page right now...hee hee.

Oh geez, Deedle has her own page. Please do tell! I HAVE to check out that nonsense!

Just Joking...ha ha ha.

Are you kidding there's like 10 facebook pages regarding this case and they are constantly doing battle with each other. 

If and when anyone here needs a laugh look them up.  There's even a page for Past/present supporters. 

Dang it! I was hoping for something out of her mouth! I have heard there are those that thinks she runs one of the Terri Horman facebook pages. I am just not sure which one.

Deedle Dee and Deedle Dumb! LOL!

Sorry - not that this is funny at all.  It's just when it gets heavy I need some laughs to restore my faith that this to will end and Kyron will have his day.  He will have his justice one way or another.

LOL! Sometimes when I have insomnia I read their pages. They crack me up! Illiteracy at its worst, lol!

Sometimes you just have to take a deep breath and enjoy some silly. ::MonkeyDevil:: Otherwise these cases can really wear you down!

She has posted on her own but not recently and Terri's has gone kind of underground but the Anti TH page rolls daily and today someone went on as Admin w/the initials of DS and some assumed you know what - so the THSP put out a PSA about impersonating a public figure.  Deedle - public figure - snort, snicker, snort.  And impersonation thru two letters in the alphabet - anyway it was very funny imo.  BTW the new Admin on the Anti page swears her initials really are DS.  Ha Ha.

Deedle a public figure, LOL! Those facebook supporters are too too much! I think they just like attaching themselves to her because it somehow makes them feel special. I did see somewhere on one of those pages where they seemed to be talking in code. Did you see that? References to Mario on the stove? Huh?

No but I've seen some strange tweets talked about some think it's about pot.  Who knows?  It takes all kinds as far as the Anti's and Supporters but in the meantime when it gets ugly or discouraging I know where to go.

I've read one of them on the anti pg is the friend TH was supposed to be visiting the weekend after Kyron went missing so it's interesting to know some of them may be for real.  I'm just sucking up whatever tidbits they may offer also. 

Not only did he not take the car away, he bought a red Mustang for her! This is not exactly the gift you give to someone who is passing out drunk at night.Talk about rewarding bad behavior. Kyron deserved so much more from the adults in his life. ::MonkeyNoNo::

FCL - oh, no...really? hee,hee

I guess you mean FB (I don't "do" FB, but I can't imagine she's going to say much that we haven't already heard).  But, just in case Miss Deedle does share anything of interest, please keep us posted.

Totally understand.

Here is the link with what appears to be some sort of coded messages. It went over my head. Anyone care to decipher? I am going to be up half the night. I cannot wait to start cooking in the morning! Love love love the holidays and am so thankful for my family!

http://www.facebook.com/#!/permalink.php?story_fbid=133120406741393&id=114386168614817 (http://www.facebook.com/#!/permalink.php?story_fbid=133120406741393&id=114386168614817)

It just looks like references to mario bro's and spider man characters to me but I do recognize some of the posters - el - reported to be the wicked nobuddy on ol is the most notable to me, some others I think also post on thsp and dssp.

Good night all you night owls.  Have a happy happy Turkey Day! 

Agreed. I guess some people take drunk driving more serious than others, that is my only conclusion. But when you have lost someone who was a friend or family member from a drunk driver, you take this extremely serious. And there is no reason in the world to drink and drive and there never will be.

HAPPY THANKSGIVING to all the wonder monkeys!!

Oh, my...of course I mean:  "wonderful" monkeys!

::MonkeyHaHa::  Happy Thanksgiving   ::MonkeyAngel::

 ::HelloKitty::

they say that there are 2 outcomes from alcoholism-insanity or death.

The reason people drive drunk is because they have no judgment.

They think that they have control and are smarter than everyone else.  They are "insane".  It's all part of that denial.  I's all part of the crazy disease called "alcoholism".   

It sounds like some people on here have never ever seen an alcoholic, which astounds me. 

There appears to be no way to explain the insanity of alcoholism if one has not seen it in action .  People have made noble efforts on here to explain it, but it just isn't working.  Oh well.  Of course, it manifests itslef in different ways, but I think the arrogance seems to be consistent.

I am not arrogant, I am very familiar with alcoholism. And I also lost a friend while she was riding a bike, she got hit by a drunk driver and was instantly killed. I will never listen to apologists when it comes to driving drunk, never  ::MonkeyNoNo:: And if you have a member of your family that is an alcoholic don't let them drive anybody around, themselves, kids or anybody.

Happy Thanksgiving Simians!! Everyone stay safe, there's a lot of morons on the road!!

There is a third possible outcome:  become a recovering alcholic...people do it everyday.  I've seen it happen.

You cannot explain what people do while an alcholic because the ONLY thing they consider is where/how to get the next drink.

That's why it's considered an illness and why if you love someone and know they're in that condition, you should at least try to get them help.  Of course, only an alcoholic themselves can change if they want...but in their state...they don't think of recovery, the think of the next drink...that's why they need help.

as it stands i don't even know if TH really had a drinking problem or not.  Just 'cause KH said she did in divorce docs. does not make it so.  i know that at one time she had a dwi, and that was in 2005.  that is all i know (on record) of her drinking problem.

True, so what do we really know? A DUI in 2005 that is the only thing verified that I'm aware of.

Alcoholisim: Imagine someone standing in front of an on coming truck-everyday.
Enabling: When you see someone standing in front of an on coming truck and you push them out of the way and you get hit instead.

I've booked in people who couldn't even sit in a chair who were DUI. I've seen people dead from alcohol poisoning.
Be safe, don't be a statistic. Drink responsibly.

I have seen an alcoholic up close and personal. An in-law. I have seen what the alcoholism did to his kids. I have seen the enabling that went on for years and years from his wife. I am well aware that alcholics are sick. I am also well aware that when you bring a child into this world, it is your job to protect them at all costs. When you leave your child alone with an alcoholic you are not protecting them. I am not a perfect person. I have made many many mistakes in my life. I am also the first one to forgive those that have made mistakes. I just will not give a parent a pass when it comes to allowing an alcholic spouse to be alone with their child when they have OBVIOUSLY already figured out the problem. If that makes me "arrogant" than I think I am in really good company. NoRosecoloredglasses comes to mind. Love love love NoRosecoloredglasses!

Monkey King, I always love your posts! You rock! Happy Thanksgiving to everyone!

::MonkeyAngel::  I hope everyone has a safe Thanksgiving.

::MonkeyAngel::  Thank-you sebastian, I'm in really good company as well.

BBM I think HK was referring tho the arrogance of the alcoholic...

My brother is an alcoholic and has been for close to 20 yrs, even when I knew something wasn't right with his actions and wasn't aware it was alcohol, I still made sure he was never around my kids by himself and even when he was I made sure it was a highly controlled enviroment since I was able to clue in to "Whatever" it was......then I found out around the time my daghter was born (19 yrs ago) and to this day he has never nor will ever have any of my kids in his car, just too big of a risk for an accident - not that I think he'd do anything to my kids intentionally, but I was unwilling to go risk it. Last yr he even drove into my house when he was here for a visit, of course he denied he was drunk, but when I saw his car he had already hit something as there was a scratch down the entire right side of the car and his mirror was missing, I called the cops and they put him in jail and then the judge allowed us to have some input and we decided he should be in a residential re-hab. Granted that doesn't mean he will never drink again, so he still isn't allowed to be around my kids alone and again will NEVER have them in his car, so for 19 yrs I have stood by this. Hats off to each and every one who has beat this disease, it's hard as hell to do and you are amazing in my eyes to have come so far and accomplished so much and I also know it's a fight everyday ::MonkeyAngel::

God Bless Kyron, wishing you were with your mother, father and family today and praying that there will be a miracle and you will be with them at Christmas.

Happy Thanksgiving to all the wonderful monkeys, mods and admin.......you do a hell of a job to keep SM the best of the best  ::HelloKitty::

Excellent point, divorces under almost every circumstance nasty and a he said/she said   ::MonkeyNoNo:: and I have seen a huge percentage of divorce proceeding and filings that are simply an attempt at character assasination (mine was too, problem was my ex couldn't prove ANYTHING he had filed and was destroyed on the stand and I could thru numerous witnesses )

IM   ::MonkeyAngel::  Alcoholism and drug addiction are both very hard to overcome, to all that have been able too, you are very brave and determined people. I really believe there are just some people no matter what help they get just can't overcome it. I do hope your brother is able to, and totally understand why you wouldn't want your children driving with him. Hope you and your family are having a wonderful Thanksgiving.

Happy Thanksgiving!  ~  Yes, ITA, alcoholism is a disease.  People suffering from him need help.  Their family and loved ones can also benefit from Al-anon, which is a life saving program as is AA.

Thanks for your posts answering my question, Puzzler!  I bizzy burning dinner, so will have to wait until after I put out the fire to read them in detail.  Looking forward to it.

Cheers, Monkeys... 

 ::monkeywine2::  <---- PS, I'm toasting with sparkling cider!  (Been there, done that drinking thing... many years of recovery now, thank God.) 

Koko's Cat

Ooops above post should read, "People suffering from IT, (NOT "him")   ::MonkeyDevil::
Sheesh.  Weird mistake, there....
I'll have another, cider, please!
 ::monkeywine2::

 

Thank you so much for that quote....as a recovering enabler that quote is going in several places in my home.  I love it. 

My "enabling of choice" is crack addicts.  I think I have been hit by that truck more than once.   ::MonkeyNoNo::    ::MonkeyJnBox::

I love to read Seamus O'Riley and just checked and noticed two recent articles on Ky:

http://seamusoriley.blogspot.com/2010/11/kyron-desiree-versus-kaine.html

There is a great deal of guilt from both Desiree and Kaine regarding Kyron's disappearance.

Early on, we did not analyze all of Desiree's letters; the guilt was too much.

Desiree left Kaine, at a very young age, in order to seek undisclosed medical treatment. She can reason within herself that if she had not done so, he would be alive today. Why didn't she bring him back to her after the treatment? Why does she need to withhold the treatment? Although everyone is entitled to medical privacy, by even telling the press that she left him, she raised the question of treatment herself.

Kaine alleged some powerful things against Terri Horman in court; yet, if he knew about her substance abuse and instability, why did he not keep Kyron safe with his mother?

Desiree was shown emails that Terri Horman sent in the days after Kyron went missing. This was just last week that police revealed them to her.

She is now speaking against Kaine.

She has now concluded that Terri Horman hated Kyron and blamed him for the destruction of her marriage. The natural question in Desiree's mind:

How is it that Kaine didn't take steps to protect her son from the raging step mother?

As this rift continues, it may get a lot worse. Guilt is a powerful force, and both parents have enough to go around.

Had Desiree not left her son with them, he would be alive.
Had Kaine reacted to Kyron's acting out or reacted to complaints by Kyron about his drunken step mother, and allowed him to live with Desiree, he would be alive today.

They are both in a no-win situation which, if justice is not found for Kyron, is going to spiral out of control.

It could lead to...

Below is an article from Oregonlive.com with quotes in italics and Statement Analysis in bold type. We will continue to view the statements of both parents and any breaking developments.

<snipped>  Great comments also on this one

http://seamusoriley.blogspot.com/2010/11/kyron-no-answers-for-thanksgiving.html

 This Blog Linked From Here Links
This Blog     
Linked From Here     
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Wednesday, November 24, 2010
Kyron: No Answers for Thanksgiving

As Thanksgiving is upon us, Desiree Young and Kaine Horman face the Holidays with the painful unknown regarding Kyron's disappearance. It is the coldest November in 25 years in Oregon which must weigh heavily upon Desiree's heart, knowing that Terri Horman still refuses to allow Desiree to give a proper burial to the son she could not save from the cruelty of narcissistic hatred as his remains are left exposed to the old.

Sauvie Island and the surrounding waters continue to remain thef ocus for searchers as both cell phone pings and a local witness placed Terri Horman there June 4th, in the time between schoolband noon.

One witness saw Terri Horman and said:

"I think the thing that seems odd about it perhaps is that we were just passing each other by and in a few seconds, with her daughter being sick in her arms, made a point to show me the picture."

The picture was vital to Horman's planning and attempt to build an alibi.

The press may begin focusing more on the now public rift between ex spouses.

As the weeks have turned into months, the anger within Desiree has burned even hotter. She is left bereft of her son, and has only time in which, likely unable to gain quality sleep, is spent in going over every detail of Kyron's life; in particular, everything that he said about his step mother. Each complaint, each sad look upon his face, each time she may have dismissed him saying, "just be a good boy for her..." has got to come back and haunt Desiree.

<snipped>

Koko's Cat and Terri  ::MonkeyAngel:: and hope you are having a good Thanksgiving.  Thanks IM for that article, I like reading what he has to say.

Thanks NRCG  ::MonkeyAngel:: ITA it is so difficult to overcome and that's why I have such admiration for TBM, sadly I do NOT think my brother will overcome it, he was enabled by friends and even my dad for way too long and it breaks my heart to see someone who is so smart and had so much going for him with nothing to call his own at 41 yrs old, a nomad in reality going from place to place (where anyone will still have him   ::MonkeyNoNo:: ) no home, a car that is 15 yrs old and barely functional, not a dime to his name, no wife, children etc., and then to see the pain in my father's eyes knowing he will probably never make it. In fact he was last living in my parents home in TN while they are here and a "friend" brought him a 5th of Jack, he drank it all and started calling here and sounded suicidal so my 74 yr old dad had to jump in his car and drive 10 hours to check on him, buy groceries for him, but thankfully he gave him no money (now if we could get his friends to stop giving him alcohol)......and dad knows one day he'll be gone and who is going to do this?? I am only very determined because my kids are my #1 priority and always have been, always will. I know there are many unknown evils in our world that I can only do my best to warn them of, but Idamn sure can protect them from the known evil and I will until the day I die and I'm sure you and everyone on SM would do the same, we have seen too many cases and know about the known/unknown evils so I think this makes us all more vigilant. We are having a wonderful Thanksgiving, just came in from the beach and ppl are swimming it's so hot ::MonkeyHaHa:: I pray you and your family are also having a wonderful Thanksgiving and since we share members of our family that are serving our country I want to say I wish all out armed service members here and abroad a very happy Thanksgiving and thank them for their service, they are true heros ::MonkeyAngel::

I keep wondering (and I've asked the question, too) that if Kaine were asked in court to "prove" all those assertions he made about Terrin in his sworn affidavit he filed with the court - how would he go about "proving" that Terri was a passed-out drunk several nights a week.

One more thing I wanted to say before I forget (since my brain is fried from work) is, I wonder if it's a possibility that Terri sent James away because he noticed her alcoholism, passing out drunk on the couch, slurred speech and staggering gait.......sometimes kids are more in tuned than adults and pick up one specific behavoirs, even slight changes......I know my son knows ASAP if something is bothering me or I am keeping something from him. Just throught I'd toss it out there, and prolly not the case, but I can see it as he could have confronted her and she knew it was true and promised to do better (knowing she prolly wouldn't be able to IF she is an acoholic), and sent him away to avoid her son seeing her as a lush ::MonkeyTongue::

I don't think he could IMO, unless James knows........otherwise it is a he said/she said which is pretty much what divorce allegations turn out to be, I know mine was but I was able to get my POS hubby's medical records even with the strict HIPPA laws and prove he was abusing RX, I also never let him drive with our son and when he was on his court approved visits, I made sure my oldest 2 stepsons were also there and never left him alone in the apt with our son or let him drive and they did.........sadly, they never thought that he was abuse him sexually when everyone was asleep and I thenk God I listened to my son's cues even though he was only 3 1/2 and the first time he told me he didn't want to go to dad's apt because he was scared I never let him go, then he disclosed the molestation and I was bound and determined he'd never lay eyes on him again and 7 1/2 yrs later he hasn't. We were very blessed to have a strong GAL in my son's case and the courts knew he wasn't a gun for hire, so when he testified to the judge we got an injunction that minute from Ave's dad seeing him, and then yrs later when the divorce was final, the judge cut off all parental rights, so I think more than anything and especially in blended families parents should listen to their children about their fears and anxiety and not chalk it off to normal behavoir, if I had done that my son would have been a victim over and over and over, instead of twice, because even twice did so much damage to him I wasn't certain he would ever be normal again and until we moved here he wasn't, now he feels safe and id thriving, granted there will be times thru his life when he is going to have issues ties to what this animal POS excuse for a human did to him, but we will address it as it happens and continue with therapy so he can continue on his path of moving on and become a very productive man........so far he's a hell of a kid, gifted and reads on a college level, but even his teachers tell me he's the most compassionate child they have seen and expect great things (I can't take credit for how he turned out, he was born this way) and I thank God every day for all my blessings, in that respect I am a very wealthy woman ::MonkeyAngel::

Another VERY interesting post from Seamus and it seems he is indicating what we are about skeletons in the closet:

http://seamusoriley.blogspot.com/2010/07/latest-statement-from-kyrons-family.html

 Monday, July 19, 2010
Latest Statement from Kyron's Family


The adorable toothy smile continues to burn into the hearts of America.

This is the latest statement from Kyron's family.

I remain concerned that the family skeletons will continue to come out and be devoured in media. I also recognize that these statements, as well as the interviews, are in controlled environments where the family has maintained some degree of authority over media, including having some press kept out.Kaine and Desiree likely are concerned about media but continue to make attempts to keep Kyron's name and face in the news, even at the personal cost of public humiliation.

 

Kaine and Desiree's main priority remains keeping their energy and available time focused on assisting investigators in the search for Kyron. Kaine and Kiara have returned home (and) are getting settled back into the house. Kaine is spending time getting the house ready so that Kyron has a comfortable and safe home to return to. The family sends their deepest gratitude for your support and thanks everyone who is keeping an eye out for Kyron

Kaine and Desiree's

Kaine and Desiree. Tony is absent from this statement. It is delivered in the 3rd person which means it may not be from them but from someone else about them. This reduces commitment overall.


main priority


This means that Kaine and Desiree have at least one other priority. Normally, fathers of slain children will acknowledge death before mothers. There may be a priority in finding justice for Kyron in the mind of Kaine, more than in Desiree's mind. We have seen recent statements from Kaine that show fading hope in Kyron being found alive.

remains keeping their energy and available time

Time is being reduced as it is now "available" time. This may be on Kaine's part as he is putting the house back in order. It has been suggested by commentators here that one of Kaine's goals would have been to have CSI search the home exhaustively for clues. Kaine and Desiree may also be struggling with "energy" as their suspicions against Terri have increased and the anger builds. They need to be "focused" on what normally would need no guidance: focus to find Kyron. Here, however, they have a need to "focus". The only distractions that Kaine and Desiree may experience are their feelings about Terri's involvement, as they have been revisiting every tiny and minute detail that may have indicated that something, indeed, was wrong in that household. People wonder how a man would not know that there is a problem in the home that his wife has gone as far as contact someone to kill the husband. I wonder, as well, what Kaine's focus was during that period of time.

focused on assisting investigators in the search for Kyron.

Kaine and Desiree are "assisting" investigators; not searching for Kyron. The investigators are involved "in the search". I think this is a significant difference as we have watched language shift, over the past 6 weeks, sadly, to include "investigators" more than "searchers".


Kaine and Kiara have returned home (and) are getting settled back into the house.

note "returned" and "settled". They were once there, and when they left, they were not settled but unsettled. This is sensitive as a child as young as Kiara would experience quite a change in life and routine, not only not seeing her mother, but not having her familiar surroundings; including not seeing her brother.

Kaine is spending time getting the house ready so that Kyron has a comfortable and safe home to return to.

comfort comes before safety in their minds. This is very sad. Had the family been expecting a kidnapped child to return, safety would be not only mentioned first, but with stronger sentiment and additional words. It is a hope that is like a light which is slowly and steadily fading. This is sad.


The family sends their deepest gratitude for your support and thanks everyone who is keeping an eye out for Kyron

Notice the verb tense: "sends" and "thanks". There are many ways in which people express these sentiments; often we may see that the family "would like" to thank... This is not the same as saying "the family thanks" only that the family "would like" to thank. The latter is stronger. I may want to apologize but it is not the same as apologizing. I may want to thank someone, but it is stronger to actually go ahead and thank them. This is what Kaine and Desiree do.

The verb tense (present tense) shows a strong and sensitive commitment to the gratitude with "deepest" showing even more sensitivity.

Kaine and Desiree feel a deep, abiding (current) gratitude towards the community, which is sincerely expressed here in the present tense. My guess is that they have, together, had conversations about how many people care about Kyron, how many comments have followed articles, and how they have likely been contacted all across our country from well wishers and people of good will. This is a strong expression of thankfulness; so strong, in fact, that it suggests what follows:

Yet, the sadness creeps in once again.

"keep an eye out" for Kyron is not close to "searching" for Kyron.

The reality that this is not going to end well is stronger with each statement released from the family.

Thanks IM for that article

WOW~I don't know how I missed all these, his analysis seem to be spot on IMO, including the fact that Kaine had a feeling that Ky was "gone" (sorry I hate to use the other word IYKWIM) before Desiree, and most of that is in his post about readying the house for Kitty ::MonkeyTears:: IMO again I think he knew that Terri hated Ky so he knew the ultimate horror was most likely the case instead of being stashed somewhere and Desiree never had this knowledge so she continued to believe there was a chance .....m heart aches for not only  what ultimately happened to Ky, but the evil he endured in his own home such as being banned to his room for stupid things that really are just part of a kid being a kid, I so pray I am wrong but don't think so and that infuriates me to have to accept his life in that house was not that of a normal happy child, but a child walking on eggshells prooly trying to pls his stepmom when in reality nothing he could do, including being the perfect child would have changed her (Terri's) feeling towards Ky  ::MonkeyMad::

http://seamusoriley.blogspot.com/2010/07/kyron-latest-family-statement.html

Our focus continues to be fully on the investigation and finding Kyron. All indications are that law enforcement obligations will be heavy in the coming week. As a result, we are sorry that we cannot schedule any media meetings. We really apologize for the change but, as always, our priority is keeping our energy and available time focused on the search and both of those things will be in short supply this week. We will keep you updated immediately on any changes. If any breaking events do come up we will schedule a Q&A or interview session accordingly. Thanks for your understanding. We are currently planning on holding sessions the following week (July 19th and July 22nd) as events progress. Thank you for everything you have done, Kaine & Desiree

A conciliatory and sensitive message (note: fully, really) message to preempt news seeking that may be uncomfortable for both Kaine and Desiree.

Note not only the sensitivity, but also that Kaine and Desiree are telling us that "both" "energy" and available "time" will be in "short supply" when? Answer: this week.

Have police informed them that a break, or an arrest is imminent? Is the convening of a Grand Jury something considered in order to compel Terri Horman to tell what she knows?

We wait to find out.

The focus of the letter appears to reveal a desire by Kaine and Desiree to get media out of the private lives of those involved, and back to Kyron. I don't expect much success in this.

This may have been what the family sought to avoid early on in the disappearance; therefore the reluctance to be before the cameras. We live in a new society where information travels faster than ever before. Media, once news orientated, now rushes to the salacious, which was once reserved for gossip pages.

Yet, Kaine and Desiree made the choice of trading away their dignity in order to keep Kyron's face in the news. The price is going up.


As I've commented previously, there have been indicators that Kaine was withholding information that is likely related to things that will embarrass him; in particular, about his marriage.
For instance, his description of the last time he saw Kyron alive (the morning of June 4) indicates tension, perhaps between Kyron and Terri, where he tried to keep things peaceful. It would appear that the tension was related to feeding the cat, the science project, and perhaps, lateness. We've also seen "noise" as a repeated theme throughout the statements, which may suggest as the bitterness towards Terri rises to the surface, the parents are defending a 7 year old boy's natural tendency to make noise. It is what kids do.

We now learn that Terri was, perhaps, having at least one affair and in response to this, she may have friends leak out information about Kaine that will embarrass him.    ::MonkeyNoNo:: BIATCH!!!!!!!!!
With multiple affairs we may see a defense strategy emerge linking depression and the affairs (post-partum) and claims that Kaine ignored warning signs of danger and refused to get her help (or cooperate) as part of a larger picture. Defense attorneys can say anything, without fear of repercussion; whether it is true or not. I would not be surprised to hear blame thrown Kaine's way. But we will have to wait until Terri's attorney takes to the airways to have anything to analyze.

As we have seen before:

If Kaine is withholding information, it's sensitivity is not linked to Kyron's disappearance, but likely to 'dirty laundry' secrets in this family. Every home has skeletons in the closet; but with the disappearance of Kyron, we will likely hear that some of these skeletons not only directly impacted Kyron's quality of life, but may have contributed to his disappearance.
Media will continue to dig.



 http://seamusoriley.blogspot.com/2010/07/lying-and-murder-theme-continued-in.html




Sunday, July 11, 2010
Lying as Theme Continued in Kyron case

As readers here know well when studying the case of Casey Anthony, lying and murder are close cousins in spite of Cindy Anthony's assertion to the contrary. (Cindy Anthony said "Casey may have had a few misspokes, but that doesn't make someone a murderer".

A true liar, one who fabricates reality, is rare in society. Most people simply withhold information and deceive by default. Few will openly fabricate "reality" as it is stressful upon the body. When you meet a "true liar", you may sadly learn that you do not know what they are capable of doing.

A true liar is capable of perjury in a capital case.

----------------------------------------------------------------

In the case of missing 7 year old Kyron Horman, news was in short supply this weekend.

When news is in short supply, media sometimes grasps.

One report was that Virginia police were looking for Kyron there. As the article proceeds, it isn't about Kyron Horman.

Another article also came out, with direct quotes from Desiree Young, Kyron Horman's mother.

 The burning anger we have seen in previous analysis is now evidenced in the fact that Desiree is repeating conversations, in her head, that she had with Terri Horman, and it is tearing at her heart.

Shortly after her son, Kyron Horman, disappeared June 4, most of the missing 7-year-old’s family was in shock. There was one notable exception, Young says — Kyron’s stepmom, Terri Moulton Horman.

“She’s talking about her hair that she just got done, and they put highlights in, it turned out a little too orange,” Young recalled in a tape-recorded interview with WW Thursday evening. “I can’t get up every morning, put on my makeup or function even remotely normally, and she’s talking about going and getting her hair done.”  ME: ITA, I couldn't even manage to shower so this is odd that Terri would even be worried about her hair and normal that Desiree can't function normally and sees how odd and strange it is that anyone would even notice or care when a child is gone [/color]

Desiree compares herself to Terri. This has been a continual theme and given the circumstances where Desiree gave up Kyron as she sought medical treatment when he was young. This will trigger guilt for any parent, but with a missing child, it is likely immeasurable.

Terri Horman’s attorney, Stephen Houze, has told reporters neither he nor his client will comment on the case.

Young says she suspected Terri Horman may have been involved in Kyron’s disappearance from the moment the stepmom called her to tell her the boy was missing. And Horman’s behavior after the disappearance heightened those suspicions.

“Every single day, we’d wake up, we’d gather up, and we’d just go and start doing stuff (to help find Kyron). And she was always just kind of behind,” says Kyron’s father Kaine Horman, who also sat for the WW interview. “It wasn’t about, ‘what can we do?’ It’s about, ‘what’s being done to me, or what about me?’ It was just kind of more centered around her.”


"Every single day, we’d wake up, we’d gather up, and we’d just go and start doing stuff. " And she was always just kind of behind


Note, this is a similar description he gave of Terri going to the bus stop to meet Kyron who would normally have gotten off it. He noted that he put on his daughter's shoes and Terri lagged behind but caught up. Now, he is addressing the early days, shortly after June 4 when he went missing, when the two families would begin each day to find ways to search for Kyron. Kaine uses "we" plural and "gather up" could be regarding the 19 month old daughter's belongings, or it could be the "gathering up" of thoughts on how best to proceed with another day (every single day denotes stress) in searching for Kyron, speaking to police and media. Terri was "always" "kinda" behind; lagging behind, reluctant, and certainly not in the lead. Mentioning that "we wake up" suggests insomnia. "doing stuff" suggests that they did not know what to do or where to begin; in particular, in the early days. By using his description of June 4, I expect that Kaine will reveal suspicions earlier on than he has.
'
I sense from him that he is withholding information. What information? I think it is in regards with his marriage and his suspicions. He may have had an affair or something that Terri Horman's attorney plans to use, along with her post partum depression, as a way to mitigate her involvement and responsibility.  ::MonkeyMad:: ME: PPD my @ss, no excuse or tiny bit of mitigation should be expected, many experience PPD and don't disappear of harm anyone In his interview with Natisha Lance (from Nancy Grace show) he describes the day as not out of the ordinary. I think we will hear more and more that Terri was "hard" on Kyron, rather than outright "abusive" and that she argued with him about school, lateness, feeding the cat, and homework (in particular, the science project) and that this is sensitive to Kaine as it comes close to portraying him as having taken the side of his wife over his son, which would be intensely scrutinized by media at this time. Kaine's body language appears to me to be less straight forward than Desiree's. ME:  ::MonkeyShocked:: I sure hope not, but expect it's prolly the case as when someone has such intense hatred towards someone, the fact they breathe makes them angry and they lash out Kaine Horman filed for divorce and a restraining order against Terri Horman on June 28, saying in court documents he believes she’s behind Kyron’s disappearance and an alleged plot to have Kaine Horman killed. He says she also failed two polygraphs and walked out of a third.


NOTE: It was written "probable cause" in the affidavit which is police language which would mean there is enough evidence to arrest, but there has not been one yet.

Kaine Horman says it was only after Kyron disappeared that he learned the extent of his marital problems.

This is why I believe Kaine is withholding information. We do not have an actual quote so I cannot go into it in detail, but it is hard to believe that they were having marital problems but he wasn't informed of them. I believe the information he is withholding is related to his relationship and his suspicions; not nefarious information regarding Kyron's disappearance.  ME: ITA with this assesment, more relationship issues and behavoiral than nefarious in Ky's disappearance[/color]He says he found out Terri Horman had been complaining to friends behind his back for months about their marriage. But he says she rarely expressed those feelings to him.

“She would basically just internalize it and go to somebody else and go, ‘hey, here’s how I feel, our marriage is having problems,’ and just vent to other people, having this victim mentality of, I want you to see it my way, I want you to side with me,” Kaine Horman says. “But she didn’t ever talk to me about it.”

We first see that he says "basically" which means that she didn't always internalize things; only "basically". This tells us that although it may have been more of a "norm" for her to internalize and tell others, she did externalize and speak to him. We now have a contradiction: If she "didn't ever" talk to him about it, how would he know she has a "victim mentality"? He would not have said "basically" if it was "didn't ever". Kaine fears being portrayed as not a good husband, and is sensitive about care over his children (which is another reason why he says he put his daughter's shoes on before he walked her to the bus stop. If you and your child walked to the bus stop together, would you feel the need to tell me that you first put her shoes on? Likely not, unless it was something you normally didn't do. Kaine is less than forthcoming about his relationship, and about himself as a father. This is a strange family and is anything but normal. Did Terri have any legal authority over Kyron? Did Desiree have custody? Did Kaine have sole or joint custody? When Desiree gave him up to Terri to care for, did she plan to take back custody? ME: This is such a burning question to me and soooooooo many others as I have noticed reading ont he net[/color] With all of these questions, is a mountain of guilt, which sometimes pours out in the statements (see Desiree's open letter to Kyron analysis) It is very sad. Kyron wasn't raised in a normal or healthy home. Did Terri consider her daughter her "real" child? Did Terri undergo personality changes via the use of Testosterone? How much time did she spend at the gym instead of mothering? Now, as Kaine says, is Terri choosing to remain in the house at the expense of the comfort and familiarity of her 19 month old daughter? ME: I have often wondered if the use of steroids even in the past (and I am assuming here as I don't know she did), but do the steroids cause testosterone to build up.......there is a case here, nothing about a missing child or anything nearly as important where we have a nut posting YT vid's daily about the oil spill and his anger, feelings that HE is the only one affected when in reality we had virtually NO oil hit our shores, and those in LA and MS have been devastated and he is a former bodybuilder, his anger and feelings of injustice to him and him ONLY are palpabale and unrealisitic, so if we have anyone who can answer this question, I would greatly appreciate it. TIAI suspect that both Desiree and Kaine are concerned about the digging that media does into the lives of people; however, they have risked that in order to keep Kyron's face in the public. The strange family dynamics may explain why there were sensitive to criticism of NOT being out with media as much early on in the investigation. They have come out, with apparent reluctance, with a clear motive: keep Kyron's face in the public view. This is in stark contrast with the media seeking case of Cindy Anthony, who, not only sought out medias and spoke incessantly, but openly expressed anger over others making money off of the name of Caylee Anthony. She then attempted to trademark Caylee's name for profit.

With the parents of Kyron Horman, we see pain and guilt, shame, embarrassment,  ::MonkeyTears:: etc, but we don't find mercenary-like attempts to exploit the case as we did in the Anthonys, including the scamming of web sites, selling of personal pictures, appearances, etc. ME: Again he is spot on as was are seeing this in Kaine and Desiree, the guilt and shame is prolly the reason for withholding the info  
He also told WW Terri Horman suffered post-partum depression after the birth of their daughter 19 months ago and may have been hiding her condition.

We will likely see this enter the vocabulary of Terri Horman's attorney.

Young and Horman say the full extent of Terri Horman’s deceptions wasn’t clear until after Kyron disappeared, when they and investigators began piecing the picture together in conversations with friends and acquaintances.

But Kaine Horman says he didn’t fully believe his wife could be behind Kyron’s disappearance until he learned about the alleged murder-for-hire plot. The Oregonian has reported Terri Horman offered to pay a landscaper to kill her husband six or seven months ago.

“I have no idea what she’s capable of, because she’s obviously done some horrible things or tried to do some horrible things that took us all by surprise,” Kaine Horman said.

This is strange because Kaine has also said that it was Terri, herself, who told him (and Desiree) that she failed two polygraphs. This is why I believe he is withholding information about things that he and Terri spoke about. He may have lied to himself, at first, therefore, "fully" enters into his statement. When someone says "I have no idea" it usually means that they are withholding information as most people have an idea about everything in life. Sometimes they just need a follow up question and an idea will come but other times a painful question is pushed aside ME: This has always confused me too, why would she even tell this fact as I don't think LE tells family (Although I could be wrong on whether or not someone passed/failed a LDT
Young says Terri Horman was a frequent liar about matters large and small.

“She can’t even tell the truth about her divorce or, you know, how she met Kaine, any of that,” Young says. “Silly little things. Stories about Kyron getting stung by a bee she can’t even tell the truth about.” ME: Did we ever learn for a fact IF Ky was allergic to bee stings, and if so this was so beyond cruel and evil on Terri's part that it is unfathomable IMO........also I wonder if she shared this with Kaine, not sure that has ever been explored or answered She says she suspects Terri Horman was untruthful in the first phone call to Young the day Kyron disappeared.  ::MonkeyMad::
“Sometimes a mother’s instinct can be pretty accurate, but at the same time, (my suspicion) was factual-based,” she says. “I can’t give you details, but some of what she was saying didn’t match up with me. I’m familiar with the school, and I know how the school’s set up, and some of what she’s saying doesn’t make sense to me.”

This is sensitive and sad.

Notice: "a mother's instinct" not her instinct but "a" mother; not a mother in particular, such as Terri or herself. This usage shows distancing from maternal instincts and is a trigger of guilt and pain for Desiree.
"can" means possible
"pretty accurate" is not exact.
She didn't say "my suspicion" . This is an interpretation of what media THOUGHT she said. Statement Analysis does NOT interpret: it listens.

"I can't give you details" : "can't" means that she is limited; either by knowledge, or by law enforcement, etc.

"some of what she said" didn't match up, but not all. Some things did match up.
This is sad: "I’m familiar with the school" because mothers know the schools well and are not just "familiar" which represents distance. This is sad for Desiree and sensitive.

"some of what she’s saying doesn’t make sense to me.”

Some things do make sense, and some things do not; in correlation to the school, science fair and the "good bye" (see prior analysis) that Terri has reported.

I fear more to come before this is over







Sorry for the long post, waiting on the turkey to cool off, and catching up so scroll and roll if these post bother you, but we always look at family dynamics and what could have been done differently that might have possibly changed the outcome of a child's life and personally I don't think there is anything wrong with it, especially if just ONE person learns from reading here and makes a change in the dynamics that saves one life.

My comments in blue, and regarding the withholding of info wrt Kaine, it could be he was only withholding this to the media and Desiree and I pray that's the case, as he could have given the info to LE thus not affecting the investigation any, but nevertheless it angered Desiree and she had every right to know what happened in the home where her child was being raised.

 ::HelloKitty::

Terri does have a longer criminal history with alcohol/drugs that I have posted on here before and I will look for it and post it again.  I have no doubt that she is an alcoholic.

I think Kaine has realized after the fact what Terri's issues were.  I think he figured out that she was drunk rather than tired or whatever in the heck he thought or she told him it was.

Why was she sleeping on the couch?  That is very strange to me and it appears that it has been since Christmas, or is that when things were bad and Kaine said they had discussed things and thought that the issues were better or resolved?

They looked like such a fun family with their snugglies at Christmas time. 

I hear people saying that they would not leave their child with a drunk.  But I have a job that involves dealing with people with all kinds of issues, and I have seen the denial in professional women who have their own incomes.  Yet they stay with a man that is an abuser or an alcoholic or a serious philanderer.  It's all about relationships and what the needs are of those individuals.  They are getting their perceived needs met. 

I pray none of my children every becomes a drug or alcohol addict.  It would be so hard to let them live on the streets and suffer horrible consequences. I can see why parents enable them in spite of knowing the best thing to do is to let them suffer the consequences of their actions.  Some of those consequences would include death.  That would be so hard as a parent.

I wonder where TH was drinking that she had almost double the legal limit and she had a child with her.  No one noticed?

I read about her criminal history and thanks to whomever posted this, IIRC it was early on......and obviously she is an alcoholic from what we read in the sworn affadavit, she was visibly drunk several nights a week and ITA about ppl saying they would not leave their kids with an alcoholic/drug addict, but I some here no doubt are posting from experience myslef included having an alcoholic brother and from my experience when my husband (ex now) started self medicating on RX drugs, and we actually did NOT leave our kids......At first I was uncertain what was going on with my husband, but the fact he'd fall asleep while sitting on the couch while eating was enough for my sensors to go thru the roof, and I vowed never to leave him in the home alone nor let him drive with my kids. I started investigating him a bit and followed him, that's how I found out about the Dr shopping and when I asked the pharmacist for his records (I told them it was for tax purposes), so within a week I knew and started planning a divorce ::MonkeyNoNo:: I just couldn't risk an accident, and I knew I'd never forgive myself if anything happened to my kids. I DO understand also about your comment wrt having a child become an alcoholic, but I know without a dount if my child was an alcoholic I would not enable them, I watched my dad do that for yrs with my brother and it is only by luck he is still alive, that is why I didn't hesitate to call the cops when he came to my house drunk, it was the only time we had any power over him, and we put him in rehab. Granted he has fallen off the wagon, and from what I understand that is pretty much the norm, seems as thought alcoholic and drug addicts have to go more than once and even then must be in a support group to even hope to remain sober, yet it would be very hard to do the tough love thing and worry about whether your child was sleeping in a car etc., so IMO it's vitally important to get them in rehab ASAP, calling the cops and having them arrested gives you that opportunity and even my brother expressed gratitiude after he sobered up. Percerption is something I have been posting about lately, and I stated I think Kaine's perception may have been clouded after listening to his and then Desiree's versions of the affair and again in regards to Terri's alcoholism.

I too wonder why someone let her drive so impaired with her son, was she leaving an event where others saw her or was it just her and James, I don't know but if someone did know that and still let her drive, I find that so sad and pathetic, she could have killed him or any other innocent driver, pedestrian on the street and IMO the one that knew she was that drunk  ::MonkeyMad::  But, that didn't happen and if it did I am sure we'd be asking the same questions, instead Ky is missing and that is why we are questioning the family dynamics, and acohol abuse along with asking was her punishment so severe of Kyron that it didn't raise eyebrows? The entire case is FUBAR and makes me so sad, he deserves to be with his family right now enjoying a wonderful meal and thinking about Santa Claus

 ::HelloKitty::

Island, that took a lot of courage to check your ex out and very clever, too.

And you did do the best thing for your brother.  It's all up to him what happens. 

I can see why your father continues to enable.  I just feel that I might do the same thing.  Although at his age it wouldn't be as bad to leave him to his own devices (your brother).  He has become very adept at living with his issues and knows how to take care of himself, I bet.

It's on the same level as Kaine and Desiree thinking that TH did something to Khron, but yet there is nothing they can do about the fact that she has info.

That would be so incredibly difficult.  I pray for strength and peace for them, as well as for your brother.

hellokitty - BBM do you think Terri's sleeping on the couch since Christmas is connected in any way with the 9ll call of December 26, 2009, that Terri's divorce attorney is trying to get a copy of (LE doesn't want to let go, citing an ongoing criminal investigation)?

The sheets/blanket on the couch maybe it was for one of the kids to sleep on. I would do that when one of mine was sick and then they wouldn't feel lonely in their room. Or to protect the couch from stains when you have young kids.

Happy Thanksgiving Monkeys!

This article really ticked me off. Kaine and Desiree are NOT to blame for Kyron being missing because of the "would a could a should a" that some people seem to think. The fact is that if Terri had never been born, would have saved Kyron. SHE, and whomever helped her, are the ones, and only ones, that should have guilt regarding Kyron being missing.

All of us have made bad decisions in our life and those two are not immune to that. The fact that we don't know what happened when Desiree came back to the US after her kidney treatment and didn't try to get Kyron back is something that none of us have answers to. I'm sure she needed time for healing and most likely, her finances where pretty low by then. How could she fight someone making 90K or so a year? She couldn't. Kaine was in his tidy little home, shacking up with Terri.

Honestly, I don't care for Kaine either, but he IS Kyrons father and I totally believe that he loves him. I also believe, IMO, that Kaine was an absent father in many ways. I don't understand all of the contradiction going on about Terri from him. The only way I can explain it is, if he's been going to therapy, the things that he took as normal in the beginning, are now appearing to be abnormal. It's a part of therapy growth.

Lastly, BBM, I don't believe for one moment that Desiree would have said, or implied to Kyron, to be be "a good boy" if he complained or became sad because of something happening in his other home. I think she was duped into believing Kyron was living in a safe home.

JMO

It could also be because they had a cat and didn't want cat hair on it. I have kitties and I keep a blanket over the sofa because it's easier to clean the cat hair off it. Just throw the blanket in the washer and wallah! When company comes over, I take the blanket off.

I don't think either or guilty in the disappearance either, but I do think it's natural for a parent to do the "would have, should have could have thing". I have done it myself, what if I did or didin't do xyz......of course the ramifications are not anything close to a missing child, more like a child got a fever and I was at work, to me it's mom guilt. I have it if I go to work and my son gets sick at school and think "why didn't I know he was sick before I sent him", and when I miss work I feel guilty sometimes. It sucks sometimes to have it but all the working moms I know admit to having "mom guilt" whether we should or not. ITA about absent father wrt checking out IMO, and also the fact it would have been very hard for Desiree to get custody back, from everything I have witnessed and personally know from my case and others-it is very hard to reverse custody unless there is a significant change in circumstances for the negative and I feel in this case even when there was one, she wasn't made aware of the fact so how could she have used it to fight? She was in a rock and a hard place and again agree with being duped, but that's JMO since we now know Ky was living with an alcoholic that exhibited symptoms of "something is WAY wrong", a SM that used excessive punishment and from what we are being told a complete sociopath. I also feel she has been the most honest of everyone and my heart aches for both, but for some reason even more for her since she was led to believe things were something they were not and I can only guess it might have been done for custody reasons cause IF she had known, I think she'd have gone to court for custody and she'd had enough to IMO reverse custody, instead she is learning how Kyron really lived from media, so yes that is a kick in the gut to someone already suffering.

You mean we aren't supposed to have blankets on the couch normally ::MonkeyShocked:: J/K....my kids love to snuggle on the couch and in the winter we many times have a blanket if not a pillow on the couch, and also when my kids were little it was pretty much the norm to prevent kool-aide or whatever from ruining my couch. Finally I broke down and bought brown leather, but shhh I still have throw blankets on it ::MonkeyWink::

I'm expressing my thoughts....I think it's mean to rake a grieving parent over the coals, and  twist every word he says into something he didn't intend. Some of this stuff  he's being criticized about , that's also a is extremely petty. There have been posters on this forum who have been looking to blame Kaine since the day Kyron went missing. Kaine is NOT a suspect,he never has been a suspect, and he should be treated kindly because he is also a victim, and he is suffering terribly. He is trying to protect Kiara, and he's doing the best he can, I am sure. He is living a nightmare.
In a divorce, the lawyers use strong language and lots of drama to make their case against the other spouse. All of the posters who are calling Kaine out for the words used in the pleadings are wrong. He DID NOT WRITE THOSE WORDS. His attorney did, and thats just how the legal process works. Legal proceedings are really like theater, and attorneys are often acting or exaggerating certain points for their legal strategy.
Kaine has a separate branch of this tragedy unfolding before him even as he has had to deal with a missing Kyron. Of course he's changing his view as he learns more, and he is expressing a different attitude. That makes perfect sense. There's nothing sinister about it.
Before posters start tearing a grieving parent's words apart, maybe the CONTEXT should be considered. Or that the situation is evolving. Everyone does that. People change their ideas about others in their lives as they get more information.

 I really hope he doesn't read here.

When arrests are made in this case, I will bet you my life that Kaine will not be the one arrested and that Terri and maybe an accomplice will be.  LE knows who is responsible, they are getting their evidence together and an arrest will be made. 

I don't like seeing Kaine, Desiree or Tony bad mouthed in any way.  Nobody is perfect, we all make mistakes.  Kaine, Desiree and Tony are all victims.

TY, TY, TY Klaas.  You said it better than I could.

 ::HelloKitty::

I am amazed, too, that people criticize Kaine as an "absent" father.

In jobs that are demanding, the employer demands a lot.  If you don't like it, there are 100 people waiting to take your job.  Probably more.

40 hours a week is not a work week that professionals have.  He is providing for his family.  His wife got to stay home with the children.  And she got to do what she wanted to do such as volunteer at the school and go to the gym. I think a lot us would have liked to take care of our children instead of going to work.

Even Kaine working and providing for his family gets criticized.  Very sad to me.

With all the talk of how professional Kaine is/was, and how Terri was a stay home Mom who only had to concern herself for the raising of the chilren and the daily functioning of the home? Then, why according to various sources, which I cannot quote (I'm away from my computer), that Terri was obligated to pay Kaine 1,000.00 per month in addition to raising the children maintaining the home on a daily basis.

I think it's coming soon also Klaas.  I totally believe LE knows "who" and I believe they have the evidence to convict but why rush it.   

Prayers for Kyron and his family.
 ::MonkeyAngel::

BBM MK those are Terri's words in one of her emails sent to someone. We do not know this is the truth. Think Pathological liar. At this point I believe very little of what she says that makes people pity her.

All of the Kaine bashing, Kick him while he's down is very sad.

Sassi ITA.

MK I had asked a while back if you were in LE and I never saw an answer (If you did answer I apologize) but this post kinda tells me.  I enjoy seeing you on here and watching your Son at the bottom.  Are you active, retired? Thank you for serving our community day in and day out!  LE is usually not thanked enough.


                                                                      ::MonkeyKiss::                  ::monkeywine2::

Hey fellow Florida gal, y'all look bee-u-ti-ful as do ALL our wonderful Monkeys!  About sending James away...since the supposed RS affair was late last year and a poss 911 call in Dec. and then calling LE on RS and them going to his home (wife found out???) it might just be that RS threatened to do some kind of harm to HER family and TH may have thought James was first in line to be harmed?  It makes a little sense.  I bet she never dreamed her former flame would come after Kyron.  He isn't her child.  James just might have known RS if he ever did come to the house and "work". But then again, taking her child wouldn't hurt her marriage like her lover taking her husbands child.

I disagree, enabling is simply standing on the sideline and watching what you've stated above and it doesn't just take place with alcoholism.  Humans enable other humans in so many ways in all aspects of life.

A Martyr is one who will do what you've stated above.

I guess that makes me both. BBM  I agree. Sometimes Usually it is easier to see after the fact, we can only pray that it becomes clear sooner. In my experience it has been "too close to the forest to see the trees". When someone else started pruning the branches and clearing the weeds and underbrush, I have had the "aha" moment. Only by the grace of God have we made strides forward. It is an ongoing battle, we are winning...

The only source for that is Terri herself and personally, I don't buy it.

Seamus O'Riley  and Lilian Glass right a blog about other crimes as well. Caylee, Haleigh, and I'm sure others. I suppose some people like their perspective and others don't. It is just their interpretation of things.

I think that so many of us have different views based on our own life experiences. When I met my husband, he was going through an ugly divorce. He was told to ALWAYS tell the truth in his statements and not to exaggerate anything. He spent thousands upon thousands of dollars protecting his children from his ex-wife's new live-in boyfriend, a known alcoholic. This went on for years. His ex would say that her boyfriend no longer drank, no longer drove on a suspended license, blah blah blah. All of which we would prove in court over and over was not true. So, for me, having been on the end of it where we spent money we did not have to protect my husbands children from an alcholic that they were exposed to during her visitation, I have a hard time with parents who look the other way. I am so sorry that Kyron is missing, just as I would be equally sorry if Terri had driven Kyron while drunk and he was killed during a car accident with her while drunk. There comes a time for accountability. My only concern are for the children that are victims, not the parents who put them in a position to be a victim. Children never seem to legally have a voice and there are many of us who speak for the children, even if there are those that want to squelch this voice. JMO

You are still not getting it. No one is suggesting that KAINE lied to his lawyers or that he should.I did not even remotely suggest such a thing. I am saying very plainly that it's part of the legal process and that it's the way that LAWYERS word things. Do not twist my words either.

The person who should be held accountable is Terri Moulton Horman. Kaine did not know in advance that she would harm his child. He was blindsided by her duplicity, and he is also a victim.
I do not blame him for trying to help his wife, and for wanting to save his marriage. I blame the appropriate person...Terri.

 ::HelloKitty::

I am very confused about the money TH "had" to give Kaine.

I work and my paycheck goes into our bank account.  My hubby works, and his paycheck goes into our bank account.

When I got an inheritance, the money went into our bank account.

So why wouldn't TH's money go into a family bank account?

If she looked at herself as a babysitter, butler, maid, etc, she should have looked elsewhere.  She could have actually been paid a salary.

Did she think that she was earning a salary by doing the things that a mother does?  Did she think then that the rest of the money was fun money only for herself to do with as she wished?

Kaine was supposed to work and all of the money he made went to the family whereas her's does not?.

It sounds like she looked at her marriage as a business arrangement.

That very well could be, I was just looking for more alternate theories that might prove the alcohol allegations such as passsing out visibly drunk and the rest, like I said my kids are more perceptive than the adults around me and I was wondering if he had seen this and said something to his mom, she promised to stop and then sent him away since she knew she wasn't going to and didn't want him to see it.....Of course, this is all IF she was a true alcoholic, and literally everything we've heard except Ky is missing, he went missing from school, the texts and email is a he said/she said (well in the case she isn't saying jack shit since she knows she's in deep), but we have NO idea what really went on in that home behind closed doors. ::MonkeyNoNo:: But, I did read where Kaine stated yesterday that "Kyron suffered" wrt her punishment.........well, instead of paraphrasing I found it:

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/11/kyrons_parents_--_kaine_horman.html

In previous interviews, Horman said he learned that Terri Horman secretly drank in 2005 while competing in a bodybuilding contest. She was arrested that year for drunken driving and completed a diversion course. Horman said things were fine after that until Terri Horman gave birth to Kiara in 2008.

But on Monday he indicated that things were not fine.

"I think the alcohol was the tip of the iceberg," he said.

He accused his estranged wife, again, of being a demanding mother and stepmother, carrying out "inappropriate punishment."

"It was excessive in nature," he said, adding that Kyron suffered.  

"It is evident the relationship between them was strained," he said

I guess mentally I blocked that last sentence about the suffering, and now I am wondering what led him to this conclusion since Kyron isn't here to tell him, and we know Terri isn't saying jack.....so, was this previously known? OMG~If it was known and nothing was done about it, I think I am going to be physically sick at the thought , such as sweet child and he looked like all he wanted was to love and be loved, and IMO like he was trying so hard to please and children shouldn't have to live that way EVER. WTH is this world coming to???   ::MonkeyTears::

Thanks HK, I think I have been following missing and abused cases so long that my antenna is prolly to high, but in this case the knowledge I had learned from reading places like SM helped SOOOO much, so it wasn't really courage as much as I had read about how others had done it (all except the info from the pharmacy), so I already had a template/plan so to speak.

Dad is getting better with my brother and he was grateful I called the police too, and as hard as it is on him I pray he doesn't fall into enabling him again, but you are right about your own kids........very hard call, a spouse IMO is totally different. WRT my brother being edept, he isn't, and that's why he hits rock bottom so often and sometimes I wonder how much further is your rock bottom....what happens when he falls off the wagon is that he calls non-stop and starts crying and saying he loves everyone and how nobody loves him, frankly he sounds suicidal when he gets that way and I think that is why dad is almost killing himself to try and get to him ASAP when these episodes happen, as a parent it has to be the most devastating thing to see your kids go thru. But, even my dad is extremely demanding about who he is around, but I have the only kids so it makes that aspect easier. Thanks for your prayers, I think everyone is praying for a resolution and a successful conviction, wrt thank you for that also ::HelloKitty::

Oh one more thing, I never meant Kaine was an absentee parent literally, I think that he might not have been as tuned it to the red flags and I know many ppl like that, more men than women as generally men are less emotional than women and tend to compartmentalize and think it will get better or I'll fix it and that comes across as detached from the day to day life in the house, not that I thought he shouldn't work. I just wanted to clear that up.....I know many men, and a few women who go thru life with blinders on, makes life easier and I see it more in 2nd and 3rd marriages and especially blended families, they want to not rock the boat too much since there is NO way in hell to make everyone happy. Another reason I will never marry (if ever) until my son is in college, I don't want to risk it and at this point in my life am very happy with just dating, working and having time to enjoy my family.

I'm pretty sure I read where he stated last week IIRC that they kept seperate bank accounts, I'm not sure how the money from any of the acct's were divied up or on what, I'd assume since the house was only in his name that he paid the note and insurance etc, I wonder if they had one joint account for general expenses like groceries, kids clothing, school supplies, Dr's appt co-pays and RX....not sure we know, but I only heard about seperate accounts.

My husband and I have joint and separate bank accounts. Maybe they had both as well? Maybe having all separate accounts is really a good idea.

No doubt it certainly looks like Terri had something to do with Kyron's disappearance. But honestly I don't think none of us here know for sure what she did or didn't do. And we sure don't know what was all going on inside that home either. We don't know if anybody was trying to save that marriage at all either. Maybe they were both sick of each other and wanted out. I'm sure most people would never think that a spouse or family member would ever kill anyone, even though red flags are everywhere.

BBM even though I think a lot of couples keep their money separate, that is something that makes me go hmmmm, maybe they both thought of the marriage as a business arrangement for some reason......not sure that it helps in finding Kyron, but it would explain a few things......

ITA NRCG, never in a million yrs would I expect anything to nefarious to happen such as kidnapping or murder, but I guess I am just a worrier since I am a sticker who my kids can ride with, and a lush in the house would be off the list ASAP......even now that my daughter drives, since she is barely 19 and relatively inexperienced, I don't let my son ride with her either unless it's ONLY on the Island which is 4 streets wide, and the area she is allowed to drive in is a 2 mile area that is strictly residential, never near the public beach...... no traffic whatsoever, and the school is 3-4 blocks away and I make her take the least traveled road that is on the gulf ::MonkeyTongue:: OK, I know that sounds extreme but I am just a natural born worrier and I know most kids have a wreck in the first 4 yrs of driving, and it's also IIRC the leading cause of death so I justify my uptight behavoir by reminded myself those statistics. Add alcohol and not a shot in hell he'd ever be in that car. ITA also that we really don't know what was happening in regards to saving the marriage, what goes on behind closed doors in many homes would shock most of us ::rhino::

I hear you, I'm a natural born worrier as well. Oh, I'm sure what goes on behind closed doors in some homes would shock most of us. And that's just it, in a lot of cases we really don't know what was all going on, just making guesses with bits and pieces of info.

Just some thoughts, but Terri and Kaine were not young newly weds.  If there were previous marriages, child support and etc. involved, this could be a possible reason for separate bank accounts.  Also, if one had good credit and the other didn't, this could be a reason for separate accounts.  And marriage really does have it's business aspects.  When you marry, you become subject to certain laws and obligations, depending on the state you live in.  I think sometimes people marry without considering the financial aspects and ramifications. My husband and I have joint accounts, but have been married for a long time.  When we first married, we had separate accounts for a couple of years, because we both were mature adults with jobs and assets.  I didn't see a sudden need to combine the accounts and neither did he.  Over time it all sort of evolved and we have joint accounts, but I tend to use one more than another for small household expenses, while the other account pays taxes and the bigger expenses.  All of it is "our" money, though.    How long were Terri and Kaine married?  I just don't think people get married and then go open joint accounts and merge everything right away (especially if they are older)  in this day and age,  for the reasons I mentioned in the beginning of this post.  I don't have access to Kaine and Terri's accounts, so I don't what's there.  Who made the house payments, paid the utilities, insurance, doctor bills and etc.?  Just some thoughts.  It's hard to compare different people's marriages and financial arrangements. What would seem right to some would be totally alien to others, imo.  JMHO

Exactly and not everything works for all married couples. The name on the house has Kaine's name only, so Terri could have had bad credit or he just didn't want her name on it.

Except bad credit only matters in getting the loan ,not the title to the house, trust me I KNOW this one......one person can apply for the mortgage if the other has bad credit, and still have the other name on the mortgage    ::MonkeyWink::  (and in many states the spouse HAS to go on the title due to laws, but can be removed by getting them to sign a quitclaim deed or many other ways, but it's mandatory here). Of course, they weren't married IIRC when he bought the house, I thought they married a few months later. I thought they married on 2005, although I could be wrong.

Thank-you I didn't know that.

Melisb- Sorry I didn't see you post your question previously.  Former, is your answer and thank you :)

"I get it" quite well. You see Kaine as the victim and I see Kyron as the victim.

 ::HelloKitty::

they weren't married when they bought the house.

And there is no way in h*** that you can apply for a loan with your spouse that has bad credit. 

Kaine bought the house before marriage, so the bank would not need to know anything about TH.

Maybe they just never got around to putting her name on the deed.  Or maybe TH has creditors.

Quite frankly, I do not know anyone who has separate bank accounts in their marriages of my friends, family and acquaintances.

An incredibly strange concept to me.  But I am older and have been married for a million years.

It sounds more like a room mate thing to me than a marriage. 

But  I can see where it would be beneficial if finances are limited.  That way the bills can be paid and each spouse can deal with the rest of the income without impacting the necessities and obligations.

I've been married a million years also, finances are not limited, and it isn't a roommate situation. For some people this just works better, I know that I like the idea of my own money.

 ::HelloKitty::

I see parents who are in the shoes of Kaine and Desiree as victims.  Their  son is missing.  How horrifying is that? 

 

I see the parents of missing children as victims too. However, some of the time, the child would not have been a victim in the first place, had the parents not allowed them to be put in the position of being a victim. Until a child turns 18, they have no rights at all. It is so sad.

With regards to the $1000.00 that Terri CLAIMS she paid Kaine, I guess I would have to do the math. I was in a similar situation when I met my husband. He wanted me to contribute ex amount to the monthly bills. I did this for a few months until I realized that I could live elsewhere for about the same money and I would not have to cook, clean or be the primary care-taker of his children. I brought this to his attention and the situation was fixed. I don't trust anything that Terri has to say at this point. I am starting to not trust much that Kaine has to say either, simply based on inconsistencies. I have not seen a lot of inconsistencies with Desiree. When I see her on t.v. my heart breaks for her.

FCL- let's respectfully agree to disagree! My understanding of a martyr is someone who is sacraficed in some way for a cause. Enabling is when you either overlook, deny or save someone from the consequences of the error of their ways, as in alcoholisim or drug addiction, pedophilia- something not acceptable by societies standards.

ITA they bought the house before the marriage, but if two ppl had kept seperate acct's and filed taxes seperately they can apply for a loan without getting smacked, but there was no need to put her on the loan since they were not married, but I do know from personal experience you can have someone listed on the mortgage and not the loan and it can be done at closing. I was 31 when I married for the first time and my prospective hubby (now known as SATAN's spawn) had an IRS issue from collapsing his 401K, IRA and pension acct so he could use the money to buy custody of his boys from a previous marriage. He never paid the taxes on the $400,000+ and I didn't want that following me, so I spoke to my CPA and he told me to keep everything in my name until it was cleared up, never put my name on a credit app with him, and file taxes seperately and it worked, he was never tied to me financially and I never put his name on the house since he never cleared up the tax issue, I was able to obtain a loan for a home in my name only at the best rate available even though we were married, now had I followed thru and bought the home I would have had to add his name to the mortgage since it was in Florida and that's the law unless you put the home in a living trust.......anyway I nixed the deal when I noticed his behavoir and you know the rest. Granted not everyone would know that it can be done, but since it was a worry to me when I married him, I made sure to safeguard my credit. Of course after a longggggg divorce proceeding and having to stay home and not work so he wouldn't be alone with our son my credit was destroyed ::MonkeyTongue:: But it was the right thing to do and I ended up turning it around when we moved here. I think someone (maybe Muffy) stated how some ppl do this when they come into a marriage at an older age with assets of their own and if things go well, eventually combine them so I can see why ppl have seperate accts under certain circumstances, but would hope when and if I marry again when my son is grown that I can relax a bit and combine acct's...

Ok, quick question- we shouldn't believe Terri stating she had to pay Kaine 1,000.00 a month, but it's ok to believe she wrote emails complaining, hateful towards Kyron? How can we have it both ways/double standard?

We forget, in the begining of this case, Terri and Kaine, Desiree and Tony put up a united front. Where would this investigation be had Terri passed the polygraph?

I am not sure about the emails. The thing that I find hinky about the emails are that it is my belief that LE must have had them for months. I just cannot understand why they were just brought to Desiree's attention. My personal feeling is that Desiree is fed up. I don't blame her. She is probably starting to make a lot of noise and demands of LE, AS SHE SHOULD. I also think that Desiree has known about Kaine's allegations about Terri since the beginning of Kyron's disappearance. She tried to remain by Kaine's side but after all of this time, she is worn down and speaking out. She wanted Kyron back a year ago and Terri agreed by Kaine said no.

Correct me if I am wrong, as it has been a long time, but the part of the polygraph that Terri flunked was her timeline? Didn't she pass on the part about knowing or causing harm to Kyron?

 ::MonkeyDevil:: ::MonkeyDevil::Love it!! I need to find the calculations where they showed the value in monetary terms of a stay at home mom (sans nannies or anything like that), and it was pushing $100m a yr, so ITA!

Also agree that so far I haven't seen any inconsistencies with Desiree, only extreme pain and think so far she is the only one that has been totally honest, I wouldn't trust Terri as far as I could throw her, and Kaine I think is trying to keep what he thinks are skeletons in the closet, ie the affair not being an affair and the drinking issue, so that is prolly why we see these inconsistencies, at least IMO, so if I had to pick anyone I believe and trust more than the other she'd win out......granted if something comes out from her that is also inconsistent I will change my mind. That being said, I'd love to know what the aggreement was with her and Kaine on Ky's custody when she left for lifesaving treatment, was it that it was only temporary and she custody was supposed to revert back to her and he fought it (and I can see that as a normal response from any parent so no judgement call from me), I see her as a very selfless person who has consistently put her son's needs ahead of hers and I am amazed at that, to me it's akin to someone putting their child up for adoption that they love and want to keep with every fiber of their being, but realize the child would have a better life for (fill in the blank) reasons, so they allow the adoption because they put the child's needs ahead of their own.

Great question MK, and who knows is my answer ::MonkeyNoNo::

Sebastian~ IIRC, I also thought the questions she failed were not pertaining to harming Kryon (of course we know nothing as fact, but I thought I read that on Blink's site). Of course I guess she could pass that part of a poly if she was asked did you harm Kyron or do you know where Kyron is if she had an accomplice and honestly doesn't know where he is, and didn't directly harm him.....I think my guilt of knowing I had laid the plans would give me away, but we don't know the questions asked or how they were worded, so it's another huge issue lingering out there.

Hi Island Monkey,
Seriously, why do some women do all of this and then also allow the husband or boyfriend to control the purse strings? I love all of my kids, but being the primary care taker of children is a full-time job. It is exhausting! I was also working outside of the home at the time! It is all about that "fairness factor" for me.

I so agree about Desiree! I also have to give both Kaine and Desiree credit for being able to restrain themselves when the had access to Terri. If I thought that someone had taken my child, I would probably would have done some really illegal things to get them to talk.

I agree, and I have not seen inconsistencies with Desiree, and my heart breaks for her also.

Not the article I am looking for, but it will do in a pinch wrt the value of a homeaker:

What's a Wife Worth?
A Lot More Than She Used to Be, Thanks to Divorce Lawyer Michael Minton
By Marianna Beck
 
 
 Comments In 1979, a young attorney named Michael H. Minton successfully argued that a housewife was worth more than $40,000 a year. The public snorted and the press made fun, but the ramifications proved enormous. When the dust finally settled, the 33-year-old Chicago lawyer had catapulted matrimonial law into an entirely new arena.

Michael Minton likes to tell you that he takes cases no one else will. It's not for the money, he says, or for another 15 minutes of Warholian fame, but because he doesn't like what happens to a lot of women when they get divorced. It isn't that Minton favors female clients. (His firm handles an almost equal number of divorce-seeking husbands.) What bothers him most is that divorce has been reduced to a battle of economics and its victims are almost always wives and children. The losers are further harmed by an overburdened court system that favors the party with the deepest pockets. Although last year Minton managed to win alimony for a doctor's husband, more often than not, the economically disadvantaged party is the wife.

Divorce attorneys are part of the problem, Minton says. Many like nothing better than a lengthy legal battle, he contends, describing a case he has just inherited in which the husband has already spent a quarter of a million dollars in legal fees over the last two years. This same man claims he can't afford to pay his wife $3,850 a month. Minton, on the other hand, says he's never fired a client for not being able to pay (a lot of divorce lawyers do), and directs his efforts toward reaching some compromise outside of court.

Minton willingly acknowledges that public opinion ranks divorce lawyers only slightly above ambulance chasers. But though they are the bloodsucking profiteers of domestic wrangling, they are both necessary and in great demand. Last year more than 50,000 couples in Cook County had reason to use them.

 

Minton believes there are fundamental differences in the way men and women approach divorce. Men, he will tell you, generally view divorce as a business transaction, another claim to be settled. Women tend to react. "For them, there's a far more emotional connection to the concept of ending a marriage. If a husband files first, he's generally planned months ahead, hiding assets, perhaps increasing his debt service, and if he's self-employed, cutting his own pay. Women don't approach it that way."

Minton thinks women would be a lot better off if they viewed marriage as an economic partnership and were more cognizant of their monetary value, particularly as homemakers. That's a long way from when the length of a marriage was thought to equal the distance between Niagara Falls and Reno.

 

Placing a price tag on housework isn't exactly a new idea. Economists, feminists, and political ideologues have skirmished over the concept for years. Even a Justice Department task force took a whack at defining the value of housework, and in 1979 came up with the following: "The home production that is a woman's primary responsibility is obviously not work. Since no money is paid for the services, it is not only not work, it is valueless." While the conclusion may seem antediluvian, it sums up the attitudes that have prevailed since Australopithecus set up housekeeping.

Enter Michael Minton and a wealthy couple called the Gallaghers. It was 1978, one year after passage of the Illinois Marriage and Dissolution of Marriage Act. Like most other states, Illinois had finally decided to come out of the dark ages and overhaul its matrimonial laws.

The primary changes focused on the concept of marriage as an economic entity to which each partner made a different but equally important contribution. This meant that in a divorce, both parties' contributions to marital assets would be recognized, including those of a spouse as homemaker.

Traditionally, most major assets were held in the husband's name. The old laws refused to recognize any ownership of property by virtue of the marriage itself and provided no economic reward for a wife's at-home contributions. A husband could sell the house out from under his wife, and as one infamous Missouri case had shown, even keep the fruit she'd canned. "It was obscene," notes Minton. "A husband could walk away from a 50-year marriage and leave his wife with nothing."

The idea that a wife could acquire rights to shared property from her contributions as a homemaker was so revolutionary and contrary to past experience that few realized its implications. Until the Gallagher case.

After 39 years of marriage, Mrs. Gallagher had decided to file for divorce from her husband, a vice-president of Sears Roebuck. Although he had an annual income of more than $250,000 and net assets exceeding a million dollars, he had no plans to turn much of it over to his wife. After all, he argued, it was his money, his earnings, his property. Why should his wife be entitled to anything more than the maintenance most ex-wives got? But with alimony, what ex-wives usually got was the shaft. Past cases had demonstrated that those who needed alimony most--older women with no job skills--found it the least reliable. When an ex-husband retired, moved away, or died, the alimony ground to a halt. A legal battle with a nonpaying ex-husband could be prohibitively costly.

The concept of assigning monetary values to the services of a homemaker left Minton in virgin territory. He thought Mrs. Gallagher was indeed entitled to compensation, but how much was "just a housewife" worth? How could he quantify the enormous contributions he felt she had made as a homemaker, mother, hostess, corporate wife, and marital partner?

Not only did Minton need to affix a dollar amount to the nebulous and undefined role of homemaking, but he also had to convince the court that though the duties of her role were taken for granted, they earned Mrs. Gallagher an economic share in the gains her husband had made. After all, she had provided the environment in which he could successfully carry out his activities.

Minton's major argument centered on the replacement cost approach--a valuation method that determined what it would cost if someone else were hired to perform each one of Mrs. Gallagher's tasks. The total money paid all these replacements would then equal the value of her contributions to the household. Minton drew up a chart of 24 activities ranging from food buyer, nurse, and waitress to bookkeeper, dietitian, and child psychologist and based the earnings on prevailing hourly wages. When he was through, the annual figure had reached $40,288.04. (The same calculations today produce a sum of $48,698.)

But that was only the beginning. Minton called in expert witnesses to bolster his case. An employment expert confirmed that the 59-year-old Mrs. Gallagher had little hope in the job market. Her husband, on the other hand, would leave the marriage with his high earning power intact and even after retirement could expect to earn substantial fees as a consultant. An industrial psychologist and economist reinforced the importance of a corporate wife whose managerial skills at home influenced her husband's economic success. The psychologist went as far as putting a dollar value on her companionship, arguing that it could have influenced her husband's net worth by 20 to 50 percent. Finally, Minton reminded the court of another financial benefit: the amount a wife can save her husband on his taxes by enabling him to file jointly.

The Gallagher trial proved rancorous and protracted, and after it was over, legal actions dragged it out another year. But ultimately, the court did admit that the services of a homemaker had economic value. While it declined to place a price tag on them, the judge in the case awarded Mrs. Gallagher $40,000 a year in permanent maintenance, in addition to her share of the proceeds of the house, stock in her husband's company, 65 percent of the stock held in a profit-sharing plan, and part of his pension. The case had set a precedent and Minton had established that homemaking and motherhood could no longer be considered a worthless enterprise. He had legitimized it as a profession.

http://www.chicagoreader.com/chicago/whats-a-wife-worth/Content?oid=871934

I haven't commented on the hate emals. I haven't read them yet. It is an assumpton that Kaione made her stay home and not work. I honestly don't know who made that decision. Rght now I wish they would locate Kyron and bring him home. How truly sad so many have to suffer in this world because of evil people.

I wish I knew, maybe they feel they have no choice or are in a marriage that is with a controlling man........could be numerous reasons, but when you consider a homeaker works far more than 40 hrs a week, is always on call and in many cases the fact they are staying home and taking care of all the "housewife stuff", allows men in some careers to excel and make more money since they aren't burdened by the stress of "how am I going to get my kids to school, the dr's appt, games etc", they are able to concentrate and focus soley on their vocation, and apparantly judges agree that this adds 20% value to the job of homemaker and interestingly enough the judges even consider a wife's support and encouragement of the husband's job added value. Things have really changed in 30-40 yrs when a man would get a divorce and only have to pay a pittance in alimony and child support to now having to pay for the fact a wife gave up her career and earning potential by being out of the job market, thus allowing her or him in the case of stay home fathers to excel in their job and advance. I remember a case where a very high profile studio exec in Hollywood (again going from recollection) didn't think his wife deserved more than the minimum alimony and the judge disagreed, stating that she not only took care of the kids and house, but also hosted parties for his potential clients etc., and that he wouldn't have advanced without her support to the extent he would have on his own, so he awarded her a significant amount to compensate for her contribution to his career. I too am a working mom, but I admit I let the housework slide alot more (well more than alot  ::MonkeyWink:: ) than I did when I was a stay home mom, I am simply too wiped out after a long, stressful day at work, then come home to running lil man around, make dinner, pack lunch for school, supervise his homework, tidy up a little, do laundry and run to the grocery store.........well, after that I honestly have come to not care if the house is spotless, I realize once he's grown and out of the house it will be clean and not to sweat the small stuff, when being a less stressed mom helping him is far more important than the dust bunnies and dishes in the sink.

I know what you mean, I'd have already beat the crap out of Terri and I remember in the Cummings case thinking if I was Crystal I would have wanted so bad to get my hands on Misty and even Ron for allowing a drugged who to watch my kids, he obviously was thinking with the wrong head and his kids were not a priority, and IMO their lifestyle allowed a monster in....that monster could be Misty herself, Tommy, Joe, or even drugs. I just can't imagine what I'd do I were in their shoes, but it would take everything I had in me and a few valium not to reach out and touch someone IYKWIM ::MonkeyHaHa::

My only question on TH paying KH 1,000 a month ... is where in the HILL is she getting 1,000 a month?!  That's the whole reason I don't believe that claim.

I also don't believe KH when he suddenly claims TH was passed out on the couch ... blah blah blah ... and yet he did nothing to save his children from that at the time? ...

Both liars IMO.

IMO TH & KH were a combustible couple.  You know, those two people who seem to find one another and every emotion is magnified to the nth degree.  The "love/lust" in the beginning is so heated that they fail to see any faults in one another.  The "resentment/hate" that ensues once the honeymoon is over is blinding.  See it all the time. 

Personally, I think they are both horrible people.  They both chose to use their children as pawns over and over again in their multiple relationships and that just disgusts me!  Kyron deserved so much more ... Sad.  As do TH's son and baby K. 

One more thing I was thinking about, I wonder why the LE can't arrest Terri for child endangerment or child neglect? I need to look at the Oregon statutes but would think if there was enough evidence for the RO or whatever it's called PAFA (?), why couldn't they also arrest her for that, at least it would put her in jail like they did with Casey Anthony, and since the MFH was a bust as far as evidence I'd do anything I could to put her away, even if it was for a week it's possible it would remove her from her present reality where she is living with her parents and James, to a a jail cell on a thin mattress, aa blanket and bolgna sandwiches?

Any ideas?

IMO there is something hinky about Kaine saying Terri's drinking was hidden - yet he states in his court filing that she was "visibly drunk and passed out several nights a week".  Those two statements don't jive.  I've heard Kaine more than once say that the drinking was hidden.  His court filing in which he asserts all the comments about Terri is "HIS sworn affidavit" of his words (not the attorney's words) and that's why the affidavit is written "first person" rather than in third person like motions are written and is in the attorney's words. 

To me...the hinky part (other that outright contradictions) is if Kaine were there in the house, why wasn't he seeing to it that Kiara was put to bed at a more normal time for a toddler to be in bed.  Where was Kaine in the evenings?  Why was he discovering Terri passed-out on the soft with Kiara running around at 1:00 a.m. several nights a week?  Where was Kaine during the time after dinner until 1:00 a.m.?  Did Kaine normally sleep during those hours several nights a week? Or was Kaine away from the home and coming back home at 1:00 a.m. and finding the situation? 

The hinky part is with all this going on with Terri and it being so visible to Kaine, why wasn't Kaine watching after Kiara more closely? 

Because I ask these questions about Kaine does NOT mean that I think he did anything with Kyron.  There are some who erroneously interpret a question about Kaine to mean that the poster is insinuating that Kaine is guilty of disappearing Kyron.
I don't think that Kaine will be arrested for Kyron going missing.  I do think that Terri and "probably" and accomplice will be arrested.  I also think that there's a "possibility" that it's someone like RS or an associate with Terri not being directly involved but with Terri being the cause; i.e., anger, payback, etc.  I'm on the fence about the kind of involvement Terri has in this (she did it? had someone do it?  someone did it as payback against her?).  I'm staying on the fence, too, because there's no arrest and there's no concreted evidence that has been relayed to the public.  Terri is a POI.  If there was concrete evidence, she would be arrested.  The day she's arrested....is the day LE has it all tied together and the DA has a rock-solid case.  Until then, we "don't know for sure" who is the guilty party.

And...IMO....there's more to come - not about Kyron - but with the family Kyron was growing up with, living with, things Kyron could have been affected by, things he could have seen, thing that "might have affected his world and led up to the tragedy that ultimately affected his well-being".  So with that perspective, yes, IMO, it's important to understand what was going on in the house where Kyron lived, the family dynamics are important, IMO, and not "just" part of the divorce.  We're talking about how Kyron "lived" "daily".  It's all a part of the package.

And...it's hinky...there's more to come!



 

NRCG - agree.

There's a "distancing" aspect to me if you buy a home and only one name on the mortgage.  Further that with "separate" financial accounts...even more distancing.  Yes, I understand there could be "real" reasons for the separation.  There's also a distancing (if true) that Terri had to pay Kaine $1000 a month.  Huh?  Where was she getting any money?  Child support...okay I agree funds toward support for James should be given while James was living in the home.  I can't recall (and if any other monkey knows, please advise) but I don't think Terri was getting anywhere near $1000 a month in support from James' father who adopted him.  So where was she getting the other money?  The email mentioned she'd used all her $30,000...was that possibly what she was using until it was used up?  Could that have been the settlement money from way back and the business that was owned?  And...what was to happen lately...when all her money ran out?  How was she supposed to be able to continue to pay the $1000. 

One thing seems likely to me, money was a bone of contention in that household.  Money is the root of all evil.  I think "money" could have been a big problem in the family dynamics and whatever went on, Kyron was probably more aware of it than Kaine/Terri realized.

We don't know whether or not "money" was the reason for Kyron going missing - because - if money was a problem, all sorts of scenarios could have played out...dangerous ones...especially if you're dealing with a person who's angry - (just and example) like RS who was "livid" (to quote Blink) at Terri for making a 9ll call against him (because he was in the country illegally).  Then, LE, went to RS's home...subsequent to the 911 call and before Kyron went missing - supposedly RS's wife and children are gone (out of anger?).  LE is searching for them.  Some days I think that this search is the reason why LE has not made any arrest(s) yet.  LE wants to find these people.  There "could" be a connection there because the timing of these list of events is hard to believe as just being coincidental.

Sebastain - ditto

Sebastian - ditto

MK - point taken!

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one klaas.  Using your child(ren) as a pawn is not a mistake - it's a conscious decision made by a selfish parent.

MK - good question. 

We know Terri passed questions LE may have posed about does she know where Kyron is, or did she take Kyron from school, or did she hurt Kyron....else, Terri would have been arrested at the very beginning.

Blink tells us that LE knows Kyron did NOT leave the school with Terri.  That's why I stay on the fence - Terri didn't "take" him from the school - BUT - there's a great possibility that she's involved in other ways.  There's a smaller possibility that someone else took him and Terri was unaware of any plans but that they did it out of a bad relationship with Terri (which would make her indirectly involved). 

 ::MonkeyBike:: Have you been reading my mind.....I can't get past those questions either, IMO if A is sworn to, how can the affiant say they didn't know......I wish we had an attorney on here to explain this, if the affadavit had stated "I believe Terri was drunk and passed out on the couch several nights a week as opposed to she was visibly drunk and passed out several nights a week it would make more sense and not have been as contradictory, but it is what it is and at this moment IMO it is a direct contradiction the way it's stated and he signed it, so whether or not the argument is the atty wrote it, he signed it and swore it to be the truth, and I just don't see how it could be both.

BBM~I agree with everything in this post, but feel very strongly about these as they seem to be such a point of contention and I agree just because I ask questions about the dynamics of the home life of a missing child, doesn't mean anything other than I am curious in whether or not these issues might have possibly prevented this tragedy or I pray to God that maybe it may help another family in the future to listen more closely to their children's cues and investigate them thoroughly because once you have ignored or pushed the comments aside as normal the child may not be as willing to share with you, they may feel like the parent doesn't believe them. I guess from the therapy my son and I went thru after I did listen to his cues, although I was guilty of asking the therapist if there was a possibility it could be anything else and I was told flat out NO....and even though I never let him see his dad again and took him to his therapist as soon as the doors opened, the fact I even asked the therapist that question still gets to me, but at least my child never knew I asked and he knew he could come to me with anything and I'd take it very serious. We are all human and fail our kids in some areas, but if we can share with others and pass on what to look for and it saves one child isn't it worth it?