Lively Case Discussion #489 7/8 - 7/9/2006

[Buckeye]

Maybe they are telling the truth.  They did drop Natalee and Joran by the Marriot beach...they just forgot to mention they also dropped off Deepak.  Then they met up with Freddy (who might have been with Guido or GVC).  Then they went to Jorans in Freddy's car or Satish got a ride home.

I can't see Joran heading to the beach where one of the 100+ MB students could have been hanging or walking around.

The area north of the Mariott and just south of the FH is about 1000 yards from the HI, or about a 5 minute walk.  At that time of nite it is dark and deserted.  Not much chance of any of her classmates being there.

With over a hundred kids....would you take the chance???

[BTgirl]

Hi monkeys.

I'm back for a couple of minutes and trying to get a timeline straight in my head.

1)The guys took a drugged Natalee to the VDS residence and raped her.
2)They put her in the car to take her to the beach and leave her.
3)Before they drive away from the VDS residence, Natalee manages to call Beth.
4)The guys get Natalee to the beach and "something bad happens."
5)Natalee bleeds in the car, then manages to get out of the car.
6)She clambers around the rocks while trying to escape and bleeds on them.
7)At some point Natalee dies.
8)The coverup begins


If we buy this as a possible timeline, and we assume that the 8 1/2 minute phone call was Joran/K2 transmitting a porn video of Natalee being raped, when during the timeline did the transmission occur? Would anyone have thought to transmit a porn video while trying to deal with a body?

What do you think?

I think it is close to the truth.  I have missed much along the way.  Was there an 81/2 min. call or a porn video, is this a fact?

There was an 8 1/2 minute call of some sort, and there has been speculation that it was transmission of a video of Natalee being raped. If it were indeed a video transmission, I'm trying to fit that into the proposed timeline we've discussed this morning.

[Ono]

http://www.diarioaruba.com/diasabra/noticia/news4.html

I could be wrong but it looks like more money trouble in Aruba.  I believe this article is saying the Visibility Team in the Arikok Park is out of money.

Gee what happened to the extra security they were working on (as per Julia Renfro )

Or is this another cheap excuse to get the GVC family off the island by saying business is bad and we have to close down.

Looks like to me they're getting out while the "gettin' is good" ~

[crazybabyborg]

Shizaru wrote:
Any theory that has all 3 present when she was injured or died isn't viable. It's clear from the polis car tapes that at least one member of the trio doesn't know what happened to her. If they all knew and none of them suspected they were being taped, there would have been no reason for them to all act like they didn't know. And if 2 or 3 of them knew and one of those 2 or 3 suspected they were being taped, he would have said something to alert the other(s), so they didn't say anything incriminating.

Yes. And Deepak said, "Freddy has to tell the truth".

But then Joran responded with something like "You know Freddy has told the truth".  So my take on the mention of Freddy on the tape is that 2K suspected (or were pretending to suspect) Freddy of some involvement, but didn't know it for certain.

Well healthy debate is good for discovering the truth. I take it differently. I think Joran is far more warned by Daddy that conversations might be recorded, and he redirects Deepak by that statement. If you look at the exchange in context, Joran switches the subject after making that statement.

[JuJu]

Thanks BT!  I am just trying to sort through what is fact from fiction and rumor.

[BTgirl]

Thanks BT!  I am just trying to sort through what is fact from fiction and rumor.

Aren't we all, JuJu, aren't we all?

[BTgirl]

Has anyone seen Easywriter lately?

I got an e-mail from him while I was at work yesterday morninig, but was in a bunch of meetings and didn't get to answer it for several hours. I never heard back from him and don't remember seeing him here yesterday or today.

Just wanted to make sure he is still in the land of the living.

[crazybabyborg]

OK, somebody guide me through my mud here, please. When did the phone call to Beth from Nat supposedly take place............I'm sorry, but I'd love to know that occured for a fact, and that voice analysis nails that down, and that call is accepted fact by Beth and Dave. Then, when did the 8.5 minute conversation/download between Deepak and Joran take place? We know that happened.

I'm begging anyone who can get through to Art tonight to ask about that call. Is it a fact, and do Dave and Beth accept it as such. Has it been authenticated so as to be able to use in court?

[klaasend]

SHIZARU - here is a photo I found in webshots of the beach at the Fisherman's Huts.  Looks like there are little reefs out there:

[Ono]

Shizaru wrote:
Any theory that has all 3 present when she was injured or died isn't viable. It's clear from the polis car tapes that at least one member of the trio doesn't know what happened to her. If they all knew and none of them suspected they were being taped, there would have been no reason for them to all act like they didn't know. And if 2 or 3 of them knew and one of those 2 or 3 suspected they were being taped, he would have said something to alert the other(s), so they didn't say anything incriminating.

Yes. And Deepak said, "Freddy has to tell the truth".

If Paulus saw the need to hire an attorney for Freddy, then Freddy is in it up to his eyeballs.

[tcumom]

Are we still interested in the ATM machines/PVS that late night/early morning?
Should we ask Art about that, or are we just leaving those questions for another day?

Any ideas?

[beachwego]

Hi monkeys.

I'm back for a couple of minutes and trying to get a timeline straight in my head.

1)The guys took a drugged Natalee to the VDS residence and raped her.
2)They put her in the car to take her to the beach and leave her.
3)Before they drive away from the VDS residence, Natalee manages to call Beth.
4)The guys get Natalee to the beach and "something bad happens."
5)Natalee bleeds in the car, then manages to get out of the car.
6)She clambers around the rocks while trying to escape and bleeds on them.
7)At some point Natalee dies.
8)The coverup begins.


If we buy this as a possible timeline, and we assume that the 8 1/2 minute phone call was Joran/K2 transmitting a porn video of Natalee being raped, when during the timeline did the transmission occur? Would anyone have thought to transmit a porn video while trying to deal with a body?

What do you think?

What times do we have for the calls?  I believe there were 3 from Joran to Deepak, weren't there?   Without having that information on hand, my first thoughts would be the sensible one....that the transmission would occur either during the rape or immediately after ....but trying to fit it in with what we have heard from Joran...perhaps it occurred during the latter time when Joran says he went home and viewed porn before going to sleep...as that could be the lie mingled with the truth.  

But, then, how do we know the times we have are accurate?  Haven't we heard they were "tinkered" with?

[Kat_Gram]

It would be telling if Paulus hired attornies for Joran, Deepak and Freddy at the onset.

Paulus  " arranged ' for attorney for the Kalpoes. Deepak stated in
the Skeeters tape that they could have had our version of the court appointed attorneys, but they wanted " better " representation.
Don't know if that was after they were arrested or when it became obvious that something like that was going to happen.
Art had said that Freddy's lawyer was obtained by Paulus. That also was right at the beginning. Freddy was questioned and I believe he is the one who Anita and Paulus had the conversation with after Freddy was questioned. That came from Karin J. They wanted to know what Freddy had said to the police. There were not any charges against Freddy or Jaime in relation to Natalee.
.
Guido Guido Guido. Why / What is his role in this ?
We know very little how he got into this and why Gerard Spong
was his lawyer right from the get go. Guido was questioned on Aruba. Guido was questioned in Holland and then was delared a suspect in February and then arrested recently.
If he was just a worker in the casino that Sunday night and was just with Joran and a group playing poker the Monday evening ( until what time  ? ) why such a high powered lawyer ?  
And Guido was flying under the radar ( the public radar ) on this one for a long time.
JQK had some sort of statments b/c in one of them, he said that Guido's name was all over the statments.

[beachwego]

Are we still interested in the ATM machines/PVS that late night/early morning?
Should we ask Art about that, or are we just leaving those questions for another day?

Any ideas?

I think it would be important to find out if it is even true...and where it fits in the timeline if it is.  Probably no one better to ask than Art.

[crazybabyborg]

I'm ready to stand corrected, but it seems to me that Freddy was most likely at Joran's when JK2 returned to Joran's with Natalee. The 4 boys participate in rape/video/and possibly murder at Joran's apt. I'm not sure she was killed at the apt.  Freddy and Joran, for sure, left in Deepak's car ( has to be his car because of the blood), to drop her off somewhere or dispose of her. I don't think Deepak and Satish were both present to take on that chore. Maybe one of them, maybe neither of them. In the car, if she were still alive, she comes around and attempts escape and they kill her, thus blood in the car. Blood would also be in the car if they had killed her at Joran's. I think they take her to the rocks near the lighthouse to dispose of the body, and put her in a shallow grave. Later, Joran tells Paulus out of fear, and he gets involved in covering up the events.
I'm not sure Deepak and Satish knew she was dead at first. They say adamently in the van, "We were protecting YOU!" "YOU would do 15 years if the truth came out". "Freddy has to tell the truth"..........I'm just thinking out loud here.

OK, what have I missed?

[klaasend]

Has anyone seen Easywriter lately?

I got an e-mail from him while I was at work yesterday morninig, but was in a bunch of meetings and didn't get to answer it for several hours. I never heard back from him and don't remember seeing him here yesterday or today.

Just wanted to make sure he is still in the land of the living.

Easywriter posted this morning in the "good morning Jerry" thread, lol  

[beachwego]

SHIZARU - here is a photo I found in webshots of the beach at the Fisherman's Huts.  Looks like there are little reefs out there:

For those that may not know, the darker areas are where the water is deeper..so the light areas would be where the reefs are as the water is shallow there...

It's a great picture, Klaasend....thank you!

[crazybabyborg]

Again, just thinking out loud............
"Freddy has to tell the truth" comes out in regard to Paulus, after Deepak seems to be admonishing Joran for involving Paulus. Maybe Joran returns and tells K2 that Freddy killed her. Or maybe he doesn't tell them that she's dead at all, but got hurt, and that he let Freddy drop her off while he waited in the car. Maybe Joran never admits to them that he killed her. They would still be implicated because of what happened at the apartment and because they participated in drugging her for rape/filming purposes. That would be enough for them to concoct the HI story, face ALE and Beth and Jug the next night, follow Paulus's advice, and sit in jail all summer.

[Sleuth]

ToTheBeachWeGo is correct - those darker areas are not reefs.   When I think of a reef I think of something I can climb or stand on, etc.   Not true with anything in the photo above  - but is is a nice photo  

BTW, hello monkeys

[crazybabyborg]

ToTheBeachWeGo is correct - those darker areas are not reefs.   When I think of a reef I think of something I can climb or stand on, etc.   Not true with anything in the photo above  - but is is a nice photo  

BTW, hello monkeys

Hiya, Sleuth! How are you this fine day?