Scared Monkeys Discussion Forum

Cool.....ty.

http://tinyurl.com/2run6u

Modernization plans for Aruba cruise harbor

The Prime Minister of Aruba, Mr. Nelson Oduber announced that in the location of the current container harbor, which will move to Barcadera, a modern and luxurious cruise terminal would be built to accommodate the extensive market of the cruise industry.

The Minister of Tourism and Transportation, Mr. Edison Briesen recently announced that efforts would be directed to Oranjestad wharf in working to attract greater cruise tourism to the island.

The Government of Aruba commissioned ALATEC, a Spanish company to complete a study and to come with a design which includes ideas of moving the cargo area to Barcadera and to evaluate the opportunities of transforming the former cargo area into an area for condominiums and mega yachts.

Another project is to create a plan for the wharf area with ideas encompassing new look for the wharf in regard to its architectural style. Minister Briesen is very optimistic to start with the projects by the end of this year, beginning of next year. The plans should be presented by November this year to Minister Briesen by Alatec, which in turn will present it to the Council of Ministers for a final decision.

Prime Minister Oduber added that the move is a political one with the economic feasibility in mind.

With this move the Government of Aruba hopes to boost the cruise tourism to Aruba even more.

http://www.admiralshipping.com/aruba.html#port2

Barcadera
Position:
Position: 12 29.0’ North / 070 01.0 West
Industrial harbour Located at 3 miles South East of Oranjestad.

Overview:
Primarily Aggregate, Cement, Ro-Ro, some Petroleum products and Propane. There is one berth 1,200 ft in length and the port has a maximum draft of 32 ft. Bunkers are available by barge and tank truck. Fresh water is also available ex-pipe. This port is also used for vessel conducting minor repairs.

Tidal range and flow: 0.4 M
Navigation aids: BA Charts 702 & 1412
Contact methods: Oranjestad Port Authority: VHF 16 and 11

Restrictions: Max LOA of vessels 230 M
Width of entrance to harbour 143.3 M(Turning basin) Depth 10.97 M

Berths:
1 x 1,200 Ft. Max Draught 31' Max Width 305 M

General Information:

Ballast
No facilities available to receive dirty ballast. Vessels are to arrive with sufficient ballast to permit safe handling

Waste Oil Disposal
Services for the Removal of engine/bilge oil can be provided via tanker trucks

Garbage
Collection service available

Freshwater
Drinkingwater from the purest Quality is supplied ex-pipe at a rate of about

20 to 30 Tonnes per hour

Bunkers:
Various Grades of Bunkers are available and can be supplied via bunkerbarge
In agreement with Vl Fuels and Marketing.

>> view map




 

FYI Monkeys ...

As I have always stated there is a reason why we do things here and why we implement certain formats for discussion and the sharing of information.

We had mentioned a family member had contacted us. This is a heads up and more details will be forth coming as to a more exact data and time.

However, Natalee Holloway's uncle, Paul Reynolds, will be coming on Scared Monkeys forum this week to discuss some issues and ask for our help.

This is a great opportunity to help the family. He had contacted my many weeks back and I said that SM would be more than willing to lend a hand.

willing to do anything we can!!

Thanks, Red!

Sure!  Anything we can do, I am sure we would all be more than grateful for the opportunity to help in any way!

Please keep us posted.

Me too!!

Thanks Red - it will be great to hear from Paul Reynolds!

Yes indeed! Please do!!

I believe if codebreaker’s words are credible and she/he is privy to the event that encompass the disappearance of an eighteen year old American citizen … for sake of justice for Natalee Holloway and … a measure of closure for her family … she/he should be informing the FBI … the family’s legal representation … not posting on internet forum.

However … I do not believe for one minute that codebreaker is Lazlo.  Lazlo’s theory distances Joran from implication … undermines the motives of an anquished mother … implicates the Mountain Brook students and … implies that Natalee was ultimately responsible for her own demise.  Lazlo’s  theory is reminiscent of Julia Renfro and Angela's article/video ... "The Other Side of the Holloway Case".

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=1290.msg192139;topicseen#msg192139

Janet

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

REFUGEES UNLEASHED

Re: Theories on the Natalee Holloway case?
Lazlo Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 1:10 pm
Could this be what happened to Natalee?

http://p073.ezboard.com/ftheunusualsuspectsfrm7.showMessageRange?topicID=1277.topic&start=41&stop=60

Nuts4,

So this massive cruise ship dock could also be a part of the debt incurred by the government of Aruba in their unrelenting support of and involvement with the tourism industry!

I doubt they had this kind of money just sitting around and would just betcha they borrowed it and now have payments to make to pay it back.

All reasons why they just can't have a tourist girl vanish at the hands of locals.

Just my opinion but I do think this is why the Aruban government supported the cover up of what happened to Natalee.

More and more we see the government go into debt for tourism.  No wonder they can't have anything happen to it as their primary source of income and with all this money to repay.

Something to think about in regard to their lack of initiative in this botched investigation and cover up.  I think it is called a MOTIVE.

.

  TY .. and hope folks are able to help ou any way they can.

    I certainly hope this massive Cruise Ship Dock .......doesn't begin construction, or any "pre"construction activities before Tim and TES get down there! :shock:

    Nobody wants to believe that Reality is from South Africa??  And Dutch? :smt102

Yes, it would be great to actually DO something to help.

Codebreaker says>>  after midnight they
got to Container Harbour, they were at berth #5, this is were they unload
containers import,export all weekdays, they are left open on weekends. so
they can park mega cruise ships if needed, it's 820 ft. long, water is 32 to
36ft. deep, her hands were put into 2.5gal. her head also was put into a 2.5
gal. bucket  the hands were dropped at center of this dock by marker#5.
they travel north est. 200ft.then dropped her head and still went north
and dropped her body #45 buoy or marker, this is a channel and protected
from waves, they could have used a small boat?? oars or ele. motor, very quite..
Beto works part time for Caribbean overseas, very familiar with area.
koen,sander have boating experience.
I hope no one gets offended
                                                    codebreaker
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Caribbean Overseas Ltd.
(Distributor) 
 
Caribbean Overseas Ltd.
Schotlandstraat 47
Oranjestad,
Tel: 297-821064
Fax: 297-828213 
   
 
Major Aruban company that recently purchased the Lee Thai trading company. Supplies all supermarkets in the region. Exclusive distributor for Hormel products in Aruba. 

But Anna is right, the Dutch were the colonizers and now that apartheid is no longer the case, there is an apartheid of another sort and it is all horrible for the residents and especially for those whose land is being taken from them only to be squandered by those who only want power and control, nothing for the citizenry, be they black or white.

Reality
Guest
  Re: John Q. Kelly, Carlos & Charlie's, and the Big Lie in This Case
« Reply #128 on: December 31, 2005, 12:33:08 PM »   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Durban is my home town, born and bred, lived there for 42 years of my 49.

Now for some facts !

The Dutch were not the architects of Apartheid.
The Indian population, who live mostly in and around Durban are certainly not substantial in terms of numbers.
The Netherlands were at the forefront of the anti-apartheid movement over a very long period.
Apartheid was legislated in law in SA.
The racism practiced in the south of the US makes racism in SA look like a Sunday school picnic because it is not legislated but practiced voluntarily and in disguise.
The US and other Western countries used the Sa regime to further their interests in Africa.
 
 Report to moderator    Logged
 

Anna wrote:
Yes, South Africa was originally settled by the Dutch.  Afrikaners are Dutch.  It was only much later the British took it over via Boer Wars, wasn't it?

But the apartheid system of segregation was put in place by the oh so tolerant Dutch.  HA!  That system received universal global condemnation and as such was finally abandoned in fairly recent years.

But the Dutch were the main white settlers of that region historically.  Many have left in recent years of chaos on the entire continent and we even have a few families in this region who have relocated from South Africa to this country.
~~~~

Anna, would this be from where I heard the term "Black Dutch"?TIA

GEL,

I don't really know.  There are of course black people who are Dutch by nationality but it might be like the term Black Irish which only means a regular Irishman with dark features.

And the Pennsylvania Dutch are really German, gets confusing.

But I am not familiar with the term Black Dutch and so don't know.  Rammstein might.  We can ask him when he is on some time.

Reality does have that fixation with Americans and particulary the South.  Sounds much like the fake conversations reported by Joran as though Natalee lived a couple of hundred years ago.

Now Reality is an expert on the South as well.  Seems sort of a pattern.

I wonder if these kind of people know that blacks have been returning to Alabama in very high numbers since the 1970's and that far more move here than move away.  Strange thing for them to do if this claim of his were true.

But as a current resident of South Africa, would he not have a South African passport and prior to that, it was a British colony since it was a Dutch one I do believe.  Independent now, however.

Does anyone else recall it this way?

Where did this "code talker" stuff come from?

From BFN.. Codetalker is a " new ' poster and this stuff just started over there
within the last day or two. Don't know what to make of it. I think I am going to go there now, see if I can grab those posts . Klaasend grabbed them up and they are in the last thread,

Hi Janet - we were talking about a different poste (don't remember the name right now) that posted one post at Scrux to the attention of Jonathan45 then deleted his post.  We weren't talking about the Codebreaker person posting at BFN.

Polemic was the poster....spent some time looking up the definition and searching when discussed earlier.

Thanks Anna..the reason I'd asked is I'm suppose to have "Black Dutch" on my Grandmothers' side of the family. This geneology stuff has never been my "bag" before. I should've looked into this kinda stuff long ago.

Inside South Africa: Brief history of Durban

Read traveler reviews on all South Africa Attractions

Very little is known about the first residents of the area around Durban as there is no written history of the area before it was “discovered” by the Portuguese explorer Vasco da Gama in 1497. Da Gama called the bay Natal, the Portuguese word for Christmas, as he landed on Christmas day.
 
Very little activity took place in Durban until 1842 when the British Lieutenant F. G. Farewell arrived from the Cape Colony with a group of men and established a small settlement. The adverturer Henry Fynn accompanied Farewell and famously befirended Shaka, King of the Zulus by helping him to recover from a battle wound. Shake gave Flynn a 25-mile piece of the coastline in thanks. In 1835, it was decided to build a capital which was named "Durban" after the Cape Governor Sir Benjamin D’Urban.

The Afrikaans Voortrekers who had traveled eastwards from the Cape established the republic of Natalia in 1838 making the town of Pietermaritzburg the capital. The Voortrekkers had many conflicts with the Zulus and British settlers before being forced to accept British rule in 1844.
A sugar cane industry was established in Durban with the Brtish importing thousands of indentured labourers from India to work in the fields. This has today resulted in Durban having a large Indian community.

----------

So the Dutch and British used to fight over the region and guess a person from there could be of either Dutch or British descent.

Thanks 2NJ - yes, Polemic, I had just gotten back from the grocery store and was too lazy to search back.  Thanks!

I don't know what to make of this either.  Interesting to say the least but where has this person been for over two years?

Am curious to see if he/she posts more and contacts the family, etc.

Back in the very early 70's I worked with a man that called himself "black Dutch". 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Dutch

LOL  Story of my life ...

Nevertheless ... I still stand by my position regarding those who anonymously post as if they are privy to the truth ... the truth that can expose those who participated in events of the fateful morning of May 30, 2005 ... the truth regarding those who were involved in the coverup but ... fail to take the necessary steps that can blow this case wide open.  Logic dictates if these posters are credible but refuse to come forward ... they are contributing to the roller coaster ride from H---  that the family has been forced to endure for the past 2 1/2 years.

Janet

Janet

OOPS!!!

My post went throught twice.

Klaas ... could you please delete one of them.

Thanks

Janet

I had family that lived in S.Africa for a decade. Most of the whites are Afrikaners who speak a dutch dialect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afrikaners

Post #18

++++++++++++



This story is that Nadira was fired for fraud and they tried to blame her firing on Natalee Holloway’s case.

ORANJESTAD—- “The firing of Nadira Ramirez, the mother of Statish [sic] and Deepak Kalpoe, has nothing to do with the Holloway-case or the fact that she is the mother of the brothers Kalpoe”, so explains Ike Cohen, director of the Manchebo Hotel.

Hereby Cohen reacts to the expressions of Ramirez in a morning newspaper that says that her firing relates to the Holloway-case. Cohen: “We have given Mrs. Ramirez the reasons for the firings, both verbally and in writing It is not up to us make the reasons for this firing public, since we are of the opinion that it would violate the privacy of Mrs. Ramirez.

The alleged reason that Ramirez was fired would have been fraud. After being off from her work on Monday and Tuesday because of the freeing of her sons Ramirez appeared Wednesday again at her work in the Steakhouse of Manchebo. She was called to the Management, her thinking was that she would have been congratulated. This was not the case. In presence of her highest boss Cohen was she told that she was fired. The alleged fraud would have been committed when she cancelled orders that the clients ate or drank, thus Ramirez would have allegedly put the money in her own pocket. Ramirez denies to have committed fraud and is thinking of fighting her ficanceledring. Ramirez worked nine years in the Steakhouse at Manchebo.

http://tinyurl.com/2fbhct

" like the term Black Irish which only means a regular Irishman with dark features"
Black Irish is a term used for the dark featured Irish people, yes, but the meaning is of one who is decended from the Spanish sailors who came to Ireland and left behind "presents "  for the girls nine months later. Or they could have married them.
I've never heard it used in a nice way, in fact when I've heard it is was quite an insult. Low born, born on the wrong side of the blanket, not pure Celt  etc

http://tinyurl.com/ys8dem

andrea j.
Monday, July 18th, 2005, 08:10 PM
Hey all
I was distressed to learn that Mrs. Kalpoe Ramirez was "fired" from the French Steakhouse.
I wrote to the owner.
Here is the response.
I have no comment
other than to say....too much of a coincidence IMO.


Dear Andrea,
Further to your email of July 09, 2005 we would like to advise you of the following.

News stories were released in the local press on July 08, 2005 in reference to the dismissal at Manchebo Beach Hotel of Mrs. Ramirez and the reasons apparently given by Mrs. Ramirez. We would like to advise you that those reasons for dismissal given by Mrs. Ramirez were incorrect. We would like to let you know that the dismissal of Mrs. Ramirez has nothing to do with the fact that she is the mother of the Kalpoe brothers, who could have been involved with the Natalee Holloway case. We did advise Mrs. Ramirez the reasons of her dismissal both verbally as well as in writing. It is however not up to us to make these reasons publicly known as it is our opinion that this would hinder the right of privacy of Mrs. Ramirez.

We very much appreciate and understand your concerns and would like to let you know that the Aruba law does not allow employers to dismiss an employee from work without an urgent reason. Again, we would like to repeat that the reason for the dismissal of Mrs. Ramirez has absolutely nothing to do with the Natalee Holloway case.

We understand your concern and hope to welcome you again at the French Steakhouse on your return visit to our island.



Cordially,

Ike Cohen

Owner

Edgar Roelofs

Director of Operations

Thanks, Klass. Interesting!

I have only heard people apply the term to themselves as being part Black Irish.  I know there was once a political party Black and Tans or something like that, maybe a revolutionary group but also think they figured in as some point with some.

Not sure what it means exactly nor Black Dutch but it may well refer to dark features as you say, not the typical redheaded, fair skinned coloration of the Irish.  Could be the same for the Dutch as well.

Over the years, these things have a way of taking on a life of their own.

And I was shocked!  Shocked I tell ya when that software OSPainter posted yesterday took my ancestors right back to New York!  Yankees!!!  But maybe neighbors of San's ancestors, too, so that part is OK.

Klaas....do you have time to take one of the 'route maps' that you have done and change it to the way codebreaker says things happened so we can get a visual??

port map

Let me see what I can do.

Thanks Klaas.
Anyone know who this site belongs to?
http://ashvickers.tripod.com/id10.html

Do we know where Flor's house is?

o crap.....I don't

 lives behind "Codemsa".  ??

ummmmmmm...it is a hardware store...brb

Cumana 69, aruba

Ok, I'll see if I can find Cumana on my map.

I can't find a map

Irish History Lesson :

Black and Tans were an official group recruited by the English to fight against the IRA and rebels in Ireland during the home rule upheavals around 1915-1920s.
I have never heard the term Black Irish and there is no one left of my ancestors to ask about it.  I know the very original inhabitants of Ireland were a smaller darker complexioned race and the red haired fair complexion of the now typical Irish and Scots came from their invasions by the Vikings.  I can trace my ancestors in Scotland well back before the days of Mary 1 (Bloody Mary) when they were exiled to Northern Ireland for opposing her Catholic rule.

More on the Black and Tans :

www.historylearningsite.co.uk/black_and_tans.htm

.

Does this help???
http://wikimapia.org/3838263/codemsa_hardware_store

I believe it's in Oranjestad but I can't find it. 

http://www.caribbean-on-line.com/islands/ar/ormap.shtml

Yes but it means I'll have to do 2 maps.  :lol:

o lol

Calling someone " Black Irish " is an insult in these parts.
I've heard it used in the derogatory fashion. ( One family member to another ! ) I did look it up and there are several meanings, and mine was one of them. Friend of mine from Ireland knew the expression and the meaning was the same to him. Cultural thing, I don' t know.  But I digress !  

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-black-irish.htm

What is Black Irish?

The term Black Irish is used in the United States, Great Britain, Australia, and Canada to describe individuals of Irish ancestry who have features which are darker than traditional Irish features. Traditional Irish features include blue or green eyes, fair hair, and pale skin. Irish individuals with dark hair and eyes are often referred to as Black Irish and are understood to have Iberian ancestors.

Many people believe that the dark features evident in the Black Irish come from a dramatic event that occurred over 400 years ago. In 1588, over 20 ships carrying members of the Spanish Armada wrecked on the coast of Ireland. Many of the men were killed in the wrecks. The survivors, however, were of great concern to England which was then under the rule of Queen Elizabeth I. The stranded men were put to death by Irish soldiers and, save the handful of men who fled to Scotland, it is unlikely that any of them ever made it past the beaches of Ireland.

Therefore, it is unlikely that members of the Spanish Armada could have made a strong enough genetic contribution to the people of Ireland giving rise to the Black Irish. It is more likely that a group of Spanish soldiers serving under Irish chiefs around the same time stayed in the country long enough to father children. Others believe that the Black Irish are descendants of a people from the Iberian peninsula who migrated to both Ireland and Britain over 2500 years ago. Recent genetic research has supported this claim.

Black Irish comes from social and political biases as well as genetic history. In the 1800s, many Caucasian people believed that the Irish were somehow related to Africans. Africans and individuals of very dark features were held in distaste and considered to be inferior peoples. Therefore, the term Black Irish was born and upheld. In 1862, John Beddoe, an esteemed ethnologist, published Races of Britain in which he described those of Celtic descent as having features similar to those of African descent.

The term Black Scot is also sometimes used to describe a Scottish person with dark features. However, this term is used much less frequently than the term Black Irish. As with many terms relating to race, depending on the descent and sensitivity of the individual to whom you are speaking the term Black Irish can carry a number of different meanings and connotations.

CODEMSA N.V.
Cumana 69
ORANJESTAD
Tel: (297) 5822235
Fax: (297) 5822295

Maybe you could do a Mapquest, LOL!!!

Not done yet.  This is hard.  Note, Joran's home is actually off the map and so it 2K's and Flor's house.  Flor lives closer to 2K and north of them. :wink:

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub2/Codebreakercopy.jpg)

My mother was fair (milk white complexion), dark haired & brown eyed (Irish/German)....my Dad, fair, blue eyed, toehead to dark (so I'm told, Italian).  They often had discussions when I was young, and Dad would tease Mom asking if she really had a little Spaniard mixed in.  I really know as many Irish with dark hair & eyes as I do blue & blond.  The term Black Irish never came up......I did hear Black Protestant in my youth, but didn't know what it meant until I looked it up today.  Just remembering things heard as a kid....never too late to learn something.

I am sort of serious.  What if you put the dock address in as your address and the Hardware store as your destination, would it not do a map and driving directions for you?

Looks good so far! Thanks! I think I would have to question the part where he goes from the pond to Marriott to wash off blood...if one is bloody near a pond....ummmm DUH...why not wash it off at the pond??

Last time I tried Mapquest didn't work for Aruba.

CODETALKER'S TIMELINE IS OFF

1:00 per codetalker they left CnC's.

1.15 AM - At approximately 01.15 hours, we walked from Carlos & Charlies to the outside.(Joran 6/9/05 statement)
1:15 AM - we walked with our guest to Deepak’s car. I with my brother in the front of his car. (Satish 5/31/05 statement)

It is 15 minutes from Joran's house to CnC's. (source: Greta interview Part 1)

1:20 per codetalker to drive from CnC's to Salinja Pond and kill Natalee.
1:45 per codetalker to drive from Pond to drop off Joran at home. (25 minutes)

per Joran from his home to beach is 5 MINUTES!

It is 10 to 15 minutes from Kalpoe house to Joran's.

At 2 in the morning, no traffic, it would not take that long.

No towels at the pond!

 :smt026

Finding the Rainbow connection is important

How green was my mother --- that's another story for another time as Easywriter would say. Heh Heh.

my family has a huge Irish hertiage and I have always heard the term black Irish and I still don't know what it means....

what are we talking about though?  I am so lost!

It started out being about the case them ballooned after that.  Probably not important anyway. :wink:

Nrs Red,
We were just trying to determine the nationality of one of the posters on another forum, one who seems rather anti-American/Southerner, nic Reality.

He says he lives in S. Africa so could be British or Dutch heritage at work there.

I don't know Anna...I kind of got side tracked...ummm...
The prosecutor who resigned early on 'amalin flanegan' and the girl questioned in line #78 here http://tinyurl.com/2bwlkw 'Gilayla Flanegin'
sure makes me go hmmmmmmm...especially now that codebreaker ALSO mentions a girl named Gilayla. This is just all too weird...

I think we're moving toward off-topic....but it started with Black Dutch and evolved.

That's it!!

Holding my breath one more time, can't wait to hear how I can help out again. Got my Tshirt and pic from TES. Would have rathered them made the search that they'd been promising for over a year.  I'm rairly well off-and this is a cause I'll support to the end.  Apparently I need to scrutinize better. 

I promise you this does not involve $$$ - and they are STILL planning on the search Indy, but I also cannot divilgue all that I know about what happened and why... it's not off, just postponed....

where is that faith???

One of Joran's friends on his tickle site was Gil. 

No search isn't worth it, IndyDan, and the search down in the Aruba area will probably be in late November, early December when the hurricane season is over, unless something else happens in the meantime.  We're all better off than those who are missing.

        Where I come, from NYC Metropolitan Area, Black Irish is not an insult....it is merely used to describe an Irish person with  dark hair and eyes.   Janet is correct, they probably trace back to Spanish or Irish/Spanish ancestry.

       Black Protestant IS an insult!!    Never heard of Black Dutch.  Pa. Dutch = German (Deutch is the word for German in German)

      Lace Curtain Irish IS an insult for Irish....it's like calling them shanty!!!


      As NY was only Irish, Italian, German and Jewish when I was growing up I know these "useless facts" :roll:

Well, well....on Aruba, you either know everyone or you don't....Nut44X4 chugging right along scooping up all this information.

     No, he didn't say he lives there NOW, he lives in London now.  He was born and raised there, but emmigrated,immigrated to England I guess 6 years ago.

This search has been in mix for over a year, I asked TES in 2006/Aug how I could donate to the Natalee relife fund spicifically and got no response. It was after one of Dana's shows when Tim said it was a matter of money.

Maybe Flanegin is a common name in Aruba?  :roll:

http://getagripmonkey.blogspot.com/2005/11/investigative-team-will-get-new-faces.html

11.14.2005
Investigative team will get new faces
Very dirty handling of the Holloway case in the prosecution’s office
DIARIO Aruba
11/14/2005

ORANJESTAD(AAN): Information DIARIO investigated the whole weekend is what happened with the letter which was sent directly to the attorney general at the Public Ministry by the Holloway and Twitty families to remove those mentioned by name, those in the investigative team orchestrated by the very same Public Ministry.

Dave Holloway, in a secret meeting with prosecutor Flanegin: on the basis of information we have continued to find and search for, about the people in our own Public Ministry, we have been able to uncover that Dave Holloway had a secret meeting with prosecutor Flanegin who apparently got the green light from the attorney general to speak with Dave Holloway in secret.

Now he lives in London.  But I'm sure he speaks Dutch!   

I think Flanigin might be a common name but is Gilayla?  I never heard it before but maybe it is.

Yes, Nuts4, it is just too intertwined.  Now I wonder if the one who resigned did in fact know something and resigned because she saw there was never any intention to prosecute the guilty because of the massive governement debt that was dependent on tourist income for repayment.

http://www.hi5.com/friend/34627871--Gil--Profile-html

NOPE.....THIS IS HER>>>
http://gilayla.hyves.nl/?&pageid=5CTB9NMF18W84SGKC
Name: Gilayla Flanegin

SO have we found any pictures of Joran from this summer?

I'm sorry, IndyDan.... I misunderstood your post...

nope.....and we sure have looked, lol....right klaas? lmao.

That doesn't look like the girl I'm thinking of.

I haven't had time to look the last few days.  I looked over hundreds of photos though and nothing.  Looked in the Netherlands, Curacao, Bonaire and Aruba.  Nothing!

I know y'all have been on the case, I was just wondering.... it's *funny* how quiet it has been now that julia et al were told (it's my opinion that they were) to STHU....

Prosecutor........mother perhaps of one Gilayla??
Well...I need to turn in. Goodnight all...tomorrow is another day. We will find the truth.

Good nite!  yes, we will find the truth!

Yes, that's her!

Gil - Amanda - Joran, from Joran's Zorpia site:

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub2/GilAmandaJoran.png)

Amanda - Gil - Satish - Joran - Flor, from Joran's Zorpia site:

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub2/AmandaGilFlorSatishJoran.jpg)

Mrs. Red - Renfro hasn't been posting in any "open" forum either.  Nothing at RU for a long long time.  Very little from MF as well.

wonder if it is the calm before the storm???

I was just going to say the same thing mrs. red

She looks very, very young.  And nice.  Doesn't look like the usual girls who attract the PIMPS and has some religious posts on that site.  And note the photos of her friends wearing winter coats and stuff, maybe taken in The Netherlands or some where other than Aruba.

FYI -  I know there's been some question as to when this photo was taken at Joran's house.  According to the camera/film properties the photo was taken in 2005.  The question is was it taken before Joran went to Kia or after?  The question comes up because he is at his home with the girls, Satish and Freddy.

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub2/AmandaGilFlorSatishJoran.jpg)


Aperture f/4.0
Camera make Samsung
Camera model Digimax 300
Comment Samsung Techwin
Date/Time 2005
Exposure program (auto)
Exposure bias 5.90
Exposure time 0.033 s (1/30)
Flash used Yes
Focal length 7.0mm
ISO equiv. 200
Jpeg process Baseline
Jpeg Quality normal
Metering Mode center weight
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This is just my opinion.  After that police car conversation with the Kalpoes and Joran and Joran threatening them and they laughting at him would Satish be stupid enough to go to that house where the murder was committed.  They ratted on Paulus according to Joran.  Satish would not go anywhere without Deepak especially to the Sloot dump.  This is why I think it was before.  It was just another party at the Sloots with Joran and Friends.

San - I know what you mean.

I agree, much more likely this pic is pre-crime.

Freddy take this pic? IIRC, he is at this gathering also?

Yes Freddy was there and most likely took the photo above:

(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/28/47503063_f3b5ed4e2c.jpg)

Lightened the first one up a bit so you can see Satish's hat:

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub2/AmandaGilFlorSatishJoran2.jpg)

I wonder why the girls are in bikinis and the guys in full street clothing.

Because they're stupid and are hanging out with known rapists.

However ... Reality claimed in this following open letter that he lived was an American living in Aruba. 

Janet

___________


BFN
Quote from: Reality on June 02, 2006, 06:54:38 AM

Dear Curves,

I am truly saddened that you have allowed your fine organization to be swayed to a very small minority of hate mongers & xenophobes who for the most part have never even set foot in Aruba let alone even heard of Aruba prior to May 31st, 2005.

You’re pulling of the Aruba sweepstakes speaks volumes to a company being swayed by lies & fabrications.

As an American citizen living in Aruba for many years now let me give you a perspective that none of the “protest” emails can even come close to.

Aruba is by far the safest island destination in the Caribbean.
Aruba’s judicial system is based on Dutch law, world renowned as a fair and balanced system.

Aruba’s people are highly educated individuals where most here speak at least 3 to 5 languages.

Aruba has had ONE missing person in the last year, and that person may not even be a victim of a crime.

You have done your valued customers a disservice by pulling your Aruba sweepstakes by depriving them the opportunity to truly experience what an island paradise really is.

If you would like more information about the real Aruba please email at the following and I will be more than happy to set the record straight with facts not the fiction you have based your decision on to pull your Aruba Sweepstakes.

I wonder.  Was it a pool party or a photo shoot?

Oh, wow!  What an imagination.  The drop out rate in Aruba is just tremendous and the educational system really poor.

So now he is an American living in Aruba? 

Unreal!  He really does change facts to suit his need at the moment.

Paul Reynolds ... Natalee's uncle ... implied that Paulus was implicated in Joran, Deepak and Satish's original statements.  Considering that Deepak and Satish's May 31, 2005 declarations do not implicate Paulus ... I would assume that there were statements taken on May 30, 2005.

Janet


Paul Reynolds
'Scarborough Country'
August 26, 2005

REYNOLDS: Well, we certainly think they know more, but we think all three are involved. We think Joran and Deepak and Satish are all involved.  And, you know, we still think the father was at least involved in the cover-up. And that‘s based on the statements that the boys gave in the beginning.

why do these ARUBA apologists always have to BRING up the idea that BECAUSE some people can speak 3 differnet languages that somehow that means they are extremely intelligent


Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz   


it defies logic

it makes no sense


i know people that speak 3 languages and they are numb as a pounded thumb


NEWS FLASH

speaking more than 1 language does make you intelligent  :cool:

BINGO  :cool:

Aruba may need to watch allowing Venesuelan investors as Dictators keep laws at their own whim.  The Aruban people would do well to keep Chavez and his people at bay as they are not up to any good.           jackb

Klaas,

I saw this posted at BFN.  Could this be a link to Andres Meneses? 


Interesting name in this find:

Friday, August 12 th 2005
Review: Oscar Hernández
In Aruba there's always something to do on Fridays, but for shore you have to make a stop in Carlos and Chalies, like we did last Friday 12 th , every day in Carlos and Charlies is a special day. We arrived before midnight, just the perfect moment to star the party in Aruba , ready to have fun and dance al night long to the best hits of the moment, from Salsa to Reggeaton with the music that local DJ Andres was playing.

www.guiafashion.com/.../internacional/aruba.html

Link: DJ Andres Ceja (http://www.guiafashion.com/fashion/internacional/23-05-04rodeoparty/pag2.htm)

Friday 17th of June
CARLOS & CHARLIES
When you hear the word “PARTY”, your mind automatically takes you to Carlos & Charlies. Saturday June 18 we met with a very animated crowd enjoying the variation of music which was in charge of DJ Andres.
http://www.guiafashion.com/fashion/internacional/aruba.html

Possibly a pic of DJ Andres Here (http://www.guiafashion.com/fashion/internacional/18-06-05carloscharlies/pag2.htm)

Friday 17th of June
CARLOS & CHARLIES

Review : Ramses Aaron
When you hear the word “PARTY”, your mind automatically takes you to Carlos & Charlies. Saturday June 18 we met with a very animated crowd enjoying the variation of music which was in charge of DJ Andres. It was the best way to start a Saturday night. The streets of Aruba were busy with party animals enjoying the nightlife in Aruba . Carlos & Charlies is definitely a place to be on weekends.


(http://www.guiafashion.com/fashion/internacional/18-06-05carloscharlies/27.jpg)

http://www.guiafashion.com/fashion/internacional/18-06-05carloscharlies/pag2.htm

VMS, looks like we're on the same page.   :lol:

That makes three of us.  lol

I can't really tell if your link is for an event at Carlos and Charlie's.

The DJ Andres Ceja was responsible for the wonderful music and made locales and tourist dance al night long. And what better host, Carlos and Charlie were there to make shore that things felt great and all night the party was just starting.

So are you guys thinking this DJ Andres is actually Andres Meneses?  It sure would make more sense.

Duh!  I guess I was too busy looking at pics and should have spent more time reading.  Thanks.

vms found the last name of the CnC DJ.  It's not Meneses.

An interesting 'astrological' reading  :-|

http://forensicastrology.blogspot.com/2007/07/natalee-holloway_17.html

Tuesday, July 17, 2007
Natalee Holloway
 

AMERICAN STUDENT MISSING IN ARUBA

Natalee Holloway has become a famous cold case. She went missing on a student trip to Aruba and has not been seen since May 30, 2005. As an "Forensic" Astrologer, I cannot resist doing a chart for the night of her disappearance. This is what I found:

At the time of her disappearance Pisces was rising and Sagittarius was on the midheaven. The ruler of the chart, Neptune, was posited in the twelfth house along with the Moon and Uranus. Mars is at the Ascendant and Pluto is at the Midheaven, squared.
From this configuration I can ascertain:

1. THERE WAS AN ARGUEMENT WHICH BECAME PHYSICAL IN NATURE.(Mars)
2. NATALEE STARTED THIS FIGHT.
3. THIS BECAME A VERY EMOTIONALLY CHARGED CONFRONTATION RAPIDLY (Moon)
4. IT WAS NOT PLANNED AND JUST "CAME OUT OF THE BLUE", A TOTAL SURPRISE(Uranus)
5. IT IS KNOWN THAT SHE WAS DRINKING.. HOWEVER, THERE COULD HAVE BEEN DRUGS INVOLVED AS WELL, PERHAPS NOT TO HER KNOWLEDGE (Neptune in 12th)
6. THE OUTCOME WOULD RESULT IN A VERY PUBLIC AIRING OF THE SITUATION(Pluto)
7. THE SITUATION ITSELF WOULD REMAIN A MYSTERY
8. SHE IS BURIED ON THE ISLAND NEAR THE WATER IN AN AREA WHICH WAS FRESHLY DUG UP PRIOR TO HER DEATH(Uranus)
9. THIS GRAVE NEAR THE WATER IS ALSO NEAR ONE OF THE FOLLOWING: A RADIO STATION, AN AIRPORT, AN AIRPLANE HANGER, AN ELECTRICAL TOWER, A POWER STATION, A NEW MARINA, PUBLIC SHOWERS OR BATHROOMS, A PLACE WHERE DRUGS ARE USED OR MADE
THIS PLACE WAS RECENTLY DUG UP FOR SOME OTHER PURPOSE AND WAS CHOSEN BECAUSE OF THAT

At the time of her disappearance, the following other planetary aspects appeared:
Seventh house ruler Mercury in the third house in Gemini
Mercury placed in conjuction with the Sun, also in the third house
Saturn disposits the Moon from the fifth house and the ruler of the midheaven, Jupiter, is posited in the seventh house retrograde
From these configurations, I can ascertain:

1. HER COMPANIONS AT THE TIME WERE TWO YOUNG MALES (Mercury & Sun) WHO WERE PERHAPS TWINS, AT THE LEAST BROTHERS (Third House).
2. ONE MALE WAS YOUNGER (Mercury) AND THE SECOND WAS OLDER (Sun) AND THEY WERE VERY CLOSE (conjuction)
3. THERE WAS A SEXUAL OR ROMANTIC ATTRACTION (Fifth house) BUT SOMEHOW A WET RAG WAS DROPPED ON THE SITUATION (Saturn)
4. IT WILL BE 5 YEARS (2010) BEFORE HER LOCATION IS FINALLY DISCOVERED (Jupiter retrograde).

FOR ASTROLOGERS WHO WISH TO INVESTIGATE THIS AS WELL:
NATALEE WENT MISSING AT 1:00 AM ON MAY 30, 2005 IN ARUBA
NATALEE WAS BORN ON OCT 21, 1986

Posted by Caroline at 6:26 AM     

(http://www.24ora.com/images/stories/aug%2026/hos%20spaans%20lagoen/hos%20spaans%20lagoen.jpg)

Water spout in Aruba yesterday!  :shock:

Hos feroz pafo di rif serca di De Palm Island        
Sunday, 26 August 2007 

Diadomingo atardi Aruba a nota precencia di diferente hos specialmente na nos costanan. Esaki a causa bastante panico den e comunidad cu e miedo cu esaki lo dal riba tera. Riba e imagen aki por mira un di e hosnan net patras di e rif patras di De Palm Island. Click read more pa mira e imagen mas grandi.

http://www.24ora.com/content/view/1950/5/

 

They have a video of the water spout at the 24ora site now:

http://www.24ora.com/content/view/1957/5/

Sharon,

Interesting.  Also good that this was just posted in July, 2007, as it means people are still following this tragedy and paying attention.

.

Sharon, that was an interesting find on the astrology.
Not sure I have much faith in that but a lot of folks do just like Psychics.

I thought these were photos taken after the Big Sporter Baby was let out of KIA but just prior to his departure for the Neverlands.

How do these messages get so screwed up an intertwined when one "quotes?"

Dugga spread out the quotes so they would be easier to read.  Because of that the bottom of the quote is further down than it used to be and people are posting within the quote.  You just need to scroll down a little further and make sure you are below the quote tag.

Good Morning!  this is very interesting.....but the 5 years before her location is discovered is really depressing!!

Tyler, I have noticed sometimes people start typing their quote before the last quote sign [/quote]

[/b]
[/quote]


I have been trying to remember to scroll to the last "[/quote]" ...then put cursor at the end of that and hit space bar a couple of times to lower my post. Sometimes I4get though, lol. Anyway...I have been messing around with some photos and just realized I CAN BLOCK OUT FACES ! LOL! I can also cut and paste a photo piece too...hehe. Looky here>> I put Jaime in the HE photo, lol.

That is good to hear.  I'm not here posting, but justice for Natalee and an end to the deception is still in my prayers. 

Have a great day, Monkeys! 

 :cool:

Ringo wrote:
Two bloody towels and a key card. Don't know who they belong to.
Thats the "word".

Are those being tested? What about the rumored condo that JVDS supposedly has access to in the racquet club area?

http://www.nataleeholloway.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=1482&PN=1&get=last
_____________________________________________________________

Eduardo Boeti


Kafka: Mon Apr 24, 2006 10:11 am
Dutch radio just said it's a 20 year old guy

http://www.refugeesunleashed.net/viewtopic.php?t=1175&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0


WidgetTheMidget Says: April 24th, 2006 at 1:04 pm
EB ………Could Be ……..

Eduard ( Dachi ) Brete ………………….

WidgetTheMidget Says: April 24th, 2006 at 1:18 pm
Eduard Is Friend To Jamie ……..& Quincy ……..& Joran …..& Koen
& Sander …………….

http://www.scaredmonkeys.com/2006/04/23/aruba-natalee-holloway-comment-post-20/#comments

carolinagurl138
Newbie
Newbie
Joined: 14 July 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 31
Posted: 24 July 2005 at 11:29am | IP Logged Quote carolinagurl138
I talk to Koen G and he said yea that was him.
Message:
On 7/21/2005, 9:14:48 PM, Gennifer wrote:

Hey...I was looking at some of my friend's pics and i asked her who the boy in the blue was with a drink and she said it was you...it was from a birthday party. I was just wandering if it was you if so i was just wanting to chat with you! Can't wait to here from you.

hey...yeah thats me..at my friends b-day party..so yeah if you wanna add me on hotmail its..koeng61@hotmail.com

carolinagurl138
Newbie
Newbie
Joined: 14 July 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 31
Posted: 24 July 2005 at 10:26pm | IP Logged Quote carolinagurl138
He already wrote me back...I am still working on him trying to get him to talk...

On 7/24/2005, 11:35:28, Gennifer wrote:

I bet you are tired of the attention your getting down there....Has it been rough on you? I seen you in some pictures with Joran too...I know that has to suck..you know haveing a buddy that you know didn't do anything...being the main suspect in everyone's eyes? I had the same thing happen with me and one of my friends..but of course it wasn't as major or all over the T.V. Well i got to go but if you ever want to talk to vent it out. Let me know...I almost think the whole thing is just silly. what about you?



yeah a little but now im in america doing fun thing to get my head out of this situation...but i would like to get to know you better and stuf...i also think its verry silly i know this guy for over 14 years now and he would never hurt any girl so i dont know why he's still locked up

SILLY?  He thinks it's silly!

Joran thought the boycott was stilly also. :roll:

Silly, perhaps.  Did it work?  You bet your sweet a**.  We must keep the pressure to keep it working.  Let the Aruban rats and hagbags know we can outlast them.

I think there are some clues throughout the investigation in the timing of events and who implicated who. I will always be suspicious of what happened to this man as well as Pitbull. Where is the PV of LVR on june 16th 2005?

Thursday, June 16
??? am............Steve G. Croes goes to police station and is questioned
???..................Steve G. Croes goes to work @ Tattoo boat
???..................Lorenzo van Rijn questioned by police
????................Max Arendsz questioned by police

Friday, June 17
6:30 am.........Steve Gregory Croes arrested

Saturday, June 18
8:00 am.........Rene van Heyningen found murdered “Columbian necktie”
.......................van Heyningen’s body dumped in government cemetery
???..................Paulus & Anita van der Sloot questioned by police for 5 hours
???..................Sergio Gomez reported missing

My focus is, and shall remain, on the main suspects until there is some concrete evidence other than blog rumor to look elsewhere.

Those suspects remain J2K and are the ones to this day named by KLPD as the prime suspects.  I think Joran van der Sloot, the two Kalpoes and Paulus are the ones responsible for whatever happened to Natalee as well as her subsequent disappearance.

I think most things that take the focus off those suspects are diversions as I have looked for over two years and can't make a contact to anybody who is not named as a suspect, including the other PIMPS named as suspects.

JMO

I hav no idea the involvement of anyone other than J2K, but appears there must be someone/something bigger involved, thus all the coverup.  No, I am not sure it stems from a rave party at LVR but it never hurts to leave no stone unturned.  There is a reason why all the island is defending these PIMPS and it is not because of Joran's good looks or the social standing of the Kalpoes.

I can't fathom any young man or boy using the word 'silly'. I know mine never has. I think it is weird.

It seems they all assume aliases, sign of a criminal culture, and I would not be surprised and suspect this is the case.

oops...4got to add...
Not that there is anything wrong with that ...  :wink: :roll:

You have stated your opinion 1,000 times on LVR and it is noted. I also feel that JK2 and PVDS are the main suspect but I believe LVR is involved and I will always research every avenue I have with everyone and anyone who is involved with Natalees dissapearance. I dont think LVR is disinformation and if anything they have tried to distance him from this case.MO

Interesting observation.  The timing is what makes it even more interesting.  I wish we had a pic of the macho woman who as able to lift a dead man's body into a truck and lift it out of the truck later at the cemetery.

I think Gomez was eventually located wasn't he?

Many things throughout this case disturb me and just one more was added to the list today...Heli made a post a BFN. I am sure it is Heli from RU. That disturbs me.  :smt074 just had to get that off my chest.

is there a link to the codebreaker theory or whatever it is?  Sorry, but I have have looked here, there and everywhere..

Gomez was located and macho woman I believe implicated two other men who had helped but no one else was arrested. Both families complained to the media and after that arrests were made. Extremely suspicious murders..IMO

It is easier to read like this, rather than at the site. It was posted at BFN.

Codebreaker @ BFN Natalee Holloway-Open Discussion
Reply #508 on: August 25, 2007, 11:41:34 AM
the bruise was caused by a wreck on his bike , while talking to 2ks, while returning from Flor's house at2{26am with a key, to take Natalee's body to.IMO.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Reply #512 on: August 25, 2007, 04:15:48 PM
Hi:
I've never written on any blogs before, but I want to get my opinion on Natalee's murder and her location, based on facts only. I can tell you
now, she was in 4 different places, and I also know the addresses, and
buoy numbers, of these places.
She was murdered at Salinja Pond at around 1:20 am, then hided in barb bushes, jvds is the one that killed her with a rock to her head, she bled
profusely, this is how jvds got blood on his legs and shoes, and how he transfered blood in 2ks backseat area, that's why they stopped at Marriott
entrance, so jvds could wash off blood, 2ks waited for him, then dropped
jvds at home at1:45 am, 2ks got home at 2:05am, to pick up tools to bury
her with. but before they got to jvds's house, jvds disposed of shoes in
vicinty of Fermins Bar. When jvds told pvds what happen, pvds called Guido
at work, and hired him to get rid of the body, that's when guido called andre,
to bring his truck,they would be paid well, jvds called Flor to give him a key
to French's Steakhouse, 55 J.E.Irausquin blvd. this is in vicinity of Abhambra
pvds loaded jvds bike in back of jeep, and dropped jvds off at Flor's house with
bike, pvds headed for ATMs until 4:00am.. will continue later
codebreaker
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bleachedblack asks: Can you please tell us more about the purpose of this key? Why would they need to go to this Steakhouse?
Reply #519 on: August 25, 2007, 06:39:31 PM
codebreaker says:
because it was closed, and has a walk in cooler, plus most likey closed on mon.
also the body was removed mon. night.

Reply #532 on: August 25, 2007, 10:16:43 PM
When jvds was dropped off at Flor's house, he picked up a key and
rode his bike back, at 2:26am he called 2ks to meet him at the pond
at this time he had a wreck on the bike,this explains the static that dk heard plus the bruise seen next day by his classmates. sk was driving, when jvds pulled up on his bike, sk jumped in back so  jvds could tell dk the plan. and they can't go because his car was too noisy, at this time around 2:35am, the gardener
drove by, at 2:40am, guido and andre pull up, 2ks head for home, at 2:45am
the body is loaded.2:45am jvds sends textmsg to 2ks that they were on their
way(the barb bushes was reason for scratches) at 3:00am the 2ks get home.
at 3:05am dk gets textmsg that body was delivered, at 3:11am jvds sends
textmsg to Flor telling her same messg.
                    Meetings
The first meeting was held at the Racquet club at 6:00pm mon,,5/30/05,
with Koen,Sander,Flor,Freddy,Amanda, Gilayla, so they could get their stories
straight, and when they would be paid, Koen and Sander were told to help
pvds steal the Crab Trap from Fishermans Huts later that night.
The second meeting was 8:00pm that night at Radisson Casino,with DK,
guido, Andre,Beto, also to get stories straight, also when they get paid..
also after 11:00pm pick up Natalee's body, and return jvds's house.
This is when DK,pvds,jvds, were burying the body next to the house, that
they were interrupted by Beth& Jug, and were sent on a wild goose chase,
so Dk and pvds could get the car moved, so nobody would have an excuse
to enter the prop. when the body was buried next to his house the two dogs were
digging up the body, jvds didn't go to school next day, body had to be moved inside, and put in freezer, prepare for final place. this also explains
new patio cement work
                         Alibis and Movies
2ks were seen cleaning the car on 5/30/05 next morning, but couldn't
removed all blood, he took his car to Automobile enterprise, to get it
detailed and replace seats if needed, then he went back to Pond area.
and police the area, (he was seen doing this by a witness, for T.J. Ward)
he took the C&C logo cups placed by entrance Marriott, drove to Arahi beach
to mark his spot(urinate), then took her under pants,condoms, tape, and
wrappers from condoms to Bird Sanctuary, to mis lead police.
jvds protrays himself after Richard Kuklinski (the Ice Man of N.J.) when you read the police car tapes,he calls the 2KS Friend after each sentence, and
at the end tells them he's going to kill them. he also kelp bodies in freezers.
this was his MO. he also was a sociopath
S. Croes is not involved, when he heard pvds had deep pockets, and paying
all the Pimps, he jump on the bandwagon.
2ks don't know where's Natalee's body is at..
why did pvds send two younger sons to Florida, when he got arrested??
On 6/3/05 fri. at 9:00pm Beto, koen, Sander, met at jvds's apt., and eat
pizza, and played cards, getting ready for a boat ride,after midnight they
got to Container Harbour, they were at berth #5, this is were they unload
containers import,export all weekdays, they are left open on weekends. so
 they can park mega cruise ships if needed, it's 820 ft. long, water is 32 to
36ft. deep, her hands were put into 2.5gal. her head also was put into a 2.5
gal. bucket  the hands were dropped at center of this dock by marker#5.
they travel north est. 200ft.then dropped her head and still went north
and dropped her body #45 buoy or marker, this is a channel and protected
from waves, they could have used a small boat?? oars or ele. motor, very quite..
Beto works part time for Caribbean overseas, very familiar with area.
koen,sander have boating experience.
I hope no one gets offended
                                                    codebreaker
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Reply #538 on: August 25, 2007, 11:05:06 PM
the family was informed by me in dec. of this location, but I
didn't have the marker numbers, my in fo comes from the liar of aruba,
and even they can't lie without 10% truth, it's easier to search a channel
or dock than an ocean, if it was your daughter what would you do.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
THAT"S FLOR she is the weak link, without a doubt???
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Rtst1 asks...
According to your account, Beto, Koen & Sander are the ones who would have knowledge of the bouy or marker numbers.  Was anyone else with them at Container Harbor...?

Reply #545 on: Today at 12:16:19 AM » 

codebreaker answers
only jvds that I know of..
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Anna states:
I don't think Joran wanting to be like the Iceman meant that he was a planned executioner, just that he admired this monster's detachment and ability to kill without emotion.

Sort of like doing so then going home and looking up soccer scores and watching porn, I guess.  Going to school next day and giving the appearance of total normalcy.

Also the use of cold storage.

The ability to dissociate from the crime.  Unfortunately for Joran, I think that is exactly how many see him.  I know I do.

Reply #589 on: Today at 01:40:11 PM
you hit the nail right on the head, this was a planned rape only..codebreaker
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!!! :smt052

AAhhhh I remember this conversation now  ...thanks Kermit...BTW...where is the Widget????

You're welcome. Going out 4 a while, bbl.

Well, then I certainly won't trouble you by stating my opinion again.  Sorry to have done so but thought we were all free to do that.  Evidently not. 

Why should you state your opinion but mine is 1,000 times?  I don't care who or what you research but would appreciate the right to my own opinions as well. 

But I will keep mine to myself in the future rather than have any more of your nasty remarks about mine.  Guess I can go crawl back under that rock you told me to, huh?

Have there been anymore postings from codebreaker?  I have mixed emotions about these posts.....If they are correct this person should be talking to the FBI and the IMMEDIATE family members.....if this is someone's idea of a joke...he/she is one sick individual...and we know there are some real sickies that have surfaced due to Natalee's case......I'd love to see the FACTS that this is based on......it just seems that it's ODD that this comes out when TES is preparing for a search.  I hope Debbie has checked to see where this person is posting from.

Every time I bring up Lorenzo you have to state that you think he is not involved. We hear it over and over again. It is your opinion and that is great but it doesnt mean that you have to mention that every single time. I will continue my research on him just like others research shango or whatever else they think is worth looking into. We all know your opinion on the matter and its the end of the discussion. I am not going to fight with you.

SunnyinTX,

As far as I know there have not been anymore posts from this person.  Debbie at BFN has asked that they contact her or the family.  So far nothing else.

Since none of us know what happened to Natalee....I don't think anyone's opinion is to be negated...not matter how many times it's stated...I go from thinking that half of Aruba is involved to thinking....it's pj2k and cover up by people who owe paulus,  and anita's connections in the Netherlands..JMO..I wouldn't discount checking anyone out...but almost all we really have are our owns opinions based on the very FEW FACTS we have....and no one person's opinion is more important than anyone else's in my book.....

and please no crawling under rocks...all kinds of icky things can be found under rocks...bugs and snakes!!!

thanks Truth....I don't read at BFN so thanks for the update.....

Has anyone read this book??

“For Natalee … A Community of Love” is a 55-page book written by Donna M. Greene

Just in case I carry this around with me to all the sites.

(http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r139/songluva/shield.jpg)

No...where can we find a copy?

codebreaker just showed up at BFN:

codebreaker
Newbie

Posts: 9


    Re: OPEN DISCUSSION - NATALEE - AUG. 2007
« Reply #689 on: Today at 03:41:57 PM »   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ju Ju:
I never said she was dismembered, her hands, were removed,
and her head also, I believe this was Identity reasons only.
 

???  Isn't that dismembered?

If it happened to me that's what I would call it.

Apparently codebreaker has emailed Debbie.

Yeah, just saw that. 

It is to me. :-?

I asked if the information had been shared with authorities.  Here's the response:

codebreaker
Newbie

Posts: 11


    Re: OPEN DISCUSSION - NATALEE - AUG. 2007
« Reply #692 on: Today at 03:54:39 PM »   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
truthseeker2:
with the family yes.
Authorities no.

What ever that is I want one!  LOL

I am not sure....a friend emailed me and asked me if I had read it....I had no knowledge of it...so I thought I'd ask here....I search and see if I can find it.

was this near any of the suspected dumping grounds?

And??????

lol.  it's my shield!

I am posting this here becaue this is what I THINK happened to Natalee...Klaas please move it if you think it belongs someplace else.....



A coroner's inquest into the 2002 death of Dianne Brimble on board the P&O liner Pacific Sky has shocked Australia with its graphic descriptions of her treatment by a group of men she met on board. The inquest has heard that Brimble, 42, died of an overdose of gamma hydroxybutyrate, a "date rape" drug also known as fantasy, mixed with a high blood alcohol level.
 http://www.cruisebruise.com/Dianne_Brimble.html

LOL...OK...I do need one for sure!!!

http://www.amazon.com/Natalee-Holloway-Case-Isaac-Chin/dp/1893846679

Red also  had a front page on it...I don't know how I missed it...except it was during the time I was moving....


http://www.scaredmonkeys.com/2006/06/25/a-new-book-for-natalee-holloway-a-community-of-love-by-donna-m-greene/

Thanks!  I'll have to get a copy of that.

WOW.....codebreaker was at BFN, I asked a question and got BLASTED for it   

I am curious if this "codebreaker" is on Aruba. I hope they are telling the truth about contacting the family with the info. Can't say that I would blame them for not telling the ALE. JMO

if not, then I have no clue what is

maybe in Aruba, if you dismember a body to conceal the identity then it is really dismemberment.  Cuz yanno, its ok if it was for the purpose to cover up your crimes.

^^^ is NOT really dismemberment

Does anyone think this codebreaker could be Deepak?  It is just interesting that they have another continuance in the court case-maybe he feels he will get his money (maybe pressure is being applied to pay) sooner if he proves he didn't kill and hide her.

http://www.m-w.com/medical/dismember
dismember
One entry found for dismember.
Main Entry: dis·mem·ber
Pronunciation: (primarystress)dis-primarystressmem-bschwar
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): dis·mem·bered; dis·mem·ber·ing /-b(schwa-)rieng/
: to cut off or disjoin the limbs, members, or parts of
- dis·mem·ber·ment /-bschwar-mschwant/ noun

No disrespect toward Natalee intended. 

but you didnt use the Aruban dictionary  :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I hate to say this, but I have a Lorenzo question.  Why did the possibility of him being Joran's half brother, even get mentioned.  I understand how it got mentioned, but why??  If it is true, would this prevent Lorenzo from testifying against Joran (or visa versa), since they are "brothers"??

hi Blue Moon.....I don't think so..don't ask me why...casue I can't give you an answer other than...I just don't think so.....I am beginning to think it's just another sicko...and I hope I am wrong....truth said codebreaker had emailed Debbie...so I am sure she will get some info as to whether this person is a nut or not

Hummm that is a good thought Buckeye.  I wonder if they are related at all now.  Could they be cousins.

Buckeye - good question and I don't have the answer. 

Thought this article was interesting concerning Natalee's disappearance and parents concern about their children being abducted/murdered that they would now consider life insurance for them.

 http://www.prweb.com/releases/2005/8/prweb270657.htm

This article came out in August 2005.

I wonder what size shoe he wears,  Anna - any idea?




 :smt082

WHOA - NOBODY MOVE.  DONT DO ANYTHING!!!!


I can see my avatar  :lol: :lol:

DOH!  :2doh:

And just like that, it is gone again  :smt093

FYI - This is posted by Ghost Writer at RU - the same Ghost Writer that posts at BFN.  Now, I just did a SOCIAL SECURITY DEATH INDEX search myself, plus an LDS search and I'm not finding anything on Natalee Holloway. 

ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF THE GAMES THESE PEOPLE PLAY!



Ghost Writer Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:48 pm    

Has his own boat, I had mentioned him previously.
But, they did bring him in twice, searched his boat, his house, his car and no forensics.
This is a little more complicated than I can fully explain here, let's just say it has always bothered me why they didn't question him like they questioned Joran, and leave it at that for the moment, OK?
Posted by: scubajap | Oct 16, 2005 10:07:43 PM

I am going to say no. I do not think he knows where she is now. I believe he was involved up to a point, but I do not think either he or Satish know where she is.

Aren't they all?? (http://bestsmileys.com/lol/10.gif)

Name of Deceased: Natalee Holloway
Newspaper Title: Times Journal, The
Newspaper Location: Jackson, OH, Us
Obituary Publication Date: 6 Aug 2006
Locations Mentioned in Obituary: Kevin
Other Persons Mentioned in Obituary: AL Gore
Source Citation: Newspaper: Times Journal, The; Publication Date: 6 Aug 2006; Publication Place: Jackson , OH , Us..


Klaas the above is on ancestry.com in the US Obituary Collection. Plain to see it is a farce. I am contacting ancestry.

Why is it not there when I do a search?  I agree it's a farce but I don't even find it.

Why did Scuba think they should question LVR like they did Joran??

maybe because they prcticed his story so much and never got a chance to tell it?
 :lol:

FYI - that Codebreaker person has emailed Debbie at BFN and it appears that Codebreaker has NO inside information at all.  Codebreaker put together their theory based upon all the same information PV's etc we have all seen.

I got the same result as yapperz1. I also got the Steve Gregory Croes record.

Because Scuba and others knew about Lorenzo's parties. 

ROFL!! :lol:

Can you post the link please?  I don't know why it's not coming up for me.

http://www.ancestry.com/

Just type in her name on the 1st page & born in USA

They just want you to pay for info they do not have. For instance, here is a search from Webcrawler with search words:
Bradenton Herald Publication Date 19 Jun 2005

Here is what is listed in search results
12.
Info about bradenton herald newspaper
Deceased:JudgeNewspaper Title:Bradenton Herald Newspaper Location:Bradenton, FL, USObituary Publication Date:Jun/19/2005Locations Mentioned in ...
www.uuhyhp.info/odpdirect/bradenton-herald-newspap... [Found on Ask.com]


It is all just 'search garbage'.......bot crap

Geez - what is wrong with me, I was searching in the wrong spot.  Yes I'm very familiar with all the geneology sites just had a "blonde" moment.

If I have to support a certain theory because a moderator believes it, I will post elsewhere.  No where in my original post did I even mention Lorenzo or said moderator.  I said I prefer to concentrate on the known suspects and I do.

Well if you can't find it there...then it's  not there!!!

thanks....how codebreaker got that terrible story out of the same PV's we saw is beyond me... :roll:

If these people (RU) are playing around with records at Ancestry then I know I will not be renewing my subscription :sad: :shock:

Actually I messed up and it is there, but it is completely bogus.

If this Lorenzo guy was really a suspect in the Natalee case, why didnt they haul him in on drug/gun charges back then?  Why wait over 2 years? He was most likely into these things back then, they should have been able to use that as leverage. 

Lorenzo might be a drug addicted wacko.  At first, when it was so hard to find any info, even a picture of the guy, my gut instinct was undercover DEA (or perhaps the Dutch equivalent).  Then the arrest with his name spelled incorrectly.  Maybe a long term plan against the perps of his father's "suicide"?? Might explain the early Baccus comments. Hmmmm.

You aren't suggesting that they actually wanted to solve the case are you? 

yeah, silly me.

I would also like to know how the information in Codebreaker's postings was obtained from the PVs we have read, including the marker and buoy numbers.  Far fetched hypothesis IMO and if not based on any known facts or actual involvement by the writer then it is incredibly cruel to the family.

Also the case of Dianne Brimble has been in our news for years now and having seen the suspects shown and interviewed (after a fashion) on local TV all I can say is that apart from the age differences it is so similar to Natalee's case in that the perpetrators have a don't care, don't want to know, attitude where the victim is blamed and the main comments have been "She got what she asked for" and "Her behaviour was the cause".  A totally anti-women outlook from all the men involved.

 Is there a full moon by chance?? Some wierd things going on.....codebreaker, this  thing and the other that I won't mention :roll:.....some people are just kinda whacked out!!

Well I read while I was getting my hair done ... a Glamour magazine - from either July or August...  they did this story on a woman Janet Chandler from Michigan... the murder was solved 20 years later.  So it can happen here .....

not going to hijack the thread... but I will make this comment.. funny how some people go out and help search for missing people... SUNNY, you - Marlee, DiHannah, IBE...

and others, well..... seem to care less.  :wink:

I read those PV's, as all of us did, over and over and over..hoping there was something there......there was no mention of the buoy's.....I got an email that contained the email he/she sent to Debbie...which she actually posted on BFN......this person is a whacko!! posting like he/she had insider information....damn!! imagine Natalee's family has gone through this type of thing over and over and over......(I didn't post the email here...I figure Klaas has also see the email and will post it if she deems is fitting)

I had heard of the Dianne Brimble case...but didn't remember a lot of the details...but after reading that site....I got a lot more detail than I wanted......but I did remember as you say...the resemblance to Natalee's case.....starting with the date rape drug.....

Hi Mrs. Red!!  Yes it can....but I hope we do not have to wait that long!! :shock:

I absolutely hope we don't have to wait that long... that story about Janet Chandler was awful.... I will start a thread in another thread if I can find some more articles, etc. 


SO we have ruled out that Codebreaker is Deepak? 

Just to put it at rest.  This is the copy of the email Debbie posted at BFN.  As you can see, Codebreaker has no inside information.


(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub2/CODEBREAKEREMAIL.jpg)

I know...sad, huh!  I wish I could start a TES branch here in MO......I know monkeys would be first in line....but knowing that if Tim/TES ever needs us, we will be here for him, will have to suffice for now. I put my Natalee poster in the rear window of my new car today.....

that is wrong... just wrong.

That would be great Mrs. Red.....

yes, I believe we can rule deepak out :silent:

I posted to you in the musings thread SUNNY....

why is everyone so quiet> :shock:

thanks Klaas....not only a whacko but a smart butt too.....see I didn't say A$$ :shock:

OK...I'll go check Musings...I don't know whay everyone is so quiet????

Any word yet on this?  Seems like we're always in the wait and disapointment mode. We are all biting at the bit to help and do something, you'd think instead of teasers to keep us hanging on there would be something we could sink out teeth into.
Seems like all we get are extended promises.  I want so badly to help out but I have to admit all it seems is just "Something big is Coming" and it never comes. 
 

Well in regards to code breaker, code talker, etc I knew I had read some of that over at Scr_x  Suc_s.
Full moon ? Yep .
Helo & TTL , multitasking : laundry, dinner, hairdo after work, overtime after a reg work day ! !  I am a human tornado today ! ! !

An attempt at mediator here, never done this but this is bothering me.

Two of my favorite posters seem to have a burr against each other.  Not going to mention names - just going to pose the question, whats the real beef?  I just ask that you guys look to the most original-basic post that started this whole turmoil and look at it in a different light.  Could either of you misunderstood the other? Is there some ground for reconciliation in the name of finding justice for Natalee?

We are going to go get some custard!!  So night to all......take care and see ya tomorrow!!!  As Mrs. Red says...keep the faith!!

the Dutch have not let this case go away

they could, but they have not.

this tells me everything i need to know



they do not want to BE LINKED to the scum ALE

would you ????

have a little faith - i do  :cool:

 :smt033 :smt033 :smt033 :smt033 :smt033

please send cigars


its a LOCK  :cool:

http://www.amigoe.com/artman/publish/artikel_33831.php

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub2/ArubaWaterSpoutNatalee.jpg)

the DUTCH have no choice

if they dont

all hell breaks loose  :cool:

AS RED stated, Paul Reynolds is going to be posting here... it will probably be next week... he like all of us, is busy.  I am sure he will be here though, because he contacted us....

and don't lose faith... TIM is searching for other missing people now in OH... read DiHannah's and Marlee's accounts on that....it's quite uplifting (or it was to me)
and just keep having faith that it will happen, because it will.

:smt025 :smt033 :smt045 :smt045 :smt045 :cheers: :2waver: :smt023 :smt041 :2notworthy:

Wow......I like it (http://bestsmileys.com/angles/3.gif)

me too... it's quite powerful

:wink:

Maybe they found Sander's phone...

or Paulus' bag...

or Satish's gun...

or Freddy's camera...

or Joran's shoes...

or Deepak's chat records...

or v/d Straten's wiretaps...

or Anita's diary...

or Guido's cell records...

or the VDS's other maid...

or Osman Osman's invoices...

or...

The locusts are next  :wink:

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub2/PVDSLocust.jpg)

 :lol:  @  Locusts &  Sweatyrunningman

 :smt117 :salut:

he makes me want to WRETCH  :cool:

Maybe they found Sander's phone...

or Paulus' bag...

or Satish's gun...

or Freddy's camera...

or Joran's shoes...

or Deepak's chat records...

or v/d Straten's wiretaps...

or Anita's diary...

or Guido's cell records...

or the VDS's other maid...

or Osman Osman's invoices...

or...

I agree with you on this and also on "It's a Lock".

I always liked "Mr. Humidity"  :wink: :cool:

 :wink: :cool:

LOCK IT UP....errrrr  LOCK them UP  :lol:

There - that's better  :lol:

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub2/PVDSLocust2.jpg)

in the picture with paulus and the locusts


that is where Natalee is buried

on the land, in an area like that  :shock:

Open wide and say ahh!

Can anyone explain why Lalasmom was asking whether locusts (can't remember the other name used) were in Aruba?

Robots- I don't even think it's Aruba.  It's a photo with locusts I found that just happened to kindof look like Aruba  :wink:

Because I think they make noises that could have sounded like a monkey?  Just guessing.

well, thats the TYPE of area 
on the land, paulus was there. he was the conductor 
 :-x

V/D Straten Wiretaps

MF's post is gone, maybe somebody saved it, but IIRC he said that Rudy ripped v/d Straten on the radio and mentioned wiretaps. Glenda also posted about it...saying that the radio report stated that v/d Straten was investigated for his phone activity *before* the arrest of J2K. Even said it was an issue on 6/3 - 6/4 when Dompig replaced him for a day or two. Hard to tell what is true or not, coming from those two sources...but i am surprised the story was never covered in print. That i know of.

My thoughts went that way, too, Initially,  but your picture brought the question back....thanks.

San just asked me to do a compare.  The hairlines sure do match but what I notice also matches is around the mouth and chin:

PVDS and Lorenzo

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub2/PVDSLorenzo.jpg)

Thanks Klaas.  Sure do look alike.

OT here.  I know people will leave once I post but,....I signed into diario chat this morning and they made fun of me (Natalee) being in Boca Mahos.  wonder what they know that we don't.  Sorry if margins blow.

(http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h294/gummy_2006/ScreenHunter_035.jpg)

Hotshot -where is Boco Mahos?

the north side by the natural bridge. 

(http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h294/gummy_2006/ScreenHunter_037.jpg)

Funny after that Bondia signed on, and I said "Hi Julia"

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub2/ArubaBocaMahos.jpg)

 :lol: :lol:

Igsigs - I remember reading it at RU.  So the posts are gone now?

Well Klaas, we all know alot of stuff is missing, and not only from the ALE drawers either.

The MF post was at FOB. Glenda's was and is at RU.

I searched for Glenda's at RU and couldn't find it. 

In Joran's book on 6-3 or 6-4 it is quite clear that PVDS was calling JVS often and when there was a report that NH was found Anita called her best friend to get the specifics. Would be very interesting to know what was talked about and who Anitas best friend is. Also makes me wonder how they could report in the paper that NH was dead when it was actually a 17 year old male.

Speaking of Rudy,I thought today about the arrest warrants that were put out and the issues regarding work permits in Aruba.. Rudy was more interested in getting TJ Ward off the island then letting him get answers for the family.

Was Anita calling Van der Straaten's wife.  Was Van der Straaten relaying information through his wife.

I ran across it last night...lemme look.

Hiya San  :D...I would have to look through the translations again..I dont think so..Because that same day in the book PVDS was calling Jan and Anita was calling her Best Friend as joran described her. As I recall they said Natalee was found and Anita was calling to find out more... I think it was 6-3 to 6-5-05..The date on this article is 6-7 saying NH is dead as it may be what they were looking into.

(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa118/Observer00000007/aruba_20paper.jpg)

I found both the Glenda and MF posts. I e-mailed them to you. I don't want to just post links...and you know my c/p issues.  :-x

ok  :lol:

Thanks Igsigs!

Here is Glenda's post at RU:

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub2/GlendaWiretaps.png)

Here is MF's post as copied by hubba at RU:

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub2/MFfobWiretaps.png)

 :shock:  Sounds like dismemberent to me  IMO..   Yikes
 

 :cool:  honey you have cigars waiting for yah  lol  You and Wreck both and any others who want them.
 The humidor at work is keeping them safe for ya'll.   :wink:
 Robots.. if you are correct in your thoughs of KLPD.. I swear.. I'll smoke a cigar too. even if it means turning green and being ill.   :cool:

 :shock:  Eweeeeeeeeeeeeee   Locusts and PVDS..  Ackkkkkkkkkkkkkkk     :lol:

  Truthseeker2 Reading back, I've been looking for a statement Nadira made in which she said Satish hardly ever or never went out with Deepak. That same satatement said he was pacing about, excited, waiting for Deepak to come home.  This contradicted everything else we were told about him picking Deepak up from work that night.
   According to Sander's 6/16 PV he has known the Kalpoes a year and a half, and Koen goes to the movies with them.  Andre Santos PV says he has known Joran 6 years, Satish 2 and Deepak 1 year.
    I've been comparing the Kapoes' 5/31 PVs and until we get to the security guards their stories don't match. Their account of the guards is practically word for word, but details at C&C's totally different.  Deepak's account matches Joran's 6/9 PV, the first we have seen from him. Within 48 hours the brothers' stories don't match. Why?  Is it at all possible that Satish wasn't with Joran and Satish that night?
     

A few pages back, there were several comments about an ancestry search producing an obituary-type notice about Natalee.

I recall that a newspaper in the U.S. - I think it was in Florida, and possibly a weekly - ran a front page obituary, with a photo of Natalee, after the "something bad happened" statement (June 10-11 2005 weekend). It came up on searches (Google) for a long time.

That might be the explanation. (Doesn't explain the Croes result, though.)

its a DEAL  :lol:

Good Morning Monks!!!  WOW Klaas... ...this took my breath away!!!

HOLEY MOLEY!!! 

I think is was cicada bugs and I don't remember why she mentioned them.
http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&resnum=0&q=cicada+bugs&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi

http://bug.cicadayear.com/article.aspx?pageId=58

Good Morning HotShot!!  uummmm this is certainly interesting....where is Boca Mahos on the island map???

hahahahahaha...did she respond?    Someone sure shut her up...wonder WHO??

Welcome MUM!  Good observations!  So who do you think if not Satish? 

Hi Mum, and welcome!

I agree with Klaas, your observations are very interesting. I don't recall if we ever tried to freeze frame the video of the car leaving C&C's, and know that the quality of the video is poor. Your post has made me curious as to whether Satish could be seen in the car even at that point.

Thanks Klaas,  FREDDY HAS TO TELL THE TRUTH!   Been wondering if he's the 5th suspect whose alibi can't be broken.  The gardner didn't recognize Satish and it appears Paulus and Joran have something on him, gun or a car incident.  Joran changed to Satish picked him up.  And to top it off the Kalpoe stepfather winds up with the Internet Cafe.

Thanks CBB, Could the MB kids have had a really good look at whoever was with Joran at C&Cs?  It was probably dark in there, late and they were partying. The 3 were only ther 20-30 minutes tops.  Just because Joran says it was Satish doesn't make it so.

Freddy would be the more likely partner.  We have a photo of Joran, Freddy and Deepak from March/April 2005 in front of CnC.  It was Freddy, Deepak and Joran that picked up Bailey Ann and her friend on their last night in Aruba.  So Freddy does make more sense than Satish.

Was it a repeat of this night? 

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub2/freddy.jpg)

http://video.aol.com/video/news-dutch-show-hopes-to-solve-holloway-case/1492540

I was just looking through some videos. You guys have seen this, but it shows a car reported to be Deepak's being loaded for impounding at approx. 1:10 minutes into the video. It has 6 spokes on the tire rims. There's been some speculation about the car, and thought I'd post it for anyone interested.

I don't think there is any doubt that Satish was with them on the night of 05/29 and early morning of 05/30.  But...trying to keep an open mind...could it have actually been Freddie that was with them instead of Satish and that is why Deepak has been so protective of Satish?  Freddie wasn't id'd so Satish was the one picked up.  ??????

I have seen a few discrepancies in the early stories based on the PV's, such as the one where Deepak says that Satish drove to CnC's and Deepak left the bar looking for J&S but did not find them at the car.  Deepak then says he sat down at the rear of the car and mis-called Satish.  Satish then comes out and gives Deepak the keys and returns to CnC's to get Joran.  This was only told one time.  Every other time it appears Deepak drives them to CnC's.  Is it significant?  I don't know.  Maybe.

So who was it?  I am assuming you think it was Freddy. Didn't Satish or Deepak speak to someone there? If that is true then surely there is a statement some where to that effect...probably not.  I have often wondered if Satish was really there at all.  His witness statement (that we now know is false) is clearly at odds with the details that Deepak and Joran give in theirs.  Of course, we will never see the Joran witness statement, since it's long since gone.  Please continue...I am interested. TIA

Good Morning MUM and welcome to SM.....I do believe it has been established that satish was with deepak and the sporter...as to why their stories don't match....just stupid I guess...I doubt either of them are too bright considering all we know.... :roll:

Good Morning Msmarple...I never saw that...do you have it saved? can you post it here....

Sunny - but the question is, how was it established that Satish was with them?  From their own statements? 

WOW....now you have me wondering of it really was Satish or NOT!!

Got it now :shock:....and as far as I can remember ...it is from their statments...and yes it would make more sense that it was freddy and not satish with them that night....was it freddy who was supposed to be spending the night??  I gotta go find my notes...someplace in a box still

Sunny - I didn't save it. It probably was posted at SM around that time, though.

Yep I am wondering too.  Deepak, Satish and Freddy all have dark coloring, probably close to the same height and weight, especially when they are only seen for a short time, It would be easy to assume.......  Very interesting.

Morning Monkeys! Very interesting discussion regarding whether it was Satish or Freddy with Joran at CnC's. Freddy and Satish look similar IMO.

I think the notion that Satish wasn't there at all is plausible. I've been going through videos, looking for the car video leaving C&C's and man, it's a gut wrencher to see the interviews agian of what the family has been through!

I wish Beth could have had this conversation with Satish. I think he's the weakest link in the chain of information, and whether he was there or not, Satish knows what happened, IMO.

http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?vid=1111290889&fr=yfp-t-501

Thanks for the welcome Sunny.  Lala's, Deepak's statement 5/31 says he talked to a friend, Satish says he, meaning Satish, walked aroundand Joron and Deepak lagged behind and doesn't mention a friend. Maybe Paul Reynolds will be able to clue us in on what is fact or fiction.

thanks CBB....I remember the video.....I have lots of questions about the car....but like so many other things...no answers

thanks MsM..perhaps Klaas has it

Perhaps I am missing something very obvious, but if Deepak is trying to protect Satish, why wouldn't he just say that Satish wasn't there with them that night?  Why would Satish say he was there  when in fact he wasn't?  When it comes to the  statements by Satish or Deepak  wouldn't they both have stated that Satish wasn't with them?   Help me here, I am not getting the train of thought to this hypothesis.

Wasn't Deepak's car impounded after he had taken it to Osman Auto for cleaning and or repair? Can anyone confirm this?

Valid thinking . . . however, what if by saying it was Satish it actually protects him and the person who was actually there?? Just thinking out loud. Then again, hasn't it been discussed that Satish hung out with Joran and friends more than Deepak?? It is hard to say . . . so much disinformation and so many lies.

Good Morning Shadow!  yes you are right about the similarities in physical appearance especially at night and from people not familiar with them

If Satish wasn't there, and it was Freddy instead, I would think the object would be to protect Freddy.

Later, I can hypothesize that Deepak would be protective of Satish, because it would be easy to trip him up.

Why would Deepak go along with Joran on keeping Freddy totally out? Perhaps Freddy threatened to tell what Joran did to Natalee if he became involved, and Deepak went along because Deepak was also involved?

From Joran's June 9, 2005 statement:
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=160.0

On Sunday, I do not remember the date any more, I went at approximately 16.00 hours, to the "Excelsior Casino" at the Holiday Inn Hotel to play "Texas Hold'm poker". (with this the suspect is talking about May 29th 2005). I went with my father named "Paul van der SLOOT" to the casino. I went to play "Texas Hold'm Poker" with my father. It is a poker game in which you get 7 cards and you have to make a card combination with your best (5) cards. You get 500 U.S. $ of fake money and with this money you play. I was done sooner than my father and I went and hung around in the casino. When it was half time of the game my father wanted to go home to go and babysit my ten year old brother. At my father's request I sat in for him and played "Texas Hold'm poker. I am not sure as to when half time was but I think it was between 19.00 and 20.00 hours. I kept on gambling until I lost too. This was according to me until 21.30 to 22.00 hours. I went to walk around in the casino and after that went to the "Blackjack" table to play blackjack. While I was sitting at the table the girl "Natalee" that is missing now to the blackjack table together with her friends. When the English speaking girls came to the blackjack table they introduced themselves. I do not remember the names of the girls anymore but they were from the same group of students that Natalee belonged to. According to me the friends of Natalee played blackjack but Natalee didn't. A girl that was sitting at my left side on the table asked me in English if I could help her play blackjack because she had lost U.S. $ 360,= of her father's money. The girl bet U.S. $ 20,= in the game and I helped her win U.S. $ 100,= with it. After the girl had won U.S. $ 100,= I advised her to call it quits but she wanted to continue. I told her again that she should stop and her friends also said that she should stop. Probably the girl after that went to cash in her chips for money. The girlfriends of the girl asked me if I was going to "Carlos & Charlies" that night. I told them that I couldn't do that because I had school tomorrow. The girls kept insisting that I should meet them at "Carlos & Charlies" because it was their last night on Aruba. After they kept insisting I agreed to meet with at "Carlos & Charlies".

From Jaime's June 17, 2005 statement:
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=197.0

On May 29th 2005, between the hours of 16.00 and 19.00, I was called by Joran on my mobile phone with the phone number "xxxxxxx". Sometimes Joran calls me on the mobile phone of my sister, her name is "Maria del Pilar CARRASQUIXIA CACERES". Her calling name is "Pilar". The mobile phone number of Pilar is "xxxxxxx". The mobile phone number of Joran is "xxxxxxx". Joran had asked me whether I wanted to go out with him that night. He told me that a few American girls would go to "Carlos & Charlies" and whether I wanted to meet up with him there. According to me I had said to Joran that I would let him know later that day whether or not I would go out with him that night. I had also said to Joran that I had to work the next day. According to me I was phoned later that day by Joran again but I hadn't answered my mobile phone. Because it is the vacation now I temporarily work in "Caribbean Overseas". I work in the big Poolkasten. On May 29th 2005 I stayed home and slept. I went to bed at approximately 22.00 hours.



So Joran claims he was asked to go to CnC by the MB kids sometime after 22:00.  Jaimie claims Joran called him between 16:00 and 19:00 and told him about the American girls and CnC.

Which is it?  

Hey Sunny! True, especially if they had never seen either of them before that night.

Not sure either...just thinking out loud I suppose.  I personally think  Satish was there in the beginning, but could have been home when the pond scenario occurred.  Thus the reason Satish was not identified as the third person.  Then of course, who was cleaning Deepak's car in the early hours?  Just Deepak? 

Picked out from the crowd and pre-planned from the beginning...that is what I think...but that is IMO.

Well. to put Freddie with Joran that night you would need to leave out a Kalpoe.  Who says it has to be Satish?  Maybe Satish used Deepak's car????

Just playing around with this whole concept of Freddie versus one of the Kalpose....will have to give it some more thought.

Lala's I agree.  They've done it 20 times before, it was a game. 

You are right. It wouldnt happen. Deepak or the attorneys would openly state Satish wasnt there if he wasnt.

Nice catch Klass. I would suspect Jaime's timeline to be more accurate. Joran could never admit to that timeline because it makes it all the more premeditated.

Everytime I see a video of Beth I am in awe of her strength.....but one picture always remains in the front of my head....the one where she is near collapse and 2 men are holding her up...her pain rushes through my computer screen and hurts my soul.....I too wish she could have gotten him to talk!!

I've got to get to work, but will leave you guys with this. This person is at the center of it all.
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/crazybabyborgs/joran.jpg)

Enjoy the day, guys!


(BTW: Please read my signature line.)

Not sure Sunny, except maybe Freddy needed protecting more.  IIRC Paulus got him a lawyer early on and Freddy's Dad walked out on a meeting with Paulus and Anita?  Didn't Deepak tell Joran to leave Satish out of this?

I can't leave without saying, GREAT CATCH Klaas! Do we have a place for listing just such inconsistencies?

If anyone were ever interested in actually INTERVIEWING the suspects again, they could print it off and be armed and ready.

Freddy has been protected since day one.  I believe a lot of people are afraid of Freddy's family.

The one thing that repeats over and over in my mind is that Satish said he asked Deepak how the girl was in one of his statements.  I believe Satish witnessed what Joran did and knew the condition of Natalee before Paulus sent the Kalpoes home or at least Satish.

Dave has said there were 3 people seen washing Deepak's car that night (Deepak, Satish & Freddy).  JMO.

Could Satish have gone home early and Freddy joined Deepak and Joran with Natalee?  We know Freddy has been known to video before, was this what they usually did?  Did Joran pick the tourist girl (s) up then Freddy film the activities?

Natalee's Freebirds have done a great job of listing inconsistencies in all areas.  There is a thread for all of the Freebird's posts called Corruption and Collusion in Aruba and it's in 2 locations (NH forum and Important Case Document forum).

IMO - Freddy is involved - some way - some how...Perhaps Satish was with them at first and then switched up and Freddy took Satish's place.  Deepak wanted to protect Satish. And both Kalpoes said Freddy needs to tell the truth.

It would have looked bad if J2K told ALE that they switched Satish for Freddy - when all they were doing (according to them) was giving a girl a ride. 

Absolutely. Or could Deepak have gone home?

Well, if Freddy was known to video girls for porn, and that's what they were doing with Natalee, it would serve to protect them all to keep Freddy out of it, wouldn't it?

I really have to go! See Ya!

Yep, either one or neither one.  Didn't Satish miss the entire next day of school?  :wink:

I'd go with Jamie's stament before the sporter's.....that one has yet to tell a TRUTH

Exactly what led me to think about the possibility of Satish being named as a suspect to protect Freddy. Also if Freddy was into filming porn, then maybe that is part of the reason to keep him out of it. Just thinking out loud.

Yep.
He often missed school after sneaking out all night. ;)

Thinking the same thing and posted it before I saw your post.  :)

Look at those DEAD eyes.....his eyes are certainly not a window to a soul...he has none

yes d did tell j to keep satish out of it.....why?

Could be that Satish was not there for the attack but knew the plan and Deepak did not think Satish could handle being interrogated?? Just a thought.

Did we determine if Freddy has a car?

What if Deepak dropped Joran, Satish and Natalee off someplace.  Then Freddy arrived?

IF there was a car following the car with J2K & Natalee leaving CnC's what if Freddie or Jaime was in the car and they switched cars and Satish drove Deepak's car home??

Does anyone remember someone making an issue about whose hand was in that pic of JK2 that was being shown on all the news stations?  They were saying to notice the hand.  That hand was Freddie's.  Who kept bringing that up?

The girlfriends of the girl asked me if I was going to "Carlos & Charlies" that night. I told them that I couldn't do that because I had school tomorrow. The girls kept insisting that I should meet them at "Carlos & Charlies" because it was their last night on Aruba. After they kept insisting I agreed to meet with at "Carlos & Charlies".



JUST MORE lies

i thought he was just visiting the island  :-x

Just thinking along those lines as well . . . I don' remember if we ever confirmed he had a car.

I don't remember but would be interested in seeing that.

Merian Ernest posts.

I have been looking for it this morning but have not found it.  I can't remember if it was posted here.  (I need more ginseng!)

This is a photo of a building on Aruba. Can anyone tell me what it is and where it may be? I can't save the pix so here is the link.
http://travelswithfred.smugmug.com/gallery/1726292#85232376-M-LB

Merian Ernest. 

iirc, Simian.

(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/crazybabyborgs/freddy.jpg)

http://rizk.smugmug.com/gallery/1095071/19/50927864#50927864
Excellent photo of the back of carlos n' charlies here. Click to enlarge.

And what if that switch was made a the VDS' - thus the need to change the story that they went by the house....

I don;t know - What keeps coming to my mind is, that they just picked up Natalee for a night of fun for the pimps, like they had countless times before, They were just planning on dropping her off in a drugged state on the beach somewhere, and she would just go home.  They weren't planning on the "something bad" happening.

I can't see them planning alot of alibies(sp?) or stories until that something happened, and they had to.

 :roll: :roll:

This would make more sense to me.
 Question then: How did Satish get home, and what time was it said that Satish was on the computer at home?  Could Freddie be sending the videos to Satish and that was his role in this scenario?

Cannot stay long, and do not have the time to pull Satish's PVs but he took the Aruban 5th in most of them....didn't he?  Just thinking about was he or wasn't he discussion & relation to his not answering questions.

Sorry guys, I have my riddlers all mixed up.  Please excuse me while go in the corner and bang my head against the wall for a while. I have been reading too long this morning.

(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/crazybabyborgs/frdj.d.jpg)

While looking for the photo with Freddy in it, I ran across this. I've seen it before, but it's been a while. Thought I'd share it.

I'm REALLY working!  :roll:

sorry lala's

simian -- when he was posting using the nic merrian ernest.

Most likely place to me would be Joran's apartment.  Jaime stated in his statement he went to be early which I believe was BS.  What if Freddy was waiting in Joran's apartment with Sander and Koen for them to bring Natalee there.

Deepak said they need to arrest Sander and Koen also.

Clear picture of the street also where they said they went around the block.

I knew I had not lost my mind...well you never know for sure...but...



Merian Ernest Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:49 pm Post subject: Who framed who?
Take a close look at the famous picture.

Deepak, Joran and Satish at C&C. Whose hand is on Satish's shoulder? Take another look.
A really good look.

It can never be the hand of any of the three.

Merian Ernest Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 4:07 pm Post subject: The mysterious hand...
See the hand. On the infamous picture in C&C. The boy in the middle and the Hindus on each
side.

Whose hand is on the shoulder of the Hindu on he left? Somebody is missing on this picture.
Maybe somebody was placed on this picture?

That would be bluej.  I have the whole pic now.  It was freddy.  At the time Jack or the real Sam.  It is Freddy in the pic.       blue

What do you think they mean by saying the above bolded?

Maybe I should post a little more here...Am I going to get in trouble? This isn't the Shango thread.   :roll:

Merian Ernest Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:49 pm Post subject: Who framed who?
Take a close look at the famous picture.

Deepak, Joran and Satish at C&C. Whose hand is on Satish's shoulder? Take another look.
A really good look.

It can never be the hand of any of the three.

Merian Ernest Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 4:07 pm Post subject: The mysterious hand...
See the hand. On the infamous picture in C&C. The boy in the middle and the Hindus on each
side.

Whose hand is on the shoulder of the Hindu on he left? Somebody is missing on this picture.
Maybe somebody was placed on this picture?

It seems more people are vanishing in this case.

Merian Ernest Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 4:22 pm Post subject: Centennial Park
Doesn't anybody here remember who Richard Jewell is?

As far as foreighners not having the same rights as compared to when they are in their
own county...damn right they don't. US Citizens should especially bear that in mind

**Question from poster: JetSki Boy. = locoman?

Merian Ernest Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 4:40 pm Post subject: Thursday is a day with no
character...
Who snatched the body? The mutts seem to think it was there.

Obstruction anybody? Cowboys don't have badges.

There's a well in the back. Who will go and look?

No codes for the wicked.

whos mutts - Van Der Straaten stepped infront of SAR and told them to leave.
Where are we talking about?

Someone posted the picture on this page of the person whose hand it is.  It is Freddy.  He, in one of Joran's first versions, was spending the night with Joran, later that was scrapped by him.  I, as well believe he was there and others as well at the PVs residence and Jorans extention to that residence.       bluej

Yes, it is Freddy...at first the MSM removed his part in the photo due to the fact they had no idea if he was involved.  It wasn't until later that they showed the complete photo.  So once again...did Simian...er I mean Merian know more than we are led to believe?  Just throwing that out there...we can take this discussion to the Shango thread if you like. 

Lala's I have no idea but I do suspect Freddy is involved.

Not inside connections ... not a vision ... not a riddle ... just a theory based on researching info that out there.

+++++++++

I believe that Freddy was waiting at the VDS' residence ... with his camera ... when Satish, Deepak and Joran arrived with a drugged Natalee.  In an attempt to escape Natalee sustained a head injury.  Then during the sexual assault that ensued Natalee appeared to pass out.  The decision was made to take her to the beach where she could sleep it off and ... make her own way to the HI in time to catch her plane back home.

Enroute to the beach ... Deepak drops off Satish at home.  Prior to reaching the beach ... it was determined that Natalee was deceased.  However ... it was decided to stick to the original plan of leaving her at the beach.

Deepak dropped off Joran, Freddy and a deceased Natalee at the beach while he parked his vehicle a short distance away at the tennis club.  After leaving Natalee at the beach (Fisherman's Hut).  Deepak then runs back to the beach and meets up with Joran and Freddy.

A very short time later ... Joran, Deepak and Freddy hurriedly climb into Deepak's vehicle.  A discussion ensues and panic has set in.  The realization that the injury and the DNA evidence on Natalee's person could be very incriminating when it was considered that Joran, Deepak and Satish were observed leaving CC with Natalee.

The gardener enters the picture and ... then Paulus is contacted and ... takes over.

Janet

+++++++++


Diario Aruba
December 6, 2006

Oranjestad (AAN) As promised to the peoples of Aruba and the U.S.A., DIARIO will continue with its investigation on the missing girl, Natalee Holloway, and will publish legitimate documents accompanied by analysis and questions that sooner or later will bring out the truth.

<snipped>

Seeing that the Dutch officer himself mentions that "they" entered into panic, according to the declaration of Freddy Zedan, then there were more than one person involved and everyone can reach his own conclusion that Freddy Zedan knows those who he himself referred to as "they", or in Papiamento "nan".  "They" went into panic when Natalee remained passed out!!! This means that more than one person was present when Natalee remained passed out and where are these people who were with Natalee when she remained passed out?  On the beach like "they" want the police and everyone else to believe, or elsewhere? Do they who belong to the group referred to as "they" realize now that the circle is slowly closing around "them"? For those who understand what this means, few words are necessary!


Diana Emerencia - Freddy's Attorney
Decatur Daily News
August 31, 2005  

ORANJESTAD, Aruba (AP) — ...... A third man was arrested with the Kalpoes but his lawyer said Monday that it was unrelated to Holloway's disappearance.

Freddy Alexander Zedan-Arambatzis, a friend of van der Sloot and the Kalpoes, was arrested on suspicion of having unspecified "physical contact" with a female minor, said his lawyer, Diana Emerencia.

Zedan-Arambatzis, 21, is also suspected of photographing the girl in "tempting poses" and showing the images to other people, Emerencia said.

The Kalpoe brothers and van der Sloot are also suspected of involvement in the incidents, which allegedly occurred before Holloway disappeared, she said.  


Satish Kalpoe
Suspect Statement
June 13, 2005

My mother was then going to wake me up at 10.30 a.m. She though overslept and did not wake me up. I woke up around 12.00 noon. My brother woke up around 1 p.m. I asked him how Joran did get home during the night. He told me Joran had called him while walking in the direction to his home. He told me Joran told him he walked bare feet because he left the shoes at the beach.  Then I asked my brother how the girl was doing.


Beth Twitty
LARRY KING LIVE
February 23, 2007

BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY:  Deepak panicked. He panicked when the gardener gave that testimony. That very afternoon, he called an Aruban girl to help him establish an alibi. She, in turn, panicked. She called FBI. She dialed the 1-877-NATALEE number and told them that she did not want to be involved in this.


Jossy Mansur
NANCY GRACE
July 29, 2005

GRACE: OK. Jossy, is there any way to tie in a white pick-up to this scenario?
 
MANSUR: ... there`s another witness that, before that, told someone that works at the hotels that he saw a white pick-up over there by the Holiday Inn, in which three persons were also in, all of them male, carrying what looked like the body of a girl, putting it in the back of the white pick-up and driving away with it.

Janet - your theory makes alot of sense, IMO

I agree -- VERY plausible!

Janet,

You're theory makes sense, but where does the premeditated murder charge for Paulus come from? And, the heavy battery charge against Guido?

Not a clue!  LOL

MANSUR: ... there`s another witness that, before that, told someone that works at the hotels that he saw a white pick-up over there by the Holiday Inn, in which three persons were also in, all of them male, carrying what looked like the body of a girl, putting it in the back of the white pick-up and driving away with it.

was this during the night or early morning when she disappeared?

by the way Hi Monkeys!

My theory continued ...

GUIDO

Guido could have been waiting with Freddy at the VDS' residence for the arrival of Joran, Deepak, Satish and Natalee.


PAULUS

In January, 2007 the Superior Court ruled that Paulus' detainment was justified because his original declaration stated that he was in the area of McDonald's on the morning that Natalee Holloway disappeared.


STEVE CROES

Steve Croes came forward with a false alibi for the main suspects.  Also he could have assisted Paulus in moving a deceased Natalee from the beach on that fateful morning.  An early rumor implied there was an early morning cell call between the VDS' cell and Steve Croes's cell.  Steve Croes and Geoffrey van Cromvoirt retained same attorney.


GEOFFREY VAN CROMVOIT

GVC could have assisted Paulus in moving a deceased Natalee from the beach on that fateful morning.  Steve Croes and Geoffrey van Cromvoirt retained the same attorney.

+++++++++++++++++++++++


SUSPECTS IN THE NATALEE HOLLOWAY CASE


Joran, Deepak, Satish, Steve Croes and Paulus
FOX NEWS
June 24, 2005

Joran van der Sloot (search) and his friends Deepak and Satish Kalpoe are being held under suspicion of murder and kidnapping as well as being an accessory to murder.

A fourth man, party boat DJ Steve Croes, is being held under the same conditions.

The fifth man, Paul van der Sloot (search) — the father of 17-year-old Joran — was being held on suspicion of complicity to pre-meditated murder, complicity to kidnapping and murder and kidnapping. Under the Aruban system, complicity is a lesser charge.


Geoffrey van Cromvoirt (GVC)
ABC NEWS
April 24, 2006

Geoffrey van Cromvoirt, 19, has been released into the custody of his parents after spending more than a week in an Aruba jail on suspicion of "criminal offenses that may be related to the disappearance" of Natalee Holloway.


Guildo Wever
FOX NEWS
May 22, 2006

Guido Wever, an Aruba national, is expected to face charges Tuesday in a Dutch courtroom connection with the disappearance of the high school senior. Wever's lawyer, Gerard Spong was expected to file a suit Monday to prevent his extradition to the Caribbean island on charges of "assisting in the murder, heavy battery and kidnapping" of the teen

++++++++++++++++++

CRITERIA FOR DETAINMENT UNDER DUTCH LAW

Arlene Ellis-Schipper
NANCY GRACE
July 20, 2005

ARLENE ELLIS-SCHIPPER, ARUBAN ATTORNEY: There is no grand jury in Aruba. It`s a different system. You are arrested based on suspicion, on strong suspicion. After a maximum of 146 days, the prosecution must determine the criminal offense that has been committed and make an official summation for court. And God forbid that they cannot determine what criminal offense has been committed, the case remains open, and it can remain open for a whole number of years, actually, until the due process, the international rules about due process, up to two years


Noraina Pietersz - Defence Attorney
Associated Press
June 9, 2005

Under Aruban law, only serious suspicion from investigators — not solid evidence — is needed for a judge to rule that suspects can be held, Pietersz said.