Lively Case Discussion #613 5/4 - 5/5/2007

[robots]

klaas! Robots has been bad! Stick him in a corner for 4 seconds!

hehehehehee..im heading out to work

i was jsut teasing ya all

see ya later

be good, like me    

[Tiger]

Hello Monkeys,Have a great day.Remember Flies spread desease,so joran keep yours shut.Horrible twister in Kansas,tragic,My prayers are with the people there

[klaasend]

Posted by Frazerclan at RU (it appears Joran can't even keep his lies straight in his book   ):

...not those f*&%($#@ shoes again!

A couple of nights ago Hannie C posted the following which she had translated from JVDS’s book:

We drive to my house. When we arrived there, Satish said; "Don`t worry, i`ll pick up your shoes". Where are they? I explain to him where I put them and get out of the car.

I found this a little disturbing as I have only ever heard previously that Joran said he did not know where his shoes were.

If this exchange between Joran and Satish is true then it may bring into play certain possibilities in regard to Satish's involvement. If it is not true then why is Joran including it in his book?

After I posted concerns about this Hannie posted a translation of a subsequent page:

I realize suddenly that I left my shoes at the Marriot on the beach. "Shit my shoes"....
"Satish; Let them. We pick them up tomorrow for you".
I tell Satish what happened and that she wanted me to stay, and he says again "Fok that bitch"..
I say; Tomorrow after school i`m going to the Raquetclub, so i will search for my shoes myself."....

I don’t understand how the two statements above can be reconciled. They are different. F***, they are not only different, they are directly opposed. I thought I always knew why the boys lied in the beginning but what appears to be continued contradictions is beginning to concern me a little.

I did not press Hannie further as I felt she thought I was taking issue with her about her translation. I realize how hard translation can be and that shades of meaning are not easy, especially when you are doing everyone else a favour by providing said translation for free. Perhaps the above statements in context as displayed in the book are not important but I am having my first doubts after two years.

Kick the shit out of me guys. I don't want to go over to the dark side!

[robots]

i thought he walked home    

[Lala'sMom]

Posted by Frazerclan at RU (it appears Joran can't even keep his lies straight in his book   ):

...not those f*&%($#@ shoes again!

A couple of nights ago Hannie C posted the following which she had translated from JVDS’s book:

We drive to my house. When we arrived there, Satish said; "Don`t worry, i`ll pick up your shoes". Where are they? I explain to him where I put them and get out of the car.

I found this a little disturbing as I have only ever heard previously that Joran said he did not know where his shoes were.

If this exchange between Joran and Satish is true then it may bring into play certain possibilities in regard to Satish's involvement. If it is not true then why is Joran including it in his book?

After I posted concerns about this Hannie posted a translation of a subsequent page:

I realize suddenly that I left my shoes at the Marriot on the beach. "Shit my shoes"....
"Satish; Let them. We pick them up tomorrow for you".
I tell Satish what happened and that she wanted me to stay, and he says again "Fok that bitch"..
I say; Tomorrow after school i`m going to the Raquetclub, so i will search for my shoes myself."....

I don’t understand how the two statements above can be reconciled. They are different. F***, they are not only different, they are directly opposed. I thought I always knew why the boys lied in the beginning but what appears to be continued contradictions is beginning to concern me a little.

I did not press Hannie further as I felt she thought I was taking issue with her about her translation. I realize how hard translation can be and that shades of meaning are not easy, especially when you are doing everyone else a favour by providing said translation for free. Perhaps the above statements in context as displayed in the book are not important but I am having my first doubts after two years.

Kick the shit out of me guys. I don't want to go over to the dark side!

I am confused here.  What is the deal?  If anyone with half a brain has read any of those police statements and put their thinking cap on...you would know that Joran and Satish and Deepak are all entwined in this fiasco.  Nothing new here...first it's walking, then it's Deepak and finally it's Satish. Joran's way of keeping them in the loop.  I would be very interested to see it in context also.  I will ponder Satish's role here further.


Morning monkeys.  It's raining here, but grateful for the rain.  It's been so dry.

[klaasend]

Lala's - the deal is he's telling 2 different stories in his book even and at least one Refugee is wondering why.

[robots]

joran is simply telling more lies

HE SUDDENLY realizes after getting home he left his shoes on the beach ?????

       



BULL BULL BULL

[adoronron]

Was just driving by reading the posts. Does the book say what time satish picked him up?

Ado

[klaasend]

Was just driving by reading the posts. Does the book say what time satish picked him up?

Ado

Not sure..I'll check

[Lala'sMom]

Posted by Frazerclan at RU (it appears Joran can't even keep his lies straight in his book   ):

...not those f*&%($#@ shoes again!

A couple of nights ago Hannie C posted the following which she had translated from JVDS’s book:

We drive to my house. When we arrived there, Satish said; "Don`t worry, i`ll pick up your shoes". Where are they? I explain to him where I put them and get out of the car. Joran is clearly trying to establish that Satish had every opportunity to go back and harm Natalee.  Where do you think he told him his shoes were?  They are right next to Natalee, what else?

I found this a little disturbing as I have only ever heard previously that Joran said he did not know where his shoes were.

If this exchange between Joran and Satish is true then it may bring into play certain possibilities in regard to Satish's involvement. If it is not true then why is Joran including it in his book?

After I posted concerns about this Hannie posted a translation of a subsequent page:

I realize suddenly that I left my shoes at the Marriot on the beach. "Shit my shoes"....
"Satish; Let them. We pick them up tomorrow for you".
I tell Satish what happened and that she wanted me to stay, and he says again "Fok that bitch"..
I say; Tomorrow after school i`m going to the Raquetclub, so i will search for my shoes myself.".... This supports his statement that he walked from the Raquet Club to the casino all the while looking for his shoes.  It's there in his myriad of lies.  Just placing the blame of Satish again.

I don’t understand how the two statements above can be reconciled. They are different. F***, they are not only different, they are directly opposed. I thought I always knew why the boys lied in the beginning but what appears to be continued contradictions is beginning to concern me a little.

I did not press Hannie further as I felt she thought I was taking issue with her about her translation. I realize how hard translation can be and that shades of meaning are not easy, especially when you are doing everyone else a favour by providing said translation for free. Perhaps the above statements in context as displayed in the book are not important but I am having my first doubts after two years.

Kick the shit out of me guys. I don't want to go over to the dark side!

Not rocket science here...Frazer.  

[Lala'sMom]

Lala's - the deal is he's telling 2 different stories in his book even and at least one Refugee is wondering why.

OMG!  Someone got a brain?  What is the world coming to over there?  

[adoronron]

Was just driving by reading the posts. Does the book say what time satish picked him up?

Ado

Not sure..I'll check

It better not be prior to 4 AM - he was still with her according to jorans latest lie - i was with her for 3 hours.

[klaasend]

Was just driving by reading the posts. Does the book say what time satish picked him up?

Ado

Not sure..I'll check

It better not be prior to 4 AM - he was still with her according to jorans latest lie - i was with her for 3 hours.

I'm not finding where HannieC is translating all of this.  It may be in the heated exchange area of RU and I don't have access.  I'll keep looking.

[klaasend]

HannieC wrote:
Snip out of the book;


" I`m going to stand under the roof of a Fishermanshut, to call; this way the seawind doesn`t bother me and i`m better to hear.

It`s 2.26 when I speak to Deepak, changing to Papiamento and Dutch, so Natalee can`t understand what I say.....I tell him what happened. I show off a little and lie: She has given me a bj.

Deepak says; You always are lucky!"..

Afer about 8 minutes we hang up the phone. Deepak will pick me up right away, he was just chatting with a Surinam girl. After about 15 minutes I hear from afar Deepak`s car coming.
I tell Natalee: "The car is here, last chance to come. But she still didn`t want to come. I leave Natalee behind."

I never even really said goodbye to her, or told her that I called someone to pick me up. I walk to the car, on the road which lays behind the Fishermanshuts.

"I see Satish sitting in the car, and open the door. What are you doing, he asks. I said, she doesn`t want to go to her hotel.

Satish; "Fok that bitch" ( that means as much as , let her..)
I got in the car quickly, without telling Natalee that I go, and we drove away".....

Snip out of the book about the times of the sms..;

2.46; Deepak send me and sms from his computer to my mobile; "Wait till you get home, misscall me"( That means; give me a missed call. Then you leave the phone rang one time, so the receiver sees that you called and can call you back. We mainly do that if we haven`t got enough credit)

3.11 "I send a sms to Flor..."
3.13 "I send a sms to Deepak: "Hey thanks swa, goodnight " I`m home are you online? I put on my computer and start MSN"....

( Joran was in the kitchen to get something to eat and drink at the moment Deepak sends him those messages on MSN)

3.25:38 - Deepak sends a message via MSN; "I`m going to sleep"
3.25:42 - Deepak send me a last message; " Take care"..

3.33:08 - I see Deepak`s messages and react: Hey swa", Deepak didn`t react....

3.35:32 - I write; "Topa pimp Hheehehe". After this I look at my hotmail account and on MSN...

3.40 - I visit the website fcbarcelona.com, livescore.com and soccernet.com...

3.46 - I visit the pornsite backseatbangers.com and 10 min. later nastydollars.com, where I download 2 pornmovies.....

4.30 - I look again at my hotmailaccount and MSN.....


(Note; These are all facts out of the policefiles )


NOTE FROM KLAASEND:  Joran is obviously writing this part with the computer and cell log statement in front of him.

[Lala'sMom]

Joran 6/13:
I had called Deepak, on May 30th 2005 at approximately 03.00 am, on his mobile phone. It was May 30th 2005. I had asked Deepak how he was doing. He had told me that he was "on-line" and that he was chatting to people. I had told Deepak that the girl wouldn't listen and that she was sleeping on the beach. I asked Deepak if he would come and pick me up. Deepak further told me that he would come immediately to come and pick me up. The conversation lasted about 2 to 3 minutes. I had walked back to Natalee. She was still sleeping. I laid down next to her. At about 03.30 am Deepak came to Fisherman's Huts to pick me up. When I was sitting in the car I told Deepak that the girl was laying on the beach and that she was being annoying/irritating because she didn't want to go back to her hotel. Deepak asked me if I fucked her. I answered Deepak that I didn't because I didn't have a condom on me. Deepak also asked me what I was going to do with her. I had said to Deepak that she didn't want to go back to her hotel. I even told her that I lifted her up but that she didn't want me to bring her back to her hotel. Then Deepak said to me "don't f*** with that bitch" * that they will find her tomorrow on the beach. Then Deepak and me drove off towards home. What I can remark is that when we drove home the "Snack Truck" at "Fermins Bar" wasn't there. In the car I had....

Everyone that is interested should reread this statement.  It is the first time that Joran attempts to change his story on how he arrived at his house. (Not withstanding other statements we do not have access to at this time) He is implicating Deepak here.  I have read this over and over and each time I find something new, such as, I have always felt there was a significant reason to mention the "Snack Truck".  I now know why...there is a particular time it is always at Fermins Bar.  Let's say it routinely arrives at 3:30 AM each morning.  By saying the truck wasn't there it places him home at an earlier time and then allows for the Kalpoes to be the ones that did something to Natalee.   He's been pushing Deepak and Satish closer to that bus for a while now.  I would like to know what time this truck is there each night.

[adoronron]

Was just driving by reading the posts. Does the book say what time satish picked him up?

Ado

Not sure..I'll check

It better not be prior to 4 AM - he was still with her according to jorans latest lie - i was with her for 3 hours.

I'm not finding where HannieC is translating all of this.  It may be in the heated exchange area of RU and I don't have access.  I'll keep looking.

Klaas

No need to hurry. I have to go to the store but I'm not a quick as you. I'll be gone a couple of hours.
I still believe he never left his shoes at the beach and instead grabbed a pair at the raquet club and planted them at the beach to proof he was there.
Hell, the reason he smirked at Greta during her interview with him when she asked if the shoes he was wearing that night were similar to the ones he was wearing at the moment is probably because he was sitting there in front of Greta with the same shoe he had on that night.

Gotta go - will check back in a while.

[Lala'sMom]

Is there a police statement in the 171 docs concerning Flor?  I was just wondering.  Joran does mention this in one of  his many statements.  He knows they have checked his cell records.  I thought Val was the one that went to hotmail about that time?  That tells us what we have suspected all along.  Joran is using his account info.  HMMMMM

[klaasend]

Posted by Vivi at Freebirds and at RU:


Referring to Hannie's snippet from the book re:calls and times - the author has viewed police records & the call times stated are backed up by statements by JoeT (the 2:26 call from Joran to Deepak) and are roughly corroborated by PVs.

Here's the timeline with some interesting additions, also supported by PVs and forensic computer examination.

2:26 - 2:34 cell phone call from Joran to Deepak, 8 minutes. Deepak says Joran walking, bad connection.

2:34 - Val checks hotmail on VDS computer. Prior to Vals login, no computer activity shown since 10:30 when Joran logged in to check hotmail.

2:46- Deepak sends text to Joran asking him to call when he gets home.

NO INTERMEDIATE 3:00 a.m. call.

3:07 - val navigates to plane forum

3:11 - Joran sends text message to Flor.

3:13 -- [6 minutes after val logs on to forum on VDS computer] Joran sends text from cell to Deepak's MSN saying he's home and will go online.

3:25 - Deepak sends 4 messages from his MSN screen name to Joran's MSN screen name. Joran misses the messages and says he's in kitchen.

3:33 - Message sent from Joran's MSN screen name to Deepak's MSN screen name.

3:35 - Joran's hotmail accessed.

3:35 - Message from Joran's MSN name to Deepak's MSN name.

3:40, 3:45 - Soccer sites visited

3:46, 3:56 - Porn sites visited

4:30 - Joran's hotmail accessed

------

Observations:

1. Val, on a school night, logs on to hotmail at 2:34 a.m. out of the blue - coincidentally at the same moment Joran concludes a phone call to Deepak.

2. 8 minutes is an awfully long call asking for a ride home - while Natalee sits and waits on the beach. Deepak sends Satish to pick up Joran after they chat for 8 minutes? Nah.

2. 3:13 Joran sends text saying he's home - only 6 minutes after Val navigated to the plane forum. If Joran was home at that time as he told Deepak, he and Val would certainly have crossed paths.

3. 3:11 Joran texts Flor. First we've heard that Joran had any communications that night besides calls and messages with Deepak. Possibly arranging a pick up or asking that a message be relayed to someone else. This opens other possibilities.

4. Joran says he's home at 3:11 but then misses 4 computer messages from Deepak and no reply to Deepak until 3:35. Where's Val?

5. 3:56 - 4:30 - no computer activity logged. 4:30 Joran's hotmail is accessed.

6. Kock indicates that cell phone triangulation put Joran roughly at the beach area at both the 2:26 and 3:11 communications (Kock says 2:40 and 3:00, but he's off on the times and clearly talking about the only two calls/messages from Joran's phone to Deepak at 2:26 and 3:11).

Quote:
VAN SUSTEREN: All right. So your client, 2 o'clock to 3 o'clock, is on the Internet at home. I've been in his room. I've seen the computer, or at least where it was. And he gets phone calls at 2:40 and 3 a.m. from Joran. Where do the cell records place the phone that Joran is using at 2:40 and 3 o'clock in the morning?

KOCK: Well, there's not an exact pinpoint indication, but the general area is the area here in north in Palm Beach of the hotel.

VAN SUSTEREN: So it looks like he's not home at that hour, but someplace near the Marriott, is that right?

KOCK: That is correct. He is in this neighborhood.

----------

One possibility: Joran did not arrive home at 3:11 and did not log on hotmail or MSN, but had his brother log on to his account. Joran's hotmail is accessed at 4:30 - perhaps Joran was just arriving home at that hour, having been picked up by Paul.

[klaasend]

Is there a police statement in the 171 docs concerning Flor?  I was just wondering.  Joran does mention this in one of  his many statements.  He knows they have checked his cell records.  I thought Val was the one that went to hotmail about that time?  That tells us what we have suspected all along.  Joran is using his account info.  HMMMMM

Yes, at least 2..I'll find them...hold on

[adoronron]

HannieC wrote:
Snip out of the book;


" I`m going to stand under the roof of a Fishermanshut, to call; this way the seawind doesn`t bother me and i`m better to hear.

It`s 2.26 when I speak to Deepak, changing to Papiamento and Dutch, so Natalee can`t understand what I say.....I tell him what happened. I show off a little and lie: She has given me a bj.

Deepak says; You always are lucky!"..

Afer about 8 minutes we hang up the phone. Deepak will pick me up right away, he was just chatting with a Surinam girl. After about 15 minutes I hear from afar Deepak`s car coming.
I tell Natalee: "The car is here, last chance to come. But she still didn`t want to come. I leave Natalee behind."

I never even really said goodbye to her, or told her that I called someone to pick me up. I walk to the car, on the road which lays behind the Fishermanshuts.

"I see Satish sitting in the car, and open the door. What are you doing, he asks. I said, she doesn`t want to go to her hotel.

Satish; "Fok that bitch" ( that means as much as , let her..)
I got in the car quickly, without telling Natalee that I go, and we drove away".....

Snip out of the book about the times of the sms..;

2.46; Deepak send me and sms from his computer to my mobile; "Wait till you get home, misscall me"( That means; give me a missed call. Then you leave the phone rang one time, so the receiver sees that you called and can call you back. We mainly do that if we haven`t got enough credit)

3.11 "I send a sms to Flor..."
3.13 "I send a sms to Deepak: "Hey thanks swa, goodnight " I`m home are you online? I put on my computer and start MSN"....

( Joran was in the kitchen to get something to eat and drink at the moment Deepak sends him those messages on MSN)

3.25:38 - Deepak sends a message via MSN; "I`m going to sleep"
3.25:42 - Deepak send me a last message; " Take care"..

3.33:08 - I see Deepak`s messages and react: Hey swa", Deepak didn`t react....

3.35:32 - I write; "Topa pimp Hheehehe". After this I look at my hotmail account and on MSN...

3.40 - I visit the website fcbarcelona.com, livescore.com and soccernet.com...

3.46 - I visit the pornsite backseatbangers.com and 10 min. later nastydollars.com, where I download 2 pornmovies.....

4.30 - I look again at my hotmailaccount and MSN.....


(Note; These are all facts out of the policefiles )


NOTE FROM KLAASEND:  Joran is obviously writing this part with the computer and cell log statement in front of him.

Klaas,
Was getting ready to log off when I saw this. joran is a multi tasker supreme.
Seems that all at the same time he can
Walk home
Be picked up by depak
Be picked up by satish
Be with Natalee

Ado