Natalee Case Discussion #835 6/6/10 - 6/8/10

[Tylergal]

Joran more likely attempted sex (she was found in her underwear) but Stephany fought him...resisted him.  We know from his talking to the guy from PR earlier in the evening that Joran was looking to pick up a female.  The resistance could have been the trigger for the rage.

I just can't help but think that a very similar occurance happened between Joran and Natalee. I'm sure most monkeys know this, but as a reminder, in reading about date rape drugs this evening, on of the possible effects is "seizures".

I suppose I should be a lady and not print this here, but it was my thought that Joran had tried to force Stephany to give him a Monica, and she refused, and that infuriated him to think that she would not be delighted to do so.

[klaasend]

NEW FRONT PAGE POST:

http://scaredmonkeys.com/2010/06/07/joran-van-der-sloot-shamans-use-voodoo-like-dolls-to-spiritually-punish-jvds/

Joran Van der Sloot: Shamans Use Voodoo-like Doll to “Spiritually Punish JVDS

[Tylergal]

Anyone have any thoughts on how you think Anita will handle the latest with Joran, now that she doesn't have Paulus to help?

Wonder if she'll have a breakdown or if one of Paulus' old friends that are familiar with law will end up helping/guiding her?

No, her cell phone is on automatic dial to the Hague.

[TURBOTHINK]

Joran more likely attempted sex (she was found in her underwear) but Stephany fought him...resisted him.  We know from his talking to the guy from PR earlier in the evening that Joran was looking to pick up a female.  The resistance could have been the trigger for the rage.

I just can't help but think that a very similar occurance happened between Joran and Natalee. I'm sure most monkeys know this, but as a reminder, in reading about date rape drugs this evening, on of the possible effects is "seizures".

If I remember correctly puzzler, Natalie's mother stated one time that she had a seizure disorder. If that is right then stress or fear may have triggered a seizure for her and not the drug.

[Puzzler]

Mark Furhman just reported on Fox News, saying he was standing outside Hotel TAC
Evidence again Joran very strong in that Stephany walked into room w/Joran
digital surveillance very good – they sit at a desk watching 16 screens
no one exited that room except Joran
I was just up in the room and there are bars on the inside of the windows so the chance of anyone coming in or out of the windows is almost nil
Since it was Joran’s room, a lot of forensics could be explained away as being found in his room

[texasmom]

Joran more likely attempted sex (she was found in her underwear) but Stephany fought him...resisted him.  We know from his talking to the guy from PR earlier in the evening that Joran was looking to pick up a female.  The resistance could have been the trigger for the rage.

I just can't help but think that a very similar occurance happened between Joran and Natalee. I'm sure most monkeys know this, but as a reminder, in reading about date rape drugs this evening, on of the possible effects is "seizures".

If I remember correctly puzzler, Natalie's mother stated one time that she had a seizure disorder. If that is right then stress or fear may have triggered a seizure for her and not the drug.

You're not remembering correctly.  Natalee NEVER had a seizure disorder.  It's been stated many, many, many times by her family members most especially Beth.

[crazybabyborg]

Joran more likely attempted sex (she was found in her underwear) but Stephany fought him...resisted him.  We know from his talking to the guy from PR earlier in the evening that Joran was looking to pick up a female.  The resistance could have been the trigger for the rage.

I just can't help but think that a very similar occurance happened between Joran and Natalee. I'm sure most monkeys know this, but as a reminder, in reading about date rape drugs this evening, on of the possible effects is "seizures".

If I remember correctly puzzler, Natalie's mother stated one time that she had a seizure disorder. If that is right then stress or fear may have triggered a seizure for her and not the drug.

Hi Turbo! Natalee didn't have a seizure disorder, but she may have been given something to cause a seizure.

[TURBOTHINK]

Does anyone know if a "date rape drug" has a hypnotic effect to where the user can pretty much be commanded to do anything?  

If so, that would account for the odd interaction between Joran and Stephany in the video at the hostel...earlier discussion was that it was odd that she just held her head down and there was no conversation going on between them.  

One theory I have is that Stephany was unaccustomed to going into a dive motel and was keeping her head low because of embarrassment.  I believe she was there to get her money and go.  If she was drugged, that could be another reason she was detached from Joran and the situation on cameras.  JMHO

My first thought when I saw Stephany in the hotel video was she looked embarrassed. I would think she was probably very recognizable considering who her father is. Maybe she didn't want to be seen recognized in the
hotel.......it looked more like a dump/dive than any hotel to me. From her father's own mouth, he said Stephany was raised only seeing the more wealthy ways of living. She would have been uncomfortable in such seedy accommodations.IMO

Question: Did Stephany's father say who was selling her a laptop. Was it Joran? Maybe that's how he got her up to his room. He said he gave her $1000 for it, but I couldn't translate if she was buying it from a person or a store.

I got the impression it was more like a business deal. It did not appear at all that it was a romantic involvement. I wondered if he lost money to her and she drove him there under the pretense he had money there to pay her. All accounts of him at the tournament was he was a "rail hanger" (not someone playing in the tournament), but there are a lot of "side games" at tournaments like that and it is my guess he lost money to her and lured her there to collect the money.

My guess is when he got her there he tired his usual forcible sex by having put the date rape drug in her drink and she did not react like he wanted so he killed her.

[Tylergal]

After the court decision not to rearrest Van der Sloot was affirmed, Twitty stated, "I think that what I do take comfort in, his life is a living hell",[144] later adding, "I'd be good with a Midnight Express prison anywhere for Joran." --Beth, per Wikipedia, Natalee Holloway.

Do you think Beth really said that? I don't recall. I thought it was astonishing, given what's happened ...

I take anything on Wikipedia with a box of salt.

[TURBOTHINK]

Joran more likely attempted sex (she was found in her underwear) but Stephany fought him...resisted him.  We know from his talking to the guy from PR earlier in the evening that Joran was looking to pick up a female.  The resistance could have been the trigger for the rage.

I just can't help but think that a very similar occurance happened between Joran and Natalee. I'm sure most monkeys know this, but as a reminder, in reading about date rape drugs this evening, on of the possible effects is "seizures".

If I remember correctly puzzler, Natalie's mother stated one time that she had a seizure disorder. If that is right then stress or fear may have triggered a seizure for her and not the drug.

Hi Turbo! Natalee didn't have a seizure disorder, but she may have been given something to cause a seizure.

Where did I get that?  I could have sworn I read that her mother or Jug said that. I will research that because it is a very important side note. It could be that his apologists put that out there because I wondered if that was true if she did have a seizure he could have thought she was dead when she went into to the "resting state afterward" when she really wasn't and dumped the body when she was really alive.

[TURBOTHINK]

Joran more likely attempted sex (she was found in her underwear) but Stephany fought him...resisted him.  We know from his talking to the guy from PR earlier in the evening that Joran was looking to pick up a female.  The resistance could have been the trigger for the rage.

I just can't help but think that a very similar occurance happened between Joran and Natalee. I'm sure most monkeys know this, but as a reminder, in reading about date rape drugs this evening, on of the possible effects is "seizures".

If I remember correctly puzzler, Natalie's mother stated one time that she had a seizure disorder. If that is right then stress or fear may have triggered a seizure for her and not the drug.

You're not remembering correctly.  Natalee NEVER had a seizure disorder.  It's been stated many, many, many times by her family members most especially Beth.

Okay, then how did the seizure come up early in the case? He had to have seen her have a seizure for that to come out. I have not kept up with this case as well as I have the KC case, and I hate it I put this out there when it was not true.

[Puzzler]

After the court decision not to rearrest Van der Sloot was affirmed, Twitty stated, "I think that what I do take comfort in, his life is a living hell",[144] later adding, "I'd be good with a Midnight Express prison anywhere for Joran." --Beth, per Wikipedia, Natalee Holloway.

Do you think Beth really said that? I don't recall. I thought it was astonishing, given what's happened ...

I take anything on Wikipedia with a box of salt.

A few pages back, it was posted that Beth DID say that on one of Greta's shows.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,454527,00.html

[crazybabyborg]

"Coming Up" ( their term, so who knows when ) on Fox: They'll talk with somebody close to Joran's family about these latest developments in Natalee's case.

They didn't say who it is. I'm hoping it's not Reho.

[crazybabyborg]

Joran more likely attempted sex (she was found in her underwear) but Stephany fought him...resisted him.  We know from his talking to the guy from PR earlier in the evening that Joran was looking to pick up a female.  The resistance could have been the trigger for the rage.

I just can't help but think that a very similar occurance happened between Joran and Natalee. I'm sure most monkeys know this, but as a reminder, in reading about date rape drugs this evening, on of the possible effects is "seizures".

If I remember correctly puzzler, Natalie's mother stated one time that she had a seizure disorder. If that is right then stress or fear may have triggered a seizure for her and not the drug.

Hi Turbo! Natalee didn't have a seizure disorder, but she may have been given something to cause a seizure.

Where did I get that?  I could have sworn I read that her mother or Jug said that. I will research that because it is a very important side note. It could be that his apologists put that out there because I wondered if that was true if she did have a seizure he could have thought she was dead when she went into to the "resting state afterward" when she really wasn't and dumped the body when she was really alive.

Turbo? Jug and Beth were asked by ALE if Natalee had a seizure disorder early on. They said "no" and moved on. Later, after Joran described to Patrick what sounded like a seizure, Beth remembered the question and it lent weight to her belief that ALE knew what happened from the beginning.

[Northern Rose]

http://www.larepublica.pe/pagina_impreso.php?pub=larepublica&anho=2010&mes=06&dia=07&pid=1&sec=01&pag=1

[crazybabyborg]

As a matter of fact, IIRC, a tape from Dana's show became an issue around the seizure thing. I beleive that Jug had stated on the show that the seizure question was asked before the DeVries video was even made. That would have verified that Beth and Jug weren't "retro remembering" the question.

[MsVada]

Anyone have any thoughts on how you think Anita will handle the latest with Joran, now that she doesn't have Paulus to help?

Wonder if she'll have a breakdown or if one of Paulus' old friends that are familiar with law will end up helping/guiding her?

Well, since I never saw her grieving over Paulus's death, I imagine she will continue with life as usual, playing Bingo, not instilling good values in Sebastian, cohooting with the likes of Renho, and every other doofus on the Island who will have her.

I think Anita will continue to do what she has been all along,  She is an ENABLER,  She knows what he is doing, she knows its wrong/illegal, yet she does not have the stones to stand up and speak her mind because she knows in the end that Joran is violent and that scares her.  She has behaved as a submissive person. She did not know how to deal with the mess  then, she certainly isn't going to stir up the bees nest now.  She is a product of her upbringing where the women were controlled by their husbands.

[msmarple]

I'm not sure that this type of link works for videos, but MSNBC has some interesting stuff I haven't seen. I didn't listen, but the visuals are interesting and INCLUDE Natalee and Paulus at the same table in the casino, and a bare-chested Joran getting a medical once-over, I guess.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/37550183#37550183

Tyler - Turns out Beth did tell Greta, Nov. 2008, that she would be good with a "Midnight Express" type prison anywhere. (Not exact words.) I can't take time to find it right now, but it is so strange given this turn of events.

And Hi! Nice to see you.

[Tylergal]

Former attorney questioned Joran van der Sloot tests involving the murder of Stephany Dutchman Flores (with video)

Joseph Tacopina hinted that a third person would be responsible for murder. Also expressed its surprise that the body has been found in the room just three days after the crime

"How do you know that inside the room there was no third person waiting for them?" Asked the renowned lawyer Joseph Tacopina to question one of the strongest proofs that involve the citizen Dutchman Joran van der Sloot in the murder of the young Stephany Flores occurred on Sunday 30 May.

Joseph Tacopina, who successfully defended Van der Sloot in the case of the disappearance of Natalee Holloway American girl five years ago, referred to the fact that the Dutchman admitted with Stephany Flores Tac Miraflores hotel early 30 May, but was only hours later, according to security video showed the accommodation.

Thus, the lawyer also defended the late King of Pop Michael Jackson hinted that a third person would be responsible for crime.

In a telephone conversation from New York with the TV program "Panorama", Joseph Tacopina also expressed surprise at the time that passed between the alleged day of the murder and the discovery of the body of Stephany.

More soon ....

http://elcomercio.pe/noticia/490841/ex-abogado-joran-cuestiona-pruebas-que-involucran-holandes-asesinato-stephany

Poor Joey .... He just won't admit he knows Joran is a killer...even when he is not representing him..... pathetic. Joey, WE may not know who was in the room, but you can bet your boots w/ a camera that close to the door -- that the authorities know how many people went in and out of that room Joey, ya make me want to puke.......

Joe might change his mind if Julia and Dan do not come up with some money.

[Northern Rose]

He would have killed for money

New hypothesis. Police points to the bank accounts of Stephany Flores. Agents of the Homicide Division say Joran van der Sloot was able to force the girl to withdraw money or make a bank transfer.

One week before the murder of Tatiana Flores Stephany Ramirez, police still can not decipher a great mystery: why this crime. However, officers of the Homicide Division who boast of not discarding any hypothesis, now point to the bank accounts of the victim.

Researchers are almost convinced that, after being seduced by Joran van der Sloot, the young woman was allegedly forced him to make withdrawals of cash or bank transfer.

It is likely that the decline has been beaten to death on the morning of May 30.

"The Dutchman suspected psychopath fled with only the money he found at hand," said an official in charge of the investigation.

If the suspect attempted to steal using violence, triggering the death of the young could be sentenced to life imprisonment as provided for in the Penal Code.

But in the case of culpable homicide only the penalty goes up to 35 years in prison.

 "Killing for pleasure is an aggravating factor, the same as if the murder is committed with great ferocity or cruelty," the lawyer told RPP Julio Rodriguez.

He also said that in the event that these criminal attitudes have converged on the crime of Stephany, it would be before a "perfect competition" in law, ie, the confluence of several aggravating.

The Van der Sloot cell

Other detectives question arose from the spread of video TAC hotel where it is clear that Stephany 309 into the room without any portfolio.

However, sources confirmed Dirincri early Wednesday 2 June, when they discovered the body was found in the room the girl's purse with a cell phone, a nextel and credit cards.

In this line telephone crossovers will be crucial in the investigation.

The authorities said that during his stay in Lima, Van der Sloot was the cell phone No. 992 449 541.

"We are analyzing which received and made calls from that number," revealed agent Homicide.

In business agenda

This number was found in the agenda of 992692461 cell belonging to the Albanian businessman Elton Garcia, who met Joran and Stephany and Fiesta casinos in Atlantic City.

"That person (Joran) called me on my cell phone and said he had taken my number through another player (poker). Before this I saved it on my agenda, "Elton said in his statement of June 4 in the Dirincri and in the presence of fiscal Sofia Rivas La Madrid.

Stephany was lucid

On the other hand, the skills practiced in the blood samples will reveal whether the victim had or toxic substances in the body of the young.

That is, not yet detected the presence of alcohol or drugs.

Although not yet have the results of drug tests it appears that Stephany was lucid when he was killed.

Forensic experts found further that the victim had consumed a quantity of alcohol enough to be defenseless against an attack.

"It could be established that he was lucid but, nevertheless, offered little or no resistance," said one researcher.

Is marijuana user

Another report criminological evidence suggests that the murder would have happened after "a fit of anger."

"It is likely that the murderer is a drug, possibly marijuana," he says.

While this is a subjective report, and could be rebutted by other evidence, is the first time offered specific views on the alleged murderer's profile.

Netherlands back to the hotel

Joran van der Sloot, 22, is confined in the dungeons of the eighth floor of the headquarters of the Criminal Investigation Department.

Three actors take turns daily to watch closely.

"He's quiet and has proven foods that we have achieved," said the head of the Homicide Division, Colonel Angel Canlla prayed.

The alleged psychopath Dutchman speaks English, Netherlands and Spanish very well understood.

Last night would have made some inquiries with the detainee.

Van der Sloot will be transferred to the hotel TAC to establish the routine performed between 5:20 am Sunday May 30, when joined with the girl to the room 309 - 8:45 a.m. until he retired alone.

"There is evidence that Stephany was killed in that time, there's no doubt," said the Colonel experienced Canlla.

Did you know ...

Psychologist. This week will be completed psychological skills can be key and were suspended yesterday at the request of the alleged murderer.

Mineral water. Joran van der Sloot claimed to be exhausted from the long trip he made to Santiago de Chile to Lima. He slept seven hours and a half and asked enough mineral water.

U.S. would request his extradition

On June 4 Lima Interpol received a priority message 'urgent' Interpol Washington that bears the reference number 614 688 and as a matter of Joran van der Sloot.

The document indicates that at the request of the United States government "please locate the fugitive and immediately notify Washington and IPSG Interpol."

It also adds that "once you notify the authorities of the United States, if possible, formally requested the arrest order for the pension with a view to their extradition in accordance with any applicable extradition treaty."

http://www.larepublica.pe/archive/all/larepublica/20100607/1/node/270827/total/01