Natalee Case Discussion #781 12/3/08 - 12/5/08

[Anna]

http://finance.google.com/finance?q=OTC:DEEP


When they left to look for Natalee the stock was trading at around $13.00 and soon was down to $0.16 and I think that is what caused the lawsuit.

Now what this has to do with anything related to Natalee, I can't make a connection.

I've read and posted this info and still can't make a connection that I believe.  I just have more questions, Anna.

I already said G'nite, but I'm still here...same o same o

Yep, I posted it at the time it was happening as well and no one was in the least interested.  I do think some are confusing Silveti and Schaefer perhaps.

But in order for any of this to even matter, one has to first believe for a fact Natalee's remains were in that cage and I am just not convinced that they were.  Nor that they were dismembered and spread all over the place either as that's just too over the top.

And I sure don't understand why we are supposed to be guessing things like initials.

And I thought it was a physician who had the fake credentials and not a lawyer, maybe even the august and esteemed Boushi Wever but can't find anything on it.

Oh, well.  I will just lurk and read and see where all of this goes but can't really make sense of any of it that is believable to me.

[2NJSons_Mom]

SS wrote:

these are big issues and as a group, we are here to ask questions until we get answers

Precisely why I don't interfere with the direction the discussions have been going.  Who am I to say what is the truth?  I want to believe that the Persistence and Caps are all on Natalee's side.  All any of us wants is justice for Natalee and her family. 

I agree with both of you.  I've had my share of questions and still can't make heads or tails out of the current discussion.  I, too, want to believe that justice for Natalee & her family was/is the focus of the Persistence and Caps. 

G'nite.

PS...I also read the post Hotshot referenced about Kyle's baby, but not the poster.....

check it once, check it twice,....then post it.    http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4173.msg556327;topicseen#msg556327

I did find it afterwards....I see my grammar was pretty bad in that quoted post...

[Anna]

http://finance.google.com/finance?q=OTC:DEEP

All info on all traded stock is available on the internet of course.

[texasmom]

I am guessing that the lawyer must be on the prosecution side
or he wouldn't be on the call roll.

Kermit has been saying for a long time that we should
stay focused and not be diverted by the witness.

Why would anyone want to divert attention away from
the trap and the "human remains" found there?
One of those diverting is Caps, one is John Silvetti and one
is Clyde Burke, of ALE.

How can you even say CAPS is a diverter?  He has worked so hard on this case...... Kermit is making you focus on her, and its all silly, and can not be proved in any way......Its really sad that you all are fixed on that one thing that can not even be shown as any kind of proof.  Yes by the way CAPS can not keep a connection with the internet.  YES they are onto him, and yes, he is still able to help where he can.  You guys are going to look really silly in the end for downing the people like silvetti, and Kyle, and CAPS.  There must be more to do with your time then pick on the ones who actually go out of their way to help.  I do not see anyone here going out there to actually help as these people did.  And by the way Kermit, do NOT post anymore of Beths letters.........She will not be a happy camper.  She already knows whats going on with that.

Hotshot,
I have always looked forward to your posts from the beginning, and those of CAPS and Kyle. But, the recent posts by Kermit and the interchanges btwn Kermit/CAPS/Kyle seem to weigh in favor of Kermit.
If you could be more clear on this post as to the meaning of this:
And by the way Kermit, do NOT post anymore of Beths letters.........She will not be a happy camper.  She already knows whats going on with that.
I think the innuendos (intentional or not) are really confusing.....Help me understand please.

Bill, I too talk with Beth, and she does not want to be posted here as to what is said in private.  Kermit asked Beth in a private letter is she wanted her to expose the corruption.......Beth thinking the corruption of Aruba......Kermit went and posted Beths reply that said sure or something to that effect....then Kermit comes out with all this outrageous stuff.  Beth wants in no way to have her personal emails on any sites....And thats as far as I am going with this.  You may have your opinions and side with Kermit, but think about this, really think about this...You really think these people went out to Aruba to scan for oil crap when they didnt even come close to Venezuela?  They left there for a reason, and if the pictures dont tell you why, I dont know what will....Persistance has what they need, and so do the FBI.  just because they are not talking doesnt mean they are not working.

I'm a few pages behind, so forgive me if this has already been asked.

I think when the ocean search finally started I actually thought and/or assumed that the purpose was to find Natalie and bring her home.  Period.  After being so jerked around by ALE, AHATA, etc. - they having no respect for the rule of law, the very last thing I expected was that if something was found it would be reported to ALE prior to recovery.

I just naturally assumed 'we' would play the game the way they'd been playing it if thats what it took.  I expected TES, Silvetti, et al - upon finding that trap to recover the evidence themselves surreptiously - whether that complied Aruban law or not.  Get it the evidence, bring it home to Beth and Dave, have it analyzed at a private facility - then, once the truth is finally known - turn it over to the FBI and apologize, "oops, we got confused, we just didn't understand their laws." 

They don't respect their rule of law, but we're supposed to?  At the price of truth and justice?

Did anyone else have the same expectation? 

I just can't believe that Dave and Beth, or esp. Tim Miller, actually agreed to turn over any evidence found to ALE.  Legal or illegal.

Lifesong,
From my understanding Tim Miller was not on board Persistence when the evidence was taken.  I hope this helps, I had the same reaction that you did when first trying to comprehend all of this.  I can't help but believe that it would not have happened the way it did had Tim Miller been on board; or he would have damn well tried to do something about it!  JMO

[Lifesong]

I am guessing that the lawyer must be on the prosecution side
or he wouldn't be on the call roll.

Kermit has been saying for a long time that we should
stay focused and not be diverted by the witness.

Why would anyone want to divert attention away from
the trap and the "human remains" found there?
One of those diverting is Caps, one is John Silvetti and one
is Clyde Burke, of ALE.

How can you even say CAPS is a diverter?  He has worked so hard on this case...... Kermit is making you focus on her, and its all silly, and can not be proved in any way......Its really sad that you all are fixed on that one thing that can not even be shown as any kind of proof.  Yes by the way CAPS can not keep a connection with the internet.  YES they are onto him, and yes, he is still able to help where he can.  You guys are going to look really silly in the end for downing the people like silvetti, and Kyle, and CAPS.  There must be more to do with your time then pick on the ones who actually go out of their way to help.  I do not see anyone here going out there to actually help as these people did.  And by the way Kermit, do NOT post anymore of Beths letters.........She will not be a happy camper.  She already knows whats going on with that.

Hotshot,
I have always looked forward to your posts from the beginning, and those of CAPS and Kyle. But, the recent posts by Kermit and the interchanges btwn Kermit/CAPS/Kyle seem to weigh in favor of Kermit.
If you could be more clear on this post as to the meaning of this:
And by the way Kermit, do NOT post anymore of Beths letters.........She will not be a happy camper.  She already knows whats going on with that.
I think the innuendos (intentional or not) are really confusing.....Help me understand please.

Bill, I too talk with Beth, and she does not want to be posted here as to what is said in private.  Kermit asked Beth in a private letter is she wanted her to expose the corruption.......Beth thinking the corruption of Aruba......Kermit went and posted Beths reply that said sure or something to that effect....then Kermit comes out with all this outrageous stuff.  Beth wants in no way to have her personal emails on any sites....And thats as far as I am going with this.  You may have your opinions and side with Kermit, but think about this, really think about this...You really think these people went out to Aruba to scan for oil crap when they didnt even come close to Venezuela?  They left there for a reason, and if the pictures dont tell you why, I dont know what will....Persistance has what they need, and so do the FBI.  just because they are not talking doesnt mean they are not working.

I'm a few pages behind, so forgive me if this has already been asked.

I think when the ocean search finally started I actually thought and/or assumed that the purpose was to find Natalie and bring her home.  Period.  After being so jerked around by ALE, AHATA, etc. - they having no respect for the rule of law, the very last thing I expected was that if something was found it would be reported to ALE prior to recovery.

I just naturally assumed 'we' would play the game the way they'd been playing it if thats what it took.  I expected TES, Silvetti, et al - upon finding that trap to recover the evidence themselves surreptiously - whether that complied Aruban law or not.  Get it the evidence, bring it home to Beth and Dave, have it analyzed at a private facility - then, once the truth is finally known - turn it over to the FBI and apologize, "oops, we got confused, we just didn't understand their laws." 

They don't respect their rule of law, but we're supposed to?  At the price of truth and justice?

Did anyone else have the same expectation? 

I just can't believe that Dave and Beth, or esp. Tim Miller, actually agreed to turn over any evidence found to ALE.  Legal or illegal.

On this topic Lifesong.Go to Kermit's profile and read all the posts,as well as Oceanexploration.You will form your own opinion..

Thanks, Keepthefaith, but I've read them all.  Was here onsite when Kermit originally posted the pictures and participated in the discussion that day. 

I don't post much, haven't even logged in much again until recently, but I've been a monkey since June/July 2005. (I was here the 'zoo geeper' night with Bendix, Hat, etc.)

What were your expectations?  That the Persistance would grab the goods and come home, or that they'd call ALE and report that they'd found something?

[Hotshot]

You all seem to jump to conclusions that everything was handed over to the incompetent ALE.......  Did you ever stop to think that maybe there was a reason they took off so fast?  Do you really think they are that stupid to not cover their butts?  Hellooooo, Tim has been through it already, many times.  Loose lips do sink ships.  Maybe we are not supposed to be discussing those things here for everyone like Aruba to read.

keepthefaith, you have already made you decisions, i will let you wonder, your only going to believe what you want to believe anyway, and thats your choice. 

I am going to bed now.  good night!

[Keepthefaith]

I am guessing that the lawyer must be on the prosecution side
or he wouldn't be on the call roll.

Kermit has been saying for a long time that we should
stay focused and not be diverted by the witness.

Why would anyone want to divert attention away from
the trap and the "human remains" found there?
One of those diverting is Caps, one is John Silvetti and one
is Clyde Burke, of ALE.

How can you even say CAPS is a diverter?  He has worked so hard on this case...... Kermit is making you focus on her, and its all silly, and can not be proved in any way......Its really sad that you all are fixed on that one thing that can not even be shown as any kind of proof.  Yes by the way CAPS can not keep a connection with the internet.  YES they are onto him, and yes, he is still able to help where he can.  You guys are going to look really silly in the end for downing the people like silvetti, and Kyle, and CAPS.  There must be more to do with your time then pick on the ones who actually go out of their way to help.  I do not see anyone here going out there to actually help as these people did.  And by the way Kermit, do NOT post anymore of Beths letters.........She will not be a happy camper.  She already knows whats going on with that.

Hotshot,
I have always looked forward to your posts from the beginning, and those of CAPS and Kyle. But, the recent posts by Kermit and the interchanges btwn Kermit/CAPS/Kyle seem to weigh in favor of Kermit.
If you could be more clear on this post as to the meaning of this:
And by the way Kermit, do NOT post anymore of Beths letters.........She will not be a happy camper.  She already knows whats going on with that.
I think the innuendos (intentional or not) are really confusing.....Help me understand please.

Bill, I too talk with Beth, and she does not want to be posted here as to what is said in private.  Kermit asked Beth in a private letter is she wanted her to expose the corruption.......Beth thinking the corruption of Aruba......Kermit went and posted Beths reply that said sure or something to that effect....then Kermit comes out with all this outrageous stuff.  Beth wants in no way to have her personal emails on any sites....And thats as far as I am going with this.  You may have your opinions and side with Kermit, but think about this, really think about this...You really think these people went out to Aruba to scan for oil crap when they didnt even come close to Venezuela?  They left there for a reason, and if the pictures dont tell you why, I dont know what will....Persistance has what they need, and so do the FBI.  just because they are not talking doesnt mean they are not working.

I'm a few pages behind, so forgive me if this has already been asked.

I think when the ocean search finally started I actually thought and/or assumed that the purpose was to find Natalie and bring her home.  Period.  After being so jerked around by ALE, AHATA, etc. - they having no respect for the rule of law, the very last thing I expected was that if something was found it would be reported to ALE prior to recovery.

I just naturally assumed 'we' would play the game the way they'd been playing it if thats what it took.  I expected TES, Silvetti, et al - upon finding that trap to recover the evidence themselves surreptiously - whether that complied Aruban law or not.  Get it the evidence, bring it home to Beth and Dave, have it analyzed at a private facility - then, once the truth is finally known - turn it over to the FBI and apologize, "oops, we got confused, we just didn't understand their laws." 

They don't respect their rule of law, but we're supposed to?  At the price of truth and justice?

Did anyone else have the same expectation? 

I just can't believe that Dave and Beth, or esp. Tim Miller, actually agreed to turn over any evidence found to ALE.  Legal or illegal.

On this topic Lifesong.Go to Kermit's profile and read all the posts,as well as Oceanexploration.You will form your own opinion..

Thanks, Keepthefaith, but I've read them all.  Was here onsite when Kermit originally posted the pictures and participated in the discussion that day. 

I don't post much, haven't even logged in much again until recently, but I've been a monkey since June/July 2005. (I was here the 'zoo geeper' night with Bendix, Hat, etc.)

What were your expectations?  That the Persistance would grab the goods and come home, or that they'd call ALE and report that they'd found something?

"If" you have what you need!What are you now trying to accomplish??Who's corrupt and complicit in the cover-up??We have no jurisdiction in Aruba.Without cooperation from the Hague i don't think much will get accomplished other then the story being told which is what i would definitly appreciate.Sending all those rats to prison would be nice...

[Lifesong]

Yep, I posted it at the time it was happening as well and no one was in the least interested.  I do think some are confusing Silveti and Schaefer perhaps.

But in order for any of this to even matter, one has to first believe for a fact Natalee's remains were in that cage and I am just not convinced that they were.  Nor that they were dismembered and spread all over the place either as that's just too over the top.

And I sure don't understand why we are supposed to be guessing things like initials.

And I thought it was a physician who had the fake credentials and not a lawyer, maybe even the august and esteemed Boushi Wever but can't find anything on it.

Oh, well.  I will just lurk and read and see where all of this goes but can't really make sense of any of it that is believable to me.

Hooray, Anna!  I completely agree! 

I'm not necessarily of the opinion that Caps is anything but well-intentioned - I'm just not convinced that the connections he makes actually exist in the case.  And WTH is up with the guess the initials game - this is a murder case, not a board game.  All part of what makes Kermit more believable lately, imo.  At least she's posting clear, concise information that she's backing up with something other than "I know" or "I found out".

Let me ask you, if you're still online - last winter when the Persistance finally started the search, did you expect that if they found something they'd tell ALE before they grabbed it?  That's the sticking point for me - I don't believe Dave and Beth and Tim Miller would agree to the search under those conditions, even it was the law.  We certainly knew by then that if ALE got their hands on evidence it would disappear.  I thought they'd grab it, bring it home, and apologize later.  Still holding out hope that's what actually happened.

[SS]

http://finance.google.com/finance?q=OTC:DEEP


When they left to look for Natalee the stock was trading at around $13.00 and soon was down to $0.16 and I think that is what caused the lawsuit.

Now what this has to do with anything related to Natalee, I can't make a connection.

I've read and posted this info and still can't make a connection that I believe.  I just have more questions, Anna.

I already said G'nite, but I'm still here...same o same o

Yep, I posted it at the time it was happening as well and no one was in the least interested.  I do think some are confusing Silveti and Schaefer perhaps.

But in order for any of this to even matter, one has to first believe for a fact Natalee's remains were in that cage and I am just not convinced that they were.  Nor that they were dismembered and spread all over the place either as that's just too over the top.

And I sure don't understand why we are supposed to be guessing things like initials.

And I thought it was a physician who had the fake credentials and not a lawyer, maybe even the august and esteemed Boushi Wever but can't find anything on it.

Oh, well.  I will just lurk and read and see where all of this goes but can't really make sense of any of it that is believable to me.

According to Kermit and based on an email from Kyle, Louis Schafer sold the photographs to an unnamed source for a documentary.  According to Kermit and based on an email from Kyle, he (Kyle) had discussed the sale of the photographs with several networks, a producer, and Peter de Vries.  This really makes me angry if these transactions were taking place before Beth and Dave or our FBI had any knowledge of the photographs or the contents of the cage. From what Kermit has told us, ALE didn't even know about the photographs.  I do have to admit that I would love to have been a mouse in the woodwork when Mos found out.

[Anna]

Whoa, I'm not jumping to any conclusions!  I still more or less stand by my old KISS theories.  Not sure ANY of this has anything factually to do with Natalee's disappearance.

One last thought then I am out for the night.

It is true we do NOT have ANY jurisdiction in Aruba of ANY kind.  If the case is closed against Joran or if it is closed completely, we do NOT have any right to do anything at all unless invited.

Natalee's family has filed to have the investigative material released to them should the case be officially closed but it would be up to an Aruban judge to grant that.

Unfortunately, they can close this case and we will never see what is in the official ALE files.  And we are not about to offend a sovereign nation that allows us our closest FOB to Chavez most especially with all the subversive activities which now include Russia.

So we will only ever see what they allow us to see.  Our only leverage is economic and against their tourist industry that has been hip deep in this since the onset and likely since the night Beth arrived in Aruba for the first time.

[Lifesong]

You all seem to jump to conclusions that everything was handed over to the incompetent ALE.......  Did you ever stop to think that maybe there was a reason they took off so fast?  Do you really think they are that stupid to not cover their butts?  Hellooooo, Tim has been through it already, many times.  Loose lips do sink ships.  Maybe we are not supposed to be discussing those things here for everyone like Aruba to read.

keepthefaith, you have already made you decisions, i will let you wonder, your only going to believe what you want to believe anyway, and thats your choice. 

I am going to bed now.  good night!

Hotshot, I don't think we're jumping to conclusions that everything was handed over to the incompetent ALE.  We were told that everything was handed over to the incompetent ALE!  Kyle told us that the Aruban divers dived from their own boat, recovered the evidence, and returned to their own boat.

I pray that's not the truth.  It's been my problem with the believability of the ocean search since the beginning.  Why go to the trouble at all in that case.

[Keepthefaith]

You all seem to jump to conclusions that everything was handed over to the incompetent ALE.......  Did you ever stop to think that maybe there was a reason they took off so fast?  Do you really think they are that stupid to not cover their butts?  Hellooooo, Tim has been through it already, many times.  Loose lips do sink ships.  Maybe we are not supposed to be discussing those things here for everyone like Aruba to read.

keepthefaith, you have already made you decisions, i will let you wonder, your only going to believe what you want to believe anyway, and thats your choice.  

I am going to bed now.  good night!

As you know more then i HotShot.what day officially did the Persistence leave the Dutch Antilles water's.You must remember.I live in Seattle.The Seahawks suck right now,the Sonics are now in Oklahoma City,The Washington Huskies have not won a Football game this year,the Mariners suck(hopefully that'll change).OK.You get the picture.Having a bad year.LOL.I'm truly looking for a positve end to the year..Nothing more,nothing less.

[SS]

Hotshot - from the very beginning I have been one of the biggest supporters of Caps.  If I find out that he's been jerking us around, he's going right to the top of my fecal roster.

[Anna]

If the photographs were sold as Natalee's remains, where is the breaking news and resulting use of them in that regard?  Why did whomever bought them not use them for big bombshell ratings?
Are they just sitting on them after purchasing them for big bucks?  That makes no sense either.

I don't really have an opinion on what the crew of the Persistence would do if they thought they had found evidence but because nothing ever came of it, purloined or not, it tends to lean toward it not being Natalee in the cage, IMO.

In fact, we don't have any proof of her remains being anywhere or this case would be much closer to resolution.

JMO

[Keepthefaith]

Hotshot - from the very beginning I have been one of the biggest supporters of Caps.  If I find out that he's been jerking us around, he's going right to the top of my fecal roster.

Me personally SS.I hold absolutely no ill will towards any Monkey.What are we without the ability to question???Sounds like the country of ARUBA..

[SS]

If the photographs were sold as Natalee's remains, where is the breaking news and resulting use of them in that regard?  Why did whomever bought them not use them for big bombshell ratings?
Are they just sitting on them after purchasing them for big bucks?  That makes no sense either.

I don't really have an opinion on what the crew of the Persistence would do if they thought they had found evidence but because nothing ever came of it, purloined or not, it tends to lean toward it not being Natalee in the cage, IMO.

In fact, we don't have any proof of her remains being anywhere or this case would be much closer to resolution.

JMO

You're absolutely correct, Anna.  We have no proof.  I have suspected that it could even be Jalitza Wever in the cage, but we have no way of knowing one way or the other, because ALE has the remains.

[Lifesong]

You all seem to jump to conclusions that everything was handed over to the incompetent ALE.......  Did you ever stop to think that maybe there was a reason they took off so fast?  Do you really think they are that stupid to not cover their butts?  Hellooooo, Tim has been through it already, many times.  Loose lips do sink ships.  Maybe we are not supposed to be discussing those things here for everyone like Aruba to read.

keepthefaith, you have already made you decisions, i will let you wonder, your only going to believe what you want to believe anyway, and thats your choice.  

I am going to bed now.  good night!

As you know more then i HotShot.what day officially did the Persistence leave the Dutch Antilles water's.You must remember.I live in Seattle.The Seahawks suck right now,the Sonics are now in Oklahoma City,The Washington Huskies have not won a Football game this year,the Mariners suck(hopefully that'll change).OK.You get the picture.Having a bad year.LOL.I'm truly looking for a positve end to the year..Nothing more,nothing less.

I'm not HotShot, but I did find an answer to your question.  Looks like the Persistence left on March 2, 2008.

"Below are some pictures of the Persistence leaving
Aruba and heading for home…
Godspeed to the crew."

http://blogsfornatalee.com/2008/03/02/tribute-to-the-rv-persistence/

and

Posted by LegallyLex:

It is with sadness that I am reporting to everyone that the Persistence leaves Aruba tomorrow heading for home. As you are aware, the side scan sonar search is complete. There are many many targets for the ROV to look at. Sadly, this will not happen with [...]

http://blogsfornatalee.com/2008/03/01/the-rv-persistence-to-leave-aruba/

[caesu]

Aruban Justice Minister Rudy Croes confirms Police Chief Jan van der Straten has intentionally messed up the investigation in the first days to protect his friend Paul van der Sloot.

- arrested Joran and Kalpoe bros. only after 10 days
- Rudy Croes heard Jan van der Straten say: "I can't do this to my friend".
- a lot of phone communication between Jan and Paul
- a 2nd grade investigation team was used. "the team the used for carnaval" - meaning petty crimes.
- Rudy Croes wants a fresh investigation
- Paul and Jan helped each other 'as Dutch friends'.

further:

- he criticizes the Dutch gov. for not giving moral support to Aruba while Aruba's name gets besmudged internationally.
- Dutch gov. wanted Aruba to hide as much as possible that Joran was Dutch.
- Joran had to appear as an Aruba - a Dutch minister personally requested this. (Rudy Croes won't give the minster's name). > reminds me of the Most Wanted program, the actor playing Joran was dark skinned.

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/2714185/___Politie_hielp_Paul_van_der_Sloot___.html

[EURobert]

http://tinyurl.com/5dpgee

Google transl.

DADDY VAN DER SLOOT HELPED JORAN

The Dutchman Jan van der Straten in 2005 as Police in Aruba in the Natalee Holloway case was put, the research in the early stages seriously hindered. This to his friend Paul van der Sloot to help protect his son Joran who was suspected of involvement in the disappearance of the U.S..

This has the Aruban Justice Minister Rudy Croes confirmed Thursday. The allegation already circulating on the island. The minister has agreed to come outside because Van der streets this week in the media criticism voiced at the Aruban police force.

Aware

According to Croes, it seems that the old Police Joran and two other defendants knowingly pick up only after ten days, “while the first crucial days in a disappearance case”. In an interview heard the Minister Van der Straten then say: ‘This is my friend Paul that.”Croes finds it suspicious that when there was a lot of telephone traffic between Paul van der Sloot and van der Straten investigator. Van der Straten would be a further, second-team”police have deployed, just after Natales disappearance. ‘That was the inflection team, a team that is deployed”during carnival, light Croes again. He wants a new investigation comes to the role of Van der Straten and Van der Sloot: If two Dutch friends, Paul and Jan helped each other.”

Criticism

Also on the Dutch government from the Aruban Minister some criticism. ‘Until this day we get no international moral support of the Netherlands, while the Aruban name is sullied. In 2005, we were asked if possible to suppress that Joran is a Dutchman. He had as many as possible Aruban. It has a Dutch minister I am not saying who-personally invited.”

[Frank]

caesu,

Any way to get a feel for the 150 comments after the article?

It's the Dirty Police after all. Maybe Rudy Croes is breaking down or something, it sounds like he's telling the truth actually.

Wonder if Joe T. can confirm those calls since he's seen the police files?