Natalee Case Discussion #813 3/31/09 - 4/5/09

[Magnolia]

I found this youtube by accident and loved it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eMFzwwYnA0

[Monkey Mia]

attack the facts and figures, not me 

Why should we bother to attack the facts and figures you have posted?

They are utter hogwash.

No they are not.

[Monkey Mia]

Hello. . . Hello. . . .Testing 1 2 3

Is this thing turned on?

Johan, you DO see the central support post, don't you?  Guess where that is placed?  In the CENTER of the trap or half way across the 7.5 width.  Not 1/3.

Anna, Look at the picture dated 12/29/07 time 17:56 that shows the whole cage.  There are nine grids.  The whole cage is 7.5 feet by 7.5 feet by 2.5 feet high.  There are two sections where the side mesh is missing.  You can see into the collection of sand in question and that is on one grid.  Now look at 12/29/07 time 17:47.  The vertical post you are saying is the middle is really a vertical at the corner of the front left grid and even clearer is the color enhanced closeup of 12/29/07 time 17:57.  Now put some 2.5 foot 2 inch pipes on the floor in a square and see how much of your body you can get in half of that grid. 

[Magnolia]

OK Monkey Mia.....what are your credentials and how do you know that what Johan
says is true. I'll listen.
Klye Kingman, who is trained in this field seems to think otherwise.

[Monkey Mia]

An underwater light refraction occurs at the front glass, flat glass in the housing separates from the water. As a standard lens behaves as a weak telephoto lens,
 and the objects appear larger than they are.

So having the approximate measurements helps.  It is based on that and not just the appearance.

There is only one internal support and logic dictates it would be in the center and not one third over.

No, logic does not dictate that.  Logic dictates that the pipes making the framework are welded to each other to make the grid and not a pipe stuck in the middle of a fragile mesh.  I see a second one diagonally to the back and right of that one. 

[hotping]

It's Friday Night....

I've been trying not to mention it...but I'm sure you've noticed KTF...

Hotping 

and

billb

have both been mysteriously absent....

       

        

Hi Lifesong.....I was missing for a day and a half....I had to go out of town to a funeral and I got about an hour from home and realized that I had forgotten My laptop...Well it was to late to turn back.....So I'm just now catching up....it looks like things are getting very interesting.....For Now I'm signing off but I will be here tomorrow.....Thanks for noticing I was missing.....I would have much rather been here than at the funeral of a 34 yr old Young Friend who lost His life to Liver Disease..... His parents are devastated to say the least...He Graduated High School with My Oldest Son....  It was a Very Exhausting trip Emotionally and Physically....


Good Night All! 

[Monkey Mia]

OK Monkey Mia.....what are your credentials and how do you know that what Johan
says is true. I'll listen.
Klye Kingman, who is trained in this field seems to think otherwise.

What are your credentials?  It is simple math. 

[billb's daughter]

OK Monkey Mia.....what are your credentials and how do you know that what Johan
says is true. I'll listen.
Klye Kingman, who is trained in this field seems to think otherwise.

What are your credentials?  It is simple math. 

Credentials? OK...lets play that game.
I stand by kyle's credentials when he laid a pic of Natalee in the cage and declared that the remains fit her
stature.
Are you discounting kyle's credentials and his posts?
Please explain...I'm listening.

[texasmom]

I found this youtube by accident and loved it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eMFzwwYnA0

I love it too!

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/5eMFzwwYnA0&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/5eMFzwwYnA0&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1</a>

[texasmom]

4/2/2009 Awe Mainta Page 25

http://awemainta.com/home/



Papiamentu translation:

minister president owing to haci aperture of one establecimento new at san nicolas

diabierna night did take lugar aperture oficial of the bar y restaurant foxy lady situa at san nicolas. this is one establecimento exclusivo y of alta calidad cu will help at eleva the desaroyo in the districto here. minister president sr. nelson oduber - in presencia of the owner, sr. alex mathew y family, parlamentarionan y several another invitado - had the honor of haci the aperture here. past owing to felicita sr. mathew y desea his person all clase of exito cu his lugar new. without doubt some cu the inversion here, once more confianza is being demostra in the desaroyo positive of san nicolas y becindario.

4/3/2009 Awe Mainta Page 25

http://awemainta.com/home/



Papiamentu translation:

imigracion owing to celebra his 40 aniversario was diabierne ultimo, at balashi garden, owing to dicidi of celebra cu one brindis, the mature cu aruba have his departamento of imigracion his 40 year of existencia. dicho departamento, now is cay directamente bao of iasa. present n’e celebracion here, was the.o. minister of husticia, rudy croes, y several acolyte of fraccion of parliament of mep. also another personanan cu have relacion cu aeropuerto, without forget esnan of harbour.

4/3/2009 Bondia Page 13A

http://bondia.com/

[texasmom]

Truth & Justice for Natalee!

BUMPED

[sharon]

THE FACTS - NO MATH REQUIRED

Natalee Holloway was targeted.

While at C&C, Natalee Holloway was most likely drugged and she was intentionally separated from her friends.

Natalee Holloway was seen leaving C&C wih Joran VanderSloot, and the Kalpoe brothers, Deepak and Satish -- in Deepak Kalpoe's car.....

AND NATALEE HAS NEVER BEEN HEARD FROM OR SEEN AGAIN

AVOID ARUBA AS IF YOUR LIFE DEPENDS ON IT...IT DOES!!
Justice for Natalee Holloway -- Peace for her family and loved ones.

chirp
.

[klaasend]

FACT

Draw a 30" x 30" square on the ground.  Lay down in that square diagonally.  Unless you are over 5'8", tell me that your TORSO does not fit into that area. Keep in mind there is no longer flesh, only bone and some fabric

[Anna]

You are free to think whatever about the construction of the cage.  I have only tried to help explain that the remains are on the door of the cage which I believe to be larger than just one grid.  At least two and the measurements were approximate.  If you use the larger 2.5 and the degree of the angle, it fits.

42" diagonally even using the smaller figure. 

If you think the door is only one grid, that's your perogative but I happen to think it was larger than  2 x 2 ft square.

Apparently Kyle Kingman thought so as well.

[Anna]

It's the same thing as the diagonal measurement of a TV screen.

Wider than either side on the bias measurement.

[Anna]

Also based on the fabric measurement stops at the bottom of the short skirt.

Not full body measurement.

But Kyle's measurements were double checked by poster who is far better at the math than I am. 

I believe the diagonal measurement is as stated in the photo posted by Klaas and that the content is only from the hem of the skirt up.  Not full body measurement.

And yes, I think it would fit for adult Natalee's size.

But I don't know if it was Natalee or not because the entire contents of the trap were given exclusively to the divers from ALE and ALE has a long history of vanishing and discounting evidence starting with blood that turned to chocolate.

[Anna]

TxMom

What do you think of this man as a match for the one in the white shirt we were trying to ID recently?

[Tamikosmom]

THE ANALYSIS

KYLE KINGMAN - IN HIS OWN WORDS

Kyle Kingman:  The trap was symmetrical in width and length at approximately 7.5 ft. It was approximately 2.25-2.5 ft high.  You're correct about the ROV video lens distorting perspective due to the paralax view lens. 

Kyle Kingman: I took the proportions of the body form from the head, to shoulder, to a 90 degree angle which I believed to be the hem line of Natalee's skirt. I then took those proportions and matched them to the photo of Natalee with what she was last seen wearing. The proportions matched within an inch from head, to shoulder, to skirt line. Based on this comparison and with what we believed we saw in the Dec 29th video, Tim Miller contacted the family and told them the 99.9% comment. I told Tim not to do anything until we have forensic results back after the site is processed. Jan 7th we sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured. If it isn't her, it will forever haunt me as a major cosmic WTF.
 
Kyle Kingman:  This is how the Dateline episode happened:
Dateline (Tim Uelinger) had an agreement with Tim Miller to 'do a story to tell about and help promote TES and give TM recognition, and perhaps a 10 minute side-line story on Natalee along with 11 other missing persons. Dateline tagged along with TM for a while pre-NH search. They (TM and Dateline) came on the Persistence between 15-Dec and 30-Dec. I found the trap on 1:45am Christmas morning. I got the OK to begin our ROV dive series for the 29th, so I made it our first dive. We got visual of the fish trap and that it was suspicious. Basically, the fish trap door was open and there appeared to be a skull and torso-shape in sand on the door inside the trap Reviewing the 29-Dec video I noticed the torso shape in sand had a 90 degree angle and that the sand was supported from falling through the bottom of the trap, which was slightly excavated by currents. I proportioned out the distance from the top of the head, to shoulder, to that 90 degree angle and it was a match to Natalee's photo of her standing -head, to shoulder, to the end of her denim skirt. I showed TM the proportional match and the possibility of a skirt under the sand and he said he's going to tell the parents. I said definitely not until we sample the trap and get results. He made the call to Dave and Beth independently.

Kyle Kingman: The portion of the discolored blue fabric was presumably on the bottom of the fabric. In my opinion this discoloration is not another type of fabric, but rather biological staining or discoloration from biological growth caused from a high organic carbon content and decay. Basically, during decay a biological mat will form around the organics from remains. This is what I believe it is on the bottom of the fabric.

Kyle Kingman: Notice the end of the skirt is an identical match to the 90 degree angle in the sand. I believe her left arm was outstretched with her legs slightly bent. I did not edit the legs. I believe the tarp was placed over her and tucked around her, or perhaps tied down. I believe there are several rocks laying on the sand which were placed on the tarp, or inside the tarp over her body which explains their unusual location. Either way, the proportions appear promising.

Kyle Kingman: The fabric(s?) are not visible on either the Dec 29th or 30th dives. There is about an inch of sand over the fabrics. The fabrics are completely covered. The diver sampled the sand and found the fabric underneath the sand. He then bagged the blue fabric. If the other bag contains fabric, it was also in the sand. There was also something possibly recovered from far inside the trap. In the video the diver is inside the trap with just below his knees showing. I don't know what was sampled far inside the trap if anything.

Kyle Kingman: The most likely to remain at or near it's original location was the skull, which is why I was so convinced the object pictured was a skull.

Kyle Kingman: I'm sorry if this is disturbing. I took the picture of Natalee standing on the beach and cropped, rotated, and scaled the image to correlate with the trap body form. Notice the end of the skirt is an identical match to the 90 degree angle in the sand.

Kyle Kingman: In my opinion, the blue fabric is quite possibly Natalee's skirt. The divers found the denim where I suggested a week earlier (Dec 29th) to Tim Miller that there was likely Natalee's denim skirt under the sand. Also in my opinion, the deni-like fabric is a match in terms of color, quantity, and structure to Natalee's skirt. It's not a lot of denim folded in the bag, but then again her skirt was rather small.

Kyle Kingman:  The sediment in this case is fine-grained sand which is preferencially deposited to make a body form. For sand to preferentially deposit, there needs to be a lower energy state where the sand collects and stays. This can be achieved either with a shallow depression creating accomodation space and lower potential energy (not the case) or by creating small eddy currents due to surface friction. The sediment around the door area is being eroded or removed by currents. Where the body was, it is being deposited. Basically, the fabrics created enough resistence for sediment to preferentially collect on it. Further, bacterial staining due to decaying organics acts as a mild cementing agent. Combined, you will have sediment erosion around the body form and deposition on the body form which collects through time. In this case, possibly 2 1/2 years.


++++++


QUALIFICATIONS

Kyle Kingman
Geophysicist and Marine Geologist
Greater New York City Area

Current Manager at Kingman Geophysical Solutions
Past Manager at Kingman Geophysical Solutions
Education Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey-New Brunswick

Kyle Kingman’s Summary
Kyle Kingman’s Specialties:

Project Management, Sonar Acquisition, hydrographic survey, data processing, remote sensing data analysis

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/b/65/464


The Search for Natalee Holloway
Monday, November 26, 2007

I. Mobilization

Key Personnel:

<snipped>

Kyle Kingman - Field Project Manager, Geophysical Engineer and Marine Geologist - Responsible for side scan sonar acquisition, digital processing, analysis, and target identification. Kyle will assist in side scan sonar operation and guide the ROV (remotely operated vehicle) team to each sonar target.

Posted by Kyle Kingman

http://jlbworld.com/files/chapter23/sitedevotedtoseasearch.htm
http://nholloway.blogspot.com/2007/11/mobilization.html

[Anna]

I mean the one speaking into the microphone, not the one marked in the box.

Maybe Bastibro knows who it is since he is fond of that gathering and uses it as his avatar.

[Tamikosmom]

texasmom ... I missed ya yesterday.

 

I bumped Natalee forward for you but ... I see that you popped in and bumped her forward again.

I again left "our" little laughing girl in the previous thread.  I am sooo neglectful

Janet