Lively Case Discussion #673 8/3 - 8/5/2007

[KarmaRoundUp]

I think because at least Joran,has done this 20 times before.I don't think she did go willingly,I think she was naive and believed what Joran was potraying himself to be.....a Dutch student sporter staying at the same hotel as Natalee.That's quite a disguise for a monster.

Hi Karma Smish   

Hi SF!

[SunFreak2]

Here's a link to many of the student quotes over at Scux.

http://scrux.com/natalee/studentquotes.htm

[Buckeye]

Arm bone

There is a theory related to body proportions (sorta like the foot and forearm thing).  Phi is a relationship equal to 1.618.  Various body proportions are based on this number.  Studies using this info have found the forearm related to the forearm plus the hand to be in a proportion of 1.715.  The picture, in the paper, if adding a little for the finger out of view, is proportioned to 1.7.  I have no idea about monkey or donkey bone proportions.  By relationship, the arm bone could be human.  Wasn't there a plane wreck in Venz. at that time??

http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2006/bodyproportions.shtml

[Auntiem]

  I know Julia found Jug and Beth in town shopping ( seems Jug needed some things) and the three raced to the place where the body was supposed to be, however, I do not rememberJulia being the person who made a mistake.  I remember there were several others involved, it came across television, and the police in Aruba and higher ups were also involved.  This was not a little ploy of Julia's. Something WAS found that day!  I believe it was on the 13th of June, something like that.....oh, they found something, I believe they found Natalee, but perhaps that is when they also found their Tourism Pros.(possibly the one who is now in West Palm???) and were advised what would hurt their tourism!!!

[klaasend]

Arm bone

There is a theory related to body proportions (sorta like the foot and forearm thing).  Phi is a relationship equal to 1.618.  Various body proportions are based on this number.  Studies using this info have found the forearm related to the forearm plus the hand to be in a proportion of 1.715.  The picture, in the paper, if adding a little for the finger out of view, is proportioned to 1.7.  I have no idea about monkey or donkey bone proportions.  By relationship, the arm bone could be human.  Wasn't there a plane wreck in Venz. at that time??

http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2006/bodyproportions.shtml

Yes Buckeye - the plane crash in Venezuela was right after the arm bone was found.  This tied up the forensic lab in Venezuela identifying the dead in the plane crash.

[Buckeye]

Guido and the car (and the lie in Joran's book that he never talked to Guido again).

Greta May 23, 2006

.....

Spong

June last year he was first a witness, he gave 5 witness statements 3 in aruba 2 in Holland. Months later 5 witness came with story that they say scratches were on his face of 6 cm long, very deep which were looking like they caused by human nails. Very strange that those statements were delivered 9 months after the fact. He was questioned on Aruba 3 days after Natalee disappeared and nobody from ALE has seen those scratches so it's a fake story

It's a complete fake story and the idea from the prosecution is he might have had makeup to coverup those scratches.

There was another argument that he was driving a white car, and it was seen by the place where she disappeared. Half of arubans in this sunny island is driving a white car, it's normal in the tropics. It is a weak argument.

Greta:

Joe Tacopina, I understand your client spoke to Guido today by phone. What did Guido say to Joran. Joe I know that you have attorney / client privilege but tell us what you can


Joe

He actually gave me persmision to talk about it, he was upset for Guido he apoke to Guido's sister and said he was sorry he got dragged in and Guido was on the phone, he said Joran one thing the cops said is they have no case against you...They would like Guido to give statement against Joran. He wasn't willing to make up a lie, he sat there for no good reason, they made prosecutorial reason to realease him and kept him overnight so he missed another exam.

[SunFreak2]

Hear's a link to many, many articles about Natalee's story.

http://nataleeholloway.tripod.com/

[klaasend]

Arm bone

There is a theory related to body proportions (sorta like the foot and forearm thing).  Phi is a relationship equal to 1.618.  Various body proportions are based on this number.  Studies using this info have found the forearm related to the forearm plus the hand to be in a proportion of 1.715.  The picture, in the paper, if adding a little for the finger out of view, is proportioned to 1.7.  I have no idea about monkey or donkey bone proportions.  By relationship, the arm bone could be human.  Wasn't there a plane wreck in Venz. at that time??

http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2006/bodyproportions.shtml

Yes Buckeye - the plane crash in Venezuela was right after the arm bone was found.  This tied up the forensic lab in Venezuela identifying the dead in the plane crash.

The arm bone found was reported in the paper August 11, 2005.  The plane crash was August 16, 2005:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4156224.stm

[bleachedblack]

   They found Natalee, don't you all remember?  June of 2005.  There was an announcement,and confirmation...we saw Beth's crumpling body as she got the most tragic news of her life!!!!   But then, came the retraction!  What happened???? The body was not "presentable".....too much DNA.  It was "disappeared!!!!

I believe a lot of things but not this rumor. The wrong department/people told this. Remarks like this are the responsibility of the DA's office or the police, not by politicians or people from a ministry.

Hey Rammstein welcome !

[Auntiem]

 

     The plane crashed AFTER the arm bone was found???

[Rammstein]

I'm sorry was this a rumor?????   It came across the newswires as an announcement from the Aruban Government, I thought.  Can anybody here please clarify who made this announcement that Natalee had been found and where her body was?  Where they rushed Beth and Jug to? I didn't know this was only a rumor?  How could that happen?

it most likely was just like in the miners incident in West Virginia where it was first reported that there were 12 survivors of the mine-disaster where as only 1 was found alive.

Information regarding finding of bodies is the sole responsibility of the police, often in corroboration with the DA. They will never confirm it is a certain person until formal identification has taken place, when found it will be said that a body has been found.

I would guess that Joran was being taken by the police to the last places he was with Natalee (according to his not too believable words) or where he left her. Some ministry official must have picked up on those reports and that could have lead to him thinking she had been found (taken her to the place he left her). So he spoke out of place and without having confirmation that there actually was a body and whether a positive ID had been made.

The odds on favorite for Natalee's resting place is the water around Aruba, at least that is what I believe and thus she could never have been found on land. Also if the police had believed to have found her they would have called in members of the forensic team on the island to dig up the body and preserve the evidence. The media was all over Joran when he came out of the beach area if I remember correctly, the media (if the discovery had been true) would have been all over that area in a heartbeat and would have filmed something to that effect.

Although I cannot 100% say that it is a fact, I don't believe it is anything more than a rumor.

[Buckeye]

Arm bone

There is a theory related to body proportions (sorta like the foot and forearm thing).  Phi is a relationship equal to 1.618.  Various body proportions are based on this number.  Studies using this info have found the forearm related to the forearm plus the hand to be in a proportion of 1.715.  The picture, in the paper, if adding a little for the finger out of view, is proportioned to 1.7.  I have no idea about monkey or donkey bone proportions.  By relationship, the arm bone could be human.  Wasn't there a plane wreck in Venz. at that time??

http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2006/bodyproportions.shtml

Yes Buckeye - the plane crash in Venezuela was right after the arm bone was found.  This tied up the forensic lab in Venezuela identifying the dead in the plane crash.

The arm bone found was reported in the paper August 11, 2005.  The plane crash was August 16, 2005:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4156224.stm

    I thought it was after...hmmmmm..

[klaasend]

Human skeleton:



Arm bone found:

[klaasend]

     The plane crashed AFTER the arm bone was found???

Yes, the plane crashed about 5-6 days after the arm bone was found.

[SunFreak2]

On 6-11 Aruban police commissioner van der Straaten was asked by a Dutch journalist if he had any hopes for a positive outcome? Van der Straaten replied, “You always have to be hopeful, but I don’t believe anymore that we will find Natalee alive.” When asked why not, van der Straaten replied, “Because I know the details of the investigation and you don't!”

I believe this is when they realized she was dead and started calling it a homicide instead of a missing person.

[Nut44x4]

Thanks Klaas.....I knew who Santos was, but the other guy I didn't know (in the other pix).

**I have a question re: a rumour from way back regarding something Marcia Twitty either said or didn't say (which would be my guess) or something that was taken out of context. When or if or whatever....did Marcia Twitty say anything about 'if it all gets out, we are all going down, INCLUDING Natalee'....and to whom did she supposedly say this to. The only place I have seen this is at RU and I find no where else that this is mentioned.  Was this something that was made up by Glenda/jr or what?? Or was it something that Marcia said and was twisted by RU peeps to make it fit their agenda?

[klaasend]

Nut - I have never seen that anywhere except RU and I believe it's total BS.

[bleachedblack]

Klaas that drawing of the skeleton shows clearly that there is no bone connecting wrist and hand, yet the skeleton found shows the 2 still connected. I have some problem with this.

[KarmaRoundUp]

I remember following a link (saved it) to a young teenager's blog.  This girl was from MB.  She had posted how a girl (NH) had gone missing and the family was en route to ARuba to find her.  This was posted that Monday night around 11pm.  I went back several times to her blog and read how the family thought she was being held hostage in a crack house, etc.  This was written in real time with people asking her questions and her responses. Then months later the blog was gone from the link, and of course I had never copied anything and then erased the link after a few more months. Had anyone else seen this site?

Hey SF....I was just reading exactly what you wrote above...the other day.I think it was an aruba travel blog....I'll see if I can find it.
Here is one site but it looks different...I'll keep looking.http://www.aruba.com/forum/f7/missing-2016/

[Buckeye]

Ramm
From my memory, the initial reports were late.  There was a Birmingham reporter on the island talking about heading to the lighthouse in the dark...others were going towards Huts.

What would the scene have been like if Natalee was found and found to have brutalized??  Is there a possibility that tourism is so important and there was so much media to announce the findings, that the powers that be, decided it would be better that she not be found??  Is it possible??