Scared Monkeys Discussion Forum

Let's hope 2007 brings Justice for Natalee

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e82/klaasend2/candleman2justice2007.jpg)

Here!!!!  Am I first?  Where's robots? :lol:

He's been slacking lately :lol:  Must need a WD-40 treatment  :lol:

Anna- I saw your post in the last thread... and I just don't know what their intentions are.

Hard to imagine that they could ever prosecute this case on Aruba.

And how could they transport everyone to Holland? ... I'm not sure what to think.

Someone would prolly burn down the Court house on Aruba. They sure have a fire bug running around lately.

did the KLPD bring in trained professionals, a.k.a. - THE CLEANUP CREW, to vacuum up any remaining evidence....

makes ya think, doesn't it ?

I just got the door slammed on my foot... :lol:

anyway I was adding speculation ...

what if dompig is helping to destroy evidence because he is also one to have comprimising dealings with tourist women?  His son was a bartender ... what better way to scope and "get" the women you want?

Back to the newspaper article talking about the "elders" ... maybe this entire cover up is to protect all the older men involved....

just a speculation.....

If you are interested, Grande and I did a post today on a person that seems to have no regard for his wife disappearance today.

Grande had a very extensive conversation with Robert Arnette at Court TV message board. Robert Arnette is the last person seen with Naomi Arnette.

http://tinyurl.com/3bd44n

There will be more on my site from Grande in the next day or so as a family member of missing Naomi Arnette has reached out to Grande on this case.

This person has requested to speak directly to Grande.

Mrs. Red - check your email when you get a chance ok?  TIA

Mrs. Red--I liked what you said in the last thread about Dirty Hand being a woman. I had never considered it either, until I randomly thought it could be Karin Janssen today.

Dirty Hand seems to me to be characterized as being in the middle, knowing how the Babylonians (good old boys) work, without really being one of them. It's an interesting take on it, if nothing else. I'm reading about Dirty Hand right now with the consideration that it may be a woman.

But now that KJ is not in charge, I wonder what will be the excuse for not prosecuting.

Paulus is a suspect.  J2K + SGC = 5th suspect.  Lorenzo is a witness, not a suspect.  What is Paulus alibi for that night?  That he was home sleeping soundly?  He lost the case against the governement for saying he was out and about at 4 a.m.

Did the prosecutor get steamed seeing the video of Paulus hitting on Natalee in the casino and bring those charges of premeditated murder against him? What is his alibi?  What is his timeline?  Why were the younger Sloots never questioned?  Would Val maybe say Paulus was not home that night?
Too much pure speculation but I would think breaking the alibi of Paulus if that alibi just happened to be the prosecutor would certainly bring down far more houses of cards than the alibi of a drug dealer.  Would just about levle the judiciary in Aruba.  Would shock the world, even.  

Gotta work but am thinking about all this. . . . . mind boggling possibilities should this rumor be true.


.

by the way - that link is to Court TV .. where the conversation took place... very interesting stuff. It's all there.

Thank you Blue... to me, it's worth thinking about.

Klaasend.. answered, but not very well...

and I am out for a while, take care be good...

keep the faith...

snoopy wrote: Katysmom I'm south of St. Louis. Where are you from abouts?

katysmom wrote:  I'm down by Branson

snoopy wrote: That's right. I remember now. Near Lake Taneycomo right?


Snoopy:  Wow, you've got a great memory.  I'm right on Lake Taneycomo; about 9 miles from Branson

I have moments!!  :lol:  :lol:

Clyde Burke

Klaas, who is Clyde Burke?  What does he do, what is his connection to
this investigation?

TIA.

Clyde Burke is ALE and was involved in taking many of the witness/suspect statements.

Clyde Burke = ALE?

klaas writes:  Clyde Burke is ALE and was involved in taking many of the witness/suspect statements.

How are you klaas?  Thanks for your quick reply.

What makes you think Clude Burke is Simian?

I know you have researched much, would be interested to hear your perspective on this.

TIA

.

I've highlighted the ALE members who witnessed the statements:

Sander Gottenbos   brother of Koen Gottenbos      6/17/2005   11:15   Clyde Burke / Shaniro Kelly
Margaritha Werlemen Dijkhoff   v/d Sloot live in maid      6/20/2005   20:35   Clyde Burke / Shaniro Kelly
Amanda Metz   v/d Sloot girlfriend      6/20/2005   15:50   Clyde Burke / Shaniro Kelly
Gilayla Flanegin   Friend of v/d Sloot      6/20/2005   19:00   Clyde Burke / Shaniro Kelly

Antonius Mickey John   interrogation of a suspect - request 41   Holiday Inn   6/5/2006   10:30   Clyde Burke       
Abraham Jones   interrogation of a suspect - request 41   Holiday Inn   6/6/2005   15:45   Clyde Burke       
Francisco Remigio Thiel   fishermen      6/5/2005   13:55   Clyde Burke / Johny Erasmus       
Niharika Triveedi   Friend of V/D sloot      7/2/2005   10:10   Marlon Gumbs / Clyde Burke       
George Twitty         7/5/2005   17:00   Marlon Gumbs / Clyde Burke       

Paul van der Sloot         6/18/2005   18:30   Roland Tromp / Clyde Burke       

Sander Gottenbos   brother of Koen Gottenbos      6/16/2005   17:10   Shaniro Kelly / Clyde Burke       
Steve Croes         6/21/2005   13:00   Shaniro Kelly / Clyde Burke

I did some research into Clyde Burke.  Found he is interrested in music and also participated in a band.  There are other reasons why I believe Clyde to be Simian that I can't post.  

It's clear that Simian was getting inside ALE information and giving it to us either right before or when it was happening.

I believe Grande is correct and found that Burke seemingly posted a message only thirty minutes after a statement was taken and only someone with inside knowledge could have known that info that fast.

ROB - did you see this post from the archives?


papito

Joined: 26 Jun 2005

 Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 12:01 pm    Post subject:      

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Mr. Paul van der Sloot is da chief justice on da island (he is da boss of the judges) it's because of that, that the Chief Justice of Curacao has to come to the island to follow and make the choices in the case.
I agree that there is something fishy about the whole thing, but it's unfair how the world now look at Aruba.
We are very caring and loving people. In the States much worse things happen and after sometimes 10 /20 years they crack the case. Give the arubians a little bit of slack. Don't forget that we are surrounded by sea if they dumped (IF THEY DID) her body in the sea. The sharkes would have already eaten the body. And if the suspects shut up and don't talk than the case will close and they will go out free. And don't forget either that paul is a chief justice he knows the law like you guys know the songs they play on MTV. It's not easy to crack a chief justice.

A Police officer of The sunny happy Island of Aruba

Nice post by Greta on the Holloway case.Nothing new.

No nothing new but I'm still glad she posting something on it.

Yes Klaas - looks like Jairo's writing to me. It's not Edwin Comemencia imo.

What is yours??

Whoever posted that was posting from Aruba.  Jairo was in Florida at the time.

he's the only one I know that still say Arubians. So you think Edwin would be online?

I don't know if it was Edwin or someone pretending to be him.  All I know is what they posted and the fact that they were posting from Aruba.

I know from Yahoo Chat that Jairo was definately in Florida at the time, he said so.

I was also in Yahoo Chat when Fox showed "panty boy" on TV and Jairo said in Yahoo Chat "oh shit, that's my cousin (or nephew)"

Good afternoon Monkeys.   :)

Isn't it interesting some of the things that have come up to the surface here again since we can read some of the old stuff.  Like the lysol bottle, the visibility team shirt and so on.  I think it helps us remember some of the dates/times of events too.

I LOVE having those archives back and really look forward to getting the rest!  I want to read all of Bondia's posts again. :lol:

Oh yes-I definitely want to read all of Bondia's posts again too.  Might be a little more interesting this time around, I think.

Interresting and irritating, lol  :lol:

Hi Muffy, shows me how involved the visibility team is in the coverup.  I bet they have a lot of videos also.

I think when we can read over the words and phrases, coupled with the timing on some of the posts, more of the intention to cover up and feed disinformation will become even more apparent.  It could give much more insight to where some of it was coming from and why.

Clyde Burke, do you have a conscience?  You know the evidence that was gathered.  You know what the suspects and witnesses said.  You know what happened to the evidence!  You know what happened to Natalee.  Did you talk to the KLPD?

Hi, all. Natalee has been on my mind a lot lately. My heart is heavy for her and the family.

From the SM forum archives:


jairodirksen

Joined: 28 Apr 2006

 Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 3:41 pm    Post subject:      

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Arubagirl, I have one question. Can you explain to me where Joran lives precisly?

arubagirl
Monkey Junkey


Joined: 13 Jun 2005

 Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 3:46 pm    Post subject:      

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Jairo, I don't know exactly where Joran's house is, but if you come from the the 'rotonde' Tanki Flip, you go in the direction of Giselle Department store, take a right the next street after the Sportcomplex that they're building, keep on driving for about a few minutes, and there you'll find Montanja. My friends and i didn't exactly look for his house number, it was too dark.
 
jairodirksen


Joined: 28 Apr 2006

 Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 3:48 pm    Post subject:      

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Thx arubagirl, well than there's no way he could have walked home from the Marriott to his house, just too far.

arubagirl
Monkey Junkey


Joined: 13 Jun 2005

 Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 3:50 pm    Post subject:      

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I also think it's unlikely, jairo.
 
arubagirl
Monkey Junkey


Joined: 13 Jun 2005

 Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 4:28 pm    Post subject:      

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About the distance, jairo, I drove yesterday night from the beginning of Fisherman's Huts to Montanja, and according to my kilometer reader it was 5 km, so 3 miles.

About searching the houses of v/d S, and brothers, they searched it when they were being interrogated. They may have gone back to seize the computer, but they searched the house and the lead prosecutor Caren Janssen got annoyed when asked that question twice, that's why I remember.

The parents (I'm thinking mom and stepfather) changed the headings to from missing to kidnapping themselves. van der Straaten's reaction was that the stressed that there was no evidence of kidnapping.


jairodirksen



Joined: 28 Apr 2006

 Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 4:32 pm    Post subject:      

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Arubagirl, which roads did you take?

arubagirl
Monkey Junkey


Joined: 13 Jun 2005

 Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 4:37 pm    Post subject:      

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Jairo: I started at the very beginning of Fisherman's huts. Went right on Sasaki, took the left lane of the traffic lights at McDonald's level to go left. Went left, went straight until I ended up at the traffic lights of Noord (was at the level of Caribbean Palm Village). Went right at those traffic lights, drove straight, passed Fermin's bar, took the left at the next intersection. So that particular road is in between Fermin's bar and the sportcomplex that they're building. Went down that road, in about 3 minutes you will find a "t-kruising", went right, drove for about 2 minutes, and I saw a sign that says Montanja appartments and stopped counting there. I don't know at which number I was exactly, but I was in Montanja

jairodirksen



Joined: 28 Apr 2006

 Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 4:40 pm    Post subject:      

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Thx, arubagirl, eventhough I don't understand why you need to bold my name. I just think it's too far for him to walk from the Mariott all the way to his house.

arubagirl
Monkey Junkey


Joined: 13 Jun 2005

 Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 4:48 pm    Post subject:      

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Daniel, by my count he has about three stories

1) Dopped off at Holiday Inn
2) Dropped off at his house
3) Dropped off at Marriott / Fisherman's huts.

arubagirl
Monkey Junkey


Joined: 13 Jun 2005

 Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 5:02 pm    Post subject:      

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Oh, about the him being dropped off at his house, that's what his lawyer said that his story was the first time they had to face the judge of instructions (rechter-comissaris)
 
jairodirksen



Joined: 28 Apr 2006

 Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 5:05 pm    Post subject:      

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Arubagirl, the story about Joran being dropped off at his home was when he told on of the 2 guards held in the police station at Noord. It was one of the guards who told the public this story.

arubagirl
Monkey Junkey


Joined: 13 Jun 2005

 Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 5:06 pm    Post subject:      

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jairo, well, the lawyer said that "Joran told me that he was dropped off at home by the two brothers".
 
 
arubagirl
Monkey Junkey


Joined: 13 Jun 2005

 Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 5:07 pm    Post subject:      

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His lawyer Carlo said this on the courthouse steps, Luna. I didn't even know that the guard(s) also said this.

 jairodirksen



Joined: 28 Apr 2006

 Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 5:09 pm    Post subject:      

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Arubagirl, his attorney Carlo told the press the same day that his client did not change his story, again we don't have the investigation transcripts, as we know that has been confirmed by the prosecuter's office he had one story when he was a witness and another story when he became a suspect.

More from the SM forum archives:

Daniel



Joined: 23 Jun 2005

 Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 5:44 pm    Post subject:      

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The Dutch newsitem that Iquitos posted on page 27 contains some very interesting tidbits:

"According to the police, Joran van der Sloot has changed statements some four or five times now. Police spokesperson Papito Comenencia stated enigmatically: "We're still missing three pieces of the puzzle. If we find one, we'll have the other two as well".
The police is still conducting searches. They've been working together since yesterday with volunteers of EquuSearch from Texas, who have brought sensitive equipment to Aruba. Comenencia: “they're capable people who know what they're doing". The 24 member team includes a number of divers. Previously, the FBI has employed divers too, in vain.
Natalee Holloway's mother isn't surprised by the team's coming to Aruba to help find her daughter: "We've received many offers of assistance, including from diver teams, bounty hunters, all kinds of people who help us search. The more, the better, and the sooner we will find out what happened. It's really about time that we do".

Can someone please tell me what Greta posted and why it's "nice."

It's a long post on her blog so better you read it.  I wouldn't call it nice except that it keeps Natalee in the news still.  She also had a short video of Junior (Raul) the landfill witness where they took him to the landfill and he was going to show them where he saw things, but it turned out to be a waste of time.  Here's the link:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,290698,00.html

...and another:

BRIDGEPORT, Conn. —  A man charged with improperly disposing of a corpse claims he chopped up his friend's body, stuffed the parts in a metal drum and rolled it into a river in a panic after the friend died of a drug overdose, police said.

The drum, with the body parts inside, was found floating in the Pequonnock River in Bridgeport last week.

Felix Rivera, 23, was charged Tuesday with improper disposal of a dead body after he told police his story of what happened to Charles Gerber, police Lt. James Viadero said.


Police said Rivera told them he and Gerber had been celebrating their release from jail following arrests on assault and weapons-related charges. Gerber, 34, had taken pills, drunk alcohol and smoked the hallucinogen PCP on July 17 before Rivera discovered he had stopped breathing, according to police.

Rivera told police he became "paranoid" and decided to hide the body in a metal drum. When the 5-foot-9, 180-pound body didn't fit, he used an ax to cut off the head, hands and feet, police said.

Well one thing that does is put Natalee's name back in the news, and it also shows how people in aruba are so busy hustling people, don't care, and reminds people not to go there.

Didn't sound very fun... streets with no names, howling, abused puppies, just didn't sound like my idea of a vacation!

Klaas, "they" were irritating the first time!!  Ah yes,  I remember it well. :wink:

http://www.arubatahot.com/124.aspx?kl=4

some very recent pix of people and places/Aruba categorized

Hello everyone!!  ;)  What's the word?

Hey Third!

still hanging in hoping for justice
what's new with you?

Nut44x4 are the recent photos of Joran in Aruba(july 18th) included in any of the links you post, would you know? I will check them out regardless, so TIA.

Oh my, as I live and breathe.  Aren't you a sight for sore eyes...;)

I'm good.  Thanks!!  It's GREAT to see you!  It's been quite a while...

That would be nice to know Bleached, it's not like he is touring the US promoting his book....

Thanks! it's interesting reading the old stuff... and it's great to see some "old faces"...

Just being curious but do we know how many books have actually sold?

Why I gotta be old???  ;)

honey hush, ain't no one old in this cage!!

Oh God!  You mean someone would have actually bought that book?  Has anyone in here actually read it?

I know this isn't the right forum, but I'll keep it brief.  It was funny...I was thinking about you the other day (and our mystery movie quotes).  Good times (for the cause, of course) back in the day!! :)

OK, back to Joran's crappy book...

I think it's been read in parts... BFN has posted parts of it ... I just wondered if more than say 20 sold...

notice it's not for sale in the US.... and isn't going to be...

I have not looked at all of them yet...sorry.

O/T  --- Mrs. Red, thanks for putting that story about the perv who was set free because the court couldn't get an interpreter on time on the Front Page.  These kinds of stories need as much exposure as possible!

well Third, we can always restart the game... LOL!

A's... actually thank you... SM is about getting the stories, whenever possible out there that you guys bring to us.

oh and Thank RED... he is the one that put it out there on the front page...

If you'll start it back up, I'm down to play...;)

Please start it in the Monkey Lounge and not here, OK  :wink:

K... how about after we have the new forum???  That will give me some time to really get some hard quotes to figure out...

O/T - did y'all see that the two suspects in the CT dr's case were released prior convicts for good behavior... ?? WTH??

Oh I was... I don't want to get banned... :lol:

Me neither!  I've been enough of a trouble starter during my time in here...;)

(http://www.pokernews.com/i/xsmiles/labas.gif)
Just peeking in before a Nap (gave blood it always makes me sleepy  :oops: )

I see some OLD / familiar faces...that I have not seen in a bit  :lol:

Klaasend / San anyone with an edit button..
Could you put the IMG tags around my waving smiley link  :oops:

NUT44x4
Did you find out how to do a screen capture / print ?

I would, but don't know how to reach him.  Thought you might  :oops:

Off to a swim meet, bye!

I will be sure to do that... you can email him .. link on front page. :wink:

A's I am sorry... that came out wrong..

I meant to say, I will be sure and tell him.  If you would like to tell him you can email him... red@scaredmonkeys.com.

Here's a preview. :arrow:

On 6/29/05 flutiegirl posts:

Did anyone else find it strange that julia renfro was almost praising steve croes? like sickly gushing over him?

 :lol:

at that point did we know that julia was one of the bondias?

I know a lot of people caught on quick... but a lot of us didn't know she was julia... not at first anyway.

I did because she knew a friend of mine from a surf store downtown and told me that she knew him too..

hard to miss his place since it's right next to Mambo and her and her clique get bombed in there.

Hey mrs. red, i didn't know until the end...say around Nov. 05. I don't remember people openly posting about it either. I do remember being nice to her in a vain attempt to get her to post on-topic. I hope Dugga can edit some of that out!   :?

Gotta love Granny Toad as she tells it like it is. :wink:

Bondia wasn't posting at SM yet at that point.  I would say Red knew who Bondia was probably from the beginning, or soon after they started posting.

Klaas....will all of the archives be available when the new forum opens?

....and thank you.... :D

I don't know for sure what Dugga will have been able to restore.  I think it's going to be an ongoing process.

By the way, you seem to have lost "ME", LOLOL  :lol:

This is a repost. Give me your thoughts on this possible scenario........

It boggles my mind to think through play-by-play scenarios of how the fateful night unfolded. ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE.

Once NH gave Joran confirmation that she may leave with him after bar, this would have been an appropriate time for Joran to set up a spiked drink for her to drink. (otherwise, why have her drink spiked if there wasn't a guarantee that NH would even leave with him after the bar closed and waste the drug and/or money for the drugged drink)

They (J2K) probably did as expected and drove around allowing time for the drug to take effect on her already intoxicated body. Small talk, adolescent petting (J and NH) in back seat of car. Deepak pisses on side of road. NH may have realized at this point that trouble had befallen her but did not have energy, logical thinking, or means to get out of situation.

The three realized that their own homes were not the place to go. Joran would not take Nat to his own home with sleeping family, and Kalpoes surely would not go back to Nadira and their home. Somewhere abandoned would serve the purpose here. Lighthouse area would work. I wonder about lighting to see what was going on. Why would they get it on inside car with friends present, although not out of the question. ( I am open to ideas as to the scene of the alleged rape - where were condoms found ?? ) While tourists may go to lighthouse area at this time of night, a native would know to go slightly beyond the touristy area where they would be totally undetectable. Nat, knowing her fate, probably had her blood boiling way beyond control, especially, if drugs in system. She kicked and fought her best - assaulted by J2K while raped and eventually went into cardiac arrest, dying at the hands of J2K. (Unknown(s) – (a) who was in alleged white trailing car - Guido ??, (b) is this when a call was attempted?)

Heading back to high-rise area as needed to be seen for alibi purposes, stopped along the way, J2K + 1 guest player, sat and talked to think of plan. This could be where spotted by guy walking to work. In the car sat J2K + guest – (Nat either left at site of rape or in trunk) Open to ideas as to (a)1 guest or multiple guests(plural), (b) 2nd car vs only K2 car, (c) was freddy- the cameraman here or not. I TEND TO THINK TOO MANY PEOPLE RUIN A SECRET SIDING WITH FEWER PEOPLE PRESENT - NO GUESTS OR ONLY 1 GUEST

At this point, it became time to involve Daddy - Paulus. Paulus or his children got on websites - porn, soccer, etc.., for a possible alibi.. He, at this time, would have advised the boys to text each other as if home, also telling the K bros to wash their car thoroughly, not speak, and meet back in AM at Sloot house for further game plan. Paulus comes to pick up Joran and dead NH at this point @ McD??? 4AM.

Paulus and Joran likely drove off into the night carrying out disposal plan. (no idea where they went) to LVR? - Sloot house? No clue here.

The meeting at the Sloot house early afternoon time. Paulus had a chance to work the phone early AM for favors and get others involvement. Joran = I am not sold that he attended school (if he did, he left early or was enabled to go home) SK definitely did not attend school, DK afternoon work (or no work.)

The rest is history as other high powered, intelligently evil thinkers helped collaborate a corrupted and colluded plan from there and executed as needed.

The Twittys did make them sweat it, tough, as their arrival was fast and furious.

Just thinking out loud... any additions or disagreements to this timeline of events are welcome.  Another scenario that crosses my mind is a small pool party at the Sloot house. This would have made things very covenient for all.

I feel, somewhat, that there were not many people involved in the actual crime.  Their help was required later on and each has limited information.  TOO MANY PEOPLE RUIN A SECRET.

I also feel NH body may have been destroyed on land as it would give the perpetrators 100% control and leave no possibility in the future for discovery.

Is it fact or rumor that clothes of NH were found at LVR?

If fact, any proof to back it up?

If rumor, any source of the rumor?

Clothes of NH at LVR house would certainly allow for further investigation into LVR's involvement.

I am still curious as to status of LVR and his detention status - seems quiet on the front, unlike J2K's detentions, extensions, etc..

Anyone seen the sporter lately ? Or K2 – wonder what they are up to these days………

BUCKSHOT - all very possible

My answers in red.  No sightings of JK2 at all that I'm aware of.

I am sure he did too... and unfortunately at first, he thought she did want to help. Hindsight is 20/20 - and I don't think he knew until toward the end that she had multiple personalities.

Isgigs.. I didn't know that there were more than one... I only knew because of Red... and several people emailed me at the time that they strongly suspected, and thanks to them we saw the differences in posting and found that there were more than one.

Agreed...I am sure you are right on in a lot of areas, but I can't see J at McD's being picked up by Paulus with a dead body in tow.

First, I do not believe Natalee ever agreed to leave C&C's with Joran.  One classmate saw her leaving C&C's walking next to Joran, but not touching him or acting like she was with him.  Natalee, at that point, said she was going back to the HI with the group of MB students walking in front of her.  Another classmate reported that he was seated at an upstairs bar across the street from C&C's about 1:15 am and saw Natalee being escorted out of C&C's by Deepak, with him holding her by the elbow.  It makes sense that Natalee probably went back to C&C's looking for friends.  When Joran couldn't get her to the car, Deepak was sent back to pose as a taxi driver and bring her to the car.  She may have been highly disoriented by this time.  Regardless, no evidence exists that Natalee intended to leave with Joran.  In fact, she stated that she was going back to the HI with the MB students.


I agree.



I disagree.  I do believe they took her to Joran's apartment at the VSD home.  First, I do not believe Anita and the other two sons were home.  Second, this is the logical place to take her.  It is private and familiar to them.  I do believe this apartment was used as a meeting place frequently.  There is talk that all Joran's friends parked on the other side of the wall and just jumped the wall to enter his apartment.  Most likely others were at the apartment--Guido, Freddy, maybe others.  I do think Natalee was gang raped and violently assaulted.  She was beaten, probably by Joran.  Guido was charged with battery.  I do believe they also videotaped the rape and assault.  I believe Natalee died from their violent attack.



After Natalee died, Paulus was called in to help cover up the crime.  I think it's likely that he called Lorenzo, searching for help for an overdose or how to hide the body.  The details are hard to decipher.  I think we agree that Joran, the 2K's, Guido, Freddy, possibly Koen were involved, maybe GVC in the rape and death of Natalee.  Paulus was called in afterward to coverup and then others like Lorenzo also helped.

Buckshot... I also want to add to your theory.  Remember that jk2 went to the bar only 30 minutes before closing...so they had to work quickly.  I think that there wasn't time for Natalee to agree to go with him... I think they separated her from the group... and that they convinced her to go back to the hotel where Joran was supposedly staying...


Rob... did your friend know who the other bondia's were?  I would love to know that for a fact...

Exactly

I am so saddened to hear from GEL that both her brother and sister were in a terrible car accident. There is a post in the prayer thread .

Here is a link to light a candle.........group is SM.

http://www.gratefulness.org/candles/candles.cfm?l=eng&gi=sm

I will never forget her chastizing Flying Mermaid for saying that a person who was a chef on the island was trying to move to Florida.

She stated very emphatically that everyone knew everyone else's business and that there were no secrets on the island and that FM was endangering the chef's job....

it was at that point I started to really question her motives, she always picked a fight with someone including me at times...

also that always (bold part) stuck with me... and it was why I didn't feel sorry for anyone regarding a boycott... they all knew everything so they had to know who and why Natalee was harmed.  She singlehandedly sealed my position on the boycott.... that day.

Peeking back in
Semi  O/T

I tried search for BT*  to find any SockMonkey updates and came up with nothing :shock:   then Tried Oldf* and got hits..  :?
Just thought I would pass it along

 :oops:   (http://www.pokernews.com/i/xsmiles/labas.gif) Hi gang..
PS.. I remembered the IMG tags this time  :wink:

Oldfart - they are posted in the Monkey Lounge

If Paulus was not directly involved, and he and Nadira are to be believed( rolling eyes here)...the window of opportunity is 1:00ish till 5:00ish. 4 hours. This is a rough estimate. However, if Paulus were to not be telling the truth about when he awakened J and when J left for school etc, then the window of opportunity expands.

Just thinking out loud, not sure of my point :oops:

Good eveninng Monkeys!

Good discussions going on tonight.
AZLady: I agree with so much of what you said in your last post. But I still have a burning question . . . were those PIMPS worthy of such a huge cover-up? You mentioned video of the assault and I agree, but I beleive if this is the case, there is an entire network that is being protected. IMO the videos being made were not for the PIMPs enjoyment only but more of an enterprise.  Just thinking out loud. Any thoughts?

Shell, we have learned that Paulus did pick up Joran and Natalee at 4 AM at McDonalds.  That was revealed by the Aruban Justice System and the reason why they denied him compensation because they determined he did have contact with Natalee at 4 AM and held some responsibility for his own arrest due to his complicity.

well it's why I wonder about who else was involved in this type of activity... Dompig?  all of ALE... did they never believe the women or assume that they ended up crack houses because they had made sure of it?

I keep wondering what favors were called in to protect the son of the judge. I would like to know things that happened before Paulus ever got to Aruba, his history, the cases he had influence over. I personally think that would open a huge can of worms and explain why all this for a few punks.

Ok I never make much sense.. but I am really struggling tonight...  :roll:

did that last post make any sense to any one else?? :oops:

After being drugged in CnC's by Joran buying her a drink from that special bottle, Natalee had little clue within a few minutes as to what was really happening.  I tend to think as AZ does that she was planning to return with her friends until the "grab" happened.  She was targeted and they knew just what to do and how to go about making it happen.  She thought she was getting in a taxi and that Joran was going with her back to the hotel.  He had told others he was a tourist as well.  I don't think that is such a far fetched idea as the one I had last night about GVC.

Thank You BB-I wrote a small update in the lounge payer forum.All prayers will be appreciated.You are all so kind.

Wow, I must have missed that discussion.

I think the coverup became so large that it took on a life of its own.  Eventually, it wasn't just a coverup of Natalee's death and disposal, but of the crime and corruption that is woven throughout the island, their justice system, their finances, their government, even their lifestyles.  When Paulus put the coverup in motion, he pulled in Karen Janssen, members of the ALE, the judiciary, as well as friends and family.  

Then, the tourism industry became involved because of the media attention.  They didn't want the seamy, ugly side of Aruba exposed, as it was in the media.  The drug trade, the gambling, the money laundering all become highly visible and condemned features of the Happy Island.  Their mafia ties were bandied about and the Americans saw more than just the white sand of Palm Beach and the hotels and casinos.  They saw the drugs, the poverty, the inept and corrupt government, the ties with organized crime, the lack of respect for children and women, the whole morally depraved way of life on the Happy Island.  Ugly, ugly, ugly.  

This whole thing blew up, right out of their control and onto our TV screens.  It couldn't be denied, so Aruba lied and lied and lied.

IMO that was the ALE's typical response. They knew what was going, but my unfortunate gut feeling is that they never expected any missing girl to ever show up. Let alone their family to arrive within hours. You can read into that what you want, but I believe there was something BIG and very sinister going on. JMHO

he didn't even know any of this was going on. He was in the dark about all the online stuff.

klaasend
found them and the Language translations in the LCD  but found it od that search did not have any hits (... behind the curtain updates ?)
BB
Thank you posting the link to the candles

thx rob... I still think ANITA  was one of them

Aruba did not fare well under the hot lights of the media.  They sent Ruben Trappenburg and Arlene to tell us about the good intentions of the authorities.  We didn't buy it.  They dissembled and lied and tried it again.  The more they covered up, the more the coverup had to be maintained.  It grew and grew.  When Dompig said one thing, then someone else denied and corrected him.  When a confession was made, they announced it and then it was denied.  It went all the way to Oduber and Rudy Croes--no one knew what they other was doing and they all ran around like keystone cops.

Was this ever confirmed for a fact?  I thought Paulus was in trouble for just saying 4 a.m. then changing it to 11 p.m.  I know there is a rumor that someone from MB saw Paulus at McD at 3-4 a.m. but I have never seen any actual statement about that.  Did this really happen or did Paulus just say it?

.

Oldfart -  you of all people should know that you need more than "BT", more than 2 letters for a search.  If you had typed in BT* you would have found them.  :wink:

Can't disagree. but was the coverup regarding just Joran or other people and things going on that the incident coul have brought into the light? Just thinking out loud again. All of your points are very astute and on the money IMO.

totally possible.. all someone needs is the log in and password and if 5 people had it... well, she could too.

Anna - I believe it is fact.  It's information that KJ was holding back.  There is a front page post on it..I'll go find it for you.

Anna, this came out when the Aruban Judge denied Paulus' bid for compensation.  Klaas probably has the original document.  I could find it, but it would take me a while.

I would like to know what time the last phone call Paulus made that morning. To me that solves a lot of the case.

Hello Monkeys!

I think I will read back a bit.

Thanks Klass! I also remembered that but didn't know if it was rumor or fact. Question: Are the FP posts archived and in a place to read or will they be? TIA

I'm stealing this from a comment made on In Cold Blog, because I found it to be interesting.

"The sad fact is, Natalee's story is far from unique in Aruba and other "island paradises.” As an area director at the Doe Network, I cover the Bahamas, Aruba, and the Caribbean. I have many cases of the missing and unidentified currently awaiting validation by law enforcement, medical examiners, and coroner's court officials. Several of these are from Aruba. Once validated, they will be entered in Doe Network’s extensive databases."

Can that be confirmed?  I know about some of the questionable disappearances in Aruba over the past decade, but this statement comes across a little differently.

great discussions but I have to get out of here... good night monkeys.

keep the faith... eventually light wins over darkness...

The coverup started with Joran because it was put into motion by PVDS.  Joran was, and is, his main concern.  The others were brought into it because they had to be involved.  I do not believe this is PVDS's first attempt at dancing on the line between legal and illegal.  He has a history of working within the law, but manipulating circumstances to his own favor.  He frequents casinos known to launder drug money.  His legal background could provide services that people who break the law successfully need.  I'm speculating here, but I do believe PVDS is a very slimey dude.

right this HAD to come out when deciding if he was getting the money.. and then of course he got his ass handed to him in front of the new judicial candidates... OHHHH that was RICH!!!

It does sound like new cases that are not already known, doesn't it?  More missing and unidentified in Aruba.  Perhaps the body washed up this week is one of them.

That is mind boggling, even tho it shouldn't be.  :shock:  :shock:

Klaasend
I did BT* and even B*  and made sure I had it in the "Search for Author" box...
I just did it again and still nothing ... Honest.. Monkey
???

For an entire society to be so corrupt and complicit in that corruption, there needs to exist a judiciary as well as a law enforcement that is bought and under the control of the leader of the corruption.  Aruba's government has long been owned by a corrupt regime.  This comes from the top down:  Oduber, Rudy Croes, and other ministers who participate in robbing the Aruban people of the lifestyle they deserve.  Unfortunately, island paradises with poorly educated natives are easily overtaken by organized crime which joins hands with the local government, in this case the Dutch.  This has been going on for generations on Aruba.

Not just Joran, but other people and things going on, IMHO

Easy
What is the "Doe Network" and did they list the missing persons ??

Link to the front page post:

http://tinyurl.com/27xaf6

PAUL VAN DER SLOOT HAD TWO PERSONAL CONTACTS WITH NATALEE THE NIGHT SHE DISAPPEARED
 
ORANJESTAD(AAN) On the 13th of  February 2007, the Superior Court dictated sentence against Paul van der Sloot in the case that he appealed with regards to the damages that his person as well as his family members asked for, seeing that in the Primary Court (Court of First Instance) Paul van der Sloot alone (no one else in his family) got a reward of 40,000 guilders for damages and 1500 guilders to cover the costs of the lawyers, court clerks, etc.
 
The sentence of the Superior Court fell like a bomb on Paul van der Sloot and his defence attorney because, according to the attorney, the Court made use of informations that do not agree with the truth.
 
The Court dictated that Paul van der Sloot fetched Joran and Natalee at the McDonald Palm Beach branch and took the two of them to the Holiday Inn, according to declarations by witnesses and also informations obtained from a phone tap carried out by the police.
 
Until recently, this key information was not known in the press and apparently only by the Police and Dept. of Justice.
 
The whole case of the disappearance of Natalee Holloway gets a different twist now that the information has come out from no less than the Superior Court, and in which mention is made of the declarations of witnesses and a phone tap that show or give an indication that Paul van der Sloot had on two occasions personal contact with Natalee during the night that she disappeared.
 
Mention is made that, according to one or more official reports of the phone tap and also the declaration of Paul van der Sloot himself, that Paul fetched Joran and Natalee at McDonald and took them to the Holiday Inn.
 
Based on this information, the judicial authorities and the police had at that time a justified basis to arrest Paul van der Sloot based on different suspicions.
 
According to the Superior Court, Paul van der Sloot himself is guilty, he made possible or caused (depends how every one interprets the grammar in the sentence of the Court’s) himself to be arrested and that Aruba cannot be held responsible for the damages that he suffered and for which he was demanding damages, which he won in First Instance, but appealed to get more, and now has lost everything.
 
In the sentence there are various points and aspects that brought a different view on the Natalee Holloway case and that in the coming days will be analyzed, but the most important information is the matter of fetching Natalee and Joran at the McDonald, Palm Beach, and also that Paul had on two occasions personal contacts with Natalee on the night that she disappeared.
 
The cardinal question now is: what did the police authorities hear on the tapped phone of Paul van der Sloot, and the next question is hotter still: at what time, under what circumstances, and where did Paul van der Sloot as the father of Joran van der Sloot  have contacts with Natalee Holloway the night she disappeared?
 
If the Superior Court says that in the official report mention is made that Paul van der Sloot fetched Joran and Natalee on the aforementioned night at McDonald Palm Beach, that is the first contact, but where did the second contact take place?

On the night of the disappearance of Natalee Holloway, Paul van der Sloot met again with Natalee after he left Joran with Natalee at the Holiday Inn? If that is the case, then where and at what time did Natalee disappear that night?
 
In the declarations of Joran and the Kalpoe brothers there was a heated discussion amongst them, with formal denials as to whether they went with Natalee to the house of Paul van der Sloot on the night of her disappearance.
 
That’s why it is important to get clarity on the two occasions that Paul van der Sloot had personal contacts with Natalee on the night in question and where and under what circumstances they occurred.
 
The lawyer for Paul van der Sloot denies that Paul declared that he fetched Joran and Natalee at McDonald Palm Beach, and that he had contacts with Natalee the night she disappeared, but the Superior Court of Justice based its sentence on the information presented by the interim Attorney General of Aruba.
 
Now, who is lying and who is telling the truth?

I believe there was another article posted by MF that mentioned the 4am time.

Yeah, PVDS and Anita are what I like to refer to as Shady & Vague   :)

The Doe Network is for people unidentified OF,

Was it Oduber or Croes or someone else that was all pissed off becuase someone questioned the govt.. Or am I thinking of something that did not happen  :?

The island is a hub for the drug traffic from South America to North America.  This is facilitated by a corrupt government and a business environment that supports it.  The casinos, for example, are the perfect businesses to launder the drug money.  The island banks are uncontrolled and the perfect vehicle to move the money from North America to South America.  The government and business leaders love the bribes and payoffs so they look the other way to allow this to continue.  It's their livelihood, after all, because Aruba is so deeply in debt that their meager tourism is not going to fill the tax coffers.  

So, you see, the pieces were all in place for a very effective, very corrupt, coverup of the death of an innocent American girl.  We would probably not even have learned about all of this if the American media had not invaded the island and the blogs picked up the story, causing all of us to research and delve into the island's business and history.

I have been reading through the legal doc on BFN

Who is this person and why would they be given Urine samples to FBI in this case



---
Other FBI DOCS

Nameffitle/Description: Hayley Carroro Sagona
Date: 06/06/2005
Pages: 3
File #: 163a-bb-1426
Location: Jamaica, NY
Writer/Initiator: SA Gregory T. Mchugh

Name,Title/Description: Hayley Sagona (urine samples)
Date: 06/07/2005
Pages: 1
File #: 163a-bb-1426
Location: Huntington NY
Writer

Klaas- the fact that the polis and justice knew about the calls and so DID Paulus, because he had all records relating to his case tells me that he thought that he was going to get away with this aspect of the case.

He didn't have a certain someone to protect him it seems.

I recall Paulus saying that about 4am and Alberto G I think it was backing up what Beth heard and that being why Paulus was deemed worthy of jail time.

What I can't wrap my mind around is what Joran and Natalee could have been doing at 4 a.m. at McDonalds as that sure doesn't fit any kind of time line.  Maybe the deal is just picking up Joran?  Who was seen at McD?  Paulus and Joran and Natalee?  That would be huge news.  Paulus and Joran?  Paulus using ATM nearby?  Paulus and Joran and another person?

I don't believe Natalee was seen at McD's at 4 a.m. is my problem.

.

I don't think  anyone knows.  She may have been someone that came forward saying she thought she'd been drugged?  We really don't know.

that is mighty strange if you ask me, But everything is strange about this case

It's my understanding that PVDS's phone was tapped and they intercepted him saying that he picked up Joran and Natalee at 4am.  Doesn't make it true.

Edited to add:  Could have been a partial truth.  He could have picked up Joran and a dead Natalee.

How strange.  I find she gave them WINE SAMPLES!?

G€¢ Nameffitle/Description: Hayley Carroro Sagona
Date: 06/06/2005
Pages: 3
File #: 163a-bb-1426
Location: Jamaica, NY
Writer/Initiator: SA Gregory T. Mchugh
G€¢ Name,Title/Description: Hayley Sagona (wine samples)

http://www.scaredmonkeys.net/viewtopic.php?t=678&sid=b2c7778fe081babad1e2d5eefa92b888

Wonder which one is right?   :lol:

http://doenetwork.org/

What if she was propped up between the two of them??

Translation error - it is urine

ha ha ha  :lol:

Just strikes me funny that urine can be mistranslated to "wine."   :lol:

You are absolutely right.

Oldfart used a program that reads PDF (uncopyable)  files and turns it into regular text.  There are some errors in the transition between PDF and text, lol  :lol:

This is what I"ve been trying to say for so long, you said it well AZ. How does a whole country, a whole society - toe the line of everyday drug infestation, murder, rampant porn - how do the decent people of Aruba tolerate this.
It's truly a ceaspool of filth and crime, and the average people just exitst.
Poor Aruba, they'll forever be owned by Natalee.  Even the ugly misfits will always think Natalee when they hear Aruba.

Likely.  She may have been barely conscious.  Remember, I think it was about 3 AM or so that Paulus (or someone) was searching the VDS computer for drug information.  Was she unconscious then and they suspected overdose?  Did Paulus take Joran and an unconscious Natalee somewhere (Lorenzo's?) and then tell someone he picked them up at McDonalds to cover his tracks?

Rob  being real dumb here  but if people are missing how can they be unidentified ??  If you have a body that cannot be identified  then that to me would be unidentified  that they attempt to match to missing person's reports  :?
Sorry ... cornfused as usual

I have wondered the same thing, but how did Joran get to MCD's with a dead Natalee? Who took him if he didn't have a car? I may have forgotten facts that would explain this . . . any ideas??

Until Natalee's disappearance, we didn't even know where Aruba was or what went on there.  However, organized crime and the drug trade took over this island a long time ago.  The TNI articles detail the history of Aruba's mafia ties.  While the mafia families have made a visible exit, the crime and corruption continues in a more modern manner.  This is still organized crime, managed long distance with digital money laundering, highly lucrative porn businesses, rampant drug trafficking and online and casino gambling.  The decent people of Aruba?  I think they left a long time ago or they have learned to adapt.

Wasn't Paulus searching the web for drugs & alcohol on that Monday night right before 8 pm when he was supposed to be taking or picking up Joran from Racqyuet Club  who he knew or did not know was out gambling that Monday night?

hold on... I have a post from a friend that does exactly that... I'll get it..

Just because PVDS said McDonalds does not make it true.  McDonald is not far from the hotels and the Fisherman's Huts.  PVDS could have said McDonalds because he thinks someone spotted him in that area.  McDonalds itself would have been closed.

I don't think that search was until the next night.  But, I believe the computer times had been dinged  and so I don't know what to think.

To add to your scenario:  I don't know if they drove around first or in the middle or when.  I believe the Kalpo car was in motion and the gardner saw Joran and others.  Natalee may have been originally hurt by the rocks or Arashi.  She was taken to VDS and I'm thinking the porn was put on as backdrop film during attack at house. I still believe she was hurt trying to get through the gate (after attempting to get a call off).  The talk around the pool was that night because that is where it happened. IMO

I distinctly remember that it was stated or known that someone at the VDS home was researching the topic of overdose online, but I don't know the time. Was it confirmed that it was PVDS? IMO the time of the search is telling and adds to the timeline. Does anyone know the specifics of the overdose information being read online?

very well could have been. there was a case in ME where the murderer drove through burger king with the person he murdered in the passenger seat, the drive thru camera is what caught him eventually...

MARY X MAKES A DIFFERENCE
Over the last two years I have been blessed to meet some amazing people. People who put aside their own lives in the hopes of helping others.

When Natalee Holloway became a CRIME VICTIM on Aruba many people used their technology skills to help the Holloway's and the Twitty's. Most of us had little knowledge of just how vast the internet is and learned those skills on the fly. We collectively gathered the information on the suspects and found a tremendous amount of info in her case.

Few people are as skilled as Grande and Chicago_510. In fact, their 'KUNG-FU' is very powerful.

Did you know there is another way to use this technology?

TECHNOCRIMINOLOGY 201.

MARY X OPENS PANDORA'S BOX IN THE HOPES OF HELPING GRIEVING FAMILIES.

MARY X'S STORY.

I am a mom and my youngest graduates this year. A few years back he wanted a computer and I asked him to show me the basics and he did. I managed to get around from site to site and landed on a few missing persons sites and some of the story's struck me because it must be so hard for the people who have a missing child or loved one just to get up each day. I don't think I could do it.

So I decided to try and match some of the unidentified people in morgues to those missing people because I also believe that when people are born they are given names by someone who loves them and when the person dies it should be that they die with the same names given them at birth and be put to rest by their family's and not listed as a John or Jane Doe in a freezer someplace-So that would be the WHY part. Now on to the HOW part.

I bop around from morgue to morgue on the internet and some will list clothing worn at the time or list physical markings. Others will show actual photos and that is the HOW I do it part.

I have contacted a few coroners in different parts of the country and have also contacted some police departments and made a few friends, but I have run into a few also that I don't think could find themselves or some that I believe wear there uniforms to bed because they love their badge so much. I have met a few that are
thankful for the help and are willing to listen to a theory regardless of how far fetched it may sound, those are the ones that get solved.

WHAT MOTIVATES ME?

The fact there are so many people missing loved ones that have no answers as to why this happened and where there loved ones are.

These families of "the missing" wake up every day and go to bed each night with those same questions on there minds and from the tv shows I have watched and the many articles I have read each day is the same over and over again because with out answers they can not move on.

One mother put it this way, it's like each day is a repeat of the day it happened she also added that not knowing is the hardest part because you can't even think of closure until you have an answer. It is family's and parents that motivate me to
find these people.

I look in the areas that they don't want to think about - morgues. I try to see if I can match clothing, dates, birthmarks, prior surgeries, prior broken bones, breast enlargements. Anything that may single out a victim of crime or accident victim to those of the people reported missing.

I do it to help these families find closure so they can begin the healing process and not have to wake up each day wondering will today be the day police get a lead? Will today be the day he or she comes home? Each night they go to bed wondering will tomorrow be the day I get answers?

Some people last saw there loved one so long ago they have given up hope of any closure at all and just go on existing in the world. They have had birthdays and holidays go by that are only enjoyed by a memory they have of the last one spent together at a happier time when they were not in this nightmare and unfortunately that is the way some will continue to live.

I believe in miracles and the fact that some have come home alive and healthy after years of being missing is proof that miracles do exist, but sadly not everyone gets one. But still, knowing that miracles do happen should help them to continue to pray and hope that maybe it will happen for them to. I was raised to love people-all people, not just the ones of my same skin color or faith. I was raised to treat people the way I would like to be treated. I was raised to believe that God not only judges you for your sins but he also judges you for what you do for others. It is those values that make finding missing people my PASSION.

If you have or know someone that is missing a loved one it is very important that dental records are made available and that DNA (preferably from parents) is entered into Codis.

To help you understand the importance of these 2 facts I am including a link explaining the use of dental information in missing persons and unidentified body cases. ABFO Guidelines for the Use of Dental Information in Missing Person and Unidentified Body Cases

For more information on helping to find the missing or identifying unidentified remains see THE DOE NEWTORK This is an excellent site with many resources.


Mary, thank you so much for helping the Families of those MISSING to get the conclusion they all seek. It is people like you that make the world go round. Thank you also for sharing your Passion and giving us all a new understanding of how the Internet can be a tool of HELP.

Please stay tuned for more from Mary X as she makes the discoveries that make a difference.

....it couldn't have been mcDonalds, had to have been somewhere close.

I just found this in there too

Same place Huntington NY..  just seems odd .. to me

Thanks Klass! . . . it makes more sense that it was another cover story, especially considering they were closed. I wasn't sure if MCD's drive-thrus were open 24 hrs in Aruba like some in the US.

AzLady
I checked the scanned PDF   Urine is correct...
What can I say the PDF  converter made some mistakes  and missed in the proofing :oops:   Sorry

I believe the location is the location of the FBI office maybe?

So, does anyone know what is close to that MCDs that could have been where they were going?

Shadow - I'm pretty certain McDonalds closes at 11pm in Aruba

I am reading that article over and over trying to internalize this.  So OK, he SAID this and so did witnesses but they could have been lying.  IMO, I have never thought Natalee survived to see daylight and have to wonder if she was still alive at 4 a.m.  

So he and his wire taps which could also be lies are just saying this but since it was his own claim, he gets no $$$.  Have to wonder what he was thinking as Joran was claiming to have already walked home, etc. by them  Guess they just didn't have their stories straight yet.

But to our knowledge, no one actually saw them there or ever saw Natalee after she got into the car with the J2K, right?

Sue - I have a scenario in mind about this (which someone else may have posted by now). If I'm not mistaken, this person also had a bottle of wine, possibly a partial bottle, that she brought along for testing. (I'm assuming female.) I think she returned home from Aruba, thought she had been drugged on the last night she was there, and went straight to the FBI (or maybe via local police dept.). This is something she might not have done had she not heard about the Holloway case.

I INFER this from the same statements you've been reading. I'm pretty sure there was a lab test for urine as well as the contents of a wine bottle, and I think she requested it.

I know there was some mention or rumor at some time that the VDS had family or property in the US. Can anyone confirm this and if so, is it in this area of NY?? Just wondering. Then again, could have been two friends who were in Aruba together. Very curious . . . Anyone know??

shadow

When Joran was at the HI, he was picked up at McDonalds.  Maybe it's easier for cars to get in and out.  Maybe the casino workers (Guido) have to park their cars there.  Maybe some people were taking a walk and saw them drive by or pull in because someone was sick to their stomach.  Who knows.

Thank You Ms Marple... that makes perfect sense.

Thanks Klass!

Maybe we should get dana to do an interview with the doe network people?  I think that would be interesting...

Are you saying someone traveled from Aruba to the states with a partial bottle of wine in their posession?

Pant... whew.. Pant
I think I'm caught up for the moment
? Who is Tracy Allen

? has / could some one please try a search for postsers with a name that is B*  and let me know if you have any results  :?
TIA

I promise not to make a Shango reference on this one...I think I promise.  :wink:

McDonalds is near the Holiday Inn

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub2/LionsDenVDS6.jpg)

Sorry should have been Tracy Allan

would have still been possible back then.. wouldn't it?  I know I have traveled with wine as a carry-on before heading home for holidays, etc.

It was Claudio Eldridge (sp?) who backed up Beth et al on the 4:00 a.m. pickup time. It's in the documents, a letter, pertaining to the NY case. Although the letter may have been written NOT in connection with that case. Of course klaas would know exactly ...

(Sorry, just remember being really floored that SOMEONE on Aruba backed it up, and I don't think I'll forget that name ...)

Did not realize they were so close. Although, seems weird or unlikely that hotel/casino workers and/or visitors need to park at MCDs. Then again I have never been to Aruba so I have no idea.

Hey all ya'll!

The file number looks interesting........

Goodnight!

Mrs Red- please do..

MsMarple- could it be possible that Haley used the bottle to preserve a sample while still on Aruba?

Please do Lala's Mom!  :)

I just think if she were dead, that there would have been another pickup point rather than a lit McDonalds. Picking up an inebriated/passed out girl, at Mc D, perhaps.

Who gave Natalee the poisoned wine of Bacchus?

.

 :D  :D  :D

bartenders at CnC's on joran's $20 drink...

If the crime scene (battery, rape) took place away from the VanderSloot residence, Paulus would have been called by the boys. If Paulus came from his house to meet up with J2K, most likely he would have sent K2 away and handled the disposal with Joran only.  Natalee's body would have most likely been transferred from one vehicle to another. This is simply a cloudy area of the timeline.  Speculation could have any vehicle there: (a) Paulus' vehicle, (b) a real close friend's vehicle.  Would Paulus have known to keep forensic evidence out of one of his own vehicles? At that particular moment, however, he could never in his wildest dreams imagined that the ALE would allow forensics to disappear from his vehicle.

I think at some point that Paulus sent the Kalpoe's away and dealt with this with Joran only.  Paulus and Joran had a very important job to do.

Part of me can see that maybe a small (friends only) pool party / Joran's apartment party took place after CnC.  However, if Paulus was out and about between 3-7AM, that eliminates a pool party scenario for me somewhat.  Doublethink: Maybe Paulus wants people to think he was out and about (@McD) to steer theories away from the safe haven, which could turn out to be his own home.

Any ideas....

ala_gunslinger  :lol:  :wink:

I just scanned through that site and hardly broke the surface, but it is extremely heart breaking to see all those faces.  Each has a story and a grieving family left behind.  Not sure I can spend much time reading through that one.

(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c314/OldF/gaah-1.gif)
who is the person who's name is Red above (miss spelled it twice no)
Hi GunSlinger..  /  bye GunSlinger /
Drop in again sometime
Let us know what you find on that case #

Sorry just one of those nights where I just need to go collapse (http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c314/OldF/db212351.gif)  in a bit

I completely agree with you on this.

I am just so weary of all the lying and the lies.  Did not one person tell the truth about anything!

But then I guess that was the idea, to totally obfuscate everything so we would never be able to figure it out.

Paulus was prolly afraid he was seen sneaking home at 4 am from his gf house, the one he can't name as his alibi because people would be hurt.

 :evil:

joran was picked up paulus

joran was ALONE


joran and crew had already taken Natalee somewhere to get rid of her body.

joran was left somewhere so he could come up with "another" story as
to where he was, on the beach, walking home, gambling somewhere else

TAKE YOUR PICK


then paulus was called


but paulus and joran had not gotten their TIMES fixed between the two of them

McDonald's Aruba NV

Kamerlingh   Onnnesstraat 8          583-3766
LG Smith Boulevard                       586-1515
Sta Cruz  54B                               585-4525

Hey ... I'm sorry about the wine reference out of the Scanned PDF to txt doc and not proofing it more..
If I had an edit button it would be gone...

Has any tried the search with posters names of B*
Just wondering
Thanks

after have been there, my recollection is that McD is super close to the Holiday Inn, as in 1-2 min walk.

It's so obvious.  Paulus was not looking for the cure, he was looking for the poison.  He had to make her die, fast, to protect his first legitimate son.  He was sloppy.

He is paying, and will take the fall.

JMHO

Why not? Especially if she thought something had been added to it ... and planned to have it, as well as urine, tested. Just pack in a checked bag. (Pack really well, in multiple plastic bags, of course ... )

This is just speculation on my part, of course.

robots,

i agree. this makes sense that Joran was picked up solo by Paulus. Body was hidden and retrieved by the two of them after Joran was picked up.

Would all of this action eliminate the possibility that Natalee's demise took place at the VDS residence?

In this case....

WINE = URINE

It was a problem with the PDF converter that Oldfart used.  It is not wine, it is urine.

Klass!

Have I told you lately that you are an Eagle?

Thanks Gunslinger  :lol:

This has been part of my *gut* feelings from a long time ago.

I posted here about 2 months ago. I think time wise, the very same thoughts...for the very rich elders...I also strongly feel that these tapes were sold for very large sums....there is a tape/dvd of Natalees' last night in aruba somewhere...I'm still on page 4 trying to play catchup..

HELLO MONKIES....DON'T WASTE BANDWIDTH TO REPLY...I KNOW YOU'RE ALL HERE ;-)

Destiny :wink:

Wanna compare ages?

OF...i entered BT a lots of ways and it came up with nothing.

MsM..i was asking a question, not debating the issue. If something happened to the woman on her trip, she was smart to save the wine.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

And for those who do not know....

Eagles don't flock.

They have to be found one at a time!

Do you think the rape / murder scene took place at the rocks?
I know all about the Chicago videos, painting of the rocks, etc.. - Is that the only explanation for painting these rocks (By the way - I do not buy, for one second, they were painted to be noticed by car drivers)?

This would be a public place where anyone could gather evidence so why not have a crew eliminate the forensics at the location.

Those stills of someone watching the painters sure does match up with Paulus - he must have an unknown twin on the island?

Yes, in the Vin DeSouza letter it does say that Claudio was the one who heard Paulus say 4am.

OF,

Tracey Allen is the woman jogger who was accosted by somebody at the Fisherman Hut area a couple of weeks before Natalee disappeared.

He tried to get her into his car, etc.

.

Hi Destiny! My gut as well as other things have made me think this for a long time. I have my theories . . .

I believe the rocks is a crime scene.  Whether Natalee was raped there or she tried to get away and they caught up with her there I don't know.  I do believe there was in the least blood on those rocks.

JMHO....

It's a diversion.


It happened at his home.

*** END JMHO ***

OF,

Member name has to have three characters to search.  I remember poster DT never could be found on a search either.

.

Is THE POISONED WINE OF BACCHUS a metaphor of some sort? I have never heard or seen anything regarding wine.

Also, I saw a poster reference bottles, containing drugs of some sort, found out back of CnC. I have never seen this before either.

I do not intend to put weird rumors out there, maybe I just missed part of a conversation or two.

Can we at least get a huge 'DUH!' on this one????

Did anyone see the article today in BonDia? It was very long and it was about the Winklaar guy that was arrested the same time as Lorenzo. No mention of LVR but the article was difficult to translate. I think it mentioned he had a medical condition or something?

I have always thought Natalee died at the Sloot compound.  Not sure what Paulus was doing out and about at 4 am if he was.

You making fun of me?  :lol:

I have to agree with the diversion theory. Wonder what else was happening on the island while the rock painting was being filmed???

I saw it and looked for Lorenzo's name.  Did see LVR so I didn't bother trying to translate.

Julia Renfro was telling Beth and Jug that Natalee's body was at the courthouse.

Absolutely not!!!!!  

You should know me better!

I'm serious as a heart attack!

Same here..I think it said he had a medical problem but Rudy Croes instructed him to stay at KIA...Not entirely sure..

ala_gunslinger,

i appreciate your sarcasm here - but not everyone is convinced that this is the crime scene (100%). Some think it may be a distraction to divert away from the real scene, which may in fact be the VDS residence.

NEW FRONT PAGE POST:

Man Drowns in Aruba and Washes Ashore … Why Didn’t Natalee Holloway, if she Drown?
http://tinyurl.com/yt6g33

Edited to say . . . there may have been something on those rocks, but I don't feel it had anything to do with Natalee. It was too public . . . perhaps staged. Just thinking out loud.

Thanks Anna  and you  are correct
You have to specify at least 3 characters + and * to do a search
:head-slap: :head-slap:   dumb old fart

I think they were making a fake crime scene at the rocks to use to frame the security guards and got caught and had to go back and cover it up.

This is worse than any Mexican movie plot as far as being convoluted.  Is it really this complicated or have certain PTB made it appear to be far more than it really is?

.

I think Natalee was at the VDS home, too...but that doesn't mean something couldn't have happened at the rocks, too.

The timeline is so confusing, and we really don't know who is telling the truth, if anyone. As far as I'm concerned, the time between 1 a.m. on May 30, when Natalee was last seen at C&Cs, and the time Joran showed up at school the next day, is unaccounted for--we haven't gotten a straight story about what happened when, and where.

I was reading Simian earlier today; he said something about "the road from the boy's home leads to dirty water." I think Simian, from what we know about him and his possible inside connections, is far more credible than any of the suspects whose PVs I've read.

The rock area is not all that public.  It's off a dirt road.  There are many rock areas behind the Lighthouse that look similar.  Let me go find a map.

az_gunslinger: others feel different. WHO KNOWS??

In other words, she did not make the decision to be human.  She chose the wrong side.  Her later actions were a desperate attempt to recover from her mistake.

thanks Shell
But as Anna pointed out ... it appears that you need at least 3 characters  plus and * to do a generic search ... :shock:

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/Sub2/lighthousearea6.jpg)

 I suppose that depends on 'which' crime scene you are talking about....

But they were painting the rocks in broad daylight with people around.  Not really like anything they did not want seen.  I have to agree it is either a diversion or they were planning to frame the SGuards with it in some way.  Maybe with things taken from their homes when they were arrested.

Then they had alibis so had to go back to the drawing board.

JMO.

.

mrs red - thanks for the clarification.  i knew about drink spiking, $20, etc.. i think i answered my own question after posting. the back of CnC was to mean behind the bar.(as opposed to outside in the parking lot)

Buckshot wrote;


I think it is a reference to the tainted/drugged drink Natalee was given just prior to leaving C+C's.

Then again, you are correct.

I believe the "rock area" is to the left of the photo outside the view.

(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/klaasen3/ArubaLighthouseOverhead.jpg)

Thanks Anna...remember I did not do that.  It was Anna!  Oh my, does that mean she just tangoed with me?  :shock:

funny how BACCHUS was used.

Has there ever been any info from Aruba suggesting that there was other police or recovery/discovery activity on the island at that time??

Perhaps the rocks were not the actually location of the original assault but the end of it all . . . any thoughts?

 I am afraid so.

 Not from aruba, but from Dave.

Hiya Monkeys

I think The Aruban Disinformation crew had their orders to cover this up & blame the victim. We had best get ready for round ??? from that bunch.
Renho has something to hide IMO & was planted to deter the family &/or keep them far away from the real truth.
I don't know if the relationship (so rumored) between KJ & PVDS is true but I heard it long ago. I also heard Anita had the connections to the Hague. So why wouldn't Anita's connections cover for PVDS disgretions?

OF - Tracy Allan is the woman who reported an experience on the beach on Aruba to the FBI. She is the one who was involved in the sketch that looks like that "Strawberry" guy. He attacked her one morning, maybe while she was jogging? But she got away ... her story is in the M&C thread; it happened before Natalee disappeared. She reported it but didn't hear a thing back until I think December 2005; that's when the FBI interviewed her and did the composit ...

The short version is in the Summary; my sig line goes there. There is a longer version BEFORE the summary. I'm probably not remembering the details well ...

* * *
I think Huntington NY must have a testing location; maybe the FBI contracts with such? I don't think there's an FBI field office there, per se. (I think I looked this up awhile back.)

Okay, back to the drawing board. I thought I spotted TWO lab exams for Haley what's-her-name, one urine, one wine - but I'll check.

Gunslinger - I agree and I really don't want to go into detail.

I have been known to tango, Lala's.  This has gone on for so long, I don't think there is a position I have not held at one time or another.

Yes, odd they used the name of the member of the House of Representatives but I think that was just a coincidence.  Yes, I know some people don't believe there are such things but I think this was just a way of describing giving her a drink.

I think Natalee was drugged to some degree before leaving C&C.  More could have been added later, we don't know.

.

I agree Buckeye that she was hurt at the house.  I believe she in fact got that call off and this is where she ran into trouble.

I also wonder if she woke up and saw them filming her and that is when she freaked.  They mention about the porn in the car and that is a half truth.  The car was really the home and the porn film was really them filming her.  Why would Joran care about the Kalpoes putting a porn film on in the car.  This guy just drugged and kidnapped a person he is going to rape and he would worry about her seeing a porn film.  Just thinking here.

Klaasend / San / anyone with an edit button

After some further review.. could you add a BIG DISCLAIMER to refer to the PDF at the front of the PDF  to TXT conversion of the disclosure items

Or just get rid of it...(for now at least)

I think I would rather have no information rather than Incorrect info

That OCR software did a pretty good job ... but I failed at proofing it. :cry:  :oops:   Sorry
Thanks

I am just kidding about this wine=urine thing.  Now everyone stop emailing me. LOL

I could be totally off-base here but this just jumped out at me.....

In the declarations of Joran and the Kalpoe brothers there was a heated discussion amongst them, with formal denials as to whether they (Kalpoes?) went with Natalee to the house of Paul van der Sloot on the night of her disappearance.

am I reading this right?

I think that she is the reason they came up with the beach story...

Hi Buckshot...so you've been to Aruba?  Great, YOU should be able to help fill in a lot of details...like the 1-2 min walk in your post!...Glad we have you as a resourse to fill in some blanks...welcome aboard.

Destiny

I have always thought this . . .

The Winklaars (father & son) were arrested in the pot bust. The older Winklaar apparently has a variety of medical conditions including high blood pressure. The prison diet is making it worse. (The prison doctor and the family doctor have different opinions, of course.) Family also complains that he's not supposed to have salt and that request has been ignored. Basically they're trying to get HIM released until his court date. They have not attempted a similar appeal to have the son released.

That is correct. Also got very heated when Joran said he killed NH and the Kalpoes help bury her from the Diario translations of Jorans confession.

Oldfart, you really want me to delete it for now?  You can add it back when we move to the new forum if you want.  Up to you.

I have to call it a night . . . must be up early in the morning. I have very much enjoyed the discussions tonight. I hope to see all of you tomorrow. May the truth be finally revealed! Goodnight Monkeys!

I wondered if she somehow got out of the car, was already injured, was bleeding and was trying to hide from them at the rocks............

Perhaps the rocks were not the actually location of the original assault but the end of it all . . . any thoughts?[/quote]

the end of it all..... meaning what. VDS house to rocks.

it is hard for to imagine young men (18-25) filming such a thing. as if drugging and raping isn't hard enough to believe. Filming.. it could be true... but I have a hard time inserting this into the story. am i wrong?

This is what they have been doing since day one.  Keeping the crime away from the house.  

I agree about Paulus sending the Kalpoes away.  No what would he have allowed them to know what he was going to do.

JuJu
JMO  but it depends on which story / PV's you are looking / comparing.
That I knew... Some one took Joarn home but they could not agree if it was Dxxxxx or Sxxxxx

the end of it all..... meaning what. VDS house to rocks.

it is hard for to imagine young men (18-25) filming such a thing. as if drugging and raping isn't hard enough to believe. Filming.. it could be true... but I have a hard time inserting this into the story. am i wrong?[/quote]

yes you are, IMO... Remember we already have Freddy being questioned for filming the other girls on the island.  Heck that even happens constantly here in the US... kids will film/photograph anything.. like the fights, etc...

Oh dear. For one thing, he slept in boats (homeless).

I haven't seen a cause of death yet. Or anything about which boat he might have been sleeping in that night. Or whether where he slept had anything to do with it.

He probably d-r-o-w-n-e-d, and it is unlikely that foul play will be suspected.

(But you KNOW I'm watching for it.  :wink:  )

:oops: Last That I knew  :oops:

the end of it all..... meaning what. VDS house to rocks.

it is hard for to imagine young men (18-25) filming such a thing. as if drugging and raping isn't hard enough to believe. Filming.. it could be true... but I have a hard time inserting this into the story. am i wrong?[/quote]

Yes, I am sorry to say you are wrong. There are numerous amateur online porn sites ie Bangbus.com

Kalpoe's, I agree, were definitely sent away. Nadira was too worried about not messing up what time her two sons arrived back at their home. Additionally, DK was on the internet later in the evening - most, if not all, agree with this. What time was he logged in and chatting with his friend from USA?

it just said to me that Nat did go to the VDS house, and the argument was about whether or not the K's went there too.....

Could the final blow have been at the rocks (Guido = Heavy Battery).  They knew she was still alive and they wanted to make sure she was dead after taking her from the VDS home.

O/T - Not much happening in SF today, but I just put a few pics in the Lounge. Hoping for a better day tomorrow.

We have too many crime scenes and suspects.  This is not something Paulus would have allowed to be known by a large number of people I don't think.

.

Yes, I am sorry to say you are wrong. There are numerous amateur online porn sites ie Bangbus.com[/quote]

I have seen these sites. Aren't the girls at least awake, as opposed to a nodding in and out Natalee. Would make for a bad video, in my opinion.
Or, was this a beginning to future lies concerning her being on the verge of having adverse reaction to alcohol and her supposed drugs(fabricated also), subsequently leading to her death?

Thanks Ms.Marple that was what I thought it may say..I wonder when LVR has his court date? Must be coming up soon..

or did dismemberment take place at the rocks.

I have seen these sites. Aren't the girls at least awake, as opposed to a nodding in and out Natalee. Would make for a bad video, in my opinion.
Or, was this a beginning to future lies concerning her being on the verge of having adverse reaction to alcohol and her supposed drugs(fabricated also), subsequently leading to her death?[/quote]
_____________________________________________

There are rape videos at those sites as well.  Just saying.  Don't believe for a minute that these boys weren't into filming and distributing their amateur porn flicks.

Horrible to think of, but entirely possible.

Why go from house to rocks? And not house to disposal? What could be accomplished at the rocks that couldn't be accomplished home or elsewhere - disposal loacation(s)?

BUCKSHOT - See San's post above.

qUIDO WAS A MALE MODEL.  wAS HE A BOXER TOO? sORRRY FOR THE ALL CAPS!

Beth and others stated that there was a lot of blood in the KP's car,  my question is what had caused her to bleed that much....was she beat up or what.......hate to ask this, I don't mean to be morbid, but I would like to hear what ya'll think...TIA

Thanks - just saw it.

If this train of thought is followed, the it would be an opportune time to borrow some tools at the Fisherman's Huts. Not to mention, along the way.

I tend to think her body has been destroyed as it would close the possibility of it accidentally being discovered at a later time.

Guido could have gotten really pissed if Natalee scratched his models's face.

G'nite Monkeys
We all have our thoughts on who and how things occured.

I just wish there was a way to  leak, borrow, buy, of otherwise obtain (W/O compromising the case) any good / reliable info from Monday and Tuesday  Who was where, who did they call / what did the say to other people etc.

Why ... because come Tueday evening the story from that morning was already changing...

JMO...

Keep the faith and keep turn the Chit over

SeeYaaByeee

Maybe, instead, they went from rocks to house. Maybe something violent happened there and they ended up taking Natalee (alive or deceased) back to the VDS house simply to figure out what to do next.

I feel so crass talking about this. I hate to speculate about anyone's demise this way.

Why do you ask?  I don't remember hearing anything about him being a boxer.

I don't understand how someone can be arrested on suspicion of heavy battery then, POOF!  Nothing and they are free to go.  There had to be some basis for his arrest.  Why not just question him as a witness if he is not involved?  Why the arrest with the gruesome title, etc.

I think we know who and what but we don't know how or where.

But how could there be a basis for all these arrests then absolutely nothing ever comes of any of it?  I don't get it.  What was the basis for the arrests in the first place and what happened to that information?

.

I have seen these sites. Aren't the girls at least awake, as opposed to a nodding in and out Natalee. Would make for a bad video, in my opinion.
Or, was this a beginning to future lies concerning her being on the verge of having adverse reaction to alcohol and her supposed drugs(fabricated also), subsequently leading to her death?[/quote]

IMO they (the 3 perps) did not count on an unconscious Natalee just a drugged one.

Hard to say..Hate to talk about this but it needs to be addressed. She could have been hit by the car or hit in the head with a object like a bat. That much blood wouldnt be from a simple assault. For all we know the idiots drugged her again with a huge dose after she put up a fight. Possible that she overdosed or had complications and they took her out to the rocks to put her out of her mysery.

It is a dog and pony show that appeases the media while buying them time to set the stage for the next dog and pony show.  In the interim, they have the opportunity to hear feedback on the arrest(s) to see which lies stick best in the media.  Once a lie has been determined to have sounded good in the media, they probably log it in as a fact.

I am not exactly sure what heavy battery can include. Does anyone know?
I do know that someone can simply be charged with battery without actually
touching the other person. If you pull on someones coat sleeve for example in attempting to keep them from leaving you can be charged with battery.

I know this has been discussed but I think this very well may be a truthfull post...IMO

I have heard you mention blacklabel .. is this he/she?

bakablGuest Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 1:00 am Post subject:

Natalee Holloway Questions to be asked of the Two Men

Frist Im vary sorry to hear of the vary sad case of Natalee Holloway in such a wonderful place like Aruba but it could happen anywere at any time.

There are a few questions that need to be asked of the two men that the FBI are questioning -

1st ask them about the drink that was given to Natalee around 3:15am Aruba Time the morring Natalee never retyrn to her hotel and ask them about what the drug was in the drink that Natalee drunk without her knowing.

2nd ask them about the boat and the 2-1/2 mile trip they took. They should break dowm and tell the truth about are were Natalee can be found.

abbadminSite AdminJoined: 24 Nov 2002Posts: 512Location: New Hampshire's Monadnock Region Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 9:35 am Post subject:

I agree--it's a misinformation campaign. Look at all the conflicting stories and timelines we have about a timespan of a few hours (not to mention rumors about crime or burial scenes all over the island)--we don't know what to believe.

It was fun, monkeys--I love being on here at night. I have to go now so my husband can use the computer to practice law. I may be back in a few minutes. Hope so!

Although i say that, there very well may be reason to have linked Guido to these charges.

Do you think he might be able to tell me the difference between battery and heavy battery?

if PVDS had contact twice that night/morning how in the hell did they release him as a suspect???????????  :twisted:  :twisted:  :twisted:

It's my understanding that particular information had not been presented to a judge prior.  KJ was holding out.  It was only presented to deny PVDS compensation.

Gut feelings tell me that a pool party / cozy apartment setting would have been first choice after leaving the bar. As one poster said - it was an environment they were very familiar with.

If people say that friends parked behind the wall of the VDS property and hopped the wall to enter the property, is it completely out of the question to think that while a drugged Natalee attempted to climb the back wall of the property that she could have suffered terrible injuries in the process?
I can't say that I have seen this idea proposed.

Thanks Klaas!!  Got to give it up for tonite..exhausted....but may we all live to fight another day......nite Monks

_____________________________________________

There are rape videos at those sites as well.  Just saying.  Don't believe for a minute that these boys weren't into filming and distributing their amateur porn flicks.[/quote]

San wrote:
I believe they were filming it to sell for a profit.  I also believe there is a Florida connection in this.  Freddy's brother Ernesto.

Could have but I don't think Natalee would willingly climb the wall at the Sloot home to go to a party on her last night in Aruba.  It doesn't make sense.

Because he has friends in high places :x

I have read here connections to Mr. Pink, etc.. I do not think these kids got lucky enough to video and have sick fun with Natalee as she was in no shape to provide such entertainment for their sick minds on that night.

Some of these 'higher ups', it would make sense, would distance themselves from these young men, who they may have associated with in the past.  These older men were most likely involved in white collar criminal acitivity, and were smart enogh to realize that lots of money was at stake, subsequently, they turned their backs to the PIMPS so as to not be involved and associated with this case.  This case would catapult them into the limelight - a place I am sure they did not want to place themselves.

I know I am very repetative in my posting of Dutchlady posts.......but this one rings true to me.

+++++++++++++++++++

>>>>>SNIP

It is also the case that the beach was a later alibi as was the lighthouse one, as distancing from the home of Joran who had unlimited access. No kids shits on the beach if he has a bog at home. To graphic, then listen to kids of that age in school. No man or boy of over 16 would think of peeing in a gutter or laying in a tourism place as an alternative to his own drink parlour and bog. Yes, the words come as easily as other predators I have listened too, and what they do is tell a good story in their mind and regurtitate it. It takes a snake to catch a snake. The snake is not Joran, yes he has in my opinion lashed out at Natalee for some reason, but the duality of this is the repetition and stage management so that has to be a more older adult. He is procuring for someone else and simple bragging because he joins in on the action as a forensic cue from his own photos on the web.

Oldfart,

Someone may have already answered you, but when I just tried to search BT* or bt*, nothing was returned for Posts.  

Hi, all, I'm reading way back, so I'm not sure when I'll catch up.

Joran wouldn't have went to no other place but his home that night.  He had it all planned out.  It was too convenient to pass up with Anita being gone.

Is OF looking for San Fran day 2 posted in the lounge by BT. I didn't see it earlier but it's up now. What a hoot......

Maybe this is why? See Post #4

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?goto=lastpost&t=46659

Same case #

The only person who involved the "higher Ups" was Paulus.

I disagree with you about these kids not getting lucky enough to video their actions.  They did video or take pictures of what they did.  Paulus made a special trip to Florida and I believe it had to do with these pictures.

In a rented vehicle, I drove to the VDS residence while vacationing in Aruba. These climbing the wall stories make sense.  Otherwise, entering the residence involves driving through their main gate.  J2K were probably trying to be somewhat discreet at that time of night (was Paulus even home??)  Do you think Joran really had to sneak out, or were his parents used to him leaving his home at 11PM on a school night ? I have never given it much thought until now. If he snuck out, parking out back and climbing the wall makes sense to re-enter the residence.

I agree, I just can't see Natalee wanting to do this.  If she was drugged and pushed over the wall maybe.

Right. I am just speculating.  Maybe not pushed, but encouraged / helped with the re-entry into the residence.  Multiple friends, if true, would blow the discretion.  Maybe, there was no fear of being caught so they just waltzed (drove) right through the main gate.  Anita was not there.

Question: Was the rest of the VDS family in Holland, or just Anita ??

Hi Monkeys!   I'm just reading and catching up.  I noticed a new monkey and wanted to say Hi and Welcome!  Glad to have a new monkey aboard!

I've been looking for you!!!!

I LOVE your avi!!!!!

When you want another Tink, check the Lounge.............there's been a couple for you for a long time!  :wink:

OH, and sleddogs!  Welcome to you too!

BUCKSHOT - by all appearances, Valentijn and Sebastian were home and not in Holland with Anita.  There is some questions about that though.

I asked him, bleached. He doesn't know--he does commercial real estate law and doesn't know the criminal side of things. ;)

Right or wrong, I would love to hear detailed timelines for that evening, as speculated by everyone here. It is very interesting to read and ponder.

It seems as though everyone here, for the most part, is on the money in their assessments.  I realize that some the particulars are only known by the perpetrators themselves.

Thanks CBB.  I decided for a temporary change,  but I'm sure I will go back to Tink eventually.  My daughter sent this to me because we have 4 dachsunds and it seemed like a nice change for now.  So many other monkeys made changes, so had to follow the crowd.  :lol:

Looks like our new Monkey Buckshot is in need of some clothes though!

Will let you know, when I'm ready to go back to my Tink alter-ego :)

We have a poster by the name of Widget who found out early on that there were three Sloots that returned home on the plane.

I believe Widget.  I do not believe the other two boys were home.  The only people who say they were home were Paulus and Joran and the reason why they say this is because he helps their alibi.

If they were home why isn't there a statement from the middle brother.  I'll tell you why because Paulus would have involved a third son in his lies but this time it would be on a PV as a witness and he would be in big trouble if caught lying.

If they could interview Sander Gottenbos then can interview Val van der Sloot.

Oh, I love the pooches!!  :D
Just wanted to make sure you saw them.

Buckshot? If you want an avatar and need some help, I'll be happy to help in any way I can.  :wink:

WELCOME, BUCKSHOT!!!

- thank you !!!

You're welcome! Sooooo, just let me know if you want help with an avatar.  :wink:

( But, if you answer "thank - you" again, I still won't know if that means you're grateful that someone offered, or if you want an avatar and need help.  :oops: )  :lol:

Buck, I've worked on timelines and they're all over the map from the time the boys left C&Cs with Natalee to the time Joran went to school the next day. The time from around 1 a.m. to 8 a.m. is pretty much unaccounted for, especially the time between 1:30 and 3:30 a.m. (before the computer records and phone records indicate that Joran was home).

In other words...if the two younger Sloots were home there would be a reason to interview them.  If they were not home, why bother.  HMMMM.

Dihannah1

Thanks, I been missing in action for  a long time.  :)

Does anyone think evidence is stored in a central location or thrown away as to make sure it doesn't end up in the wrong hands?

Who would be the gatekeeper, if stored away.

Who was there even a need to hide from in Aruba? Since ALE had no intention of prosecuting the suspects, why even go through the interviews, etc..? It seemed as though it would not have mattered what a suspect said to ALE. (For example: Joran could describe his little heart away the truth of the whole evening and those interviewing him would simply say "Joran, we already know all of that - don't worry, buddy, you are not going to get in any trouble - we just need to know what lies to interject to throw the media off. This is all just to appease those stupid Americans and fool them into thinking we are doing the best we can")

i will let you know when i am ready. i was thanking you for your offer to help me.

I think they destroyed whatever evidence they could, maybe with the help of corrupt officials. There's no use hiding it and risking it coming back to incriminate them someday. My hope is they missed some crucial piece of the coverup...or that someone who knows something will come forward.

Julia Renfro :)

i am off to bed - good night to all.
thanks for the hospitality !!!

Nite Buckshot

Bacchus, that first from out the purple grape crushed the sweet poison of misused wine.
John Milton

Someone wondered about the source of this allusion.

When reading archives I found a post by arubagirl where she stated that Anita would not have to answer any questions or give details that would be negative towards Paulus...I'm just wondering if the same would hold true with the younger sons....will have to try to find the post....if it was front page...will let Klaas or San know for a copy & paste....

I think there were and still are some in ALE that truly wanted and expected this to be solved right away.  They were the ones that go to work each day thinking that things are normal. They had no clue as to what lies beneath the calm exterior of Aruba.  I am speaking more of the corruption than the drugs and gambling and stuff.  You don't have to be too smart to see what is happening on the surface...it's when you look under the rug that you see all the roaches.

Like Clyde Burke?

Goodnight, monkeys--see y'all in the morning!

Howdy folks. According to the time on my laptop, I'm up at 1:00 am on a school night. How cool!  :D

Hey, BT.  Want to tango with Lala's and me?  Sometimes we do that, late at night.

Sure. I can tango until my room mate Donna tells me to get off the durned computer and turn out the lights.  :lol:

Lala's, I agree.  I think Dave thought so, too.  So, how are those honest and hard-working men and women looking at themselves in the mirror nowadays?  If we assume they know what happened and witnessed this coverup, then they have not spoken out.  They have allowed this shameful mockery of injustice to continue and continue.

I find this to be a convenient excuse by Aruba.  If it wasn't a law then in Aruba it's a law now. :roll:

I'm outraged and disgusted by the behavior of all the people in Aruba who watched every step of this coverup and did nothing.  They knew of the affair between Paulus and Janssen and turned a blind eye.  They knew of Joran's raping and murdering and made excuses for him.  They know of much more that goes on that we are not aware and they do nothing.  This angers me.

I've only had a chance to read bits and pieces today. Is it pretty well established that Janssen was having an affair with PVDS? I know someone told Rob, and people were asking him questions earlier today, but that was the last I read about it.

Lala's, I wrote you an entry much earlier today that addressed some Simian posts that you posted.  Did you see it?  I think I'm so tired tonight that I forget what it was about!  :lol:  :lol:

Hi Everybody

BT  check your mail.  Hope you're having a great time.

No, actually we have not seen any definitive evidence of a PVDS and Janssen affair.  However, Rob has explained that a source of his on Aruba told him this and he believes him.  So, I guess it really rests on Rob's credibility.  It's kind of like whether or not Lorenzo is PVDS's illegitimate son.  If you believe Jossy's credibility, the you probably believe it.  If not, then you don't.  However, I do think that considering all that taken place in the last two years, both are likely and would not surprise me.

Howdy agin Monkeys!  We had a great rainstorm there for a while.  I love the rain.

Paulus & his women!  UGGGHHHH :shock:  :shock:  :shock:

Astrid

Anita

Karin

What could they possibly see or want with that man?

I saw a post here in the archives I think on  june 17th that said that PVDS had a affair that night and he wasnt home.

Klaas:

Can you check your email please :)

What are you saying - that you don't find bald, sweaty men with goofy expressions sexy?  :shock:  :lol:

Night Monks......I've been lurking for the most part....have seen some very intersing posts here today. I've  replied to a few...will do some research and get back to you  :?

Sweet Dreams, Destiny...Shango and Simian do have answers.....do you agree with me Buckshot?

Sure

That's a big NO,  especially when it's Paulus.

Nite, Destiny. Sleep well.

Nite Destiny

I hear Donna brushing her teeth, so I guess I'll talk to you monkeys tomorrow. :lol:

Sweet dreams everyone.

I did see them.  Thanks.  I was busy and neglected to say thanks.

Maybe. I doubt he would be the only one.

Nite BT nite Donna  :lol:

We don't seem too "lively" tonight.  I'm tired, too.  I'll talk to you all tomorrow.  Sleep well.

I agree.  He's just the only one who was willing to talk to us early in the case.

I think there were several trying to talk to us.  Some were totally unaware of all this corruption.  Believe it or not, I don't think it was as well known as we think.  The tourist part of Aruba was a well oiled machine.  Cainsos, parties, bars, drugs.  Then there is another side of Aruba.  The places where people live and work and don't know about all that stuff or they just look the other way too afraid to face reality.

Paradise Lost

azlady writes: "Bacchus, that first from out the purple grape crushed the sweet poison of misused wine. John Milton"

From the most under-studied literary genius of all time; t'was he who converted the Latin to English, and gave therefore the tongue we speak today --

A more relevant quote from the same masterpiece, and directed to the sloot which sullies these threads with their own eyes:

Thus spaketh Lucifer, Son of Light:
_________________________________

Which way I fly
is Hell;

Myself am Hell.

And in the lowest deep,
there is a lower deep.

Which still threatening to devour me opens wide,

To which the Hell I suffer,

Seems a Heav'n.

_____________________________________

Sleep well, ye sloot -- to know the eye of Lucifer watches you.  And the eternal and righteous torture ye have earned in an eternal chasm of suffering.  T'was Hat who said a generation of sloots would be damned by the actions of the lowly father, and now proven true.

Cast from the places of civil people, in god's likeness we gather.  But not you, sloot.

Ye are of Lucifer, and are condemned therefore to trod the outlier, away and apart from the places where civil people gather to host.

Twas Paulus' true calling to save the two and sacrfice the one, as the one is deviant and perverse.  He chose the path of evil, and has condemned those who follow.  The sloot of infamy.

SO let it be written, SO let it be done.

.

Nite AZLady

AMEN

BRAVO Hammer!

Yes, the Sloots will be forever marked by the actions of Paulus, the father and patriarch.  Three sons to follow in his footsteps, and this is the inheritance he leaves them.  They are, indeed, a damned clan.

:smt041      :smt041       :smt041

Awesome Hammer!  Awesome!

On that poetic note I will hug Nemo and see you guys later.

Nite Lala's

GOODNIGHT ALL!

g'night y'all.

Mr Sandman.....

I'm so tired. In more ways than one.

I am tired of all the foolishness... nearly every day, a new tidbit of nonsense from Aruba. Now we have a credible claim that yes indeed KJ and PVDS were having an affair.

That place is a society and a culture all to themselves. They don't know about morality and truth there.

My 2 cent's worth about Rob's info... I am headed to the Bunkey for a much-needed rest. Maybe tomorrow evening I'll stay in longer than I have tonight!

Rob - who is Grande? thanks.

This is in regard to the quote I brought over from ICB last night.  Interesting that rat face would confirm this information.

***************************
charlierat  Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:25 pm

There are dozens and dozens of missing American tourists on Aruba right now that nobody has ever even heard about. They missed their flights home and haven't been seen or heard from since. It happens all the time on Aruba (and the Bahamas and the Caribbean). Their families back home are all still wondering whatever became of them.

Good Morning.  

I am way behind but happy to be here.  I'll be back when I get caught up.
I just have to know what Easy's talking about....

Good Morning,

Easy are you suprised Jossy didnt say anything about his article in diario to Dana Pretzer?

Did Dana ask him about the article?  I didn't listen to the program.  Just read here.

Rat pill was just being the typical smarta$$ that he is, but that is an exact quote.

One of the Directors for the DOE Network made an interesting comment about missing person’s cases in Aruba.  I hope I can get more detail from her.

He didnt ask about the article..Just if anything was new in Aruba or about the case..The answer was no.

I don't think Jossy is that heavily involved with the daily operations of the Diario these days.  The next generation have taken over those tasks and they exercise editorial control over their many reporters.

I will see if he has had any updates about that article, if you like.

It looked like a important article dont ya think? It did say that De Witte would make a announcement this week so maybee we will hear something before saturday..Sure a update would be nice..Thx..

It did look like an announcement was impending.  Later I will see if I can find it and see if anymore has happened with that situation.  I believe Jossy is on vacation this week, but he usually keeps a laptop with him on his travels.  We will see.....

morning monkeys -- and sorry for the OT -- but I've very excited here :lol:  :lol:

Quick shout out to 2NJ

I'm lmao:-)

We're staying at same hotel:-)

I may be easy to find -- I am an aunt (and Godmother) of the groom. His mom is my sister. And my name is sharon. :lol:

Are we related?? lol.

(klaas -- I was hoping 2NJ would wear a monkey shirt with her avatar  :wink: )

klaas -- it's okay if you give 2NJ my email addy -- if you can find it. I will send you an email later today.

Sharon ~ that is so cool and fun!  That 6 degrees of separation (or whatever it is) sure does apply for you all.  :D  :D
Have a great time, and report back when y'all have time.  :lol:

Diario
http://www.diarioaruba.com/
Amigoe
http://www.amigoe.com/english/
BonDia
http://www.cspnv.com/
Solo di Pueblo
http://www.solodipueblo.com/
Aruba Today
http://www.arubatoday.com/
24ora
http://www.24ora.com/
Translator:
http://papiamentu.donamaro.nl

 :shock:

Hummm it seems as though Charlierat knows about a lot of murders that have taken place on that POS island.  Don't try and twist words now Charlie and say that's not what you meant because that's exactly what you meant.  You specifically mentioned Aruba.  People just don't disappear in thin air they were murdered.  Thanks for the clarification in this matter.

Does anyone stay in touch with Art Wood or Clint VanZandt? I found them to provide very insightful information when asked about their version of events, as unfolded that fateful evening.  They were PI's on the island, hired by Holloway/Twitty family, and were making good progress prior to Arubans clamming up.  Arubans eventually did clam up after the media frenzy began.

WOW

Hammer bursts into poem

Now I have seen it all !!!


 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

Just kidding, nice job Hammer

Blah  :lol: that Hammer is the best, isn't he? Go Hammer !!!

This is my morning rah-rah for our Peaches !
(http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k101/daisysistah/GIFS/smilies/cheerleader2.gif) (http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k101/daisysistah/GIFS/smilies/cheerleader2.gif) (http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k101/daisysistah/GIFS/smilies/cheerleader2.gif)

I hope Angie gets to feeling better, it seems she may have a pinched nerve now  :? and her hubby had his surgery and is at home on crutches, so we need a prayer for a speedy recovery !!

Perhaps he has a big deck.

Well,after Big Hammer all I can say is Bravo.Morning Monkeys.So many missing and dead on aruba,a safe island,eh.I think not>As a monkey,and a Tiger,Paulus does nothing for me. I think there were a series of rapes,with main show at the sloot house,and the final act at the rocks.they may have given her XTC,to stimulate he at some point.

You bad monkeys you, tag teaming on the rattiest man that way  :lol:  :lol:

FYI he said that I said he knows everything about Aruba but he was mistaken, my quote is so he can copy/cut/paste is as follows:

"Rattiest man thinks he knows everything about Aruba."

 :lol:  :lol:  :lol: he wishes

Good Morning Monkeys!  Working and Lurking---Ugh

Big Deck,who cares.I thought Kj had better taste,I hoped.

The rat speaks volumes ,for a change.

Hammer's prose gave me goosebumps ~ what a way with words.

None ~ thanks for the Angie update ~ was wondering last night.

I think he was being facetious and one thing we can be sure of, he will pontificate to correct that  :lol:

hey tcumom- I know San spoke with her last night, I didn't, so she might have further details. I think Angie is reading the lively, she just is trying not to use that hand for typing and busy keeping her hubby off those crutches.

Everyone have a great day, it's hi-ho time for me !!

NJSons_Mom & Sharon, I'll shoot you two a common email so you can connect, how exciting you will meet soon !!

Amen to the Prophet HAMMER

Destiny

Art Wood made contact with Jossy Mansur early in the investigation and Jossy encouraged him to come to Aruba.  Van Zandt was working on behalf of MSNBC.

*** O/T Cat Alert ***  :lol:

PROVIDENCE, R.I. - Oscar the cat seems to have an uncanny knack for predicting when nursing home patients are going to die, by curling up next to them during their final hours. His accuracy, observed in 25 cases, has led the staff to call family members once he has chosen someone. It usually means they have less than four hours to live.

"He doesn't make too many mistakes. He seems to understand when patients are about to die," said Dr. David Dosa in an interview. He describes the phenomenon in a poignant essay in Thursday's issue of the New England Journal of Medicine.

"Many family members take some solace from it. They appreciate the companionship that the cat provides for their dying loved one," said Dosa, a geriatrician and assistant professor of medicine at Brown University.

The 2-year-old feline was adopted as a kitten and grew up in a third-floor dementia unit at the Steere House Nursing and Rehabilitation Center. The facility treats people with Alzheimer's, Parkinson's disease and other illnesses.

After about six months, the staff noticed Oscar would make his own rounds, just like the doctors and nurses. He'd sniff and observe patients, then sit beside people who would wind up dying in a few hours.
Dosa said Oscar seems to take his work seriously and is generally aloof. "This is not a cat that's friendly to people," he said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070725/ap_on_fe_st/death_cat

Posted by Reality at BFN (thought I'd capture it before he deletes it):

Reality
Newbie

Posts: 7

    Re: LATEST INFORMATION (VIDEOS & DISCUSSION) - PART 2
« Reply #461 on: Today at 06:26:34 »  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For nearly 2 years now, both gagirl and myself have posted on this forum.
During that time both of us have been slandered and bashed in the open forum and even worse in the PM system.
Gagirl has even had her private information splashed over the internet, yet we both have returned to BFN as asked. We are here because we are asked to be here, not to cause problems but to offer our views and opinions to the discussion. To help find answers.

Have any of you ever seen any posts by either gagirl or myself that has bashed, slandered, belittled, accused either Beth, Natalee, Robin or Dave ? And I’m not talking about posts not made by ourselves.
No matter what is rumoured neither of us has ever spoke against the family.

These new statements, call them what you wish, that are now being said about cocaine usage, surely these should be discussed in a civilized manner in order to try and figure out if these things are indeed true, would this not be the prudent thing to do ?

Should  Robin Holloway see any of our posts and objected to the content of that post, both gagirl and myself would have no hesitation in removing the post that offended.

These latest rumours making the rounds about us being part of some Disinformation Group is the most ludicrous thing that has yet been posted on any of these forums and yes, these accusations have been and continue to be made here on BFN.
Time and again, Debbie has posted to address the post not the poster and yet these things are allowed to be posted whenever we attempt a discussion. If we do not respond we are avoiding the question, if we do respond we are derailing the thread. It's a no win situation, and one that could and should be corrected.

I do not include MIP6 in this as I’m sure he will speak for himself.


To answer your question Reality - YES

Thanks for bringing that stuff, Klaas.  Granny is really on it today.  

Always enjoy her analysis.  Shows common sense has not been lost forever in the world.

Reality should get real!  Doesn't he know that people have been collecting his posts for a long time now?  He can't delete them quickly enough. lol

Is this a new game he is playing?

Morning Fine Monkies  :sunny:

I'm somewhat caught up in the cage, since I'm working from home today, I just might to check in more often.

Good work from everyone last night....some interesting things to ponder over.

Destiny

Anyone know what the GLEN THODE MEMORANDUM is?

Case Number: BC363201
DEEPAK KALPOE VS PHILLIP C MCGRAW
Filing Date: 12/13/2006
Case Type: Defamation (Slander/Libel) (General Jurisdiction)
Status: Pending

Future Hearings
08/08/2007 at 08:30 am in department 69 at 111 North Hill Street, Los Angeles, CA 90012
Motion to Compel ((2)2) Case Management Conference;3) Motion to Dismiss;)

************************
07/18/2007 Objection Document (DEFTS' SUPPLEMENTAL OBJECTIONS TO THE GLEN THODE MEMORANDUM )
Filed by Attorney for Defendant/Respondent
 
07/18/2007 Objection Document (DEFTS' OBJECTIONS TO CERTAIN EVIDENCE IN PLTFS' SUPPLEMENTAL BRIEF RE ARUBAN LAW IN SUPPORT OF OPPO. TO DEFTS' MOITON TO COMPEL )
Filed by Attorney for Defendant/Respondent

07/18/2007 Brief (DEFTS' SUPPLEMENTAL BRIEF ON ARUBAN LAW IN SUPPORT OF DEFTS' MOTION TO COMPEL )
Filed by Attorney for Defendant/Respondent

I tend to agree tiger.  If she died from any kind of drug overdose WHY WOULD THERE BE BLOOD EVIDENCE in the car.

I also think that JVDS was also taking XTC and that is why he got out of control and at the very least beat her.

Don't really know....but here's a tidbit I gound on google FWIW...

McGraw - "New Filings as of June 7"
FYI ~

Posted by Atticus at BFN ~

Quote:
Objection to Glen Thode Memorandum attached to Kalpoe Response

McGraw asks the Court to disregard the memo of Glen Thode attached to Deepaks' Response because Thode does not qualify as an expert in criminal law procedure, he didn't state reasoning for his conclusion that Deepak could face prosecution for violation of Rule 45, and he didnt even give the text of Rule 45, and memo is unsigned undated and unverified.


McGraw Reply to Kalpoe Opposition to Motion to Compel

McGraw asks Court to dismiss Deepak's suit against him because he has refused to turn over documents requested in discovery and his Aruban attorney (Koch) submitted an affidavit saying that he would not release the docs even if Deepak requested them. The argument is that Deepak cant sue Phil for defamation and make all these allegations then turn around and refuse to provide the documents that Phil would need to prepare a defense. I think it's a great argument and Phil will likely prevail on this unless Deepak has a change of heart and decides to produce the documents.