Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 - 12/6/08

[SS]

OK...Dive capabilities...Saved it without the link...I think he was saying the Arubans didn't have the dive capabilities.

Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #743 3/14 -

Quote from: ala_gunslinger on March 18, 2008, 12:27:48 PM

Do you remember the name of the coast guard vessel?

Quote Kyle..
No I don't know it, but there's only one that patrold the waters to my knowledge. 

I inquired about the Dutch coast guard being on site during the dates in question when I returned to Aruba.  I showed why I was curious and it was solid enough to provoke a response from Adolpho Richardson or Hans Mos (I can't remember and am not sure because I got the response 2nd hand). The response was remarkable and simply: "we do not have dive capability".  This odd response raised a few questions in my mind.

I would hope it raised a few questions.   I, as a lowly internet *******, question the meaning of the phrase "dive capability" as regards any boat in Aruba (an island where diving is a popular pastime).  As an oceanographer, I'm sure OE was more than skeptical when told the Dutch Coast Guard didn't have "dive capabilities."  That's just more than ludicrous--it's like talking in another language.

AZ - we had assumed that the 11th or 12th was the day that Panter lifted the cage with a crane.  Caps has now told us that he saw the cage still in place during a recent dive.  What was the Coast Guard doing there those two days?

[klaasend]

[AZLady]

SS, I understood that the initial dive on Dec. 30 is the one performed by the people on the Persistence to get an up close look at the cage and its contents.  My understanding is that they looked but didn't touch or recover the cage contents.  However, the ROV pics lead one to believe there must be clearer and up close pics taken by these divers on the 30th, before the Aruban divers ever entered the water.  We haven't seen these pics.  Has anyone?

[Magnolia]

Kyle said that there were no dives between December 29th
and January 7th.......didn't he?

[Tamikosmom]

I believe the abilities of Klaas and some Monkeys are amazing in regards to enhancing the images of the cage and ... attempting to identify the content.  No offence intended but ... I can only assume that the FBI's capabilities are far superior.

This is why I contend that in the name of justice for Natalee Holloway ALL images taken by the ROV that were spared from destruction by the ALE should have been immediately turned over to the FBI ... not just a select few.

Also ... I contend there was a moral obligation that implied that the family should also have been provided with a complete set of these spared images prior to networks being privy to them.

Janet

[2NJSons_Mom]

I just noticed something....

The date on the pictures of the divers by the cage says December 30th.  The divers in that picture are probably not ALE, unless ALE was diving the day that Mos and his group visited the Persistence to view Kyle's computer.

Something isn't adding up.

Kyle claimed that the divers from ALE went down and cleaned the cage on January 7th.  Who is next to that cage on December 30th?  If the divers were our divers, why didn't they take some of the evidence?  The dates on these two pictures prove that there were actually two dives down to the cage.  This is not what we were told.

GREAT CATCH!!!

When did Tim Trahan give the thumbs down?  I thought that was the 30th...will have to look for it.

[AZLady]

From Blonde's thread The Search for Natalee Holloway

Re: Natalee Case Discussion #743 3/14 -
« Reply #740 on: March 18, 2008, 12:22:38 PM »
After the visual inspection on 30-Dec, the initial plan discussed by the project leads and Aruban police was for us (the team on board the Persistence) to be directly involved in the recovery of the trap.
<snip>
The talks continued after Jan-7th when the samples were collected.

<snip>
On the 11th and 12th, I noticed the Dutch coast guard vessel at or VERY near the trap site.
snip>
The vessel was on that spot for 42 minutes that day and about the same duration the next day.
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2705.msg366321#msg366321


The trap contents weren't sampled until the 7th of January.  Neither Tim Miller, Tim Trahan, or Dateline were on board during this time. 
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2705.msg366312#msg366312


oceanexploration
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #744 3/19 -
« Reply #201 on: March 19, 2008, 04:21:47 PM »

We had little option other than to have the Aruban dive division recover the samples and bring them back under their care."
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2721.msg366857#msg366857

Quote from: private eye on March 19, 2008, 02:54:38 PM
 I am curious what the circumstances were surrounding his leave from the boat he described during which the Dutch ship came close to the trap location.
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2721.msg366826#msg366826

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2705.msg366289#msg366289
Human remains were found


the items found inside the trap
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2705.msg366281#msg366281



I inquired about the Dutch coast guard being on site
 "we do not have dive capability
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2705.msg366325#msg366325

Video 3:  Jan 7th - ROV monitoring diver tactile inspection of the trap with sampling of items inside and outside of trap
<snip>
Neither Tim Miller nor the media were on board.
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2668.msg360047#msg360047


http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4159.340

[Dayhiker]

Buckshot,

Good advice. While I think the cage story is important, it's more important to go back to the beginning.

In fact, I think more focus should be on the van der sloot house.

Jan van der straaten "saw" the evidence, meaning, I believe, that he saw Natalee.

Karin Janssen and Jan van der straaten gave Paulus 10 days. This alone is so incredibly sickening.

IMO Frank they've got enough to arrest Van der Straten RIGHT NOW for obstruction of justice. There are two eye witness accounts of Jan saying he couldn't arrest his best friend's son. They need to haul Straten in and let him start spilling the beans and then the house of cards will start to crumble.

Dayhiker

If Beth and Jug had it all figured out within 72 hours ... Jan Van der Straaten most certainly did.

Janet

______

'Rita Cosby Live & Direct' for Dec. 5th
updated 6:18 a.m. PT, Tues., Dec. 6, 2005

TWITTY: ... Remember, within the first 24 hours, we knew who the suspects were. We knew the persons that Natalee were taken from Carlos and Charlie‘s. We knew the license plate of the gray Honda they placed her in. We knew the condition that Natalee was in. We knew the behavior or the conduct in which they engaged in with Natalee.

And then not only that, Jane, within 72 hours, we knew that their first story was totally fabricated, that within the first 72 hours, I faced a room of 12 -- at least 12 detectives, Aruban and Dutch detectives, and a lead detective, Dennis Jacobs (ph), and they knew after we reviewed video footage from the Holiday Inn casino lobby that my daughter had never been brought back to the Holiday Inn. They knew that those suspects were fabricating a story from day one.

<snipped>

TWITTY: Well, Jane, something that the family knew—and we have to keep reminding everyone—after 72 hours -- 72 hours—we knew definitively that these suspects were not telling the truth. We knew that my daughter had never been brought back to the Holiday Inn. Of course we were becoming frustrated. Who wouldn‘t, at this point? You know, we—and what was so unbelievable about this, is they knew this information and still chose to pursue the two security guards on June the 5th.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10348437/

Hell we all had it figured out. It's a shame the Dutch people on Aruba running the cover-up took everyone in the rest of the world to be so stupid. That is sheer arrogance to think you can do something so obvious and thumb your nose at the public while you do it.

[Hotshot]

I just noticed something....

The date on the pictures of the divers by the cage says December 30th.  The divers in that picture are probably not ALE, unless ALE was diving the day that Mos and his group visited the Persistence to view Kyle's computer.

Something isn't adding up.

Kyle claimed that the divers from ALE went down and cleaned the cage on January 7th.  Who is next to that cage on December 30th?  If the divers were our divers, why didn't they take some of the evidence?  The dates on these two pictures prove that there were actually two dives down to the cage.  This is not what we were told.

GREAT CATCH!!!

That was the dive on the 30th.....they only peered into the cage, and did the thumbs down.  Tim Trahan was one of the divers.  Who is to say nothing was taken??  We don't know, we were not there....  The dive on Jan 7th was done after TM, and Dave were lured off.  Yes we were told there was 2 dives..... That one, and the one where ALE took and bagged evidence. "that was filmed".

[wreck]

Kyle said that there were no dives between December 29th
and January 7th.......didn't he?

That is what I recall.

[klaasend]

I believe the abilities of Klaas and some Monkeys are amazing in regards to enhancing the images of the cage and ... attempting to identify the content.  No offence intended but ... I can only assume that the FBI's capabilities are far superior.

This is why I contend that in the name of justice for Natalee Holloway ALL images taken by the ROV that were spared from destruction by the ALE should have been immediately turned over to the FBI ... not just a select few.

Also ... I contend there was a moral obligation that implied that the family should also have been provided with a complete set of these spared images prior to networks being privy to them.

Janet

I"m absolutely certain the FBI's abilities are far superior or I'm in the wrong line of business 

[blah]

In the middle diving picture above, the diver is using a camera
it seems.

I can't really tell from the pic, but I would logically believe the divers had at least one camera with them.  After all, this was the initial dive in which they were to closer investigate the cage and contents.  This had to be documented, thus a camera had to be used.  Probably a high res underwater camera that could take quite detailed pics under those conditions.

Aruba does not have photograph capabilities 

[Anna]

I don't know,--- there just seems to be so much "hopping" right now. Something is is not quite right.
-- Joran is spouting off -- implicating himself (but short of murder)
-- The whole Persistence "veracity" issues.
-- Revelations about Tim Miller (and Dave) being lured off during the sea cage episode
-- The corresponding appearance of "caps" on the scene
-- Revelations of new "witnesses"
-- Rudy Croes blaming Van Der Stratten
-- Kelley back on Greta with requests for arrests
-- Kermit's revelations backed with pictures and e-mails (yet being castigated)

I just have a gut feeling Aruba is STILL trying to manipulate the outcome.
 

I completely agree, Wreck.  I don't know what exactly they are doing but I do know they are up to something.

[wreck]

I just noticed something....

The date on the pictures of the divers by the cage says December 30th.  The divers in that picture are probably not ALE, unless ALE was diving the day that Mos and his group visited the Persistence to view Kyle's computer.

Something isn't adding up.

Kyle claimed that the divers from ALE went down and cleaned the cage on January 7th.  Who is next to that cage on December 30th?  If the divers were our divers, why didn't they take some of the evidence?  The dates on these two pictures prove that there were actually two dives down to the cage.  This is not what we were told.

GREAT CATCH!!!

That was the dive on the 30th.....they only peered into the cage, and did the thumbs down.  Tim Trahan was one of the divers.  Who is to say nothing was taken??  We don't know, we were not there....  The dive on Jan 7th was done after TM, and Dave were lured off.  Yes we were told there was 2 dives..... That one, and the one where ALE took and bagged evidence. "that was filmed".

Could be -- what was the date of the dive shown on "Dateline" with the "thumbs down"?

[SS]

SS, I understood that the initial dive on Dec. 30 is the one performed by the people on the Persistence to get an up close look at the cage and its contents.  My understanding is that they looked but didn't touch or recover the cage contents.  However, the ROV pics lead one to believe there must be clearer and up close pics taken by these divers on the 30th, before the Aruban divers ever entered the water.  We haven't seen these pics.  Has anyone?

AZ - there are three dates on the pictures.  Some were taken on December 29th, some on the 30th, and the ones with the ziplocks on the 7th.  It appears that there were multiple dives down to the cage.  I'm not sure exactly how the ROV works, but I do believe that it is remote control and connect to a cable.  I don't think they needed a diver to hold a camera because the ROV has a camera built in and it has a bright search light.  This is why ALE weren't aware that they were being filmed.  The ROV might have been sent down on the 29th by itself for upclose pictures.  With the date of the 30th on the photograph of divers, we now have proof that there was more than one dive made to the cage.  Who has the evidence?

[AZLady]

I just noticed something....

The date on the pictures of the divers by the cage says December 30th.  The divers in that picture are probably not ALE, unless ALE was diving the day that Mos and his group visited the Persistence to view Kyle's computer.

Something isn't adding up.

Kyle claimed that the divers from ALE went down and cleaned the cage on January 7th.  Who is next to that cage on December 30th?  If the divers were our divers, why didn't they take some of the evidence?  The dates on these two pictures prove that there were actually two dives down to the cage.  This is not what we were told.

GREAT CATCH!!!

That was the dive on the 30th.....they only peered into the cage, and did the thumbs down.  Tim Trahan was one of the divers.  Who is to say nothing was taken??  We don't know, we were not there....  The dive on Jan 7th was done after TM, and Dave were lured off.  Yes we were told there was 2 dives..... That one, and the one where ALE took and bagged evidence. "that was filmed".

In any scientific exploration, cameras and other equipment are used to capture the visual images.  The visual inspection is not left entirely to the subjective observation of a diver.  Logic tells me there had to be close up and high res pictures taken by the divers on the 30th when they first inspected the cage.  A search of this magnitude with this technology is not going to leave the initial visual inspection of the #1 target to a diver's eyesight and observation.  There are other pictures taken of the cage on the 30th.  I'm certain of it.  They didn't go this far to stop when they reached their goal and not document it on film.

[2NJSons_Mom]

=snipped-

On Dec. 30, off the coast of Aruba, divers from the Aruban police force and the research vessel Persistence were about to make a crucial dive on a promising target in the search for Natalee Holloway.

The researchers had discovered a fish trap about 90 feet below the surface in almost the exact spot search expert Tim Miller had theorized Natalee’s body might be.

Team leader Tim Trahan suited up to join the Aruban police divers. As Tim Miller wished him well, the divers hit the water and the ROV was sent down to capture what would happen for everyone watching on board.

-snipped-

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/5/

[Kermit]

Kermit says Natalee remains found in cage.
Others, who claim to have spoken to family, say that Natalee remains not found in cage.

Question: Who is right?
(Remember: Kermit never lies..., Is the family lying? Why?)

second time for this post. Not sure what the point or the question really is?

Not sure either Lisa...Good Morning...

My point from the previous thread was...

Please read the posts that Kermit has quoted "In Context"

Sure Caps mentioned 3 ponds, maybe more...he didn't say Natalee was in any of them from what I can recall.

My point is simple.

Everyone, for the most part, concedes that Kermit is telling the truth. Kermit has asserted that remains of NH were found in the cage.

Other posters acknowledge speaking to the family of NH, as it pertains to Kermits assertions, and report back that they (the family) believe Kermit's assertions to be off base, and out in left field.

My point is: How can they both be right? Remains of NH were either found in the cage or they were not. Plain and simple.

If there are reasons beyond me for concealing the truth of the cage search, then shame on me. Was only asking a question, which seemed logical to me.

That was a fair question. I have to go back to CBB's great post. She was POSITIVE based on evidence that the blonde hair was Natalee's. I have always said I truly believe Kermit 110% believes that Natalee was found. Was she? We don't know for sure...no one can say 100% for sure yes or no...we weren't there. I can say 100% sure, Natalee's family does not have her remains..and Natalee's family does not BELIEVE...because they were not there either..but they do not believe she was found in that cage.

#43 on: Today at 10:31:10 AM   ldstlou
I am done. When in the heck did I say NOT to focus on something???!!! Let me reiterate!!!! kermit is saying in one breath the family has Natalee's body and is hiding that fact from the world. In another breath that the ALE has her body and Kyle was complicit in that cover up. I am saying BULLSHIT to both!!!! Why am I saying bullshit? Because I asked Jug and gave you his answer...and you know I asked him Klaas. Now the references that I am a liar...and the family is lying...and I simply STATING!!!! what Jug asked me to convey to you all this morning...to pray and focus on van der straaten!!! I never once said what to discuss or not to discuss...with all due respect
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4209.40


Let me help you understand so that you do not mis-interpret what I have said to Jug or anyone else.

Beth was told between Christmas and New Years eve they found something and she thought it was going to be Natalee.
This was Tim Miller who saw a skull.
He called and the family. THEN the VISUAL ONLY DIVE was said to be not Natalee.
Later, Tim was ushered off the boat by John Silvetti.
And ARUBA ONLY divers went down on JANUARY 7th. The ROV was filming them.
They had no idea that these photos existed. Jug didn't know. Beth didn't know. Dave didn't know. Tim Miller didn't know.

1. I never, ever said that the family has Natalee's body

2. Klye stated: " We're being fed misinformation to keep us searching and out of their way while they cover their asses, destroy evidence, cover their tracks, and keep us out at sea and away from the trap."

3. Kyle stated: "neither Dave, Robin, or Beth has seen any of the ROV footage aside from what was broadcasted on Dateline or the pictures leaked from the FBI to Dave (and Robin H.). Beth has seen nothing in my knowledge."

4. Kyle stated: "John is not a believer in the trap. He took ALE's word as gospel that it wasn't case related, yet never studied the videos or bothered to inquire further. He had plans on doing business with Aruba and in S. America and he didn't want to hurt any feelings by talks hinting at lack of complete trust and friendship."


5. Now you may or may not trust, believe, or interpret the information. But, I am going to expose more soon.

[AZLady]

The pics taken by the ROV on the 29th don't show any divers, do they?  I didn't think i saw divers then.  I thought the ROV was surveying and photographing the cage on the 29th.  Then, on the 30th two Aruban divers and Tim Trahan went down for a closer investigation.  I have to believe they also photographed what they saw.  It doesn't make sense for them not to do so.

[MumInOhio]

This is what I got going through all of Kyle's stuff...TM noticed an error and I can't bring it over, but it was 12/30 for the Thumb's down.


http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4145.80

Re: The Search for Natalee Holloway Monday, November 26, 2007
« Reply #85 on: November 28, 2008, 04:03:24 PM »
December 2007
12/15/2007-Persistence arrived Aruba
12/18/2008-Persistence began search
12/24/2007-Located trap
12/25/2007-Tim Miller-Looks like a skull-Dateline video
12/26/2007-Persistence calibrations completed
12/29/2007-Dive Series of Persistence
12/29/2008-Dives-Thumbs Down per Dateline video
12/30/2008-Dives-Thumbs Down? Per transcript. Mos etc on board
12/31/2007-Multiple Dives