Madeleine McCann Missing-Praia Da Luz, Portugal 3/05/07 #1

[Mere]

Re DNA found in hotel room....I can promise you that hotel rooms contain much DNA that does not belong to the current occupants.  In a recent stay in four hotels, I could almost "see" the DNA...which included cigarette butts in an ashtray on a closet shelf...fingerprints on the coffee maker and the hair dryer...and forget using the glasses that I know were just rinsed and put back....I could go on, but I do not want to nauseate you.  Before you ask, the hotels are not Motel 6 or that category.

[Rob]

have you guys seen this photo?

[Rob]

[Mere]

Who is the person in the photo Rob?

[Rob]

Who is the person in the photo Rob?

Mere, no one knows... those two heads you see are Maddy and one of the twins. This person is looking at them directly. Also, he is on the playground and dressed very uncomfortably for a hot day in Portugal. He appears to be out of place.

[MuffyBee]

 There are some good photographs in this article and it has some bits of information I hadn't read yet elsewhere:

Kate McCann 'fears she will be charged today' as police push for confession
08.09.07
snipped ~
Dozens of British detectives have been drafted into the inquiry in recent weeks. Sources said 55 officers were now working on the case.

It is believed they are carrying out urgent inquiries on behalf of the Portuguese police into the background of the McCanns.

It can also be revealed that Portuguese police have been deliberately leaking details of their inquiry to local media as part of an investigative strategy to put more pressure on the McCanns in recent weeks.

It has never been established when Madeleine was last seen in public and it may even be the case that she was alone with her family from earlier than 5pm.

Madeleine was photographed at the poolside that day at 2.29pm but there is no evidence to suggest she was seen in public after that.

If a fatal accident had occurred some time that day, the McCanns could have had more than three hours to hide or move the body and to plan their actions.

http://tinyurl.com/37uhz3

[AZSunny]

If a fatal accident had occurred some time that day, the McCanns could have had more than three hours to hide or move the body and to plan their actions.



and then casually show up at a restaurant and join friends for dinner, and appear normal??  No way! Impossible!! 

[greeneyedlady]

Sorry if this has already been posted, saw this link @ RU and thought it was interesting;

Madeleine McCann: The evidence
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6984836.stm

[Tamikosmom]

Sunny ... according to the McCann's friend the interrogators told Kate that her daughter's DNA was found in the vehicle ... the vehicle that was rented 25 days following Maddie's disappearance.  How do think that is possible?

Janet


From The Sunday Times
September 9, 2007
Police video clue to Madeleine mystery

Jon Corner, a friend of the family, said: "They kept coming back to the hire car and kept showing Kate the video of sniffer dogs. They also told her that Madeleine's DNA was found in the car."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article2414735.ece

[Tamikosmom]

Sunny ... according to the McCann's friend the interrogators told Kate that her daughter's DNA was found in the vehicle ... the vehicle that was rented 25 days following Maddie's disappearance.  How do think that is possible?

Janet


From The Sunday Times
September 9, 2007
Police video clue to Madeleine mystery

Jon Corner, a friend of the family, said: "They kept coming back to the hire car and kept showing Kate the video of sniffer dogs. They also told her that Madeleine's DNA was found in the car."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article2414735.ece

Parents of Missing British Girl Madeleine McCann Want to Leave Portugal
Saturday, September 08, 2007


Until Friday, suspicion had centered on Robert Murat, a British man who lived near the hotel from which Madeleine disappeared, and who was the only formal suspect.

But police said new forensic tests done on evidence gathered months after the girl vanished found traces of blood in the couple's car, said Justine McGuinness, a spokeswoman for the family.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,296150,00.html

[Rob]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article2414735.ece

September 9, 2007

Police video clue to Madeleine mystery

PORTUGUESE police tried to pressurise Kate McCann into admitting killing her daughter Madeleine by repeatedly showing her video footage of sniffer dogs allegedly finding the scent of a body in the family's hire car.

During 16 hours of interrogation she was shown the footage of the dogs clambering over the Renault ScŽnic car in the hope that she would break down and confess. She was yesterday said to be distraught and exhausted by the ordeal.

The dogs' reaction was a key reason why the police suspect her of killing Madeleine. Officers told Kate they had found her daughter's DNA in the car even though it was hired three weeks after her disappearance.

Kate and her husband Gerry are said to be mortified that the investigation team — with whom they have co-operated throughout — have apparently turned against them. "We are being absolutely stitched up," Gerry told a friend. "We are completely f*****. We should have seen this coming weeks ago and gone back to Britain."
Madeleine: one fact, many lies, endless grief

It’s now 124 days since Madeleine McCann disappeared. Penny Wark charts a story that became global, lurid and often invented

Police hoped to force a confession from Kate after she was formally declared a suspect on Friday and subjected to further questioning.

Jon Corner, a friend of the family, said: "They kept coming back to the hire car and kept showing Kate the video of sniffer dogs. They also told her that Madeleine's DNA was found in the car."

Another friend said: "The suggestion being put to Kate was that if she had somehow killed Madeleine in an accident, then used a hire car to dispose of the body three weeks later, she should confess and the judge would look at it in a lenient light and offer three to four years in jail. It's absolute nonsense."

As it emerged that the family are considering approaching David Miliband, the foreign secretary, Portuguese detectives last night faced questions about the value of the evidence which they hoped would force Kate to break down. The family claim it is ambiguous and flawed.

They were supported by British forensic scientists who have also been surprised by aspects of the investigation. They said that the rental car — still in the possession of the McCanns — would have been automatically impounded as a central piece of evidence if it was a British police inquiry. The family point out that Kate has carried Cuddle Cat, Madeleine's soft toy, since her disappearance, which could explain the presence of her DNA in the rental car. British forensic experts also said that footage of agitated dogs would be of limited value in the law courts.

A Leicestershire police official is said to have told Gerry that the sniffer dog alone was not sufficient to consider someone a suspect, but was usually used as a basis for further intelligence gathering.

The Portuguese investigation team will face severe criticism from the McCanns' family and friends if it stakes its case solely on its forensic work. "The crime scene was completely desecrated after Madeleine's disappearance," said Philomena McCann, Gerry's sister.

"Literally hundreds of people went in that apartment after Madeleine was abducted. It was pandemonium. It was at least two days before any sort of fingerprinting was done."

The police are unlikely to change the focus of their investigation. Portuguese newspapers were yesterday reporting that Kate was suspected of homicide, negligence and "preventing the corpse from being found". According to the reports, one police theory is that Kate accidentally gave Madeleine a fatal dose of sedatives. It has been strenuously denied by representatives of the McCanns that they gave any of their children sedatives. There was also speculation that Kate could face charges within a few days. Despite the threat of an impending prosecution, the McCanns are now anxious to return home. A court could put restrictions on their movements and the couple have said they will not leave without consulting the police.

"They really miss Madeleine and they really want everyone to concentrate on the fact that she is still missing," said a friend. "They feel that after the events of the past few days no one is carrying on with the search." The McCanns have been liaising with the Foreign Office in the hope that Miliband would be able to obtain more information on the state of the police inquiry.

Miliband said yesterday: "Firstly we must remember above all else that this is about a missing girl. Secondly, obviously we have been and will continue to give extensive consular support to the family. And thirdly, in respect of the independent judicial process, we must let that take its course."

The declaration of the couple as suspects will raise questions about the future care of the two-year-old twins if they are charged. It is understood that other members of the family would act as guardians if the authorities moved to take custody of the twins.

Kate and Gerry were interviewed by police on Thursday and Friday after detectives are thought to have obtained the results of tests conducted by

the Forensic Science Service in Britain. It is understood that Kate faced questions over whether she had given her daughter sedatives, why Madeleine's DNA was found on her clothing and in the rental car and why sniffer dogs found the scent of a body on her clothes and in the rental car.

Hugh White, a Home Office pathologist, said he could not understand why the car was held by the police for just two days. "In this country the car would have been stripped down into tiny pieces and the forensics team would be crawling all over it," he said. Other forensic scientists said the information revealed so far was far from conclusive. Keith Borer, a retired forensic scientist, said: "What they seem to have found makes good questions for a police interview, but evidentially it seems pretty weak."

[Rob]

I notice that the above article does indicate that the police have made the McCanns suspects based on a dog.

Is it possible that this rented car contained a corpse at one point, and it was not Madeleine?

Is it possible that the cadaver dog is faulty and not reliable?

I still don't understand how that car possessed the DNA of Madeleine 25 days after she disappeared.

[Rob]

This was posted on the Mirror forum without a link. But I do remember the article. It is accurate.

From the Daily Mail 15 August 2007.



Meanwhile a British holidaymaker whose hire car was seized by police hunting for Madeleine McCann yesterday angrily denied any involvement in the case.

Jim Gorrod, 34, a solicitor from Exeter, was on holiday in Praia da Luz on the Algarve with his pregnant wife Charlotte and toddler son when the four-year-old went missing.

The Gorrods, who knew one of the couples on holiday with the McCanns, joined the search for Madeleine in the hours following her disappearance in May.

But three months later, the solicitor found himself under investigation and his Portuguese rental car being impounded for examination.

This led to speculation that a 'mystery' Briton might be linked to Madeleine's disappearance.

But Mrs Gorrod described the speculation as "ridiculous" and said detectives had cleared them of any involvement.

Her husband is said to have come under suspicion at a car hire office when he returned his vehicle two days after Madeleine went missing.

It is understood staff at the Sixt car hire office at Faro Airport thought it odd that a man on his own was returning a car with a rented baby seat.

The staff's concerns were farcical and could easily have been checked out, say the couple, because Mr Gorrod had dropped his family and luggage at the entrance to the busy airport before returning the car.

But the hire firm reported its concerns to police and waited to be contacted.

Astonishingly, it took three months for police to ask for the blue Opel Corsa, which had been rented out to at least six more customers since then, to be examined.

Yesterday, Mr Gorrod was revealed to be the mystery British driver being sought for questioning by the Policia Judiciaria.

He immediately issued a statementproclaiming his innocence and insisted a British detective had told him he had 'nothing to worry about'.

He said: "A British police officer directly liaising with the Portuguese investigation team recently contacted me to eliminate the vehicle I hired for the holiday.

"The car has been identified and I have been told by the British police officer that he has no plans to interview me or my family.

"We are of course deeply saddened by Madeline's disappearance and hope for her safe return."

Mr and Mrs Gorrod already knew two of the McCann group, Dr Russell O'Brien and his partner Jane Tanner because they live two streets away in Exeter and have a child of the same age.

But the Gorrods said they did not know they would be in the same resort and they did not travel with the Mark Warner holiday company or stay at the Ocean Club apartments.

During the week in Praia da Luz, they are said to have 'occasionally' bumped into their friends but never met Gerry and Kate McCann.

When Madeleine went missing, James Gorrod joined other holidaymakers in helping search for the child before taking his family home to Devon.

Then a week ago, during a review of the case by British detectives, the family's hire car was finally seized and examined by Portuguese police.

[klaasend]

I notice that the above article does indicate that the police have made the McCanns suspects based on a dog.

Is it possible that this rented car contained a corpse at one point, and it was not Madeleine?

Is it possible that the cadaver dog is faulty and not reliable?

I still don't understand how that car possessed the DNA of Madeleine 25 days after she disappeared.

I suppose if somone had dried blood on their shoe it could fall off into the vehicle?  Or dried blood on anything that was put into the car.  It could be just a flake of blood.

[Tamikosmom]

I notice that the above article does indicate that the police have made the McCanns suspects based on a dog.

Is it possible that this rented car contained a corpse at one point, and it was not Madeleine?

Is it possible that the cadaver dog is faulty and not reliable?

I still don't understand how that car possessed the DNA of Madeleine 25 days after she disappeared.

I suppose if somone had dried blood on their shoe it could fall off into the vehicle?  Or dried blood on anything that was put into the car.  It could be just a flake of blood.

Klaas ... according to the spokesperson for the MacCanns ... Kate was told by interrogators that it was "Maddie's blood" that was detected in the vehicle that was rented 25 days following her disappearance.  How is that possible unless ...

Janet

++++++++++++++++++==


Parents of Missing British Girl Madeleine McCann Want to Leave Portugal
Saturday, September 08, 2007

Until Friday, suspicion had centered on Robert Murat, a British man who lived near the hotel from which Madeleine disappeared, and who was the only formal suspect.

But police said new forensic tests done on evidence gathered months after the girl vanished found traces of blood in the couple's car, said Justine McGuinness, a spokeswoman for the family.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,296150,00.html


By Charles Miranda in London
September 09, 2007 12:00am

Police also suggested the toddler may have accidentally broken her neck. The couple, police claim, then hid their daughter's body for 25 days, before using a hired Renault Scenic car to dispose of the body somewhere.
http://www.news.com.au/mercury/story/0,22884,22379573-923,00.html

[vms]

McCanns 'to face judge in days over Maddy's death'
From IAN GALLAGHER and DANIEL BOFFEY
 
Last updated at 23:11pm on 8th September 2007


The parents of Madeleine McCann will this week face a judge who has the power to charge them in connection with the death of their daughter, detectives told journalists last night.


Portuguese police are expecting to receive new forensic evidence, gathered from the McCanns' holiday apartment-either tomorrow or Tuesday which they believe will clinch their case against the couple.

But the fact that detectives were claiming another potential breakthrough will lead to fresh concern in the McCann camp that the police are increasing the pressure on Kate and Gerry McCann to make a confession.

Once new evidence has been received, police sources say the McCanns could be ordered to go before the court of examining magistrate Jose Cunha de Magalhaes e Meneses on either Wednesday or Thursday.


However, sources close to the family believe the couple, who are not subject to any bail restrictions, are planning to return to England in the next few days - although they may now be prevented from doing so by the Portuguese authorities.

It became clear last night that although Portuguese police are confident they have an adequate case, based on DNA samples, serious doubts are emerging about the evidence.

Sources close to the British police drafted into the inquiry have told this newspaper that the new forensic evidence relating to the McCanns' holiday apartment is "far from conclusive".

In particular they fear that the failure by police to preserve the crime scene properly in the crucial hours following the three-year-old's disappearance has rendered it of little value.

A question mark has also been placed against the first tranche of test results, which led to the allegation that blood was found in the boot of the couple's Renault Scenic hire car.

It is simply not certain, in fact, that it was blood.

The Mail on Sunday understands that the sample is so minute that it has been categorised by forensic scientists in Birmingham as "low copy number DNA" and, again, unlikely to be of much value as evidence.

And while British police accept that the new test results, expected to reach Portugal in the next two days may, at a stretch, point to Madeleine having died in her holiday apartment, no great emphasis should be placed upon it.

A British police source said: "Our labs have discovered forensic evidence in the apartment which could suggest that Madeleine died there.

"However the scene of crime was so badly contaminated that the evidence found there is not substantial enough to support a prosecution.

"So the main theory being pursued by British police is that she was abducted."

Despite the British misgivings, Portuguese police, who are understood to be aware of the main thrust of the new results, appear to be ignoring the warnings attached to the forensic evidence that has been passed on to them.

Sources say they are confident that their new evidence will be substantial enough to bring formal charges against the couple.

If anyone is arrested, the police will have 72 hours in which to further interrogate them before handing them over to the examining magistrate, or "procurador".

He will then also interrogate them, behind closed doors, before deciding whether they should be held in custody, given bail or released without charge.

If a suspect is ordered to be detained in prison they can be held for up to two years before a trial.


The main plank of the police case so far is that they believe Mrs McCann, 39, accidentally gave Madeleine a fatal overdose of sedative and then conspired with her husband in an incredible cover-up.

There are growing fears, however, that they are pursuing a cynical strategy of using the forensic evidence, scant as it may be, to force - or possibly even trick - the couple into confessing.

They are said to be steadily increasing the pressure on the McCanns, including making leaks to the Portuguese media.

It was reported yesterday in one Portuguese newspaper that detectives are working on the theory that Mrs McCann may have been taking a sedative herself because she is "mentally unbalanced" --and somehow gave a dose to her threeyearold daughter by mistake.


Another said Mr McCann admitted during his interview that he, not his wife, administered the lethal dose.

And in what was seen by many as a further example of the high-stakes "game" the police are playing, several Portuguese newspapers attached great significance to Mrs McCann's refusal to answer accusations about the "biological substances" found in the hire car.

According to several reports there were many other questions she refused to answer, although sources close to the family say her silence would have been on the advice of her lawyers.

In contrast, Mr McCann is said to have been more forthcoming during his interview.

Mrs McCann has been offered a plea bargain: confess to accidentally killing Madeleine in return for a light sentence, possibly as little as two years.

Friends spoke yesterday at the couple's disgust at the offer - and continued to maintain that the McCanns have never given their children sedatives.

The couple stood up "robustly" to the intense police questioning and neither of them, according to one friend, "have given the Portuguese police the satisfaction of crying in front of them".

However Mrs McCann was less buoyant in the hours before her interviews on Thursday and Friday.

The Mail on Sunday has learned that she made a tearful goodbye to her two-year-old twins Sean and Amelie, fearing that she may be put immediately into custody.

Because of their suspect status, the McCanns are further limited about what they can say about the case.

As with Robert Murat, the 33-year-old British expat who was previously the only official suspect, they cannot now publicly defend themselves, something said to be causing them frustration.

Friends of the couple who have previously spoken on their behalf are similarly restricted, and have declined to discuss Mr McCann's interview.

Despite their anger and bewilderment at recent developments, the McCanns are said to be striving to remain strong for the twins.

A friend refused to respond to a suggestion yesterday that the twins may now be put into the hands of authorities in Portugal or the UK.

The McCanns had a family breakfast yesterday after a visit from Susan Hubbard, the wife of the Anglican vicar in Praia da Luz.

Afterwards, Mrs McCann turned to a friend and said plaintively: "I just want to go home with Madeleine."

Friends said recent events have drawn the couple closer together.

"There is a incredible tenderness between them, they have been very tactile, asking frequently if the other is all right," said one.

The couple had planned to attend an service in Praia last night, but decided against it because of the media interest.

Instead they held prayers at the villa they have continued to rent in the town.

"One thing that deeply concerns them is that because of what has happened in the past few days, no one is now searching for Madeleine," said a friend.

Robert Murat's status as an official suspect has still not been lifted. Yesterday a friend said he sympathised with the McCanns because "he knows what it is like to be under this level of suspicion".

"He can't begin to imagine how terrible it must be to have all that on top of the agony of losing their daughter.

"We all just want Madeleine to be found."

Link

[Rob]

Janet- I still just do not get it. I can not mentally wrap my mind around this aspect.

The McCanns with half of Portugal observing them, decide to rent a car, drive to the location where the body was so well hidden for 25 days that no one could find it, retrieve the body and then dispose of the body in such a way that it is still unaccounted for.

If this is the theory, I can not understand how and why the police are not laughing at themselves. This goes beyond the realm of unbelievability for me.

[vms]

'Fatal flaw' over test that found DNA in parents' hire car
By JASON LEWIS
 
Last updated at 22:29pm on 8th September 2007

The alleged "smoking gun" evidence used to implicate Madeleine's parents in her killing could be fatally flawed, experts said last night.


British forensic scientists identified Madeleine's DNA in a car hired by her parents five weeks after her disappearance and this unexplained evidence has been used to imply that the little girl or her body must have been moved by the McCanns weeks after her alleged abduction.


But research papers written by the scientists involved in the case suggest that there could easily be an innocent explanation for the minute traces found in the car.

The Mail on Sunday understands that the DNA particles in the vehicle were uncovered using an advanced technique pioneered by the UK Forensic Science Services (FSS) laboratories in Birmingham.

The so-called "low copy number DNA" evidence allows for minuscule biological samples to be analysed to detect very low quantities of DNA --even as little as a single cell.

This sort of evidence has proved crucial in rape and murder cases, particularly where the suspect has no other connection to his or her victim.

But a scientific paper on the technique written by six leading FSS scientists reveals that while the tiny DNA samples can be positively identified, there is no way of knowing how the particles are deposited.

The scientists warn that where this DNA is being used in a trial, "specific caveats are written into court statements" and they point out that it is not possible to make conclusions about how the tiny traces of DNA are deposited.

They also warn that there is a danger that the DNA can be moved from one individual to another and then on to an object.

Experiments showed this transfer could take place weeks or months and, in the case of one item tested, a glove, two years later.

For the McCanns, this leaves open the possibility that Madeleine's DNA was transferred by them or by an item impregnated with her cells, like an item of clothing or her cuddly toy bunny, which Kate McCann has carried constantly since her daughter's disappearance.

The revelation once again puts the spotlight on dangers of overreliance on forensic evidence which has led to a string of miscarriages of justice in the UK and disquiet about the safety of convictions in other high-profile cases.

Recently there have been questions about the guilt of Barry George, serving life for killing the TV presenter Jill Dando, because of doubts over the forensic evidence in the case.

He has been given leave to appeal after a review of the case said "too much significance" was placed on a single, tiny speck of shotgun residue - invisible to the naked eye - found in George's coat, and that there is a "real possibility" his conviction could be quashed.

The House of Commons called for more scepticism about scientific evidence in court after paediatrician Sir Roy Meadows was discredited over evidence he gave in a number of cases involving baby deaths.

His "Meadow's law" on cot deaths "that one in a family is a tragedy, two is suspicious and three is murder" formed part of the case against Angela Cannings, who was wrongly convicted of killing her two sons.

But perhaps the most high-profile case where forensic science has been called into question is the conviction of six men for the Birmingham pub bombings in 1974.

They spent 16 years in prison after being wrongly convicted of the murder of 21 people but were released after it was discovered that the forensic evidence used to convict them, which suggested they had handled explosives, was unreliable and gave a false positive result when people touched household items such as playing cards.

Link

[Tamikosmom]

Janet- I still just do not get it. I can not mentally wrap my mind around this aspect.

The McCanns with half of Portugal observing them, decide to rent a car, drive to the location where the body was so well hidden for 25 days that no one could find it, retrieve the body and then dispose of the body in such a way that it is still unaccounted for.

If this is the theory, I can not understand how and why the police are not laughing at themselves. This goes beyond the realm of unbelievability for me.

Rob ... the McCanns rented this vehicle 25 days following the disappearance of Maddie and ... the Portugese authorities retrieved this vehicle only one month ago and ... requested the British forensic experts to check it out.  This tells me that something/someone tipped them off.

Rob ... how would you explain Maddie's blood found in a vehicle that was rented 25 days after her disappearance?  Keep in mind ... Maddie is missing.  This implies that the "powers that be" in the Portugese investigation are not in a position to obtain and plant this DNA.

Janet

[robots]

Janet- I still just do not get it. I can not mentally wrap my mind around this aspect.

The McCanns with half of Portugal observing them, decide to rent a car, drive to the location where the body was so well hidden for 25 days that no one could find it, retrieve the body and then dispose of the body in such a way that it is still unaccounted for.

If this is the theory, I can not understand how and why the police are not laughing at themselves. This goes beyond the realm of unbelievability for me.

Rob ... the McCanns rented this vehicle 25 days following the disappearance of Maddie and ... the Portugese authorities retrieved this vehicle only one month ago and ... requested the British forensic experts to check it out.  This tells me that something/someone tipped them off.

Rob ... how would you explain Maddie's blood found in a vehicle that was rented 25 days after her disappearance?  Keep in mind ... Maddie is missing.  This implies that the "powers that be" in the Portugese investigation are not in a position to obtain and plant this DNA.

Janet

thats what i want to know also