Natalee Case Discussion #783 12/6/08 - 12/8/08

[texasmom]

Hello everyone! I've been a board lurker for over a year now, and I've followed this case from the very beginning.  So many of you are SO intelligent, and I can't believe all the information you guys have been able to retrieve over the years. It's amazing that now, after all of these years, so many facts that we've all known all along are just starting to come out now. Absolutely unbelievable and ridiculous.
 
Anyway, the main reason I began following this story was because I had known Joran, not very well, but we met while I was on vacation in Aruba, October of 04. I was 16 at the time, he claimed to be 18. I had gone with my parents and 2 friends of mine (female friends). Nothing serious went on, we met him by the pool of our hotel (he was with 1 male friend the first time we met them) and after that he kept coming by the hotel for the remainder of our stay there and would hang out with us. The only thing he had really lied about was his age, the rest seemed to be pretty truthful (for example, he did tell us he lived in Aruba, he didn't lie about that). But even then, we did find something a little bit strange about him. We kept referring to him as the weird kid, because of the way he acted. He spent a lot of time talking about alcohol and pot (I live in NY, so for pot to be spoken about so openly was strange). He asked us quite a few times if we wanted to smoke with him, but we told him no, he seemed to respect that.
 
The day we were leaving, we exchanged screen names to "keep in touch." I was the only one out of my friends who kept in contact with him, but not too often. He was my online "poker buddy." Went on web cam a couple of times. After a while he started trying to talk dirty, but I shot that down real quick. The last time we spoke on the messenger before Natalee's disappearance was April 05.. So you'd imagine my surprise when in May, I heard he was a suspect in her disappearance. It definitely gave me the chills, knowing this was a person I hung out with only 7 months before. I couldn't believe at first that he was responsible, because like I said, besides his constant talk of drugs/alcohol, he wasn't really disrespectful to any of us. He knew we were all too young to go to the clubs/bars so he never really pressed that issue.. Like I said, the only thing he tried to do was get us to smoke pot with him, but we declined every time.
 
I was shocked to learn that he had lied to us about his age, what was the point? If he was 17 in May 05, that would mean he would of been the same age as us, so why lie? The more and more I heard about the story, the more and more I realized he was guilty. We spoke on messenger one more time after he was named a prime suspect. I had asked him why he lied about his age, he said he was trying to impress us and also that he could get in trouble for drinking underage so he had to lie to everyone he met about his age. I then had asked him if it was true, what he did. He made a strange comment about the truth coming out someday. At the time, I copied the entire conversation and sent it to Dave. I knew it really wouldn't of done much, but I figured that comment he made alone meant something. That was the last conversation I've ever had with Joran.
 
I feel for Natalee and her family and friends, because it really could of happened to anyone. The jerks who say that she shouldn't of gotten drunk, shouldn't of left the bar with a guy she didn't know, they are ridiculous. I believe Joran did meet Natalee days before Carlos & Charlies, and I believe he probably showed her the same kind of respect he showed me and my friends, and I believe he was as nice to her as he was to us. This probably made her trust him a little bit, especially when youre drunk you will trust anyone whose being nice to you.
 
Do I believe he had it in him to actually murder her? No.. Not from what I knew of him. Do I believe he put something in her drink and probably raped her? Absolutely.. They were probably smoking pot in Deepaks car also. I believe she died somehow while with him, he called Paulus for help, and the cover up began. As for Deepak and Satish? I'm not so sure.. I really don't believe they are involved all that much. I believe they knew what happened to her, and they should be punished for not coming forward with their information. But I don't believe they were there when she died. Just my opinion though.
 
Anyway, sorry for the long post, just wanted to share my story and experience with Joran Van Der Sloot.
 
Keep up the good investigative work, monkeys! =]
 
Ronnie

Thanks for sharing with us Ronnie, and most of all thank you for sharing the conversation you had with Joran right after Natalee's disappearance with Dave.  That was a very considerate thing for you to do, and I'm sure her family appreciated it very much.  I hope you'll come here often and share your thoughts with us.  We are only looking for the truth.  We want Justice for Natalee and her family, that's all. 
I'm glad you're here, welcome to Scared Monkeys!!!   

[texasmom]

Goodnight all!

Goodnight Klaas!   

[billb's daughter]

Hello everyone! I've been a board lurker for over a year now, and I've followed this case from the very beginning.  So many of you are SO intelligent, and I can't believe all the information you guys have been able to retrieve over the years. It's amazing that now, after all of these years, so many facts that we've all known all along are just starting to come out now. Absolutely unbelievable and ridiculous.
 
Anyway, the main reason I began following this story was because I had known Joran, not very well, but we met while I was on vacation in Aruba, October of 04. I was 16 at the time, he claimed to be 18. I had gone with my parents and 2 friends of mine (female friends). Nothing serious went on, we met him by the pool of our hotel (he was with 1 male friend the first time we met them) and after that he kept coming by the hotel for the remainder of our stay there and would hang out with us. The only thing he had really lied about was his age, the rest seemed to be pretty truthful (for example, he did tell us he lived in Aruba, he didn't lie about that). But even then, we did find something a little bit strange about him. We kept referring to him as the weird kid, because of the way he acted. He spent a lot of time talking about alcohol and pot (I live in NY, so for pot to be spoken about so openly was strange). He asked us quite a few times if we wanted to smoke with him, but we told him no, he seemed to respect that.
 
The day we were leaving, we exchanged screen names to "keep in touch." I was the only one out of my friends who kept in contact with him, but not too often. He was my online "poker buddy." Went on web cam a couple of times. After a while he started trying to talk dirty, but I shot that down real quick. The last time we spoke on the messenger before Natalee's disappearance was April 05.. So you'd imagine my surprise when in May, I heard he was a suspect in her disappearance. It definitely gave me the chills, knowing this was a person I hung out with only 7 months before. I couldn't believe at first that he was responsible, because like I said, besides his constant talk of drugs/alcohol, he wasn't really disrespectful to any of us. He knew we were all too young to go to the clubs/bars so he never really pressed that issue.. Like I said, the only thing he tried to do was get us to smoke pot with him, but we declined every time.
 
I was shocked to learn that he had lied to us about his age, what was the point? If he was 17 in May 05, that would mean he would of been the same age as us, so why lie? The more and more I heard about the story, the more and more I realized he was guilty. We spoke on messenger one more time after he was named a prime suspect. I had asked him why he lied about his age, he said he was trying to impress us and also that he could get in trouble for drinking underage so he had to lie to everyone he met about his age. I then had asked him if it was true, what he did. He made a strange comment about the truth coming out someday. At the time, I copied the entire conversation and sent it to Dave. I knew it really wouldn't of done much, but I figured that comment he made alone meant something. That was the last conversation I've ever had with Joran.
 
I feel for Natalee and her family and friends, because it really could of happened to anyone. The jerks who say that she shouldn't of gotten drunk, shouldn't of left the bar with a guy she didn't know, they are ridiculous. I believe Joran did meet Natalee days before Carlos & Charlies, and I believe he probably showed her the same kind of respect he showed me and my friends, and I believe he was as nice to her as he was to us. This probably made her trust him a little bit, especially when youre drunk you will trust anyone whose being nice to you.
 
Do I believe he had it in him to actually murder her? No.. Not from what I knew of him. Do I believe he put something in her drink and probably raped her? Absolutely.. They were probably smoking pot in Deepaks car also. I believe she died somehow while with him, he called Paulus for help, and the cover up began. As for Deepak and Satish? I'm not so sure.. I really don't believe they are involved all that much. I believe they knew what happened to her, and they should be punished for not coming forward with their information. But I don't believe they were there when she died. Just my opinion though.
 
Anyway, sorry for the long post, just wanted to share my story and experience with Joran Van Der Sloot.
 
Keep up the good investigative work, monkeys! =]
 
Ronnie

Ronnie...
Thanks for sharing, and I think many feel that the night of Natalee's disappearance started out with a small group of young men that were used to luring young females for pleasure, but something went wrong. After lurking on SM since early June 2005 and watching the circumstances play out as they have to date, I no longer believe it was a random act by young men. Joran is a sick product of aurba and  sick parents that enabled his behavior. Even as bad as joran behavior has been, it is clear to me that their is a deeper sickness in aruba society that has covered up for whatever transpired that night, and it disgusts me that human beings can be so immoral. Karma will get them all, but I pray that if nothing else happens in our lifetime, Natalee will be returned to her family.....

[texasmom]

Goodnight everyone!   

[RonnieNY87]

Billb, I agree. This is a sick world, and Joran, Paulus, the Aruban authorities all contribute to making it this way. The Aruban cover up makes absolutely no sense, I don't understand how people can be so heartless. They destroyed the integrity of their Island, and put their natives to shame. For what? To protect a 17 year old boy whose Father happened to be a judge and a good friend of the investigators involved? If this had happened in the US, no way this would of happened. There was recently a case here where a young girl left a club with a guy, she got murdered and her body was found in the woods. They caught the guy who did it within a week, he's currently in jail serving a life sentence. It's been 3 years, and Joran is still running free. The worst part is, he shows absolutely no remorse, no guilt.

I'm constantly reminding people that I know of Natalee Holloway, saying it could happen to anyone. I don't do much partying, but when I do every once in awhile, I'm always aware of whats going on around me, because of her. I carry her tragedy with me all the time. I always keep a close watch on my friends when I see they are just a little bit too drunk, talking to some strange guy they just met who decides to buy them drinks. This case has helped me realize that in this world, you can't trust anyone you don't really know, no matter how nice they may seem. I really really hope and pray that someday, Natalee will get the justice that she deserves.

Thank you everyone, for a warm welcome! Goodnight

[finngirl]

re the Caps issue (and w/ all due respect)

if you stopped to think about it,
many here could remember a time when
Tito didshenotaskforit Lacle
Julia Renfro
and even sandraK
were protected/defended by mods/admins
and many fellow posters as well

we were asked/told not to question those three
if/when our hinky meters went off

re the first two:
their identities were vouched for

re all three: was the trust/respect warranted?

just sayin' ... 

to Ronnie:
thank you for a very interesting perspective
and I hope you will continue to post

[San]

Please do not start on Caps.  Klaas has repeatedly said she believe he's on the up and up and I do not want him to be dragged into this.  Jossy has given the witness from the pond's name on national television so this person is not a figment of Caps imagination.  Caps has done a lot of good and brought us lots of information.  I don't always agree with his assessment of Shango, but he has never told me something concerning that pond that has not proven true.  If you disregard what Caps has said about the pond witness you also are calling Tim a liar since he was the person that made arrangements for the witness to take a polygraph here in the United States.  To bring Caps in this as another one of the conspiracy bunch is not fair to him.  Klaas and Red are well aware of his identity. 

 

Yes, she has...read her posts.  Klaas has said she believes him to be a good person.  She knows all there is to know about Caps.  I am so sick of what is happening to some of the good people that have done nice things for the family.  It's become more than I can stand to sit by and watch this happen.  Caps is well known by Dave too, so before we jump onto him everyone should take a step back and think if that is what you really want to do.  I know Caps name and I know what he's all about and it's not about hiding anything.  I can assure you that Mos was not happy about this new witness...the one Caps brought to him...it upset his apple cart and when Tim made arrangements for the witness to come to Texas that too got under Mos skin.  Tim told this story on Dana one night so don't anyone think I am making this up...I am not.  Jossy told his name on Greta last week...so he's a real breathing person.  I just think bashing Caps because he appears to be part of some conspiracy to cover up is beyond the pale.  I am done with this, but I wanted to stand up for Caps because there have been times I should have taken up for others that have left here and I didn't.  I won't leave this time without having my say about Caps.  He is one of the good guys here.   Attack me if you want, but leave Caps alone in this...he was not involved in any of the Persistence stuff.

Like I said yesterday there are a lot of people here that say trust me.  People have questions and concerns and have the right to question others.  There are plenty of people who have done a lot for Natalee's family.  You are putting CAPS on a pedestal because YOU believe in him.  We all have our own thoughts and feelings about this and because someone questions him you come out and feel it is not allowed.

Kermit was attacked yesterday and she came on and went toe to toe with the individuals questioning her actions.  I expect the same from CAPS.

I don't care who CAPS is because it is none of my business.  To me he is just another poster on SM.

Lala's whom might the others be that left here and you are defending.  Was it because they were being attacked?

We can question one poster but not another.

The only thing I disagree with is when a poster comes on here bashing Natalee's family.  We are all on the same side and it will not be tolerated.

[San]

re the Caps issue (and w/ all due respect)

if you stopped to think about it,
many here could remember a time when
Tito didshenotaskforit Lacle
Julia Renfro
and even sandraK
were protected/defended by mods/admins
and many fellow posters as well

we were asked/told not to question those three
if/when our hinky meters went off
re the first two:
their identities were vouched for

re all three: was the trust/respect warranted?

just sayin' ... 

to Ronnie:
thank you for a very interesting perspective
and I hope you will continue to post

You are right.  No one was allowed to question them without someone jumping down someone's throat.  At that time I didn't post as much and just sat and watched.

I no longer sit and watch and I have a voice.  If something don't sound right we have the right to ask questions.

[San]

HAVE A GOOD DAY EVERYONE.

[blah]

Kermit I asked this:

who are experts

would you prefer not to answer?

Sorry johann I was trying my best to answer the other questions from way back and still can't get to them.
BUT to answer YOUR question, at this time, the FBI does have the information as well as Beth and Dave and John Q. Kelly.

Kermit....forgive me, I'm a little dense.
I think the question is: who are the experts that believe the remains are those of Natalee?
It's is good to hear Beth, Dave and JQK know of the info (pics).
Thanks.....

Kermit is saying that the FBI is the experts that believe Natalee was in the cage.

[blah]

AND IF YOU WANT TO KNOW IF I'M IN A BAD MOOD YES I AM.

 

[johan555]

Please do not start on Caps.  Klaas has repeatedly said she believe he's on the up and up and I do not want him to be dragged into this.  Jossy has given the witness from the pond's name on national television so this person is not a figment of Caps imagination.  Caps has done a lot of good and brought us lots of information.  I don't always agree with his assessment of Shango, but he has never told me something concerning that pond that has not proven true.  If you disregard what Caps has said about the pond witness you also are calling Tim a liar since he was the person that made arrangements for the witness to take a polygraph here in the United States.  To bring Caps in this as another one of the conspiracy bunch is not fair to him.  Klaas and Red are well aware of his identity. 

 

Yes, she has...read her posts.  Klaas has said she believes him to be a good person.  She knows all there is to know about Caps.  I am so sick of what is happening to some of the good people that have done nice things for the family.  It's become more than I can stand to sit by and watch this happen.  Caps is well known by Dave too, so before we jump onto him everyone should take a step back and think if that is what you really want to do.  I know Caps name and I know what he's all about and it's not about hiding anything.  I can assure you that Mos was not happy about this new witness...the one Caps brought to him...it upset his apple cart and when Tim made arrangements for the witness to come to Texas that too got under Mos skin.  Tim told this story on Dana one night so don't anyone think I am making this up...I am not.  Jossy told his name on Greta last week...so he's a real breathing person.  I just think bashing Caps because he appears to be part of some conspiracy to cover up is beyond the pale.  I am done with this, but I wanted to stand up for Caps because there have been times I should have taken up for others that have left here and I didn't.  I won't leave this time without having my say about Caps.  He is one of the good guys here.   Attack me if you want, but leave Caps alone in this...he was not involved in any of the Persistence stuff.

Like I said yesterday there are a lot of people here that say trust me.  People have questions and concerns and have the right to question others.  There are plenty of people who have done a lot for Natalee's family.  You are putting CAPS on a pedestal because YOU believe in him.  We all have our own thoughts and feelings about this and because someone questions him you come out and feel it is not allowed.

Kermit was attacked yesterday and she came on and went toe to toe with the individuals questioning her actions.  I expect the same from CAPS.

I don't care who CAPS is because it is none of my business.  To me he is just another poster on SM.

Lala's whom might the others be that left here and you are defending.  Was it because they were being attacked?

We can question one poster but not another.

The only thing I disagree with is when a poster comes on here bashing Natalee's family.  We are all on the same side and it will not be tolerated.

In my view, anyone can his/her own research.
I do also
Kermit can & Caps also
But Kermit said: Kyle said Caps is (one step Away .... ) with other words he is dirty hand
That is also a kind of a attack and she create an atmosphere
Why is Kermit speaking for Kyle ?
Is Kyle said important things on a private forum and you want to tell what >post the screenshots  here !
Kermit and Caps go on with your research ,Peter does that also 

[ldstlou]

Is Dateline considered a news source?  And as such a member of our free press?  Both the LA Times and the NY Times have published blatantly classified information against the interest of national security and in spite of the protests of the entire intelligence community.

I just wonder how the FBI was able to force Dateline not to show what they had without violation of the Constitutional right of freedom of the press.  They can ask but they sure can't force a legit news source to do anything.

That's a great observation!What news source wouldn't have shown that footage if they had it??

They had a contract. In the contract it said if anything was found of evidential value, they could not show the footage.

[ldstlou]

I think what we experienced tonight was a hijacking of sorts.
Friends of Kyle took over the board to offer soft, simple, mis
information to defend Kyle.  Maybe they are confused.
I think Kyle may be a little afraid of going to jail for the things
he has done, but why send women to defend him.  Why can't he
come himself?

There's more we still don't know.  I don't think Kyle could go to jail for anything we've heard about so far.  He didn't turn over the footage, but even if he had it still proves nothing without the actual contents of the trap.  That's why I don't understand all the different attempts to discredit Kermit and defend Kyle. 

Why do they even care what we think?  It doesn't make sense to me.

I don't know who "they" are but I did it for myself. I still beleive what kermit is doing is wrong and so I could look myself in the mirror, I had to say it.
Simple as that.

[MumInOhio]

Good Morning!

Well…I am not sure what to make of all this, so have just sat back and read. Saw things turn pretty ugly yesterday.
 
Posters are questioning other posters…I have done that…Actually Lala’s and I were the first to question what Caps was bringing to the board.

And I questioned his being here first, sorry Janet. Got jumped on pretty good, IIRC, even though I never ever said his intentions were not good. For now I have chosen to leave it all alone.

Keep reading context and backing up posts…Hmmmm…did everyone go back to all those posts of November 13th. and look for the context? Not just the one post quoted, but the post in context? I checked out a few, recalled many more from the long hours those days in Shango.
 
Not trying to pick on any of the players in this drama, just making an observation. I have a lot of respect for all these poster’s opinions from many hours of reading before I joined SM and have spent months reading the archives.
 
Thought I spent some time on Friday night finding Kyle’s posts about the “Thumbs Down”, and posted them, as I recalled what I had read in context. Then again it up to each poster to believe what they want from another poster’s post. If one chooses to not believe Kyle’s explanation fine, but it just seems to me that nobody even read what I posted he said. Or not one person acknowledged they did…Think I spent about half an hour looking for that.

Back to where I was on November 13th before this all started, by my logic, it must have been important!

Have a great day everyone!

[Pita]

I don't belong to any private forums either.   

... but ... but ... I bet you were invited.  I wasn't.

 

Janet

Eh, I wouldn't worry too much about it.  Doesn't really sound to me like they're the brightest bunch around.  (Am I allowed to say that? If not, please delete it - I don't want to get kicked out - I know nobody would invite to join anywhere else!) 

Are you talking about the Freebirds? 

[blah]

What's the explanation for the sudden departure of the ship AFTER requesting funds to continue a search?  Why-when so many heeded that call for funds by sending in the donations-did they just up and leave without giving it a chance to collect the needed funds?  What were the funds for IF they thought they had been "had" by the Aruban OE back in Jan.07?

I never asked these questions so I really can't answer...it would just be a guess and I don't want to do that.

Is it possible that you could find out?

I'm going by memory here and my memory is pretty lousy but I think I remember something about a hurricane or tropical storm coming to the area and they were trying to avoid it.  Or was that on the way down there?????

[MumInOhio]

What's the explanation for the sudden departure of the ship AFTER requesting funds to continue a search?  Why-when so many heeded that call for funds by sending in the donations-did they just up and leave without giving it a chance to collect the needed funds?  What were the funds for IF they thought they had been "had" by the Aruban OE back in Jan.07?

I never asked these questions so I really can't answer...it would just be a guess and I don't want to do that.

Is it possible that you could find out?

I'm going by memory here and my memory is pretty lousy but I think I remember something about a hurricane or tropical storm coming to the area and they were trying to avoid it.  Or was that on the way down there?????

Hi blah...I think it was on the way down there. Recall a recent post about the Persistence leaving with the weather forecast being so bad.

[blah]

Meanwhile, Beth and Dave suffer and Natalee remains dead for another Christmas. And all this energy is wasted.

At a moment when we are starting, long over-due, to look at the first 48 hours and a direct  accusation of what we've known all along, you're focusing of underwater pictures?

Skipping past the van der straaten involvement, the van der sloot house, and the actual crimes committed against Natalee in her last moments?

And by Paulus van der sloot when she was alive.

How can anyone picture Natalee's face right now and waste time making this about anything other than bringing her home?

Confrontation can be a great moment in the creative process but this ain't it.

Thanks, Frank.

I'm spending my energy writing to the members of the Dutch parliament, asking that they initiate an investigation of the corruption in the Aruban government, resulting in the violation of Natalee Holloway's human rights. 

Information provided by Caesu snipped from post on page five of this thread:

so through article 43 is the only option for Aruba

that's why i keep repeating that it is important to contact the Dutch members of Parliament.
and the coming week is crucial with debates on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday - leading op to the Round Table Conference between the three Prime-Ministers with Balkenende presiding in Curaçao on December 15th.

list of members of Parliament of the Aruban/Antilles committee:
http://www.tweedekamer.nl/kamerleden/commissies/NAAZ/index.jsp#0
names on top of the list are the highest ranking members.
(e-mail will appear if you click on a name and "Naar persoonlijke pagina").


As soon as I figure out the etiquette for writing to a member of the Dutch Parliament, I am writing them all.
Wanna help me?

We do really need to keep the pressure on for the next couple of weeks as this is our best chance at bringing the Rudy Croes declaration to the attention of those who can actually do something about it.

And I believe the Internal Affairs Division of the Dutch police is called the Rijksrecherche.

I'd like to hear your hillbilly butt pronounce that!!!!!

 

[Tamikosmom]

I don't belong to any private forums either.   

... but ... but ... I bet you were invited.  I wasn't.

 

Janet

Eh, I wouldn't worry too much about it.  Doesn't really sound to me like they're the brightest bunch around.  (Am I allowed to say that? If not, please delete it - I don't want to get kicked out - I know nobody would invite to join anywhere else!) 

Are you talking about the Freebirds? 

Pita ... I was under the impression that Lou was speaking about ... the forum that Kyle was invited to ... is a private forum that was just formed recently.  Then again I could be wrong.  Story of my life.

Janet