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Jug is judging VDS' based on their lifestyle. Wonder what goes on in his home?

Mark Klass is forgetting how the Aruban justice system works on CNN. He's really very hot tempered tonight.

Lucky they have the reporter and the defense lawyer to help provide fact type info.

I JUST got home...watching O'Reilly (me gots da DVR) WOW...what DID papa say to Greta that was inconsistent??

Kerin.. I cant speak for Aruba 911.. but I know where I live in PA.. it is all basically channeled through the 911 system.. which made me wonder about Aruba and if they have a 911 system as well..!  Thats a good point.. one I cannot answer because I dont know.. in my area.. we knew things before the family itself did.. which made one feel bad..I been there and done that..! If Aruba does have 911.. and IF someone WOULD have called if NH was drugged or needed help.. it would be ALL on a taped line..where investigators could go back and review tapes!
((Nikki) back at yah!

this is so scary....no body, no case

SOT

Back when we started , the very first incarnation, which was a total of 7 posts back in 2003, that was our very first post.

T

Thank you all for keeping with these ideals.

His anger is overpowering his senses.

It wouldn't really matter under what circumstances they met each other; Jug + PVDS = massive cultural mismatch.  IMHO, of course.

Under the SM Index you'll find:

In Natalee Holloway,  the Natalee Holloway Archive.  The forum in locked but you can search til the cows come home...

In General, a new forum for the NJ Missing Boys and the investigation/search details. [/b]

thinking we're like DVR at times here!

and Scared Tom - thank you for providing this very congenial monkey home. I was wondering if you all need some contributions towards bandwidth charges since we're all making ourselves at home 24/7?

I know they said that inconsistencies were from Greta's interview but I got the feeling that they might have come from the meeting between BTH and VDS. After the meeting she said that she got confirmation, and that more folks were involved and would be arrested. I felt then that she was talking about something that was said at that meeting which gave her "confirmation" that PVDS was covering something.

But seeing as the conversation wasn't taped and Greta not being law enforcement might make that hearsay, maybe it was something in Greta's interview. But doesn't it seem strange that Greta continues to say don't jump to conclusions, he could have left her on the beach and someone else got her. Plus the deal from Greta about the mystery airline passenger. Hmmm.

If they haven't, they should. Not just to see whether she had talked to Joran specifically, but everybody that she chatted with, especially if she mentioned to them her upcoming trip...

I don't understand the "premeditated" murder charge

Be careful...remember when they were saying they found the body in such an informative and convincing way. :wink:  :wink:

Yezzz....I wish we could find out more about THAT!!

note that Joran's attorney on Greta used the same terms when Greta asked how Joran was doing - "He's holding up" so maybe that phrase should not be construed as a negative in the PVDS statement.

PVDS trained Joran's attorney if seems.

Greta now interviewing PVDS attorney Antonio Carlo on FOX

((((HUGS)))

Man, what a day! Could NOT get home from work..grrrr first a firetruck got hit, then the roads closed due to an officer being shot and killed  :cry:

Anyhow, is it just me, or does anyone else feel frustrated due to the "english" language understanding barrier, that when these Aruba people are interviewed they get lead into this rabbit hole...almost like they are on the stand as a trial witness... I feel more confused everytime they do an interview. Everything they say is so misconstrued...

Maybe it's just me...

And thank you, Tom, for sharing that post with us!

Author: ru (---.shv.bellsouth.net)
Date:   06-06-05 22:50

C&C should move back to Mexico. Thought it was not up to Aruba's style of class. Loved everywhere we went in Aruba, people were kind and gracious, but thought C&C reminded us of Tiajuana. Get rid of joints like that and keep the elegance of the island in tact.

Thanks every one for the kind words.

We are committed till we are committed to helping others. But we are nothing but a couple of blabbering fools without you the members of Scared Monkeys. Your view points, tips, comments, and personalities are what makes this site.

That, combined with the leadership provided by Cat, RB, and Absolut in these forums are making this site a  wonderful place.

So to all, thank you very much. We will work to earn you respect.

Tom and Red

HUGS back at yah Cali.. Sorry about your rough ride home from work.
Relax.. kick off your shoes.. drink a beer..(III)?  I'll share mine.. and I agree with you about being confused .. I am as well.. ughhh

SOT

Author: JakHamma (---.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
Date:   06-16-05 08:01

Carlos and Charlies is great for about 5 minutes. It's sleazy and I agree with the person who said it belongs in Tijuana. Aruba needs a club for the late 20's / thirties crowd. Plus - get rid of the drug dealers in front of Carlos & Charlies.

Cali - glad you made it home!

I think you are so right about the language issue. The Arubans are being asked to answer often loaded questions in a language which is not their first - and then we parse and critique each comma. Add in the difficulty of dealing with the difference in legal systems and it's frightening what can get misunderstood.

Jug said that they just charge em with the max all of the possible charges and I guess they sort it out later. But he also said that they were all charged with the same thing, and I thought PVDS's was the a lesser charge: complicity in all of the charges.
Does it mean planned or just not done in the "heat of moment, or not involuntary here? And I wonder if pre-meditated means the same thing there that it does here? Anyone??

That could happen alot.

okay, so what of any new arrests/inquisitions???
earlier am (after kerin to bed) we learned of Lorenzoe's family biz...
Rob and I thought he'd be next in  jail...
has greta been to his basement...????
what a strange trip that would be!

Author: George (---.jax.bellsouth.net)
Date:   06-20-05 14:12

Definitely, I got the same bad vibe from C&C. Can't imagine sending my teenage daughter there...especially late at night, but hey. I'd advise Aruba to pick business they want to stay.

Mambo Jambo's was nice, Tatoo was weak in the food dpt, although it was fun, not what I wanted.

Had a good time, just Aruba is experiencing growth pains as their tourism base changes.

Hey guys..Earlier I heard that Papa VDS was NOT cooperating with LE while being detained..Does anyone know where that came from and what is being said about it?

It is going to be fairly time consuming to copy that other forum here 1 post at time.

I also worry people with attribute the comments to you and possible expect you to defend them.

Tom,
At risk of being shunted to the chit-chat room. Ever heard of Albany, GA?

Don't get me wrong I love Greta but sometimes I just have this urge to slap her and tell her to drop her lawyer routinue.

It's like, okay they speak some english, not US english..ask some short simple questions for pete's sake and stop putting words into their mouths and confusing the crap out of them and the viewers. It's like she tells a whole hearsay conversation repeats it and then asks "is this your knowledge"? Grrr How about.. cut to the chase and more on.. go follow Equusearch or something. They keep going over and over the same old thing..

Greta does a good job with the differences in legal systems - she's the only one who really keeps that front of mind.

Deepak's attorney says all suspects are being interrogated with intense pressure. He also says he is having to protest to get documents, etc which is unusual and that much is odd in how this case is being handled.

SOT

ask an aruban??? is there a hot-line for that???

I agree, cali! She's got this poor guy stammering all around..But, I still love ya, Greta!

Point taken... it is aruba's own tourism site.

http://www.arubatourism.com/

 Havnt heard that..  listening to Deepaks attorney on FOX.. Greta asked him IF one of the kids tells their parent ANYTHING if the parent would have to tell what was heard.. he said NO.. WTF???   These attorneys seem wierd to me.. IMO only.. they damn near all know each other...and if they work there like they do here in PA. they are in cahoots..(however the heck you spell it) with each other.. AGAIN  IMO only.. grrr!

IS 'NO SHIT'  still international????

I think you are so right about the language issue. The Arubans are being asked to answer often loaded questions in a language which is not their first - and then we parse and critique each comma. Add in the difficulty of dealing with the difference in legal systems and it's frightening what can get misunderstood.[/quote]

Thank you,,my thoughts exactly.

>>>I don't understand the "premeditated" murder charge.

The charges of premeditated and kidnaping sound like perhaps Natalee did not OD on the beach but became "hesterical" after or during the attack and was taken from the scene and killed.  

I think the rumor that Natalee was "hysterical" has been made here, along with a rumor of a girl being forcably being removed from the beach.

Also, perhaps drugging someone whos ends up OD'ing constitutes premeditation. But if that was the case, where does the kidnaping charge come from?

icey

You probably read what I read.  Carl Penhall of CNN cited "inside source", whoever that is supposed to be.

Good God a mighty, you hear that?  Caribbean Queen in the background on Greta...

I cannot concentrate on the interview with Nat's aunt while that music is blasting in the background.  :lol:  :shock:

...sigh...ah, yes.  Maybe that explains the "exhaustion" I'm feeling with the litany of patter with the presentation of this case.  FOX does it wall-to-wall and the others contribute their almost obligatory cut to their one correspondent who tells us what the AP just reported

Having 80's flashbacks....

Hey Hannie..!!  Question for you if you can answer it.. !! Do you know if Aruba has a 911 system?? AND if so .. is it channeled through the LE???

Was wondering If i was the only one laughing at that..LOL..dang...
did anyone else hear Shepard smith say, "THAT is WACK" the other night after an interview?? LOLOL

Put feet up and de-stress, in whichever manner you prefer.  At least you aren't in St. Louis where they have smoke all in the air and exploding oxygen tanks.

I can dig it.  The language thing evokes feelings ranging from hilariious to riduculous to maddening.  Simple phrases get all bent out of shape, engendering all manner of linguistic misinterpretations.  This is my favorite from today:  "the 17 whose birth day it is..." (meaning "the 17-year-old") and so on for everyone whose age was mentioned in the article.  

Some of the English-Papiamento tranlation sources are so clueless that I begin to think I might consider a career change and learn Papiamento.  It's easier to read Papiamento itself than an bad translation.  One of the few positive things to come out of this saddness, speaking for myself alone, is the awareness of the Arubian culture and a desire to know more.  I believe it was Iquitos who explained that their particular language was an offshoot of the Jewish exodus from Andalusia, sometime in the 15's (I hope I remembered that correctly).  What a beautiful people.

The misunderstandings  because of the language barrier take place on both sides of it, as we can tell from reading some of the Aruba posts.  

Oh, another crazy-maker:  trying to do any sort of search on people from Aruba.  I'm not doing very well with descriptors, thinking maybe if I could use the word in Papiamento my results would be better (but then, I wouldn't be able to read them).  I have tried every permutation I could imagine to find info on Lorenzo van Rijg, or van Gijn, whichever spelling you choose.  


I ramble.  To sum it up:  YES, I share your frustration, at the same time feeling like we've come out of the rabbit hole and are already at the Madhatter's Tea Party.

Please excuse me for going on so long~but it's a subject I'd bend pondering.[/i]

This is freakin' incredible - what a juxtaposition.  Partying and tragedy all together in one place.

If I had a quarter for every inside source story, I could afford to go to Aruba, darn it.  :lol:  :lol:

Possibly from drugging her at C&C's, then driving off with her while she was somewhat incapacitated?

Meanwhile, what's this story about a CourtTV report about someone else from the Alabama flights and staying at the HI being missing? That could shed an entirely new light on the whole affair. Apparently Greta would address this, but I haven't heard anything about it yet.

 I heard that! Love the song, of course that was another time in my life. I guess it is Paaaaaaaarrrrtttttttyyyyyyy Time......... it is friday!

But odd for this story.

NH Aunt saying Joran is out of control cause of going to Casinos and snekaing out at night??  I dont really agree with that.. not sticking up for JVDS.. kids sneak out when they are teens...they sneak and do alot of crap... IMO   I was one once YEARS ago..lol  Wasnt the perfect poster child teenager. Hard to hear her talk with the loud music in the background..

I personally think its a wee bit inappropriate..I mean, "do you think she's dead?" "CARIBBEAN QUEEN, Now w'ere sharing the same dream"" How Is Jug" "and our hearts still beat as one..no more love on the run"".....damn..

SOT

I have no idea if the arubians have such a system, but they problably have some kind of helplines just as we here have. To be honest I don`t really know how extended your 911 system is and what you excactly mean.

Aunt Twitty:

"and of course, he wasn't home, he was at a casino".....

OMG how flippin awful!!  

and........."why would he tell his son not to say anything?"

He's a lawyer, why wouldn't he advise his son not to talk!! Joran's own lawyer said he doesn't agree that he is not present during initial interrogation!  

This family is beginning to irritate me with the way they are judging this family!  We all want the best for our kids, and we all make mistakes...


Glass Houses Twitty's, Glass Houses!!!

I just want to go to Aruba, take a microphone and start bopping people on the head LMAO I woulnd't get mych airtime as the "agressive" reporter! lol First I would standup and yell.."Hey %^&*^%&#, I'm trying to do a dang interview..can you stop partying for a stinking minute? Thanks" Then throw up a peace sign jk  :lol:

My heart goes out to them. Aunt Linda is a good rep in portraying painful father's day for nat's dad. Gut-wrenching.

Carefull ladies, you all might end up like Natalee... :shock:

Hubby hasnt been following case..just asks time to time, "whats new?"
Now he;'s sitting on the couch and says, "ya think they couldve given her a date rape drug?" LOLOL..umm..i think we've already asked that, dont you monkeys??What 5000 posts ago?? :shock:

right?! Like oh my god (WW's best valleygirl impression)

I guess it is so horrible not knowing where Natalee is and beginning to think she is dead that one might be judgemental. I do believe they believe Joran did what happened that made her missing.

Judgementalism is not the same as killng someone, wouldn't you agree.

If I were in their shoes, I might be judging them myself.

SOT

Thanks Hannie...   Not that we have an extended 911 system.. but the calls go though the LE agencies.. all calls are recorded..incase investiagtors need to review a case.. its all on tape.. just wondered how different parts of the world are with 911 calls..!!  Thanks!

it is probably channeled and filtered accordingly ...

Hannie, we got reruns of Greta's interview with the Kalpoes' mom...

was it ever determined who "Lorenzo" was?  I may have missed that posting.  The reason I ask is that I ran across a reference and a quote from a Captain Lorenzo who has a deep sea fishing boat.

Of course, I am sure there as many Lorenzo's with boats in Aruba as there are owl's in Wisconsin.

Start one, FOM!  Find a partner from Aruba and you might really having something.

One point of great interest to me is who Jovorkian left the beach with.  If he left with the elder Van der Sweatsalot and “something bad”, at least an act perpetrated or witnessed by Jovorkian, happened then it follows that his father is complicit or at least has knowledge.  If  he left with his father and he left her on the beach intact, as he apparently maintains, then obviously there is nothing for the father to be complicit in other than lying.  On the other hand, if either Deepdish or Saliva provided transportation from the beach then they either know what happened and/or are complicit in the coverup and or disposal.

Of course, we do not even know, with any certainty, that young Van der Slut was left on the beach with her in the first place.  We only have the statements of the boys themselves and second hand accounts thereof.  If Dipshit and Salacious did indeed drop them off at the beach in close proximity to the hotels it is unlikely that Jordache had any plan to engage in foul play and either he left her there passed out or whatever happened was accidental or perpetrated by a third party.  Based upon all the information that I have learned, I believe that they were indeed dropped off at the beach near the hotels.

I have also not heard any discussion, assuming that there was a disposal, regarding the logistics of this area and the feasibility of dragging a body to their vehicle without being seen or leaving tracks or some sort of evidence.

There is no evidence of any sort of drug use be it voluntary or otherwise.  The speculation regarding the drug overdose amazes me, particularly in light of the descriptions given of her condition upon leaving Crackhouse and Colmes.

I further gather, based on the fact that the local authorities are still mired down in trying to trip up these people in the details of the stories and that the elder Van der Hosen was arrested based on some trivial statement made to Gretsel Van Slurredspeach that they really don’t have much of a case.  As the talking heads are now saying, without a body and or a confession these guys will all walk.

Like most everyone else here I know very little about what actually happened.  I do know with certainty that the media is doing everyone a disservice in this case by disseminating false and misleading information, placing themselves in the middle of the story and engaging in massive speculation.  Greyhair Van My Mouth is Crooked should shut up and go home.  I also can’t help but think to myself that Aruba is somewhat less than my idea of a tropical paradise, at least from the images I am seeing, although it might be worth a trip just to score some X and then hang out at the garbage filled quarry behind Deepshit’s house.

I haven't searched thru all of todays post but what about the point Greta is trying to make that PVDS had to 'go one step further' than just be told by his son something happened. I keep getting this feeling that the first night the Twittys were there, he led them away from the house because Natallies body was there...

No, call the Aruban police. They're good at not finding any evidence! :lol:

so I am assuming then... that if you HAD a daughter and she was missing... you would behaving so much more civilized than Jug. HUH.  I guess you really live up to that screenname of yours. Glass house, baby.

If  this ever goes to trial, they'll just play back all of Jughead's interviews, and there will be reasonable doubt as to whether NH ran away to get away from her abusive stepfather  :shock:

Angie, did you here when Jug refered to Urine as C&C "poster child"?  He said his pichure was everwhere there.  Thats purty outa control for most b17yr olds dontcha thank?

Oh is that what you meant angie, ok if aruba has such helplines they problably also tape the phonecall yes, b/c that is the way it goes in the netherlands also and the lines are also connected with firedepartments, ambulances etc.

C'mon, now Paula!! You look good too girl..Lookin' all svelte in your little black dress... :wink:

I am sorry, ....they do not know if these boys did anything, YET.

I think they have all been way too close to this investigation, and of course it is only obvious that they would blame the last person"known to be with her" but from eyewitness accounts, their daughter was also drinking and in Casino's...yes, till wee hours of the night!!!

Last night it was the rooster in the interview with the brothers' mom.  Or was that the monkey? :wink:

We need to install monkey emoticons.

guess what...even he isn't talking!!! :roll:

LOL!!!!!! We're a dangerous bunch with idle time. LOl!!!!!!

HiCali, if yask me you seem ta be OUTTA CONTROL!   :P  :P

Hey!  I wuz jes kiddin!

Hey I used to go out and be a hellion lol. Just my mom was so naive she always bought the story that the clock in my car must has stopped because even though I was 2 hours late for curfew.. it said the correct curfew time... ::wonders if my mom has figured out the internet and is reading this LMAO::::: Sorry mom... lol

WonderWoman I think you may be to close to this too.
Where did you get that email from?
You seem awfully defensive.
Also since when is drinking into the wee hours of the night a crime?

Like a bad episode of Miami Vice. (Assuming that there were any good ones)

Lets just thank god they were not playing ...

http://www.seeklyrics.com/lyrics/Beach-Boys/Kokomo.html

Well JVDS and his mom did paint the mural. Thats my story and I am sticking to it.

OMG>>THEY ARE PLAYING STAYIN"ALIVE!!!!!!!!!

RED!!! that was truly evil - I didn't even need to listen to it to have that song begin nonstop repeat in my brain ...

I am sorry, ....they do not know if these boys did anything, YET.

I think they have all been way too close to this investigation, and of course it is only obvious that they would blame the last person"known to be with her" but from eyewitness accounts, their daughter was also drinking and in Casino's...yes, till wee hours of the night!!!




I didn't format it right! Sorry. If those parents were not "so close" to this investigation there would be no investigation. And the last persn known to be seen with a young woman who is missing, when that last person keeps lying and lying,,,well to suspect he did something does not require a great leap.

I don't understand your comment about Nat drinking till the wee hours. What does that mean? She isn't suspected of murdering anyone. She has never been in anger management. She isn't the criminal here.

You are mighty quick to blame the parents of this woman. The hell they are in seems to make me give them a wide berth. I would be screaming mad myself.

He said that on FOX about 30 minutes or so ago.. I think others on here heard the same thing as I did!! Im sure it will be repeated again on tv!!
Im not sticking up for JVDS by all means.. Just mentioned that teens arnt perfect.....!!  If there is a perfect teen out there.. Id LOVE to meet them in person!!  But it was on Fox.. it was JUG who said it!

i think they put up a new thread for that didn't they????

Please, give up the goods!  What web address?

All I've found are the references to a car rental company (under name van Rijn)

I keep scouring all the photo sites to see if I might recognize someone who could be Lorenzo, which is crazy because I have no idea what he might possibly look like.

Only know what I knew in the first place:  Lorenzo van Rijn (aka van Gijn) is rumored (stress on rumored) to be the illegitimate son of PDVS, born prior to his marriage to Anita.  One source mentioned they were close to each other.  I've also heard him described as crazy, into drugs, and fond of spraypainting his house.  His (step) father is rumored to have had problems with drugs and to have committed suicide several years ago.  

Why I feel like he's more connected than not, I really don't know, but I do.

Seems you maya missed my drift.  That was a chicken or egg questern!  NO FENCE! :oops:

If it's any consolation, I saw someone on another website blaming the Runaway Bride.

dude - it's stayin' alive now...

It means, with malice aforethought.  If they have reasonable suspicion that Natalee was drugged (Steve-Deepak-Joran connection) with the intent to commit a crime (kidnapping/rape), then that constitutes premeditation.
 
Even if Natalee's death was an unintentional accident, if someone dies while in the commission of a felony, it is, legally, murder.

If an armed robber walks into a convenient store, tells everyone to drop to the ground, and steals $100 from the register and leaves.  That robber, who had not intentions of killing anyone, can now be charged in the 1st degree murder of the 80-year old woman in the store who was terrified and dropped dead of a massive heart attack.

OK girlfriend I don't want to fight but:



and i stand by that to this minute.

who was here last night who said that
 :?:  "innocent people don't play musical alibies???

Me too . I pulled up VGB Security site. I think it's in Dutch and translation made absolutely no sense. DOn't know what I thought I would find anyway. The only thing I could find is there is a rene van heijerwhatever that plays in tennis tournaments. The rest of them just google to blogs.... could find nothing on lorenzo except somebody from Aruba on Riehlworl connecting him with a guy from WIS or MI ( I can't remember) that lives in Aruba who has a naughty site advertising prostitution svc (I guess I meant escort) in Aruba. THey were tying that to the porn tapes that Geraldo brought up. max arends site has photo pictures of friends and one of those is connected to a weird, slightly sleazy looking dirty old man named Marten who has about 1700 pictures of young girls on his site. I just couldn't quite bring myself to open a tickle account so I could drill down on the pictures and comments.  Never could find reference to the almost decapitation except on blogs.
And they call this the world wide web?? I want real links not blogs, darn it. I'm in the cyber sleuth mode and I'm reduced to reading Bryan's predictions. I guess I need a life.... :wink:   :)  :)

Huh? I haven't heard this one yet -- not that I've read everything.

Details?

heartache, I can certainly say that I would not act as he is....because BULLYING people gets you nowhere, c'mon that's a given....

Hey when I get to Aruba I am dressing up as Don Johnson, and listening to Jan Hammer on my IPOD. After this case Aruba will need tourism the way NY did after 911.

Natalee seems to have a vast array of aunts.

I think we need a family tree.

yes why do you need a 'cover story' for leaving someone on the beach???
since when is that a crime?

I aint stinkin up fer him either, but when I was a teen ever gilr I took someplace always got back alive!

SOT

We sure did.  Comments and debate about the "email" go here:

http://scaredmonkeys.com/Discussion/viewtopic.php?t=223

Louise wrote:




There are a lot of people here that are mighty quick to put the blames on joran , his parents and the rest in custody!! As far as we ALL know the only thing so far he`s quilty of is lying not murder... In those circumstances I don`t think he`s the only one who would lie if you been the "supposed" last to see a girl who dissapeared.

I am sure those pictures have MANY of the same people in them!! They are kids' with an adult atmosphere surrounding them.

Maybe in your world...

Seems like you got a good grip on it...
still more questions than answers

A very thoughtfull and funny account of Yora Van Derslut, Deepshitpak, and Satishsomeshitwerin :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

Just curious guys.... what party and music are you all talking about :? ?

SOT

Let's face it, Joran is spoiled rotten.  Some kids can handle the freedom, some can't.  Joran overindulges...well he DID...and he thought he could get away with murder...oooops..did I say that?

Ting or anyone - on the Aunt point

The aunt who was just on with Greta kept saying something about her brother - is that Jug or father or someone else? anyone know?

Kidnapping, in a legal sense, does not necessarily mean a child abducted and held for ransom.  

In Natalee's case, being drugged against her will and transported anywhere constitutes kidnapping.

If she said, 'drop me off at the Holiday Inn', and Joran said, 'Deepak, take us to my house, and she objects; from that moment forward, both Deepak and Joran are legally conspiring to kidnap Natalee.

Perf - play nice or leave.  Move on, people.

Uh... I would hardly term NH 's stepfather and husband of Beth's, behaviour thus far as "bullying". You called him annoying.  Which is frankly, beyond annoying.

Hi everyone! I'm watching Nancy Grace, and what's this about a lake being searched today? They also talked to Natalee's aunt (her dad's sister) that the owner of the Tattoo won't hand over the logs of whether the party boat was out the night she went missing. I thought they said before that it did go out that night? The more I read and watch, the more confused I get and I've been following this from the beginning!
 :?

BTW, x911, I'm only about 5-10 miles from you, I could run over some smokes  :D

ok for those that didn't understand my post, WonderWoman said JUG is too close to the case.
WonderWoman posted the email from Deepack.
WonderWoman obviously knows someone who knows Deepack.
WonderWoman is close to this case too on the defense side hence her always sticking up for them and putting Nattalie and her family down.

Greta is at the HI. During her interviews there's a party downstairs and they're pretty loud...

Part of the lyrics:

Life goin' nowhere. Somebody help me.
Somebody help me, yeah.
Life goin' nowhere. Somebody help me, yeah.
I'm stayin' alive.

Thanks for the info. So if I understand...if it was unintentional accident it is still premeditated if it occured during commission of other premeditated crime. So the converse would be that if she was not kidnapped or drugged, and say died from choking on a hamburger..would that still be premeditated or something lesser?

LOL Mike.. I hear yah,.. whne I went out with men. I made it home also.. trust me if I wasnt home in time. my mom and dad came out looking for me.. caught me parking as well..  :oops:  Im not saint..!

SOT

If they platy "Another one bites the dust" I am gonna start thinking they are doing this crap on purpose...

I love Greta, but if she says "carlos and CHARLIE" one more time, i am gonna smack her head..it has an S on the end..grrrrrrr!!!!

Although unlikely, it could just be that the cover story was concocted after they learned she went missing and didn't want to get blamed.  More likely they are hiding something.

coco, I have no clue. I am positively dizzy from the aunt swarm. I had a brief flash of hope on Larry King, who tonight featured one who was not blonde. But five minutes later I realized that her non-blondness was the only thing I could grasp. Both her name, and her place in the geneaology faded into the auntmist.

Perfect example!
You are bullying me.
See WonderWoman....

Ok, forget it then.  This one is much older and works at the ferry dock helping tourists decide which boats to use for fishing, scuba, shark watching etc.  Obviously isn't the same one since the name is Irasmus.  Thank you anyway for responding.

my hubby was on his computer, knowing what I was into on mine, and said the same thing about the song Stayin Alive.... :shock:  :shock:

Ok thanks RB :wink: I thougth the greta crew was partying :shock:

can dag do "home sweet home"?

Didnt they say, the first night the Twittys were there, they dropped her off at the HI? At that point even the police didn't consider her missing.

I said : Perf - play nice or leave.  Move on, people.

Perf said: Perfect example!
You are bullying me.
See WonderWoman....

Enough.

I will say that these interveiws with the family in the party atmosphere isn't right. Not sure who there grips and setup guys are but there has to be someplace quiet. Although on the beach would have been equally as bad I think.

Like using Papiamento words in my descriptors?  Usually I'm a fairly prolific google researcher, but not when I came to Lorenzo.  Someone else might have fared better.

Hannie - a Greta update - she's just done a walking tour of the places involved - the casino, the macdonald's, CnCs, and finally the beach at night. I bet she'll have photos up from this tomorrow on her site if you want to look. It's kinda interesting to see them all in order after all this discussion.

Nikki.. IF that song somes on.. I will personally drive to your house and we will get crocked!

Or it could be they are covering for someone else. Steve Croes? That's what Mrs. Van Derboobs claimed in the paper today... :roll:

SOT

Maybe a hotel lobby would be nice....PLease, somebody write them and tell 'em its a little distasteful...hurry before they play Elton John's "iSLAND GIRL"

Jailhouse rock???????

jail house rockk.

tee hee

w/e (in case you don't know what that means... what ever!)
What are you WonderWoman's body guard or something?
That was not an insult, name calling or inflammatory post...

It'll be a 10 hour drive, BUT I will wait up for you...beer in hand!

Jailhouse Rock

Are they doing this on purpose???

OMG   Jailhouse Rock playing now!

quit poking each other or go to bed please!!!!

SOT

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!

someone who knows the DJ selected the music?---just asking... :lol:

Maybe a friend of steve croes...LOL

if there's resentment of the US media, the hotel band could very well be getting their kicks this way ... and I thought Greta was gonna lose it when Jailhouse Rock came on!

i told you before it was fuc**d up...i thing songs are only outlet of local info now

Maybe Joran and Deepshitpak called in a request... :roll:

no party at lorenzoes???? bummer.

Email greta and in the behind the scenes blog she will respond probably.

SOT

Now that was funny!!!!!
 :lol:

Jeeez, I just now caught up with my reading here and I'm still about 30 minutes behind on Greta...not hearin jailhouse rock yet.

 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

I think, based on the fact that the parents were even there, that she was presumed missing.  It's probably a moot point anyway.  Like you suggest, they are probably concealing something more sinister.  From the supposed dipstick e-mail we know she fell asleep in the car.  It's not unlikely that she could have simply passed out on the beach and Jerkran, being the gentleman that he is, had his way with her a left her there.  That could have provided sufficient motive to lie.

I still love how she pronounces his name "Urine".  I love that.  Even when she interviews someone that prounounces it correctly, she still says "Urine".  lol.  So funny!!!!!   :lol:

Okay, I have a question......I read 5 or 6 pages back about someone on a plane?????  I did not want to ask if it has been discussed, but I haven't seen it mentioned since and I am curious........Can anyone explain??  Please!!!

Sounds as if these songs are being played on purpose.. Gimme a freaking break.. Damn. the DJ needs his ass kicked....Sounds like whoever it is is making jokes that arnt funny.. all the songs then jailhouse rock?? Whats next Tiny bubbles for vrying out loud.. or the theme from Jaws.. the DJ needs slapped.. perhaps requests for songs are being made..but still.. come on.. !

Me too...what's up with that?

I think they r all related
as media mouthpieces...
at least

muscle crelaxrs kick in...typing may suck from here on out...sorry :roll:

Not defensive, defending, because it's wrong

It's NOT against the law, that is my point! Nor does it make for a murderer or rapist!

You cannot go potty while you are here..But, because yall are my friends, I am willing to travel to you and place a few catheters..WITH drain bags at no extra charge....LOLOL

I think Greta said this evening there was a gentleman from the US who checked in to the same hotel as NH...he never returned, checked out, or something...sort of disappeared.  

If I'm wrong, I'm confident someone from this kind and gentle group will correct me! :wink:

Greta said that while the investigation focuses on Joran, there are other leads that she and her crew are looking into even though most are dead ends.  She mentioned that there was a man that flew in on the same flight as Natalee and stayed at the same hotel, but there is no record of him going back to the US so they are trying to track him down.

Dag - this afternoon, Greta did a live report in which she was cautioning that while folks are being held, all leads should be followed up and then mentioned that there's a guy who was on the same plane as NH and in the same hotel and has now vanished, did not take his plane home, etc.
No other info - she did say she and her team were chasing those leads.

<---workin on her 3rd 7&7 (will attempt to correkt any mistaces)

and u  all thought i was smokin sh*t then!!!

I think she is trying to say he's a little piss...in a grtea kinda way...LOL

Holy crap.  What guy?  If he's missing, what is his family saying.  Jeez this is the most bizzare case ever.

interesting that Greta has not mentioned that story again tonight - they may be chasing it and not want anyone else to look into it? though I think I heard it also mentioned on CNN or MSNBC but my brain is foggy now... still singing Kokomo!

It was also mentioned on the courttv board and maybe on air.

We still think that FOM.  All the time!!!  lol.. :shock:

SOT

Because they were afraid that what IS happening WOULD happen!!

get it or no....


innoceny until proven guilty

Thanks all for answering my question..............interesting!!!!!

'

Nuthin wrong w/smokin responsibly.

SOT

You are always defending them ...why?

Oh poor Mama Kalpoe  :cry:

Probably wouldn't have happened if they had told the truth from the beginning instead of helping put 2 guys behind bars that were completely innocent from day one.  Wasn't Mickey John in there pointing fingers at other people.  He just told the truth.  Those who lied got themselves (and innocent others) put behind bars.

OK, let’s say the Aruban LE wants to find the body of NH. Why don’t they put a large map of Aruba in the interrogation room where PVDS and JVDS are located and every so often have someone update the map where the Texas Equusearch is making their searches. If the A-LE watchrs PVDS and JVDS very closely during the day they may notice those areas of the map where PVDS and JVDS take a lot of interest in. If they do pay a lot of attention to any particular area of the map, perhaps that is the area where they dumped the body.

We seem to have some possibly new news in the case of the boys in NJ in that thread.

http://www.scaredmonkeys.com/Discussion/viewforum.php?f=11&sid=806373b3a4dc811a7c2175d92ce60e22

Suspect/Witness being sought.

SOT

Has anything came up about who the missing man is?  The one from American.

Where is Daddy Kalpoe?

yep...still listening...prefer calypso if u take requests!!

Because it's possible, Leslie.   I don't think it's defense of them, I think it's taking the situation at face value.

The guy sat beside her on ther plane right?  And now they cant find him?  Thats crazy.

urine deepshit..nice

SOT

I haven't been able to get that song out of my head all week.  Most inappropriate, but stuck in there nonetheless.

((((((((((((((((((((HUG))))))))))))))))))))) How was your trip?

I've rediscovered gin and tonics this summer - 90 degrees plus in New England - so that's my new drug of choice - but only one or I fall asleep and can't read here.

btw - I don't think WW is defending "them" - I think she's defending truth, justice and the american way - otherwise known as innocent until proven guilty. And I think we should all remember that and how much we do not know as real fact.

Playing devil's advocate

I kept waiting for them to play "Margaritaville" so I would feel right at home!!

ok..2 year old is asllep..to hell with late afternoon naps..hubby in shower ready fr bed..12 year old going to bed..I"M ALMOST THERE!!! I just took something for heartburn..should be good to go soon!!!! LOL

no...they like to play "i'm soooo lonely,,,mister lonely..." alot on dag tho

SOT

Because, WW is keeping an open mind...because, whether we like it or not, we don't have the evidence to string them from the nearest tree yet. just my opinion now folks. I'm not about to be a bodyguard for wonder woman. They'd call me the fat friend with the good personality.  :lol:

No, I've not heard many details and I don't know that I would classify him as "missing".  There is just no record of him flying home.  Maybe he moved hotels and decided to stay longer.  Maybe he extended his stay and is one of those volunteers out there searching for Natalee.

Playing devil's advocate

Wench, I rather don't look at it that way.  With some of the unclear statements made by both sides (yeah Jug musta been tired tonight - ask Absolut) I still don't have a feeling one way or the other who did what when.

SOT

oco wrote:
Ting or anyone - on the Aunt point

The aunt who was just on with Greta kept saying something about her brother - is that Jug or father or someone else? anyone know?

I think her brother is Nat's father but hey, they all look alike and have funny names.

Leslie Sprenger wrote:



I am with WonderWoman on that!

I`ll do the same thing so you can blame me for that also, by the way I don`t know any of them !

I only think it`s fair to see both sides here not only one side. I think it`s very narrow-minded, just what I said before, if you are that age and you are in the same situation what would you do if you are "the supposed last"
who saw a missing girl?? So I think it`s only human that does not make you a murderer tho!

Because nobody else does....

That Aunt is the sister of Natalee's father (not stepfather)

Jug was all over the place tonight (i understand why) but pretty soon the Twittys will have landed on the Island before Natalee disappeared.

Dragonfly - any thoughts where we can get more info on the "missing guy" (thank you for the reminder on not knowing - we need it as a mantra)

You have no evidence of that, you are only speculating. Do you know Mickey John?

oh damn..here we go...

<<It means, with malice aforethought. If they have reasonable suspicion that Natalee was drugged (Steve-Deepak-Joran connection) with the intent to commit a crime (kidnapping/rape), then that constitutes premeditation.

Even if Natalee's death was an unintentional accident, if someone dies while in the commission of a felony, it is, legally, murder.

If an armed robber walks into a convenient store, tells everyone to drop to the ground, and steals $100 from the register and leaves. That robber, who had not intentions of killing anyone, can now be charged in the 1st degree murder of the 80-year old woman in the store who was terrified and dropped dead of a massive heart attack.>>


Scott, your scenarios are applications of the felony-murder rule.  Not sure if that's part of Aruban law, or what falls under it.

As posted earlier, premeditation could be found through a refusal to contact police or to seek legitimate medical help after an emergency resulting from one's intentional act.  Again, not sure about Aruban law here.

While I'm at it with stuff I don't know, can someone confirm the Aruban legal definition of "complicity"?  One board admin here and one TV talking head said that it precludes involvement in the actual crime - that, for this case, it involves only a post-crime cover-up.  However, the spokesperson has asserted that the suspicion re: PVDS covers the disappearance itself, and was not limited to a cover-up.  If "complicity"  does not cover this, then what potential charge for PVDS would?

Off track alittle...........when y'all are talking about the radio station in Aruba called dag it always freaks me out.  DAG (my screen name) is my initials.

But it IS against the law for Joran, since he's underage.  Natalee is 18 - so if she was drinking and gambling it was legal!  

While watching Greta tonight she confirmed that Joran was gambling all day with his dad at the Holiday Inn, until his dad got tired and went home.  I know that we knew that Joran was at the hotel casino (and met Natalee in the casino), but did we know that his dad was there with him all day?  Did dad meet Natalee and have a conversation with her by any chance?  

Also, I thought that was the day that Paul VDS game back from his trip - did he actually come back the day before?  Sorry - so many facts / rumors / speculations that I'm getting confused!

Leslie Sprenger wrote:





I`ll bet far far away right now~!!

I don't know.  She didn't give any other information about him.  Just that he was on the same flight with Natalee to Aruba.  Someone mentioned a story on another news show or something, but I don't have enough information really to do a search unless there is some other article or something out there about it.

My heart tells me that Nat's mother's instincts are right on, especially since my gut tells me these guys are hiding something (first hint...liars...everyone of them).  But I definately ate crow when Elizabeth Smart was found.  The case was NOTHING like anyone thought.  The possibility that she was kidnapped by some religious fanatic and was wandering around in her own town never entered anyone's mind, did it?  I think they did "something bad" to NH but until we know...we don't know.

I caught that too. It was definitely one of those HUH??? moments.

Yeah, really nice.....

I do and I know when he is lying..he was telling the truth on tv

Question--If
1.she had an asthma attack ( I don't know that this was a medical condition she had or not, just thinking )
2. alcohol poisoning
3.drowned
4.fell and hit her head because she was drinking

all innocent causes of death, perhaps dad and joran were to afraid to call the medical personnel or LE, because they wanted to avoid gossip or investigation, what with joran's and dad's future so "bright"

Possibility yes, excusable NO!   But I could see it happening. Joran and dad need a cover story and involve the bros kalpoe, then get rid of the evidence. ( they think )

If what happened to Natalee was innocent and an accident, it could be proven and there would have been no need for lies.

it's not the event but the cover-up of the event.

ok..once and for all..is it pronounced "SLOTE" or "sloot'?

SOT

I thought they were saying tonight that it was pronounced Slunk

...been surfing here for many days....need to work early tomorrow A.M so I won't be online much longer....just wanted to comment:

I am a parent of teenage girls.  I can easily sympathize with all parents involved in this tragedy.  So many of you speculate and theorize and I do as well.  Everything is not always as it appears.  I have learned this through the years from my own experience, with having teenage girls AND with being friends with parents of teenage boys.  I want to believe Natalee is alive and with all that I've been able to wade through on this website, I still want to believe that.  Of course, I have my doubts, but I really believe that by now, a body would have been found.  Yes, I know, she may have been dumped in the ocean, but does anyone know of the case of AnnMarie Fahey?  No body, but plenty of evidence....Anyway, I've been wanting to comment for sometime and now I guess I'm hooked.  

About Joran, I've looked at his websites and photos and some look incriminating, but as a parent of teens, I KNOW how these websites look and how these kids act.  As I said before, everything is not always as it appears.  Believe me, I have first-hand experience with mis-understanding situations with which my girls have been involved!  And I am the first to jump to conclusions!  Let's save our judgements until we have hard evidence and answers.  Just something to ponder....................

You're forgetting the rest of the saying, innocent until proven guilty under the law.  

Public opinion is different than the law.  

You are either guilty or innocent, that doesn't change after a verdict, what does change is your legal status.

And not to get off on a tangent cause I won't respond...I've never been quite satisfed that we know the whole story on that.

I thought he was in the slammer.

Linda Allison is Dave Holloway's sister.

So have I been singing this in my head, but didn't remember all the words.  So thanks for the link to the lyrics.

TV MOM..welcome!

It's pronounced 'Sloat'.

I have maintained from the first greta interview with beth as my source. That "her medication" was found in her bag.

LOL  No actually I havnt had an eye exam lately..LOL   I dont want run away bride eyes.. ugh!

WW, Vincent Brothers could use some of your cheerleading.  He was the VP of my kids' grade school.  We LOVED him!  He was tough, but fair and most of the kids liked him (if you can believe that of a grade school VP).  I would like to be fair, but I can't help but feel like he committed the horrific crime he has been accused of.

Lausa, alot of the posters here can help you when you are trying to serach for info. like that[/quote]

Me too . I pulled up VGB Security site. I think it's in Dutch and translation made absolutely no sense. DOn't know what I thought I would find anyway. The only thing I could find is there is a rene van heijerwhatever that plays in tennis tournaments. The rest of them just google to blogs.... could find nothing on lorenzo except somebody from Aruba on Riehlworl connecting him with a guy from WIS or MI ( I can't remember) that lives in Aruba who has a naughty site advertising prostitution svc (I guess I meant escort) in Aruba. THey were tying that to the porn tapes that Geraldo brought up. max arends site has photo pictures of friends and one of those is connected to a weird, slightly sleazy looking dirty old man named Marten who has about 1700 pictures of young girls on his site. I just couldn't quite bring myself to open a tickle account so I could drill down on the pictures and comments.  Never could find reference to the almost decapitation except on blogs.
And they call this the world wide web?? I want real links not blogs, darn it. I'm in the cyber sleuth mode and I'm reduced to reading Bryan's predictions. I guess I need a life.... :wink:   :)  :)[/quote]

Truly ROLF!!!  We've apparently made quite a few of the same "hits" although I'd say you're just a little ahead of me.  I've even thought about opening a tickle.com account to do more investigation of Marten, but I think you have to get "invited" to become a tickle member.  I'm out of the age range to know many people who might "invite" me (but I'm a LOT younger than Marten).  Of course, I would have to use a fictious name and no pic.  How embarrasing would it be if a student found me on tickle.com?  Rumors, rumors, rumors.
What was that great John Lennon quote that someone puts under their posts?  Something about reality.

The problem lies in the fact that you're legal status could be guilty when you are in fact innocent because of public opinion.  It happens.

I think that woman needs her throid checked...lol..speaking of exams...

Me too . I pulled up VGB Security site. I think it's in Dutch and translation made absolutely no sense. DOn't know what I thought I would find anyway. The only thing I could find is there is a rene van heijerwhatever that plays in tennis tournaments. The rest of them just google to blogs.... could find nothing on lorenzo except somebody from Aruba on Riehlworl connecting him with a guy from WIS or MI ( I can't remember) that lives in Aruba who has a naughty site advertising prostitution svc (I guess I meant escort) in Aruba. THey were tying that to the porn tapes that Geraldo brought up. max arends site has photo pictures of friends and one of those is connected to a weird, slightly sleazy looking dirty old man named Marten who has about 1700 pictures of young girls on his site. I just couldn't quite bring myself to open a tickle account so I could drill down on the pictures and comments.  Never could find reference to the almost decapitation except on blogs.
And they call this the world wide web?? I want real links not blogs, darn it. I'm in the cyber sleuth mode and I'm reduced to reading Bryan's predictions. I guess I need a life.... :wink:   :)  :)[/quote]

Truly ROLF!!!  We've apparently made quite a few of the same "hits" although I'd say you're just a little ahead of me.  I've even thought about opening a tickle.com account to do more investigation of Marten, but I think you have to get "invited" to become a tickle member.  I'm out of the age range to know many people who might "invite" me (but I'm a LOT younger than Marten).  Of course, I would have to use a fictious name and no pic.  How embarrasing would it be if a student found me on tickle.com?  Rumors, rumors, rumors.
What was that great John Lennon quote that someone puts under their posts?  Something about reality.[/quote]

reality sucks???

I said last night I thought she had Graves.

not true, ww  :?

if I can't wear my monkey hat according to Ting's rules, then no one can go potty---------drugs fine, but no potty!  :lol:  :lol:

Welcome, TVMom...

Thanks for you insights...come back soon.

I was waiting for that fact. Yes, he shouldn't be there at 17. But, his father probably does have pull. Like any other town in the good ole USA.

Point, neither Natalee or Joran should be picked apart for doing the things we've all done in our lives!! or similar activity.

Okay, I'm not going to spend the next 3 hours arguing.  You have decided to be the defender of what is right and just in the legal system, innocent until proven guilty, and that is admirable.  But, there are a lot of people who are mad at these young men simply for lying.  Their lies caused a huge delay in how this crime was investigated.  I'm not saying that makes them murderers, but it does upset me.  I feel like they gave LE the runaround and two innocent men were arrested and held for days because of that.  Yes, the premise of the US judicial system is "innocent until proven guilty", but the US system and the Dutch system work differently.  I have my beefs with both systems.  My opinion is what it is about these boys and that is based on lies, not an assumption that they are murderers.

KackyLacky---Your scenario just doesnt pan out. Paulus VD SLOOT is a TRAINED Lawyer he of all people know that an accidental death is NO-WAY a Prosecutorial Murder Charge. If anything he would have told his son Joran to immediately contact the Police. I just doont buy an accidential death cover-up. The Boy Joran would easily get out of any rap if that scenario had happened. There has to motive to prove Murder, and if there is no motive there is no murder.

GuyWdog

welcome Tvmom.... :D

Thank you, but the question was not directed at you.

Nice to meet you, friend of Mickeys

Has anyone including any of her friends said what kind of "medication" she was taking or needed? Maybe she was a diabetic? Just a thought :)

It has been asked hundreds of time, no one responds so I assume no one knows.

Unless they find traces of a date rape drug in her system, or evidence of a struggle, nothing "accidental" about that.

I agree 100%.  If you are innocent, your parent wouldn't suggest you "saying nothing" (although an attorney knowing you committed a crime might...hmmm?) when a parent is at your doorstep at 3am looking for their missing daughter.  I just can't image ANY reason for them to lie OR to say nothing, unless they were trying to cover their behinds about something.

 :arrow: U 2 WW... but thats why this is called a forum discussion
don't u think???  collective input/ideas/knowledge???
I think it is important factor here...

Been gone all day, so catching up reading.  Did anyone ever post what type of medication?

sot

Huh?  You're asking me if Natalee were to voluntarily go in the car with Joran, Deepak and Satish...they stop at McDonald's, head up to the lighthouse, and while there, Natalee is, of her own volition, eating a Big Mac, and chokes to death..is that premeditated?

Unless she started choking in their presence, and the 3 boys said, 'screw her...she's better off dead', there's no crime committed.  It would truly be an accidental death.

actually, it is your questions absolute that have (although I can't find anything about any med Natalee may have had with her) me thinking along these lines at times.

While this is certainly often true, I think the quote had a more oblique twist to it.

Nope

Thanks to all that have welcomed me onboard, but I need to sign-off and go to bed.  Hopefully I can be more productive tomorrow and days ahead.

Maybe the motive was an american girl. Weirder things have happened. His mother mentioned his former american girlfriend dumped him because he was too nice. Maybe he wanted to show how bad he could be...
There were two kids in texas with wonderful futures, one have a scholarship to the airforce academy and the girlfriend had one to annapolis and they killed to prove a point. You never know>>>

I could be all wrong, but. . .looking at some of the pictures of Natalee - she seems really thin in the recent photos.  Just wondering if she lost weight for prom, like girls (my daughter) do.  110 pounds is thin for her height. . .with her system already trying to handle the alcohol, possibly some of her own medication too - if she was then given drugs, it's easy to see what might have happened.

This may have been answered,,I am behind..but she is Holloway's sister..She lives in Ark,,

G`nite TVMom....

I can't take all the credit for it, a sometimes poster and lurker PM'd some theory questions a few days ago. It was one of the few left I couldn't get answers to.

"No posts exist for this topic" -- getting this response for pages 17 and 18.

if she were diabetic, i would assume that her parents would be blasting that all over saying"please, please bring natalee home..she needs her insulin" etc...Justa thought

LOL Absolut.. Guess I wasnt the only one asking that question. which is a good one to ask I feel.. meds could be asprin.. alllergy pills etc.. but was curious. at least  if it was something that she absolutely HAD to take that she needed.. and couldnt go without taking I guess was a point a tryed to make before..maybe not in those words!  Nobody knows!

me too

Is this it..........

Surrealism had a great effect on me because then I realised that the imagery in my mind wasn't insanity. Surrealism to me is reality.

Or possibley this.......

Reality leaves a lot to the imagination.

We just moved a signifigant number of post.

NICE- thank you dag

I hope it ends soon, getting tired second guessing back and forth...Perhaps its time to take Joran back the scene of the crime.

Where is the best place to get an update on the last 10 hours or so?

I was thinking that when I posted about going back there every morning at 3 am. How would he react? Might be the final straw to holding out.

Marriot Beach, and a drop site.

Hmm, FOM, I meant other than reading all the posts - is there a board that has a list of events. . .I have only been checking this board, but figured there must be a summary SOMEWHERE!

A summary has not been written in awhile, anyone want to take a stab at it?

My bad, FOM, I read your where do you think that is, as my question, not where is the scene!!

What crime??... We don`t even know IF there was a crime commited

Is this it..........

Surrealism had a great effect on me because then I realised that the imagery in my mind wasn't insanity. Surrealism to me is reality.

Or possibley this.......

Reality leaves a lot to the imagination.[/quote]

You hit it with #2.  But I love the first one & will add it to my cache of well spoken words.  Mnay thanks!

u think she went on a boat??? short ride??? where is wiz???
p.s. soory about the jump head first thing... :oops:  :oops:

So, what I'm finding in surfing, is that the police have announced that they do think a murder occurred.  Is that right?

Okay maybe my analogy was not the greatest..I was inferring that if the death was truly unintentional -- say she did die of alcohol poisoning or because she didn't have her asthma medicine or insulin -- (through no fault the boys but they freaked) in  the US that would not be premeditated. It would be covering up a crime because he was scared sh!tless.
So my point was..I wonder..do Aruban LE truly think it was PRE-meditated murder as you defined (that they went in with malice aforethought)..OR could their definition be different than ours. ANd could their definition be one that would make lying or covering up accidental death pre-meditated.

Never mind..it's not that important and I can't even follow what I just wrote......just curious...we've got all of these legal experts saying pre-meditated but none are allowing for the langauge barriar .. :wink:

I personally think that complicity charge could be because he allowed Joran to go to Casinos, clubs and drink all night long, they might be saying that he allowed the circumstances that allowed something bad to happen. Like getting charged because a kid drank a beer at your house and had a wreck on the way home.

Simple, really.  Suppose Joran is innnocent, but his dad doesn't know he is innocent.   Or Joran is guilty and dad knows he is guilty.   Or dad doesn't know either way so he's playing it safe.

Natalee’s favorite song
The first paragraph was her senior quote written in the yearbook.
Lyrics for Free Bird by Lynyrd Skynyrd

If I leave here tomorrow
Would you still remember me
For I must be traveling on now
There’s too many places I gotta see
And if I stay here with you girl
Things just wouldn’t be the same
For I’m free as a bird now
And this bird you can not change
And this bird you can not change
And this bird you can not change
Lord knows I can’t change
Bye bye its been sweet love
Though this feeling I can’t change
Please don’t take it so bad now
Cause Lord knows I’m to blame
And if I stay here with you girl
Thing just wouldn’t be the same
For I’m as free as a bird now
And this bird you can not change
And this bird you can not change
And this bird you can not change
Lord knows I can’t change

Can we list specific fact issues that bother us still ... like:
- Natalee's medicine?
- Natalee's passport - this came up this afternoon
- precise definition of complicity under Aruban law
- "the missing guy"


others?

The only piece I don't have a theory about is the drop site. Unless it was straight out into the ocean, sink the body and let the currents take her away. Or where did Dad take her.

I think the only reason the LE did that is to cover all bases, if it`s ever go to trial...

I missed alot too....but, the only news I recall is a further explanation of the charges of all five of them.  I suggest you go to Fox or CNN to get a good description. Basically Joran's is the worst, the other boys second and the Dad third.

All five are expected to be in court soon, one report said tomorrow.  They are flying in a judge to interrogate them all.

That's about it...maybe someone else can add to this.

as I said in a lower post, this goes thru my mind at times. That said, I am a child of a parent and grandparents of Norway, and I kind of understand how those parents think.

To this day, my Grandmother covers for her son, the alcoholic who everyone know steals from family by saying he is just trying to get ahead and needs help. I bet there are some here from Europe or from recent European descent who understand what their "family's name" means in the world.

I could see my grandfather covering for one of his kids, just because reputation is everything, I mean almost everything to them. It is hard to understand the degree that reputation means to us as Americans.

But, I agree, I wouldn't cover like this for my child, I am not in no way shape or form, rationalizing or excusing anything the VdS's may have done, please understand that!
KackyLacky
Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 10:45 pm
OK I have not taken sides so to speak, but By God if this was my daughter I guess I would be considered a cowgirl, because I would leave no stone unturned. If this was my son, and I have one who is in Iraq as we speak, I would ORDER him to talk to the parents of a girl who came to my door in the middle of the night saying he was the last known person with her. I would MAKE him tell what he knew.......no if ands or buts, and if it incriminated him, then I would deal with that then.

Hello, all...

Am I the only one who can gladly never read the lyrics to Freebird, again?  Bad enough they're an overrated and overplayed band.... :)

Gracias, Nancy-Drew por la informacion.  Will check the MSM and brb.

Hi all,
I wish when Gretal was at the Marriott beach she would have turned off the camera lights.  I looked like it would have been pitch black there without them.  Not a place I would want to be in the middle of the night.
BTW did we just lose pages?

Yes, L. Orphan, you are the only one in the whole wide world who does not appreciate Freebird.  Sorry.

If I were writing a novel, I would have all the things that have already happened in this case as the beginning.

The end would have Natalee living in the US under an assumed identity after ther family collected on the five million dollar insurance policy that her stepfather had her buy on her 18th birthday.  The rational for such a large policy without suspicion would be that she could lock in a low premium rate at such a young age and that her insurance man stepfather had a strong belief in over insuring as both protection and as an investment.

Of course Natalee and her family hatched the whole plot to make money and Natalee was just looking for a patsy when she lured Joran to C&C and later got Joran to leave her on the beach that night, after which her stepfather's pals pick her up on the beach and take her away to make it look like Joran did her in.  She never thought the incompentent authorities would have more than suspicion of Joran and the fact that he was trying not to get in trouble with his parents led to the made up story which in turn led to his unintended conviction for murder.

Just a better way to think of this than to face the high probability that Natalee is deceased from an as yet known cause at the hands of an as yet unproven party.  Probably a not much less supported idea than half of the theories advanced anyway.

I have many questions for the MBHS kids on the trip, but I have given up on those.

Tonight lawyers talking to Greta or was it Jug? said that they charge the top possible charges to start the investigation then sort them out before bringing to trial - did I get that right?

so if I were an Aruban prosecutor, I would go for these big charges like premeditated murder and then assume I might be downgrading that to manslaughter (or equiv) or even criminal negligence or such?

In Dutch law, is there the responsibility to help someone in distress or danger (which we don't have here)?

Fanfiction at it's best but in this case would really be totally shocked?

If it were insulin, than as a diabetic she would not be supposed to drink at all.

When I  too a youth group to Europe, chaperones had to keep all meds--and the only ones students were allowed to keep were inhalers and those vials for a couple of kids with bad insect sting allergies.

I noticed the weight change, also, but I was thinking more along the lines of illness.hmmm

>>>While watching Greta tonight she confirmed that Joran was gambling all day with his dad at the Holiday Inn, until his dad got tired and went home. I know that we knew that Joran was at the hotel casino (and met Natalee in the casino), but did we know that his dad was there with him all day? Did dad meet Natalee and have a conversation with her by any chance?<<<

Hmmm.... I didn't know that Dad was with Joran at the HI casino earlier that night. Heard it for the first time on Greta tonight (sorry if I'm slow on the news).

Could it be possible that the Dad "pimped out" his son to get him girls? I remember threads relating to the topic a few nights ago, butI didn't really pay attention to them. After learning more about the elder VDS's past...possible illigitimate child, clueless wife, etc. Is it possible that he encouraged his son to hook up with girls for himelf??  His wife WAS out of town.

Maybe Joran brought her to the beach only to hook up with DAD, she resisted, things got ugly and something bad happened.

COULD DAD HAVE BEEN WAITING AT THE BEACH FOR NATALEE???? What do you guys think? There is no account of Paul's whereabouts during this whole mess, other than he was home asleep and there is noone to backup his alibi because he was home alone (wife was away).

One of the blogs or possibly a newspaper story, had a really good description of what some expats settling in Aruba might feel.  I travel a good bit for work to a Central American country, and found there description to be true of some people.  The story described an arrogance, an attitude of being above the law that some ex-pats have. . .kind of like they have more money, intelligence, etc.  That is my take on PVDS. . .that no one would possibly ever think he or his family could be involved in something like this, so they would get away with it.  Perhaps under the stress of the situation, when asked for advice by his son, that was what he was thinking.

i was thinking she was alive at drop site

no offense, but this is one of my favorite songs as well, it really is big in the South, and probably means nothing.   All I have to hear is the line from another song of their's is " Turn It Up" and I am a teenager again.

not again...freebird thread please????

The photo on the right has its original title as it was given in the blog where I found it; "WaStEd". It shows Joran and another boy drunkenly tweaking each other's nipples -- pseudo-homoerotic horseplay plenty of straight guys recognize. The photo shows Joran Van Der Sloot the clown, the dutch kid who even though his island of residence, Aruba, says he can't drink till age 18, still was drinking openly whenever the opportunity presented itself.

News reports all indicate that Joran enjoyed gambling, and this is perhaps how he met Natalee Holloway -- playing blackjack in the casino in the same hotel where the American students from Mountain

Absolut - re the other kids - lots of questions here too! The complete silence (I know they were told to be quiet, etc) is weird and I just don't trust the whole scene somehow though I can't figure out how it all fits together.

Anyone else just think birth control pills when medication was mentioned?   :shock:

I absolutely do not think that the dad was involved, until the son needed help.

If it ever goes to trial? Ahhh ... Aruba better hope it goes to trial. You don't have 5 people held on reasonable suspician charges, 3 of which were the last to ever see her and a missing teen.

If that ever occured they best close up shop because that will never fly in America. Right or wrong, that will never wash. We have Joran's mother on TV today whining that its a govt's conspircacy, she been watching too much American CNN. Her son has changed his story how many times and was last to be seen with girl.

Who really thinks he does not know what happened to Natalee, I mean really?

GuyWdog[/quote]
I agree 100%.  If you are innocent, your parent wouldn't suggest you "saying nothing" (although an attorney knowing you committed a crime might...hmmm?) when a parent is at your doorstep at 3am looking for their missing daughter.  I just can't image ANY reason for them to lie OR to say nothing, unless they were trying to cover their behinds about something.[/quote]

I believe that the exact works Papa VDS said to his son when confronted by Beth H were in Dutch but translate into "Joran, don't say another word!".
Now remember that Joran was giving Beth H some attitude & thumping his chest.- so Papa VDS' telling him to shut up may have been an attempt to stop him from mouthing off to Beth H! Sometimes context is everything.

yes I have.

OK, if we are gonna think along those lines, which i think is fairly sensible to some extent, then how about anorexia? Maybe she was anorexic, and had a heart attack..which alot of girls suffering from that do..I.E., Karen Carpenter...maybe ....

Interviews with the law community in Aruba tonight all say the are in shock over his arrest.  They all say he was a quiet, bright man who was well respected.

if it was insulin they would have put it on the missing poster as they would for any medication that  she would need to stay alive.  The medication aspect bothers me.  Why is it such a secret?

Red - I think it's completely possible that Joran really does not know what happened to Natalee and that that is why he is "not cracking" under interrogation. I wouldn't swear to it but I think it's definitely possible - and in fact hangs together better than most theories in terms of the timeline, etc. just mho

COVER STORY !!!!!  He knew something would happen to her ????
How-- why .. We are talking crime free Aruba plus the addition of    ( obviously not needed ) security guards and cameras.

pms/cramps/airsick/gas/bloating
why is this really important???
what would be your take if she brought condoms??

new thread please for condom theory

Wasn't Natalee's passport, ID and money found in her room at the HI?

condoms, I would think she was pretty smart. As far as the others, they make sense as well.

because some people respect a persons right to medical privacy...

Why is her medication so damned important? What if she was on Prozac... and I highly doubt the girl was on BC and if she was that  her mother knew . And if she was on BC, this means what?

I agree 100%.  If you are innocent, your parent wouldn't suggest you "saying nothing" (although an attorney knowing you committed a crime might...hmmm?) when a parent is at your doorstep at 3am looking for their missing daughter.  I just can't image ANY reason for them to lie OR to say nothing, unless they were trying to cover their behinds about something.[/quote]

I believe that the exact works Papa VDS said to his son when confronted by Beth H were in Dutch but translate into "Joran, don't say another word!".
Now remember that Joran was giving Beth H some attitude & thumping his chest.- so Papa VDS' telling him to shut up may have been an attempt to stop him from mouthing off to Beth H! Sometimes context is everything.[/quote]

Why would an 18 year old girl who doesn't date much be taking b.c. pills. . .and, really, do you think if that is what her meds were, her mother would allude to them to the press.  Duh.

Red wrote:



If they hav no evidence for instance ... that`s what I mean then they have to let them go it`s our law I can`t help it.

And as far as we think we know ho many times he changed his story all we think we know is from mediasources!


I have an open mind on this case, I have not seen any evidence what so ever so leaving a girl on the beach and lies does not make you a murderer.

If the medication was fatal or would have really bad side effects under certain conditions, X, GHB, alcohol, then it would be very important.

Yes, but this isnt about some HIPPA law, this is about a missing girl who may need medicine, such as insulin, to live...seems logical if that were the case, that it WOULD be put on a poster..I mean,why worry about medical privacy when the rest of your life is being plastered all over the world??

-melrose- Most if not ALL Medications react very differently with Alchohol, and everyone I have ever taken has advised to NOT drink Alchohol while taking ANY Meds. IMHO I am leaning towards an accidental death in which she told Jorn she was going back to her room and maybe somehow wandered off adock or somthing. Either that or she is hiding from what she thinks is being embarassed...HOPEFULLY this is the case that she is a run-a-way. I pray for this to be true...In my other thread I said there is way too much death talk on the board.....it seems to me to be a death watch, and then a lynching...

guyWdog

Exactly.  It doesn't mean anything.  I don't think the meds are being brought up for a purpose-->It's not that important.

He definitely knows Red!!  maybe he just couldn't implicate daddy in some
how providing cover-up..now maybe joran will see truth as his way out.

I doubt that her mother is going to refer to birth control pills as "her medication."  It could be any number of things realistically from allergies to who knows what.

Well what if she voluntarily took x? And then died? During consensual sex? What then?

Didn't some say she was a perfectionist? Don't people with anorexia tend to be ? Just throwing questions out there.

alcohol that is why, but it still does not excuse foul play. No matter what the med was, if there was a med. Bottom line

On a hunch, I got out my old record player and Lynyrd Skynyrd albums.  I played Free Bird in reverse and sure enough it details how the real Natalee was killed in a car crash in London in 1973 and the girl in Aruba was an imposter.  So we've established that Natalee had questionable taste in music but how does this fit in with her disappearance?  Not meaning to make light of recent events but I think it more likely that the reference simply signifies her leaving home and moving on with her life.

I agree, the type of med could be very important - now and at trial.  Also, a 17 year old who received advice not only from his parent, but from his parent/judicial official. . .probably really hard for a court to get much of a conviction, ya know.

yes, they do...which is part of the reason they fall into that whole cycle...very good point

Unless the medication was "vanishing cream"  :lol:
(sorry...couldn't help myself)

it's not why she was taking the medicine, rather what the effects would be combined with other substances.

I believe that the exact works Papa VDS said to his son when confronted by Beth H were in Dutch but translate into "Joran, don't say another word!".
Now remember that Joran was giving Beth H some attitude & thumping his chest.- so Papa VDS' telling him to shut up may have been an attempt to stop him from mouthing off to Beth H! Sometimes context is everything.[/quote][/quote]

I keep goofing up replies...
NANCY DREW'S REPLY BEGINS HERE.....

My thoughts originally were that if a kid is missing in the middle of the night...and another family/kid can help fill in the blanks on that missing person...they would naturally do so immediatly.  HOWEVER, I do think anyone with a law degree might have a different view...guilty or innocent.  

I'm struggling with this one...it's a fascinating situation..a father who is a judge...which was explained tonight is far different legally than a regular dad giving a kid advice....Paulas comments to Joran could be considered  official "legal advice"...

Trying to sort it all out...

Then Joran would probably have called the police like any normal person would have.  And he would have confessed by now also.

NH doesn't even look close to being anorexic... and so what if she was. What if she was a voluntary anorexic, who lovedx and loved to drink and loved to have sex with strange boys. What sayeth you now?

Yes. To abandon someone who is in danger (while you were able to help) is a criminal offence and if the person dies, may lead to up to 10 years in jail if I recall correctly.

cramps, acne. I did, and I was a virgin. It happens, but does not excuse  foul play

That's where the Ran away theory comes from.....

God, I would hope so, to do that is almost as bad as killing them ones self. Remember the woman who left the man she hit in her windshield?

I know we discuss this every night but I know that I've told my kids that if questioned by the cops, they are to say yes sir and no sir and that's about it. Offer no info, etc .... that's because I took legal courses and it was drummed into us - you can say the most innocent thing, the most true thing and yet find yourself in very bad situations.

And I think the VDSs may have thought Natalee was just another american teen who got too drunk or something at the time the family arrived (suggested by the kick her butt statement as well) then they would not react in 'gee, this is an emergency - tell everything you know" mode.

Am I the only one who thinks that all these officials are looking for someone to pin this murder on?  Seems to me that it would be real easy if they could find a suspect who was "not all there"?

However, I will never believe that Natalee would run away, especially being that she could leave on her own free will at 18.  I no longer think that she is alive.  As for PVDS, it seems he did contribute to covering up whatever did happen that night.  And in my own opinion, this was no accident.  What worries me is:  Is Natalee the only one?    

As a daughter, I can say that I would be very grateful that I had parents who were as persistent in their search for me.  Especially, parents who would not go home without me.  The search without surrender is an action that could never be measured in words.  God Bless

Huh?  How is that indicative of someone running away?

Exactly how does it hang together with a time line? Father picks him up at 11pm only for son to leave and go to C&C's w/o dad's knowledge. Papa VDS can not provide alibi for son. Son has lied more than once that we know of with what happened that night. Son admits he was last one alone with her and miraculously just left her on the beach by herself.

Mother claims her son is a choir boy yet according to Greta tonight, dad & son were in casino gambling. ??? Father knowingly brings son into the casino's at 17? Just do not buy it that he does not know.

Why would dad tell him to be quiet?

NOOOOOO!!!!!! ;)

On topic: Going through those tickle sites again tonight I noticed two things commonly mentioned. One, easy enough: the Marriott parties.  The other, maybe a cultural slang thing that differs from area to area -- trippin.  Is LSD as popular a recreational drug in Aruba as it is in the US, and might that not be an obvious source for "something bad" happening?

No, did not think if that...actually what are the chances both are virgins?  We know both sides claim these are good son/daughter.  You know saving it for marriage etc?  I digress...The only thing that worries me is the fact that Joran walks back home that is amazing.  In Aruba, no one want to walk too far.  

My speculation:

1. if Joran did find himself in a murder and accidental death, and called his father, we would have to check PVDS statement against the cell phone statement. (Time line is the mantra here.).
2. Don;t know how far that beach was from his Montana house...12 min driving, that that would be what 30-45 walk, in a pitch dark aruba road...not sure how dark tho...Don;t live there..
3. Verify if the next morning he went to school, verify verify, bring in eyewitness, school teachers, school schedule, that would put a time line where if Joran killed Nat, a logical time end for that day.
4. Verify what PVDS did during that 2-6am Monday 31 time frame...this is to see if he was sleeping or made a few calls to cover up Jorans dilemma. Also verify if he went to work that day.  I wonder who brings Joran to school...Oh they did have exams that week no? Maybe the father drove him...especially exams would set a time benchmark.
5. Find whereabouts of Steve Croes, since he was access to boats, a like way to dump a body..then they need to find alibi s of SGC.  
6. Question also any other brother or sister of all the suspect to see how it differ from the time line chart.

Um why would you run away and leave your clothes money etc.  And how could a girl who had run away stay hidden for so long on a small island like aruba, especially given that she doesn't know it very well.  And if she ran away then why did Joran et al lie?  Doesn't add up.

Oh I see DT... 17 yr old boy meets strange girl, who loves x, booze and sex and dies during a romp on the sand... he immediately calls 911  :roll:

my mom would and i'm 34.

The only reasons I can think of why people are interested in her medication:

- medication's reaction to alcohol and/or date rape drugs
- if she is alive, will not having her medicine be a big problem for her?

Sometimes young women or girls go on bc pills to regulate their periods

I too temd to think her death may have been accidental.  I know from my experience when I am taking medication and I have  a drink and i'm fine then I will do both at the same time.  Maybe that is why Nat continued to drink without worrying, but on the last night something else was added to the mix that became fatal.

I believe her Passport and the balance of her money was found. Not her ID.

The reason I brought up asthma medication:  It seems that if you use asthma medication,,,ruffies can depress breathing..and of course the night air can effect asthma as well..Just a thought,, as Beth mentioned it "All her luggage, passport, money and her medication was in her room"

Or maybe she does drugs. (ducking, stopping, dropping and rolling, trying to dodge the bullets). I know, I know......but it's a possibility..One of my best friends, well off financially, Sunday school teacher, married to a physician, she is a nurse, they have two children, boy then girl, the perfect family....is now in drug rehab. No one knew for a long while except one person that suspected only because of one particular circumstance that happened.

No NO No...I do not think Natalee was on coke.. I'm just saying it happens. AND, unfortunately, that it can easily happen to overachievers as well as the rest of us slugs.    :cry:

Yeah, I do not see that either..murder and hiding the body would be one of the premise one has to go inorder to fit the puzzle.

I'm so confused.  I think it was accidental but I cannot understand why he wouldn't confess...unless his father was able to convinced him the body will never be found.

What would be her motive for running away anyway?  She just graduated, was apparently having the time of her life, well right up until she hooked up with Joran, and was set to go off to college and really begin her life.

If I knew someone was dying I would immediately call 911 (or whatever they do in aruba)  doesn't matter what the situation was.  How would he know she loves booze x etc. he just met her?  

If he did dispose of the body he would have needed help, so when these boys are facing murder charges why not just confess that she died accidently? I sure as hell wouldn't risk going to jail to help my friend cover up an accidental death.

I believe the comment about the missing guy was made by Greta, in her first 'exclusive' this week - the night she walked the island. She said in her intro that there were many unfounded rumors flying around on the ground in Aruba, then spoke of a person who was supposedly on Natalee's flight who had not left the island, something to that effect, then she moved right on to the next thing. I'm pretty sure I'm remembering that right. She emphasized that it was one of many rumors flying around. Hope that helps :)

And I think that a lot of people are too eager to put the blame on someone....!!

It feels so wrong ,but hey I have my own opinion just as you all do :wink:

I don`t believe in people tried with sensational mediahypes and judge and sentence out of courts..... by public opinions!

So I sure as ....  hope that the LE ìn aruba do there jobs as the DUTCH law requires without the pressure from the US or anybody

that was so twisted/sick...the morning after nightmare  for both

If I took my $$, passport and ID, they might think I did.

address?

Oh my - anorexia, drug problems, condoms, Jug bashing, key man insurance?  I'm sure there are more, I've just forgotten them after reading the last 20 pages.

I hate to say this, but I recommended this site to a friend of mine who Natalee babysits for.  What in the world is she going to think about this place?

Thanks to those of you staying realistic and positive, or at least supportive of this situation.

Open mind is fine, but keep eyes open as well. One is not perpetually in the wrong place at the wrong time without reason,.

My point was more that Aruba best find who did this. Lets say it was accidental death hypothetically, a person just does not disappear. An unsolved disappearance will affect Aruba more than if this does turn out to be a suspected murder as the police said today.

Except there is absolutely nothing in Natalee's past behavior that indicates she would contimplate running away....nothing.

I don't remember anything about Greta's reporting that another student did not return???????????

I dunno, I do have to say this one Arubian female spokesperson oh 3 nights ago on Hannity and Combs, was so cute and had an adorable arubian english accent. :wink:

If tonight a cop came to my door and said my son was last seen with a girl from England, Russia, Canada or Turkey ( mind you, that would be hard as he is in Iraq) I would have my son tell everything he knows, and I mean everything. Reason being, if the shoe was on the other foot, I would want a parent to do the same.
This happened to my sister, her boyfriend's parents knew where they were hiding when they ran away--he was 19 and she was 16----they said nothing! Finally about 2 weeks later, sis called a friend and the gig was up. I had never seen my Dad cry until the night they could not find sis.
To do less, is inhumane. If my son had some criminal involvement in a girl's disappearance, then he would have to face whatever the legal system had in store for him with legal counsel.
We went thru this with a vandalism issue, my son told the cops what he did, the other boys involvement came out eventually, and the legal system did it's thing. Actions take responsibility. Trust me, it was one of the hardest things I ever did to MAKE him come clean with LE, but it was the right thing to do. It changed his life and running buddies.

Thanks to you too,,,I have tried to keep the facts straight,,,only what we know,,,and that is a timeline from 1 am until Joran went to school...
We do not know what the LE knows,,,the boys could very well have told them exactly what happened.. My heart goes out to the family,,and hope they do not read this blog....

Her ID was found in her room?  She did not have it with her when she went out that evening?

as not to cause suspicion that i ran away.
she had help from locals.
because he knew what she was planning.
and knew case would die down, as most missing persons do.

LilOrphan - teens here (New England) say "trippin'" to mean flipping out as in "she was really trippin' coz he went out with so-and-so"

Red - I don't see enough time that night for Joran and Dad to pull together a murder and dispose of body ... it just seems off (how's that for serious reasoning! I think I'm getting tired - sorry. I think I need to go back to something I posted earlier where I had this all figured out coz my brain will not recreate it now)

Good night all - Pray for Natalee and her family. They are supposed to be a fund raiser tomorrow for her in MB.

See you all tomorrow ...

You definately don't want to go to Yahoo message boards..it goes nowhere fast.

hmmmm

WHAT IF...the LE put PVDS in jail to smoke out someone else?? Like they did by letting the trio go in th beginning..to follow. bug..etc.??. Maybe someone else involved will be bragging that they got away with something>>??

good point about questioning siblings....
and yes roads are very dark leaving hotel area/anywhere not main road is scary..in a car alone nevermind on foot.

I don't think it was another student.  It was just someone else on that same flight.

>>Wasn't Natalee's passport, ID and money found in her room at the HI?

I read/saw she had her ID on her, passport in the room. BTW, one can fly into & out of Aruba (US) w/ a US driver's license & a birth certificate. A notarized copy worked for me with some persuassion at the ATL airport leaving, then upon leaving Aruba airport, they didn't look twice. ;) Pre 9/11...

I was thinking the same thing :D

Not a student, another tourist,  He was on ths plane with MB students and stayed at the Holiday Inn, just like Natalee.

I wonder if he witnessed treachery...

When kids go to a bar, they take money and an ID...
Nothing odd about that...it's routine.

yes apparently, the time of her life.....you don't know how she felt inside...maybe she wanted to travel afar after high school not attend UofA

He plays cards, and so far, my "impression" is he does it well.

her passport was in her room at the HI
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,159252,00.html


so the point is moot and another rumor disspelled about the passport--she probably had her ID with her to go to the bars, I would.

So let me get this straight, he meets her at a hotel casino that night.  ANd somewhere in this period he decides to help her runaway for whatever reason.  I'm sorry but I don't know anyone who would put their family through hell, who would sit in jail for 3 weeks being interogated 11 hrs a day, and risking his fathers reputation just to help a girl run away, especially not one he just met that day (or even two days ago).  

Also Natalee's face is extremely well known by now, if I was helping her hide and saw that 150000 reward she'd be on the first plane to aruba.

Actually, I post here because this board stays really clean.  Just bcuz something doesn't fit in with your opinion, doesn't mean it isn't right.  I never said anorexia.  But I do know that 110 pounds on a 5' 4" frame is rather thin.  10 years ago when I was 110 on a 5'2" frame, people kept telling me to put bricks in my pockets in case a strong wind came.  And a smaller body has a difficult time handling the alcohol and the medication.  If drugs were added too, it could be lethal.  I guess I would like to believe that this wasn't a cold-blooded murder from lack of anger management.  And I do believe that Natalee wasn't used to partying like this.

http://www.planethuff.com/darkside/

Please go see the recent pictures of Joran on this site.

G`nite all, getting a headache again..... :wink:

Later all

You know her well, can you help me gather some insight?

[/quote]
Interviews with the law community in Aruba tonight all say the are in shock over his arrest.  They all say he was a quiet, bright man who was
well respected.[/quote]

Ted Bundy was a bright man too.

HannieC...I hope so, also.  For the USA, The Netherlands and for the nation of Aruba.

The nipple pulling is something to be desired and then he's passed out-------

thanx..maybe i'm not nuts...just banannas!!  :roll:

http://www.planethuff.com/darkside/

Some looks at Joran

Actually, when you travel in some countries, you don't have to carry your actual passport at all times.  Because they are often stolen and have a very quick street value, you are advised to carry multiple copies of your passport with you, but to keep your real passport locked in your room.  This is probably the case in Aruba.

No, hmmmm... having her ID helps to leave the island.

Interviews with the law community in Aruba tonight all say the are in shock over his arrest.  They all say he was a quiet, bright man who was
well respected.[/quote]

Ted Bundy was a bright man too.[/quote]

Yeah but Bundy had about 25 people burried in his back yard... :shock:

KackyLacky - sorry, I'm sleepy and typing/reading slow -

on the talking to police issue - the one time my daughter did something that I knew she had done, I called the police and told her to get ready to answer questions (she had driven my car into the driveway before she had her license and hit the neighbor's car - the neighbor's said "don't get her into trouble, she didn't mean to do it" but my take was she did it, she deals with it - and she did.

But if the cops showed up in the middle of the night with 5 wildeyed guys including Jug, I'd be very hesitant for her or my son to answer questions until I knew what was going on.

And remember, Joran offered to talk according to Jug - PVDS and Deepak were told him not to.

I do not like a hurried judgement, and surely not the pressure from the grieving family.   I have to confess that in the very beginning I had Joran as prime suspect.  It start changing after no confession and somewhat longer interrogation.  I know the family says that there needs to add more pressure, and that gets me annoyed, as if your saying torture.  It lends some sympathy to Joran. However I cannot square of the part he says he walked home after the beach.  If I was in Jorans corner I d say...that at the beach no sex was engaged for reasons of a: noone brought safe protection, and or I do not think one does sex right on the beach.. if that is the case I d check Jorans clothes and Hamper at home for beach sand.  So no sex, a friendly walk on the beach, they part because a: Joran needs to go home to get ready for exams, and Nat is probably tired and goes to HI...however far ithat might be ....maybe Joran walks her to that point maybe not, Id have to know the nearest intersection from that Marriot beach to the first avail street that will got to Montana.

Please you guys have to see this if you haven't already- it was updated at 8:05 tonight

so she accidentally disappeared?? into the water?? 1/2 truth maybe...

Interviews with the law community in Aruba tonight all say the are in shock over his arrest.  They all say he was a quiet, bright man who was
well respected.[/quote]

Ted Bundy was a bright man too.[/quote]

WHAT AM I DOING WRONG WITH THE REPLY?
NANCY DREW'S POST STARTS HERE...

That's a gross overstatement...Bundy wasn't respected as a long time member of the legal community as a good man...quiet and soft spoken.  I'm not defending him...but, hate to see such nasty statements without knowing all the facts.

getting ready to sign off here as well but that is my point,

why did the dad not let his son help the missing girls parents? I just don't understand it at all in a human way. As far as deepak, that just makes me think he knows more than he wants anyone else to know even his mother for that fact.

Shows what I know :\

Helped her, not still helping her. Dad is in the system. Im so arrogant, I tell people my dads a judge, i throw my weight around, im 17 in a bar and casino. i know i can say i dropped her off and my friends will vouch.

But it is comprehensible that his Lawyer Father and He are pimping out American girls??? anything is possible....

Im waiting for the movie. By then all those kids  (maybe) will have moved out from mom and dad and then we will find out what really went on on that trip. Unless National Enquierer buys all those security tapes and beats them to the punch.

Recall what one of the "experts" related on the Greta? show. There was one conviction of murder when a body wasn't part of the proof, and that was in The Netherlands...I believe she said there was such overwhelming evidence that the court/judge convicted the person.  

...and we have no idea what evidence there is, and we have no confession.  If this goes the distance, the 120/160 days left...

I guess your point is poor Aruba if they don't or if they have an unsolved murder.

As long as there's no body he has a good hand.

>>No, hmmmm... having her ID helps to leave the island.

Right WW, though I don't believe that theory (voluntarily at least), I talked myself out of US Im. in ATL with a sorry-ass copy of my birth certificate and a GA DL. It seriously took me an hour & almost missed my flight w/ my co-workers, but it was, at least then, possible. Note this was in 1990 and really had nothing to do w/ Aruban Authorities.

I think the week of Natalee missing someone on the beach heard someone a man calling for help in the deep sea...another tourist say it and alerted the beach guard. .. boats were sent but noonewas found...later that week a death body was found...I will see if I can pull that article from diarioaruba.com

Right, but obviously his dad's status isn't very important given his arrest.  If he knew that she ran away he would just go out and say it to end the pain he is causing his family.  

I still don't get why he would help her initially after knowing her for only a few hours, doesn't really make sense.

Even if Joran confessed at this point, anyone that understands law would say that his confession was under duress. I mean 100 hours of interrogation with no lawyer present? :roll:

I imagine she had her ID in her pocket in case she was carded.

(...T)he individual stated that Joran often bragged to him of his many "sexual conquests" resulting from the use of an illicit substance slipped into a woman's drink and the Aruban individual suggested Joran was a "psychopath."

I doubt that the source of these statements is a certified psychologist, but if he is repeating these types of statements to individuals in and around the investigation, it will likely come out and be proven or disproven in any potential trial.

That is not comprehensible or possible.

There is NO WAY Natalee "ran away"...........NO WAY.

And, I will not be surprised to learn that this so called "Judge" is involved in far more sinister things than sitting behind a bench.

Time will tell.

Yeah, they'd really believe him now...

may not make sense, thats why its a theory..keep putting holes in it, that helps me.

too sleepy here to keep up tonight -

good typing with all of you and hope there's good news soon

...coco

of course.

did anyone watch Larry King tonight? they showed a teenage boy w/dark hair saying "Natalee was asking if Joran was going to be at C&C's later".  who was that?  they never said anything else about him or had his name under his picture.  was it someone from MBHS or one of Joran's friends?

Thank you.

Ted Bundy was a bright man too.[/quote]

WHAT AM I DOING WRONG WITH THE REPLY?
NANCY DREW'S POST STARTS HERE...

That's a gross overstatement...Bundy wasn't respected as a long time member of the legal community as a good man...quiet and soft spoken.  I'm not defending him...but, hate to see such nasty statements without knowing all the facts.[/quote]

Your logical thought process regarding criminal activity and cover up is flawed with compassion for the criminals themself.

Ted Bundy was a bright man too.[/quote]

WHAT AM I DOING WRONG WITH THE REPLY?
NANCY DREW'S POST STARTS HERE...

That's a gross overstatement...Bundy wasn't respected as a long time member of the legal community as a good man...quiet and soft spoken.  I'm not defending him...but, hate to see such nasty statements without knowing all the facts.[/quote]

KACKYLACKY's post below
actually about Bundy.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/notorious/bundy/2.html?sect=1
so as an adult he was thought of as bright and charming. Oh the evil it hid.

Im gathering that wonder woman is one to be ignored here, just from my first glance in reading.

Thank Razzy, will remember that.

thanks klacky lacky, ive studies many serial killers and murderers enough to know this Vander Sloot kid is exhibiting strong signs towards sociopathic behavior.

Maybe try forming your opinions after just a first glance.....


why DO people do that?

Nikki.. you still on??

She has been posting for awhile with some insightful opinions.  You should stick around.  :roll:

No, not at all, she is just trying to stay pratical while the rest of us conjure up conspiracy theories.

LOL just what I thought.

http://www.planethuff.com/darkside/       please  RazzyBerry go look at this update of pictures of Joran

Your "theory" is full of holes, and that's why the "Judge" sits in jail.

LOL...I love it when someone pops in and makes me laugh out loud!!!

There is absolutely no factual basis for a comparison between Paulas Van Der   Sloot and Ted Bundy!!!!

Yes, I have compassion, but I also but I also believe in fair justice.  The charges against him right now aren't even for murder...much less serial murder.

Not even close.

And Bingo's theory is......

Just an FYI, about a week ago there was this blog of Joran's up, it has since been deleted, if anyone can translate good, this would be a good blog to investigate.

http://www.wawblog.aw/Joran/ps/JOURNAL/VIEWWEBSITE?foneblog=1118712519153

She certainly shouldn't be ignored or treated poorly and she has given some valuabe info to this board, but I really doubt that Natalee running away is a practical theory at this point.

I would add that Deepaks emails do not support her running away either. You can not believe them and that she ran away.

it's my "hopeful" theory....I still hope.....

I read that site tonight monkey, there were 2 pictures on another site I found a little alarming, the one where a belt is tied around someones neck and just the overall size of this guy at 17 years old.  Hes almost a physical freak of nature.  The hormones raging in a guy that size at his age is alot to handle.  

There was a comment made by his mother also that struck me as pathological.  She said that she asked Joran why he was even out that night and he said " mom if you never would have gone to Holland then I would have never thought about going out" .  Right there he is shifting blame for his behavior on his mother trying to make her feel guilty.  That kind of behavior he might have learned from his father.

PVDS is being charged with making a different statement to Greta than he made to the police.

The funny thing about this case is that there is never any evidence. Were always back to square one... :roll:

We all do, and believe me Id much rather have your theory turn out to be true as opposed to most of the others on this board.

Well they have new  pictures of him pulling another guys nipple and the other guy doing the same thing to Joran and it shows him passed out