http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1206/25/ijvm.01.htmlJANE VELEZ-MITCHELL
Penn State Cover-Up of Sandusky`s Abuse?Aired June 25, 2012 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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And we`re going to begin tonight with the latest developments in the conviction of Jerry Sandusky. The spotlight now on Penn State and how that university will handle what many expect to be an avalanche of lawsuits from the victims.
And today Jerry Sandusky told his attorney that he wants out of isolation in jail?
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VELEZ-MITCHELL (voice-over): Tonight, now is it time for Penn State to pay in the wake of the overwhelming avalanche of guilty verdicts for Jerry Sandusky? A laser is now focused on Penn State as critics say this institution let a predator use their locker room to sexually abuse his young victims. Who knew what, when? Was in a cover-up? If so, could more charges be brought against others connected to this prestigious university? Tonight, we`ll hear from two victims and a juror.
Plus, I`m taking your calls.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What do you have to say about the verdict?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you have anything to say to the victims?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: From day one, they believed these victims. You could feel the emotion. There was no doubt about it, that they were telling the truth.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When I looked at him during the verdict, I could see tears running down his eyes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And when the counsel read, she sobbed in silence, and his eyes just filled with tears.
JOE AMENDOLA, ATTORNEY FOR JERRY SANDUSKY: Jerry had always wanted to testify.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All these people see it. They tell everybody in the locker room, the janitor, the manager of the janitors. Nobody reports it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Someone was talking in the football hallways at not just Penn State, but various universities.
LINDA KELLY, PENNSYLVANIA ATTORNEY GENERAL: Concealing or attempting to minimize this type of crime is unacceptable.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t think the university should have to, you know, suffer from his actions.
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VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight the drama and the fallout over the Jerry Sandusky guilty verdicts. Was there a terrible conspiracy to cover up the former Penn State football coach`s disgusting sexual assaults on boys in the university`s locker rooms?
Good evening. Jane Velez-Mitchell coming to you live tonight.
The crowd reached a feverish pitch outside the Pennsylvania courthouse as the Sandusky verdict was announced. Guilty! Guilty, guilty, guilty on 45 of 48 counts of child sexual abuse. Listen to this.
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VELEZ-MITCHELL: Cheers from the crowd. Sandusky looking wobbly on his feet as the jury foreman read the verdict, repeating "guilty" for all the three (ph) charges over a course of almost four minutes.
His bond immediately revoked, he was hauled off to jail to await sentencing.
One juror spoke out to NBC about how he knew they had made the correct decision to convict this child molester. Listen to this from "The Today Show."
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Today, it was just confirmation, again. You know, I saw -- I looked at him during the reading of the verdict. And just the look on his face, no real emotion. Just kind of accepting, you know, because he knew it was true.
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VELEZ-MITCHELL: So, with Sandusky behind bars, what`s next for Penn State, the university some say helped Sandusky cover up the rapes of young boys?
What do you think? Call me: 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1-877-586-7297. I want to hear from you.
Straight out to "Patriot News" reporter Sara Ganim, who won a Pulitzer Prize for her ground-breaking work on this story.
Glad to have you with us tonight, Sara. What are the -- let me first of all, let`s talk about some breaking news. I understand that we`ve gotten word -- is this true? -- that Jerry Sandusky doesn`t want to be in isolation?
SARA GANIM, REPORTER, "PATRIOT NEWS" (via phone): That`s right. His attorney, Karl Rominger, told me that he was the first person to be able to go visit Jerry Sandusky in the county jail where he`s being held. And Karl Rominger told me that Jerry Sandusky was asking him, "When do I get out of isolation?"
Now, he`s only there by a judge`s order right now, so that he can undergo a mental-health evaluation by a psychologist to determine if he is suicidal. That`s why he`s on so-called suicide watch.
But Rominger said that Jerry -- he said something to the effect of, you know, "I don`t think I`m suicidal. But if I stay in the cell for a couple more days, I`m going to go nutty."
He really wants to, in Rominger`s words, be able to get out and walk around. That`s what he said: he wants to be able to walk around.
When I asked him if he was concerned about the safety of Mr. Sandusky in such a setting, in general population, he said no. He said the jail had really good policies and procedures, and that the block that he would be on, Jerry Sandusky, where his cell would be, only has a very few amount of inmates.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you know, it`s fascinating because I read that at one point he was incarcerated, the fellow jail mates were taunting him at night by singing that "Just Another Brick in the Wall" song. "Teacher, teacher," whatever that is.
So apparently, this guy`s got a thick skin. And I guess we`ve learned from you, Sara, that A, he doesn`t seem very suicidal, and B, he`s more concerned about his own wellbeing, which is totally par for the course.
Katherine Hall, you are a spokesperson for abused children. This guy is already thinking about his own comforts. It boggles my mind. Because I try to put myself in his shoes and think what shame, what humiliation, what disgrace, Happy Valley cheering his convictions. And guess what? He`s already thinking about his own personal comforts.
KATHERINE HALL, SPOKESPERSON FOR ABUSED CHILDREN: Well, what we`ve seen is a real collective outpouring and encouragement from survivors nationwide. So at RAINN, we`re really focused on increasing hotline traffic we`ve had. We`ve seen over 30 percent increase in people coming forward and getting help. Primarily amongst those who are self-identifying as male survivors.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let me just say this. What I was talking about, John Lieberman, is that this guy is a complete and utter narcissist that -- here he is, the shame. I experience shame by vicariously just hearing that cheer, and yet, the guy is already worried about, "Oh, am I going to be able to walk around?"
JOHN LIEBERMAN, INVESTIGATIVE REPORT: He wants rec time. He wants time in the yard. He wants better meals. He wants access to the canteen, like the general population.
And there`s more, Jane. He also told his attorney today that he wants people to know that he`s not guilty. That was the quote to his attorney that his attorney relayed to the media. On the heels of this jury speaking so loudly on behalf of victims, he`s proclaiming his innocence again.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, this is absolutely incredible to me. And it really dovetails with this entire sense of entitlement, this man walking through this case, virtually laughing, smiling during this horrific testimony of boys that he raped. And it really is a study in arrogance, entitlement, malignant narcissism, which are probably traits of a pedophile.
Now that the trial is over, the real trouble begins for Penn State University. There are scores of victims waiting to sue the university in civil court, some of whom are not even part of this case. Listen to the mother of one victim who spoke to "GMA."
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Even after therapy he doesn`t feel comfortable saying what happened to him to me. He`s a strong one. He`s a survivor, and he`ll get through it.
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VELEZ-MITCHELL: Penn State now says they`re inviting victims to meet with them so they can privately, expeditiously, and fairly address the victims` concerns and compensate them for claims relating to the university. In plain old English, they want to settle out of court.
So Sara Ganim, again, you`ve broken this story. Remember, Penn State has $1.8 billion in endowment. How is this going to play out? How do you put a dollar figure on pain and suffering caused by Jerry Sandusky? What do you know? What`s the inside story here?
GANIM: Well, I can`t answer that question, obviously. If it went to civil court, that would be for a jury to decide.
But I can tell you this. I`ve been doing some research on it. You look at the civil claim payout, the average payout in the Catholic Church sex abuse scandal, which has some parallels to the story. Same kind of hierarchy where there is some knowledge of abuse, and again, a serial nature. The average payout in those cases was about $3 million per survivor.
Now Penn State, on the day of the verdict, put a statement out that said that they wanted to proactively meet with the victims in this case and talk about a settlement outside of court and compensating them for the abuse that they endured.
And when I talked to some of the attorneys who are representing these victims -- I talked to two of them, and both said they thought it was a good idea. One of them, however, said, now is not the right time.
They want to wait and see what the internal investigation report, which is due out sometime either late summer or early fall, is going to say. Because that will give a better understanding. They think it will give a better understanding of how much Penn State knew and what exactly Penn State did, before they have any kind of sit-down and start talking about any kind of payout.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let me say this, Holly Hughes, criminal defense attorney, former prosecutor, we`re going to get to the conspiracy, alleged, in a moment.
But is $3 million enough when this university -- per child -- and we`re just talking hypothetically, as Sara said. That`s sort of a track record in cases with some commonalities. I would think, given the -- just unbelievable facts of this case, that it would have to be a lot more when Penn State has a $1.8 billion endowment.
HOLLY HUGHES, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Absolutely. But it comes down to this. How much do these survivors still want to drag this through the legal process?
There is no amount of money in the world that will ever compensate these young men for what they were put through, because somebody was too chicken to do the right thing and call the authorities when they saw a baby being raped in the shower. So no, there`s no amount of money.
But they`re going to say, "Hey, you know what? I don`t want this to drag on in my life. I don`t want to go through three years of civil discovery. I don`t want to continue to have to give news interviews." Because there is no amount of money, because it`s a principle thing, you`ll see some of the victim -- survivors, excuse me, going ahead and saying, "You know what? Let me just get it over with."
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(MUSIC: PINK FLOYD`S "ANOTHER BRICK IN THE WALL")
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VELEZ-MITCHELL: ok, That from YouTube, The Pink Floyd song that fellow inmates were SUPPOSEDLY singing at Jerry Sandusky, taunting him at one point.
But no mind. Even though he has been convicted and he was supposedly on suicide watch, unh-uh, not so fast. He says he wants out of isolation, saying according to his lawyer, quote, "I don`t think I`m suicidal. I`m dealing with this. But if I have if I have to sit around in this cell for a few more days, I am going to go nutty."
Wow. This guy is already thinking about his own comforts, even as I was naive enough to think, "Oh, my gosh. Maybe he is suicidal, because this is such a shameful thing." No. I guess pedophiles don`t feel shame.
Was there a massive cover-up at Penn State? That`s the next big question. That`s what some are claiming. Listen to what one victim`s lawyer said.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How can a 55-year-old man in his position never get another job? Someone was talking in the football hallways at not just Penn State, but various universities, and we are going to be working very hard to get the truth out.
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VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Now we have two former Penn State officials, Gary Schultz and Tim Curley. They`re charged with lying to the grand jury about all of this, the allegations, and failing to inform cops. They`re now set for trial.
But get this: NBC News is now reporting that its sources claim there are e-mails indicating then-president of Penn State Graham Spanier knew of the allegations against Sandusky and allegedly had discussions about them, and reportedly, the decision was made that the main thing to do about Jerry Sandusky and for Jerry Sandusky was not to call authorities.
We were not able to reach Graham Spanier. He`s invited on our show any time. Our attempts to reach lawyers for Curley and Schultz were referred back to Penn State, which did not give us a response.
Bottom line: was there a conspiracy of silence? What do you know about these e-mails, Sara Ganim, if they are indeed existing?
GANIM: Well, this is what prosecutors say. They put these e-mails, the content of these e-mails, at least partially into court filings, and that`s how we know about them.
The prosecutors who are -- charged Curley and Schultz with perjury, in their response, Curley and Schultz basically made a motion to the court to have the case dismissed for lack of evidence. And in the response, they said, "Look, we have these e-mails, and this shows a pretty strong case against you."
And what the court filing says was there were e-mails between Schultz and Graham Spanier that showed they had a conversation and decided it would be humane not to report Jerry Sandusky to authorities. Now this is all not just hearsay but within the court documents.
But what I think is most interesting about that revelation is not necessarily the content of the e-mails, because we haven`t seen the entirety of them, and we don`t know the context. But the fact that prosecutors actually did not find them. It was the internal investigation at Penn State University that found those e-mails.
They were supposedly -- they were dated so far back, 2001, that they were thought at one point not to be able to be recovered. And they got a hold of some kind of technology and they were able to recover these lost e- mails. And they turned them over to the attorney general`s office.
So it was actually Penn State`s internal investigation that set them up.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Unbelievable. Wow. Great information, Sara.
Holly Hughes, former prosecutor, do you think others will face charges? You can`t have a conspiracy of one or two. Usually you can`t have a conspiracy, I guess, whatever the technical definition is. But usually there`s a bunch of people involved. And from what we`re hearing, lawyers may have even weighed the possibility of doing nothing.
HUGHES: Right. And you`re exactly right. You`re going to see a lot more people implicated and a lot more people charged. Think of -- this program, this football program is so important and it`s so vital, financially speaking, to this institution.
And basically, what the allegations are, Jane, is that they gave up children for money. That`s what they did. They didn`t want their program to be tainted or go down in flames, so they just continued to offer up children as lambs to the slaughter to a pedophile.
So yes, this is vast reaching. It`s going to -- we`re going to see a lot more people implicated. And it`s going to go a lot higher up than just the coaching staff. Because when you`re talking this much money to an institution, you know the higher ups had to have a say in that.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Check out my editorial on HLNTV.com about what I think Penn State should do to compensate these victims.
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VELEZ-MITCHELL: I am very excited to have with me tonight Tom Mesereau, criminal defense attorney, famous of course, for his successful defense of Michael Jackson on child molestation charges. There have been commonalities cited between that trial and this.
But the big difference, Tom, is you got your client completely acquitted, and this defendant, Jerry Sandusky, went down -- there was only three charges that he wasn`t found guilty of.
I was listening to you talking the other day when you said, "Don`t take this conviction for granted." So what are your thoughts now after we have this overwhelming victory by prosecutors?
TOM MESEREAU, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, clearly, the jury saw no way to go otherwise. I mean, it seems to me that they probably should have spent a longer period of time, I would think, with that many counts. But they seem as if they came to their own conclusions very, very quickly.
And it sounds like the prosecutors got a jump on him right away, and I don`t think the defense ever really caught up to them. In the Michael Jackson trial, my attitude was we have to really come out swinging right away, take some momentum from the prosecution, or we`re never going to catch up. And fortunately, it worked for us. But obviously, it didn`t work for Mr. Sandusky.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I`ve always said if I`m ever in trouble, I`m calling Tom Mesereau. I watched you in that courtroom, and you were brilliant. You took a case that was an open and shut case against, as everybody said, and you won completely.
Now, the likely basis of an appeal in the Sandusky case is ineffective assistance of counsel and the rush to have a speedy trial. Let`s listen to the defense attorney, Joe Amendola.
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AMENDOLA: Stay tuned. I mean, come on. It`s like a soap. You have to wait and see. I think it`s "General Hospital." It could be "All My Children."
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VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tom Mesereau, there`s the defense attorney joking about how this trial is like "All My Children." If they want to get an a successful appeal, maybe they should play the clip of the attorney, who`s kind of a goof ball, joking about a child molestation trial being like "All My Children"?
MESEREAU: Well, I think the comments are very inappropriate. They surprise me.
But they don`t surprise me as much as the comments while the jury was deliberating where he apparently said, "I`ll be shocked if it`s an acquittal. And I`ll have a heart attack if there`s an acquittal." I`ve never heard a defense lawyer make remarks like that. They seem very inappropriate to me.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Why do you think that there was such a different result in this case than in your case? Again, it`s child molestation. There are a number of accusers in both cases. They were very similar kinds of situations where people accused Michael Jackson of luring kids, using Neverland. In this case it was the Second Mile and Penn State and the football program.
So many commonalities, and yet, the verdicts couldn`t be more different.
MESEREAU: Well, you know, Jane, we did have time to investigate. We investigated the backgrounds of every single prosecution witness we could think of. We found all sorts of information that we used to attack their credibility and their motives.
And it may be that the defense in the Sandusky case needed a lot more time. I gather they filed a motion, asking to be relieved. under seal. And I suspect it talks about a lot of things they wanted to do and couldn`t do. So they may have a point, I don`t know. Every criminal defendant has a right to effective assistance of counsel at every stage of the proceeding. Pretrial and trial. So we`ll see what happens on appeal.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You really think there`s a chance for successful appeal here?
MESEREAU: Based on what little I know, and I`m in California. Not in the courtroom. I don`t think there`s much of a chance on appeal. Remember, an appeal is based on the transcript alone. You don`t bring in new evidence on appeal.
If the appeals don`t work, the defense can bring in new evidence that wasn`t there or wasn`t introduced effectively. I suspect they`re continuing the investigation and trying to find witnesses who they would like to have called to impeach the credibility of these accusers.
So you never know what`s going to happen in the future.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Tom, it is always a delight talking to you. And I know that you`re going to be talking Sandusky with Dr. Drew tonight at 9. So I`ll be hanging around. I hope our viewers do, as well, to watch it.
Always great to talk with you, Tom.
MESEREAU: Thanks for having me, Jane. I appreciate it.
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