Natalee Case Discussion #787 12/24/08 - 12/31/08

[Red]

What is wrong with you people? I am so sorry, I had to jump in.
How self righteous can you get? That is ridiculous. How dare you slander someone you don't even know.
OMG! Kyle walked away from his trip to Aruba with a funny feeling and expressed his feelings to people who love Natalee just the same as you all do...in the Freebirds Forum where it could be openly discussed amongst others with the same principals...those dedicated to justice for Natalee...how dare you question his integrity or the integrity of his daughter's name. What happened to you all? I just can't believe it.
Like it or not, I am friends with Jug Twitty. Like it or not, he CAN speak for Beth. Like it or not, I have copied and pasted every slanderous post you have made against Kyle and the crew of the Persistence. Believe it or not, Jug has made contact with Kyle and Kyle with Jug over this BS and I can assure you, Jug thinks this is all BS!!!! Make fun of the exclamation points if you must, I am just so disappointed in what is happening here. So is Jug, so is Kyle who busted his butt to bring Natalee home.
This is wrong what you are doing, so wrong!!! Trust me when I tell you Natalee's family members are aware of what you all have accused Kyle and the crew of the Persistence of, they have Kyle's email address and telephone number, and they have nothing but RESPECT for what that man did in Aruba. This nonsense has got to stop. How can you all be so mean and spitefull to people who put their everything into bringing Natalee home to her family?

How does one get onto that Freebird site?  I sure would like to discuss this case without having to worry about saying anything that will have people fill up two pages of the same quotes over and over and over again.

I have no idea, I was never asked...nor  am I offended by that. I don't know what everyone is talking about either when they speak of the "private forums" that have been created lately. Nor have I talked to Kyle in weeks. I was satisfied with what he told me after I spoke with him. He is what you all once thought he was...a very intelligent young man who threw his heart into Natalee's case just the same as all of us did.
I have real problem with Kermit. I know it will tick you off...but I have to speak my piece. If she had been honest and said..look...I am a member of Freebirds and Kyle was alarmed by some things that went down in Aruba and I want to share them with you because no one can dissect the truth like the Monkeys can...so I want to share his concerns with you. He can't due to confidentiality agreements but I feel the info is worth breaking my confidentiality agreement so here it is...then she would have my utmost respect. But that is not the way she chose to do it. Instread she took Kyle's concerns and turned them into some "conspiracy" that she "alone uncovered" and in the process...bastardized everything the members of the Persistence did.  I scream out and use my explanation points not out of some love for Kyle, but out of my own sense of right and wrong. I am sorry if you don't understand that.
Kyle owes you all nothing, he owes me nothing!! I didn't know the man when this all started but I have his email just the same as you all do and I respected him enough to send him a note and he respected me enough to answer. That is all!! Jeeze...can you all imagine what would have happened if you had given him the same consideration?

Confidentialty agreement?With whom?

Two...Kyle had a confidentiality agreement with the ship he was on...the Persitence...which is standard, and one with the Freebirds which Kermit agreed to when she joined. Is his career affected by what Kermit did? Absolutely!!! Did he try and cover up the finding of Natalee? No!! And just like Beth and Dave and Jug walked away from Aruba feeling as though "something went wrong" so did Kyle. And it was because of that feeling he joined the Freebirds and openly discussed with other members his concerns.

Confidentiality agreement on the internet? Internet confidentiality agreement is by its definition and oxymoron. The mere presence and existence of the internet and world wide web. Seriously. Does anyone think, really think, believe that there is remotely the idea of confidentiality on the internet? I hope not.

Every news outlet has their stories linked to and referenced on the internet. This very site is a corporation and yet has its data taken and disseminated. As for slander, lol, he better get in line as I think he is way at the end of that line when it comes to covering Natalee. When he gets his own hate site, maybe he can discuss slander.

The point being ... if anyone thinks a private site is private ... I have a bridge to sell ya. There is not a private site that has ever existed that we did not know what was being said.

[San]

How does one get onto that Freebird site?  I sure would like to discuss this case without having to worry about saying anything that will have people fill up two pages of the same quotes over and over and over again.

I'm sure you will be getting an email soon.  If not I guess you are stuck here with us people who have no principals and are nuts.

I stand with the nuts.

Well, that just proved my point.  Either you agree with the Kyle-bashing...or you might as well not post here anymore.  Sad,  Really sad.

I didn't prove any point.  Your post was unwarranted.  I have not bashed Kyle.  The only two people who I see bashing is Hotshot and ldstlou.

You're kidding, right?   People have trashed someone who posted here for weeks now, and MY post is unwarranted?  Please.

No I'm not kidding.  You made the post that was unwarranted.  Your words were uncalled for.  How many times has there been stuff posted over and over.  How many times have we said if you disagree then just skip the posts.  But no you made the smartass comment not me.

[ldstlou]

What is wrong with you people? I am so sorry, I had to jump in.
How self righteous can you get? That is ridiculous. How dare you slander someone you don't even know.
OMG! Kyle walked away from his trip to Aruba with a funny feeling and expressed his feelings to people who love Natalee just the same as you all do...in the Freebirds Forum where it could be openly discussed amongst others with the same principals...those dedicated to justice for Natalee...how dare you question his integrity or the integrity of his daughter's name. What happened to you all? I just can't believe it.
Like it or not, I am friends with Jug Twitty. Like it or not, he CAN speak for Beth. Like it or not, I have copied and pasted every slanderous post you have made against Kyle and the crew of the Persistence. Believe it or not, Jug has made contact with Kyle and Kyle with Jug over this BS and I can assure you, Jug thinks this is all BS!!!! Make fun of the exclamation points if you must, I am just so disappointed in what is happening here. So is Jug, so is Kyle who busted his butt to bring Natalee home.
This is wrong what you are doing, so wrong!!! Trust me when I tell you Natalee's family members are aware of what you all have accused Kyle and the crew of the Persistence of, they have Kyle's email address and telephone number, and they have nothing but RESPECT for what that man did in Aruba. This nonsense has got to stop. How can you all be so mean and spitefull to people who put their everything into bringing Natalee home to her family?

How does one get onto that Freebird site?  I sure would like to discuss this case without having to worry about saying anything that will have people fill up two pages of the same quotes over and over and over again.

I have no idea, I was never asked...nor  am I offended by that. I don't know what everyone is talking about either when they speak of the "private forums" that have been created lately. Nor have I talked to Kyle in weeks. I was satisfied with what he told me after I spoke with him. He is what you all once thought he was...a very intelligent young man who threw his heart into Natalee's case just the same as all of us did.
I have real problem with Kermit. I know it will tick you off...but I have to speak my piece. If she had been honest and said..look...I am a member of Freebirds and Kyle was alarmed by some things that went down in Aruba and I want to share them with you because no one can dissect the truth like the Monkeys can...so I want to share his concerns with you. He can't due to confidentiality agreements but I feel the info is worth breaking my confidentiality agreement so here it is...then she would have my utmost respect. But that is not the way she chose to do it. Instread she took Kyle's concerns and turned them into some "conspiracy" that she "alone uncovered" and in the process...bastardized everything the members of the Persistence did.  I scream out and use my explanation points not out of some love for Kyle, but out of my own sense of right and wrong. I am sorry if you don't understand that.
Kyle owes you all nothing, he owes me nothing!! I didn't know the man when this all started but I have his email just the same as you all do and I respected him enough to send him a note and he respected me enough to answer. That is all!! Jeeze...can you all imagine what would have happened if you had given him the same consideration?

Confidentiality agreement?With whom?

Two...Kyle had a confidentiality agreement with the ship he was on...the Persistence...which is standard, and one with the Freebirds which Kermit agreed to when she joined. Is his career affected by what Kermit did? Absolutely!!! Did he try and cover up the finding of Natalee? No!! And just like Beth and Dave and Jug walked away from Aruba feeling as though "something went wrong" so did Kyle. And it was because of that feeling he joined the Freebirds and openly discussed with other members his concerns.

So you are a Freebird?I was asking what confidentiality agreement you were breaking?Are we not talking about Kyle's own concern's regarding the Persistence from his own mouth??

I knew better than to have even tried. I don't know why I did. I am just walking away. I stated from the get go...I am not a member of any forum other than SM and Blogs for Natalee. I am what I am...nothing more...and no great insider info as Kermit claims. I was just a Monkey who was taken aback at the disrespect shown the members of the Persistence...who despite the criticism...just wanted to find Natalee..IMHO.

[texasmom]

Thank you Red, Klaas, and San!  

[Tamikosmom]

What is wrong with you people? I am so sorry, I had to jump in.
How self righteous can you get? That is ridiculous. How dare you slander someone you don't even know.
 
OMG! Kyle walked away from his trip to Aruba with a funny feeling and expressed his feelings to people who love Natalee just the same as you all do...in the Freebirds Forum where it could be openly discussed amongst others with the same principals...those dedicated to justice for Natalee...how dare you question his integrity or the integrity of his daughter's name. What happened to you all? I just can't believe it.

Like it or not, I am friends with Jug Twitty. Like it or not, he CAN speak for Beth. Like it or not, I have copied and pasted every slanderous post you have made against Kyle and the crew of the Persistence. Believe it or not, Jug has made contact with Kyle and Kyle with Jug over this BS and I can assure you, Jug thinks this is all BS!!!! Make fun of the exclamation points if you must, I am just so disappointed in what is happening here. So is Jug, so is Kyle who busted his butt to bring Natalee home.

This is wrong what you are doing, so wrong!!! Trust me when I tell you Natalee's family members are aware of what you all have accused Kyle and the crew of the Persistence of, they have Kyle's email address and telephone number, and they have nothing but RESPECT for what that man did in Aruba. This nonsense has got to stop. How can you all be so mean and spitefull to people who put their everything into bringing Natalee home to her family?

 

Lou ... everything I have posted is based on Kyle Kingman's own words ... Kyle's own words regarding what he observed regarding the happenings encompassing the Persistence undertaking.

Has Jug Twitty read a compilation of Kyle's posts?

Without Kyle's own words ... there would be no foundation to my contention that the Persistence undertaking betrayed justice for Natalee Holloway ... betrayed the opportunity that closure would be afforded the family and ... betrayed those who sacrificially donated to the undertaking.

Lou ... the family deserves to know that Kyle believes that Natalee's remains may have been in that trap/cage ... remains that were retrieved by the enemy without so much as a challenge from John S.

Lou ... I am so saddened that you do not comprehend.  For the most part ... for the past 3 1/2 years you and I have connected on the issues but ... always the heart.

Janet

+++++

KYLE KINGMAN - PRIVATE FORUM

Kyle: John is not a believer in the trap. He took ALE's word as gospel that it wasn't case related, yet never studied the videos or bothered to inquire further. He had plans on doing business with Aruba and in S. America and he didn't want to hurt any feelings by talks hinting at lack of complete trust and friendship.

Kyle: I took the proportions of the body form from the head, to shoulder, to a 90 degree angle which I believed to be the hem line of Natalee's skirt. I then took those proportions and matched them to the photo of Natalee with what she was last seen wearing. The proportions matched within an inch from head, to shoulder, to skirt line. Based on this comparison and with what we believed we saw in the Dec 29th video, Tim Miller contacted the family and told them the 99.9% comment. I told Tim not to do anything until we have forensic results back after the site is processed. Jan 7th we sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured. If it isn't her, it will forever haunt me as a major cosmic WTF.

[Keepthefaith]

How does one get onto that Freebird site?  I sure would like to discuss this case without having to worry about saying anything that will have people fill up two pages of the same quotes over and over and over again.

I'm sure you will be getting an email soon.  If not I guess you are stuck here with us people who have no principals and are nuts.

I stand with the nuts.

Well, that just proved my point.  Either you agree with the Kyle-bashing...or you might as well not post here anymore.  Sad,  Really sad.

EXCUSE ME?  Nobody is bashing Kyle we are only seeking an explanation of what appears to be some pretty damning words out of HIS mouth. 

Nobody is saying you have to agree with ANYONE.  OTHERS are trying to tell us what we can discuss and research here and they have no right to.  Nothing is beyond discussion.  NOTHING.

Right.  So...will I be banned next?

I come here every single day...and yes, people are bashing Kyle.  You can call it what you want, but if you were the target of some of the posts that have been put out here you would not come back here either.  And you are losing posters over this.  If that's okay with you, then I guess it's okay with you.

LOL.  This is the most response I have ever had to a post on this forum.  I have opinions too, ya know.  And no....they have not been appreciated or respected on this forum.  So, I read.  And what has been going on here for the last few months has been very sad.

I, too, have been at this from the very beginning.  I am not a newcomer. 

There is a level of hostility that has creeped into this discussion that has not been helpful in any way.  Very sad.

I tend to disagree.Kyle had his concern's with things that took place on the Persistence.I find it Futile to argue for Kyle until he explain's his own concern's of the happening's aboard the Persistence.If he chooses not to.Oh well.That's his choice!

[ldstlou]

What is wrong with you people? I am so sorry, I had to jump in.
How self righteous can you get? That is ridiculous. How dare you slander someone you don't even know.
OMG! Kyle walked away from his trip to Aruba with a funny feeling and expressed his feelings to people who love Natalee just the same as you all do...in the Freebirds Forum where it could be openly discussed amongst others with the same principals...those dedicated to justice for Natalee...how dare you question his integrity or the integrity of his daughter's name. What happened to you all? I just can't believe it.
Like it or not, I am friends with Jug Twitty. Like it or not, he CAN speak for Beth. Like it or not, I have copied and pasted every slanderous post you have made against Kyle and the crew of the Persistence. Believe it or not, Jug has made contact with Kyle and Kyle with Jug over this BS and I can assure you, Jug thinks this is all BS!!!! Make fun of the exclamation points if you must, I am just so disappointed in what is happening here. So is Jug, so is Kyle who busted his butt to bring Natalee home.
This is wrong what you are doing, so wrong!!! Trust me when I tell you Natalee's family members are aware of what you all have accused Kyle and the crew of the Persistence of, they have Kyle's email address and telephone number, and they have nothing but RESPECT for what that man did in Aruba. This nonsense has got to stop. How can you all be so mean and spitefull to people who put their everything into bringing Natalee home to her family?

How does one get onto that Freebird site?  I sure would like to discuss this case without having to worry about saying anything that will have people fill up two pages of the same quotes over and over and over again.

I have no idea, I was never asked...nor  am I offended by that. I don't know what everyone is talking about either when they speak of the "private forums" that have been created lately. Nor have I talked to Kyle in weeks. I was satisfied with what he told me after I spoke with him. He is what you all once thought he was...a very intelligent young man who threw his heart into Natalee's case just the same as all of us did.
I have real problem with Kermit. I know it will tick you off...but I have to speak my piece. If she had been honest and said..look...I am a member of Freebirds and Kyle was alarmed by some things that went down in Aruba and I want to share them with you because no one can dissect the truth like the Monkeys can...so I want to share his concerns with you. He can't due to confidentiality agreements but I feel the info is worth breaking my confidentiality agreement so here it is...then she would have my utmost respect. But that is not the way she chose to do it. Instread she took Kyle's concerns and turned them into some "conspiracy" that she "alone uncovered" and in the process...bastardized everything the members of the Persistence did.  I scream out and use my explanation points not out of some love for Kyle, but out of my own sense of right and wrong. I am sorry if you don't understand that.
Kyle owes you all nothing, he owes me nothing!! I didn't know the man when this all started but I have his email just the same as you all do and I respected him enough to send him a note and he respected me enough to answer. That is all!! Jeeze...can you all imagine what would have happened if you had given him the same consideration?

Confidentialty agreement?With whom?

Two...Kyle had a confidentiality agreement with the ship he was on...the Persitence...which is standard, and one with the Freebirds which Kermit agreed to when she joined. Is his career affected by what Kermit did? Absolutely!!! Did he try and cover up the finding of Natalee? No!! And just like Beth and Dave and Jug walked away from Aruba feeling as though "something went wrong" so did Kyle. And it was because of that feeling he joined the Freebirds and openly discussed with other members his concerns.

Confidentiality agreement on the internet? Internet confidentiality agreement is by its definition and oxymoron. The mere presence and existence of the internet and world wide web. Seriously. Does anyone think, really think, believe that there is remotely the idea of confidentiality on the internet? I hope not.

Every news outlet has their stories linked to and referenced on the internet. This very site is a corporation and yet has its data taken and disseminated. As for slander, lol, he better get in line as I think he is way at the end of that line when it comes to covering Natalee. When he gets his own hate site, maybe he can discuss slander.

The point being ... if anyone thinks a private site is private ... I have a bridge to sell ya. There is not a private site that has ever existed that we did not know what was being said.

Sorry Red...I did. And I did because that is what Klaas taught me...you don't post private e-mails or IM's...that is what she taught me when I first joined.
And call me stupid, but I still have nothing but the utmost respect and admiration for the Freebirds...and always respected that what they produced required confidentiality. I still respect that.

[Tamikosmom]

San ... please edit my above post.

retrieved by the enemy without so much as a challenge from John S.

Thank you.

Janet

[Keepthefaith]

What is wrong with you people? I am so sorry, I had to jump in.
How self righteous can you get? That is ridiculous. How dare you slander someone you don't even know.
OMG! Kyle walked away from his trip to Aruba with a funny feeling and expressed his feelings to people who love Natalee just the same as you all do...in the Freebirds Forum where it could be openly discussed amongst others with the same principals...those dedicated to justice for Natalee...how dare you question his integrity or the integrity of his daughter's name. What happened to you all? I just can't believe it.
Like it or not, I am friends with Jug Twitty. Like it or not, he CAN speak for Beth. Like it or not, I have copied and pasted every slanderous post you have made against Kyle and the crew of the Persistence. Believe it or not, Jug has made contact with Kyle and Kyle with Jug over this BS and I can assure you, Jug thinks this is all BS!!!! Make fun of the exclamation points if you must, I am just so disappointed in what is happening here. So is Jug, so is Kyle who busted his butt to bring Natalee home.
This is wrong what you are doing, so wrong!!! Trust me when I tell you Natalee's family members are aware of what you all have accused Kyle and the crew of the Persistence of, they have Kyle's email address and telephone number, and they have nothing but RESPECT for what that man did in Aruba. This nonsense has got to stop. How can you all be so mean and spitefull to people who put their everything into bringing Natalee home to her family?

How does one get onto that Freebird site?  I sure would like to discuss this case without having to worry about saying anything that will have people fill up two pages of the same quotes over and over and over again.

I have no idea, I was never asked...nor  am I offended by that. I don't know what everyone is talking about either when they speak of the "private forums" that have been created lately. Nor have I talked to Kyle in weeks. I was satisfied with what he told me after I spoke with him. He is what you all once thought he was...a very intelligent young man who threw his heart into Natalee's case just the same as all of us did.
I have real problem with Kermit. I know it will tick you off...but I have to speak my piece. If she had been honest and said..look...I am a member of Freebirds and Kyle was alarmed by some things that went down in Aruba and I want to share them with you because no one can dissect the truth like the Monkeys can...so I want to share his concerns with you. He can't due to confidentiality agreements but I feel the info is worth breaking my confidentiality agreement so here it is...then she would have my utmost respect. But that is not the way she chose to do it. Instread she took Kyle's concerns and turned them into some "conspiracy" that she "alone uncovered" and in the process...bastardized everything the members of the Persistence did.  I scream out and use my explanation points not out of some love for Kyle, but out of my own sense of right and wrong. I am sorry if you don't understand that.
Kyle owes you all nothing, he owes me nothing!! I didn't know the man when this all started but I have his email just the same as you all do and I respected him enough to send him a note and he respected me enough to answer. That is all!! Jeeze...can you all imagine what would have happened if you had given him the same consideration?

Confidentiality agreement?With whom?

Two...Kyle had a confidentiality agreement with the ship he was on...the Persistence...which is standard, and one with the Freebirds which Kermit agreed to when she joined. Is his career affected by what Kermit did? Absolutely!!! Did he try and cover up the finding of Natalee? No!! And just like Beth and Dave and Jug walked away from Aruba feeling as though "something went wrong" so did Kyle. And it was because of that feeling he joined the Freebirds and openly discussed with other members his concerns.

So you are a Freebird?I was asking what confidentiality agreement you were breaking?Are we not talking about Kyle's own concern's regarding the Persistence from his own mouth??

I knew better than to have even tried. I don't know why I did. I am just walking away. I stated from the get go...I am not a member of any forum other than SM and Blogs for Natalee. I am what I am...nothing more...and no great insider info as Kermit claims. I was just a Monkey who was taken aback at the disrespect shown the members of the Persistence...who despite the criticism...just wanted to find Natalee..IMHO.

You said it Ldstlou.You don't have to answer.I was just asking what CONFIDENTIALITY AGREEMENT WILL YOU BREAK???

[truthseeker2]

How does one get onto that Freebird site?  I sure would like to discuss this case without having to worry about saying anything that will have people fill up two pages of the same quotes over and over and over again.

I'm sure you will be getting an email soon.  If not I guess you are stuck here with us people who have no principals and are nuts.

I stand with the nuts.

Well, that just proved my point.  Either you agree with the Kyle-bashing...or you might as well not post here anymore.  Sad,  Really sad.

I didn't prove any point.  Your post was unwarranted.  I have not bashed Kyle.  The only two people who I see bashing is Hotshot and ldstlou.

You're kidding, right?   People have trashed someone who posted here for weeks now, and MY post is unwarranted?  Please.

No I'm not kidding.  You made the post that was unwarranted.  Your words were uncalled for.  How many times has there been stuff posted over and over.  How many times have we said if you disagree then just skip the posts.  But no you made the smartass comment not me.

Like I said.............

[Red]

Folks I think some are missing an important point here.

I can respect those that are willing to help search for Natalee. I can respect those that help search for any missing person. However, there is a purpose and a stated goal when going into such a mission.

It is ok to question, in fact, that is what SM is all about. If one never questions, one is only propaganda. I questioned many things about this search from the outset and received some pretty hostile and petty emails back in return questioning my loyalties. If you want to see bashing ... I'll show ya bashing and making ill comments when some have less than a clue.

Some people who got involved in this case and were late to the show really should have listened, read and became more learned before they acted as if they knew everything. Do not ever forget that long before there was an ocean search ... there was one on land.

Do I applaud the Persistence and their efforts, of course I do. Do I also scratch my head and ask why with a known budget and time did they not search more targets than map a larger area and leave things unsearched ... of course I do. When one builds a home, one usually does so in an effort to complete the structure with a roof and 4 walls, not just making a larger home unfinished. That kind of makes no sense.

Do I question the fact that there was an exclusive media deal when promises were made to provide SM with pics and info long before the Persistence ever left port, yup. Do I question why there was a beg for money all the while they knew they were pulling out ... yes I do.

Folks, questioning provides accountability. That is a real important thing in life. Do not ever accept anything hook, line and sinker. Many of you have questioned me in the past or you have questioned Tim. There is nothing wrong with that. If I point forth a premise or something that was done, I would expect people to question and want more than just accept what's stated. That's what makes the internet the internet. It is not for the faint of heart.

Are people perfect ... nope, not by a long shot. However, acting rude to those that have been a apart of this story and searched long before it was ever the en vogue thing to do and without a "Date Line" exclusive is hardly a way to gain favor. If you want attacked, maybe I should share some emails.

Questioning is not attacking. I would say as always be civil ... however, making people accountable to questioning is an important part of life. One better be able to hold up to questions and defend their point of view. Especially if one wants to be on the net.

Great points Red. And I am not calling anyone a hero here...we have all done what we thought was right...for our love of Natalee. But I remember the pics of you and Dave digging through the landfill and getting so sick in the process. I also remember people criticising what you did and the Monkeys going to bat for you. You, as well as Beth and Dave and Jug know what it is like trying to operate in that godforsaken island. Why so hard on the Persistence who busted their azzes to do the same thing we have been trying to do since Natalee went missing? That is all I ask.

And I appreciate that y'all had my back. However, I will say this. Never, never did I ever send emails like the one's I received nor have my motives questioned by someone who searched for NH in the capacity like the Persistance did. Like I said, do I respect what they did, yes. But, what goes around comes around.

Here is a semi cryptic message ... "not all people's motives who search are created equal."

[ldstlou]

How does one get onto that Freebird site?  I sure would like to discuss this case without having to worry about saying anything that will have people fill up two pages of the same quotes over and over and over again.

I'm sure you will be getting an email soon.  If not I guess you are stuck here with us people who have no principals and are nuts.

I stand with the nuts.

Well, that just proved my point.  Either you agree with the Kyle-bashing...or you might as well not post here anymore.  Sad,  Really sad.

EXCUSE ME?  Nobody is bashing Kyle we are only seeking an explanation of what appears to be some pretty damning words out of HIS mouth. 

Nobody is saying you have to agree with ANYONE.  OTHERS are trying to tell us what we can discuss and research here and they have no right to.  Nothing is beyond discussion.  NOTHING.

Right.  So...will I be banned next?

I come here every single day...and yes, people are bashing Kyle.  You can call it what you want, but if you were the target of some of the posts that have been put out here you would not come back here either.  And you are losing posters over this.  If that's okay with you, then I guess it's okay with you.

LOL.  This is the most response I have ever had to a post on this forum.  I have opinions too, ya know.  And no....they have not been appreciated or respected on this forum.  So, I read.  And what has been going on here for the last few months has been very sad.

I, too, have been at this from the very beginning.  I am not a newcomer. 

There is a level of hostility that has creeped into this discussion that has not been helpful in any way.  Very sad.

I tend to disagree.Kyle had his concern's with things that took place on the Persistence.I find it Futile to argue for Kyle until he explain's his own concern's of the happening's aboard the Persistence.If he chooses not to.Oh well.That's his choice!

He did voice his concerns with the Freebirds...and Kermit brought those concerns here to discuss. Discuss them...nothing wrong with that...what is wrong in my mind...is acting like his concerns were some conspiracy as Kermit made them out to be. They were concerns and questions Kyle walked away with...and you can see those concerns and questions in the posts Kermit has copied and pasted here. He discussed them with people who were committed to justice for Natalee. He did so at a great expense to his career. What more do you want from him? As I said...I didn't know him anymore than you all did...just sent him a simple e-mail asking what happened...and he answered...imagine that??

[wreck]

The Freebirds have done great research, I'm sure their hearts are all in the right place. But, that doesn't make them infallible.

[Red]

Confidentiality agreement on the internet? Internet confidentiality agreement is by its definition and oxymoron. The mere presence and existence of the internet and world wide web. Seriously. Does anyone think, really think, believe that there is remotely the idea of confidentiality on the internet? I hope not.

Every news outlet has their stories linked to and referenced on the internet. This very site is a corporation and yet has its data taken and disseminated. As for slander, lol, he better get in line as I think he is way at the end of that line when it comes to covering Natalee. When he gets his own hate site, maybe he can discuss slander.

The point being ... if anyone thinks a private site is private ... I have a bridge to sell ya. There is not a private site that has ever existed that we did not know what was being said.

Sorry Red...I did. And I did because that is what Klaas taught me...you don't post private e-mails or IM's...that is what she taught me when I first joined.
And call me stupid, but I still have nothing but the utmost respect and admiration for the Freebirds...and always respected that what they produced required confidentiality. I still respect that.
[/quote]

I am actually more so referring to a private internet web site, not emails or IM's. You are correct that people should respect those of confidential. Then again ... there is no law that says that, its one character that makes it possible.

[Keepthefaith]

How does one get onto that Freebird site?  I sure would like to discuss this case without having to worry about saying anything that will have people fill up two pages of the same quotes over and over and over again.

I'm sure you will be getting an email soon.  If not I guess you are stuck here with us people who have no principals and are nuts.

I stand with the nuts.

Well, that just proved my point.  Either you agree with the Kyle-bashing...or you might as well not post here anymore.  Sad,  Really sad.

EXCUSE ME?  Nobody is bashing Kyle we are only seeking an explanation of what appears to be some pretty damning words out of HIS mouth. 

Nobody is saying you have to agree with ANYONE.  OTHERS are trying to tell us what we can discuss and research here and they have no right to.  Nothing is beyond discussion.  NOTHING.

Right.  So...will I be banned next?

I come here every single day...and yes, people are bashing Kyle.  You can call it what you want, but if you were the target of some of the posts that have been put out here you would not come back here either.  And you are losing posters over this.  If that's okay with you, then I guess it's okay with you.

LOL.  This is the most response I have ever had to a post on this forum.  I have opinions too, ya know.  And no....they have not been appreciated or respected on this forum.  So, I read.  And what has been going on here for the last few months has been very sad.

I, too, have been at this from the very beginning.  I am not a newcomer. 

There is a level of hostility that has creeped into this discussion that has not been helpful in any way.  Very sad.

I tend to disagree.Kyle had his concern's with things that took place on the Persistence.I find it Futile to argue for Kyle until he explain's his own concern's of the happening's aboard the Persistence.If he chooses not to.Oh well.That's his choice!

He did voice his concerns with the Freebirds...and Kermit brought those concerns here to discuss. Discuss them...nothing wrong with that...what is wrong in my mind...is acting like his concerns were some conspiracy as Kermit made them out to be. They were concerns and questions Kyle walked away with...and you can see those concerns and questions in the posts Kermit has copied and pasted here. He discussed them with people who were committed to justice for Natalee. He did so at a great expense to his career. What more do you want from him? As I said...I didn't know him anymore than you all did...just sent him a simple e-mail asking what happened...and he answered...imagine that??

I speak only for me.TRUTH AND JUSTICE don't require confidentiality agreements!From what Kyle has said i see that there were some very comprimising things that occured on the Persistence.If your OK with that.That's fine.I'm not!

[klaasend]

How does one get onto that Freebird site?  I sure would like to discuss this case without having to worry about saying anything that will have people fill up two pages of the same quotes over and over and over again.

I'm sure you will be getting an email soon.  If not I guess you are stuck here with us people who have no principals and are nuts.

I stand with the nuts.

Well, that just proved my point.  Either you agree with the Kyle-bashing...or you might as well not post here anymore.  Sad,  Really sad.

EXCUSE ME?  Nobody is bashing Kyle we are only seeking an explanation of what appears to be some pretty damning words out of HIS mouth. 

Nobody is saying you have to agree with ANYONE.  OTHERS are trying to tell us what we can discuss and research here and they have no right to.  Nothing is beyond discussion.  NOTHING.

Right.  So...will I be banned next?

I come here every single day...and yes, people are bashing Kyle.  You can call it what you want, but if you were the target of some of the posts that have been put out here you would not come back here either.  And you are losing posters over this.  If that's okay with you, then I guess it's okay with you.

LOL.  This is the most response I have ever had to a post on this forum.  I have opinions too, ya know.  And no....they have not been appreciated or respected on this forum.  So, I read.  And what has been going on here for the last few months has been very sad.

I, too, have been at this from the very beginning.  I am not a newcomer. 

There is a level of hostility that has creeped into this discussion that has not been helpful in any way.  Very sad.

I agree there is a level of hostility over the subject and it's sad that people can't agree to disagree.  If some have chosen to leave and post in other forums because of it so be it.  This case has gone on for so long now most established forums have closed their dedicated NH forums and only open when there's something in the news.  Sure, people get mad and open up little private invite only forums all the time.  Members come and go, nothing can be done about that and there is no way we are going to please everyone all the time. 

In case you hadn't noticed, this is not BFN or BNH or Natalee's Freebirds, this is Scared Monkeys.  This site is not about just the Natalee Holloway case.  We want justice for Natalee just like we want justice for Caylee, Stacy, Donna Jou, Jaliek, etc and all the other missing persons.

[ldstlou]

Folks I think some are missing an important point here.

I can respect those that are willing to help search for Natalee. I can respect those that help search for any missing person. However, there is a purpose and a stated goal when going into such a mission.

It is ok to question, in fact, that is what SM is all about. If one never questions, one is only propaganda. I questioned many things about this search from the outset and received some pretty hostile and petty emails back in return questioning my loyalties. If you want to see bashing ... I'll show ya bashing and making ill comments when some have less than a clue.

Some people who got involved in this case and were late to the show really should have listened, read and became more learned before they acted as if they knew everything. Do not ever forget that long before there was an ocean search ... there was one on land.

Do I applaud the Persistence and their efforts, of course I do. Do I also scratch my head and ask why with a known budget and time did they not search more targets than map a larger area and leave things unsearched ... of course I do. When one builds a home, one usually does so in an effort to complete the structure with a roof and 4 walls, not just making a larger home unfinished. That kind of makes no sense.

Do I question the fact that there was an exclusive media deal when promises were made to provide SM with pics and info long before the Persistence ever left port, yup. Do I question why there was a beg for money all the while they knew they were pulling out ... yes I do.

Folks, questioning provides accountability. That is a real important thing in life. Do not ever accept anything hook, line and sinker. Many of you have questioned me in the past or you have questioned Tim. There is nothing wrong with that. If I point forth a premise or something that was done, I would expect people to question and want more than just accept what's stated. That's what makes the internet the internet. It is not for the faint of heart.

Are people perfect ... nope, not by a long shot. However, acting rude to those that have been a apart of this story and searched long before it was ever the en vogue thing to do and without a "Date Line" exclusive is hardly a way to gain favor. If you want attacked, maybe I should share some emails.

Questioning is not attacking. I would say as always be civil ... however, making people accountable to questioning is an important part of life. One better be able to hold up to questions and defend their point of view. Especially if one wants to be on the net.

Great points Red. And I am not calling anyone a hero here...we have all done what we thought was right...for our love of Natalee. But I remember the pics of you and Dave digging through the landfill and getting so sick in the process. I also remember people criticising what you did and the Monkeys going to bat for you. You, as well as Beth and Dave and Jug know what it is like trying to operate in that godforsaken island. Why so hard on the Persistence who busted their azzes to do the same thing we have been trying to do since Natalee went missing? That is all I ask.

And I appreciate that y'all had my back. However, I will say this. Never, never did I ever send emails like the one's I received nor have my motives questioned by someone who searched for NH in the capacity like the Persistance did. Like I said, do I respect what they did, yes. But, what goes around comes around.

Here is a semi cryptic message ... "not all people's motives who search are created equal."

Red,
I think if you called Kyle, he would be the first to tell you he made mistakes. he did when I called him. But he is young and his heart was in the right place and he learned a lot of lessons the hard way and yet is still willing to face Natalee's family with his failures. His failures were not a conspiracy with John Silvetti to hide Natalee's body for rights for oil...they were they same failures that Greta had when she was "inclined to believe joran". Do you know what I am saying? The insanity of what goes on in Aruba is so crazy...that they walked away like everyone there saying...WTF? But I do in my heart believe their intentions and actions were pure.

[klaasend]

The Freebirds have done great research, I'm sure their hearts are all in the right place. But, that doesn't make them infallible.

Wreck - I agree, I have alot of respect for the Freebird's

[San]

The Freebirds have done great research, I'm sure their hearts are all in the right place. But, that doesn't make them infallible.

I agree they did great work.  Where did Freebirds get all their information.  They got it from people asking questions and finding out information on message boards that shared the information with everyone.

[Red]

My main point is respectful disagreement or debate. I agree with Wreck, the Freebirds have done some nice work. We have posted some of their material here and on FP of SM.

Looking at an issue from different perspectives. OK, even bigger point and this is what Scared Monkeys blog was founded on. Write and discuss what one is passionate about and if you cannot defend your point of view without cursing or calling calling some one a name ... don't write it.

One must always know that when they put themselves out there they open themselves up to public ridicule and scorn. It comes with the territory. Always be able to defend what you believe and do so with a smile.