Lively Case Discussion #490 7/9 - 7/10/2006

[klaasend]

One thing though that has always troubled me about the cell phone calls...

Virtually any scenario we can think of has Natalee incapacitated and in exigent circumstances IN SOME WAY by the 3 AM point on the timeline. It is hard for me to imagine her, especially if she was drugged, being able to handle (both mentally AND emotionally) the challenge of dialing Beth's US number on an unfamiliar cellphone, especially if a country code, etc. was needed to place the call. I have had family members call from overseas to my land line before, and the call process, for them to my US number, was no easy matter. And they were sober and lucid. Granted, that was 8 or 9 years ago and the mechanism for such calls may be more refined now... but I still think it would have been a real leap in the dark for her to have successfully gotten through, especially doing it "under wraps" with the fear of being discovered in the act.

That's why AL Gunslinger's comments about the call stand out so much. He asserts that the call DID happen and I believe it. Therefore, I'm trying to figure out HOW Natalee could have done it.

It implies that they didn't get Natalee as "out of it" as we wish... if (when) they abused her, she probably had an idea what was happening and her last moments would have been absolutely terrifying.

Plus, if she could make a cell call, she probably could have kept from "falling" and "hitting her head". Hint, hint. No accident.

I agree SB, if she was able to get off a call I doubt at THAT point she was drifting in and out of conciousness.  I also believe that the reason something bad happened this time and not 20 times before is that Natalee wasn't willing, not even in a drunk or drugged out state.

[Atlmetroguy]

SB - just a quick comment from me...international dialing on GSM cell phones is very simple and has been for about 5+ years. Basically if you are calling a number in the states on any GSM cell phone anywhere in the world you just dial the following string "+" "1" then AC, NPA, NXX or simply +1 205 555 1212 as an example. So, what I am saying is if NH was taught how to dial the "+" symbol she would already know the rest of the dial string to get a call out.

[klaasend]

SB - just a quick comment from me...international dialing on GSM cell phones is very simple and has been for about 5+ years. Basically if you are calling a number in the states on any GSM cell phone anywhere in the world you just dial the following string "+" "1" then AC, NPA, NXX or simply +1 205 555 1212 as an example. So, what I am saying is if NH was taught how to dial the "+" symbol she would already know the rest of the dial string to get a call out.

Metro - what are the chances of the 8 1/2 minute cell call being a video transmission??  Cell to cell or cell to PC?

[Anna]

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Metro,
What are the chances the records are still there fourteen months later?  How long will they be archived before they are deleted?

.

[Atlmetroguy]

SB - just a quick comment from me...international dialing on GSM cell phones is very simple and has been for about 5+ years. Basically if you are calling a number in the states on any GSM cell phone anywhere in the world you just dial the following string "+" "1" then AC, NPA, NXX or simply +1 205 555 1212 as an example. So, what I am saying is if NH was taught how to dial the "+" symbol she would already know the rest of the dial string to get a call out.

Metro - what are the chances of the 8 1/2 minute cell call being a video transmission??  Cell to cell or cell to PC?

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I would say totally do-able as long as Digicel Aruba or the other carrier has a GSM/GPRS or a GSM/EDGE network. The GPRS will have slower data rates and the EDGE will be faster but what I am thinking is that based on available cell phones that would shoot video clips in May/June 2005 (would mean the phones were purchased a few to 6 months earlier) time frame those clips would be very short. Now having said that if the clip was shot by a video camera, especially digital then the data could be compressed and sent via laptop connected to a phone. Case in point I was no where near broadband last week and had my GSM phone connected to my laptop and was surfing at 230KBS and was downloading files..big ones that were taking 10+ minutes.

[Atlmetroguy]

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Metro,
What are the chances the records are still there fourteen months later?  How long will they be archived before they are deleted?

.

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Anna...thats a tough one!! It all depends on how long the carrier keeps the records. Typically in the states those records are only held for 6 months or so. Reason being the amount of users on the network, think Cingular has 45 million customers...that would require terrabytes of storage, then Aruba with maybe 40K-60K subscribers..less users so less data less storage needs so it could be smewhat possible those records still exist on a backup server somewhere.

[Sleuth]

SB - just a quick comment from me...international dialing on GSM cell phones is very simple and has been for about 5+ years. Basically if you are calling a number in the states on any GSM cell phone anywhere in the world you just dial the following string "+" "1" then AC, NPA, NXX or simply +1 205 555 1212 as an example. So, what I am saying is if NH was taught how to dial the "+" symbol she would already know the rest of the dial string to get a call out.

What he said....

I just dialed + and then my regular numbers (beginning with 1).

People called me not realizing at all where I was - with crystal clear connections.  Full bars.

[Atlmetroguy]

SB - just a quick comment from me...international dialing on GSM cell phones is very simple and has been for about 5+ years. Basically if you are calling a number in the states on any GSM cell phone anywhere in the world you just dial the following string "+" "1" then AC, NPA, NXX or simply +1 205 555 1212 as an example. So, what I am saying is if NH was taught how to dial the "+" symbol she would already know the rest of the dial string to get a call out.

What he said....

I just dialed + and then my regular numbers (beginning with 1).

People called me not realizing at all where I was - with crystal clear connections.  Full bars.

******************************
Yep...GSM international roaming is a beautiful thing!!

[Anna]

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Some Play Stations will even receive short video clips.  See Joran on airplane going to Netherlands with the ever present ear phones and his Play Station.  Guess it has to have a Wi Fi card or something but they can be adapted to do it.

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[klaasend]

SB - just a quick comment from me...international dialing on GSM cell phones is very simple and has been for about 5+ years. Basically if you are calling a number in the states on any GSM cell phone anywhere in the world you just dial the following string "+" "1" then AC, NPA, NXX or simply +1 205 555 1212 as an example. So, what I am saying is if NH was taught how to dial the "+" symbol she would already know the rest of the dial string to get a call out.

Metro - what are the chances of the 8 1/2 minute cell call being a video transmission??  Cell to cell or cell to PC?

************************************
I would say totally do-able as long as Digicel Aruba or the other carrier has a GSM/GPRS or a GSM/EDGE network. The GPRS will have slower data rates and the EDGE will be faster but what I am thinking is that based on available cell phones that would shoot video clips in May/June 2005 (would mean the phones were purchased a few to 6 months earlier) time frame those clips would be very short. Now having said that if the clip was shot by a video camera, especially digital then the data could be compressed and sent via laptop connected to a phone. Case in point I was no where near broadband last week and had my GSM phone connected to my laptop and was surfing at 230KBS and was downloading files..big ones that were taking 10+ minutes.

Thanks Metro - how about a short 30-60 second one?

[SunFreak2]

Klaas, I have a project for you.  As if you don't have enough already going on. Check your email.  

[klaasend]

Klaas, I have a project for you.  As if you don't have enough already going on. Check your email.  

    Got it and responded

[Anna]

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If the suspects' statements can be made to disappear, I just worry
that the phone records could as well and that it might well be after
the time limit for getting back up copies.  Sure hope the FBI or HT's have hard copies in hand already.

There are reasons they keep stalling and stalling as they do.

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[klaasend]

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If the suspects' statements can be made to disappear, I just worry
that the phone records could as well and that it might well be after
the time limit for getting back up copies.  Sure hope the FBI or HT's have hard copies in hand already.

There are reasons they keep stalling and stalling as they do.

.

I'm hoping the Digicel records aren't controlled by Aruba.  Maybe the FBI was able to obtain the Digicel records within the 6 month time span.

[klaasend]

I think I'm going to call it a night.  Will see you all tomorrow although I do have work to do tomorrow that should have been done today  

[Anna]

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Me, too, Goodnight all.

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[spooky112483]

well I am all caught up now.
Hope everyone had a great day.
Metro, thanks for the cell info. That answered some of my questions.

[casa]

I just thought I'd do a search for Natalee Holloway just to see what would come up as I have not checked in a while.  I found this website/article that addressed the fact that the people of Aruba were not as helpful as some folks would have us think.  This was posted on August 12, 2005.  I am posting the link for anyone who wants to look at it.  http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1462134/posts

[sb]

It might be a question for Beth or someone close to Natalee, then: did she know how to dial from a GSM phone that way?

This also implies that the phone she had ahold of was pretty state-of-the-art. GSM service has really only been phasing in here in the US for the last 2 years or so... I remember how we had large gaps in GSM coverage on the provider I had up until recently. I know too that overseas they STARTED with better technology from scratch, so they are considered "ahead" of the US in cellphone technology as far as getting GSM coverage.

My info is somewhat dated, I know. Atlmetroguy has forgotten more about this subject than I have ever learned.

I just still can't quite bring myself to think Natalee could fire off a cell call THAT easily to the US under the circumstances she was in.

[Atlmetroguy]

.
If the suspects' statements can be made to disappear, I just worry
that the phone records could as well and that it might well be after
the time limit for getting back up copies.  Sure hope the FBI or HT's have hard copies in hand already.

There are reasons they keep stalling and stalling as they do.

.

I'm hoping the Digicel records aren't controlled by Aruba.  Maybe the FBI was able to obtain the Digicel records within the 6 month time span.

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I'm not sure about criminal jurisdictation of the records but ultimately those records belong to both Digicel and the consumer and not the government.