Monkey Musings Daily Open Discussion #7 9/30 - 10/24/2007

[A's Fever]

I have been following the news and reading here about the fires.  I, too, hope Shell's okay and that their home is untouched.  My adult sons still can't comprehend how all this can happen...thanks to you, A's Fever & others, I have been able to explain the winds, temp & dry conditions.....(my kids were boy scouts, but are a bit removed from that now  )
[/quote]

Glad to help, 2NJ, but even with explanations the magnitude of these fires is truly incomprehensible.

San Diego son has not said anything about any soot -- perhaps it is not something a 20 year old manboy would notice?! 

[klaasend]

A's Fever - LOL  most likely not.  Unless he's upwind from the fires I don't see how his place couldn't be covered in soot. 

[oldfart]

OldFart, what's the movie where the girl sits on an out of balance washer, and um, "enjoys" it?   

I too, am so anxious to hear from Shell!

CBB
I have NO IDEA what YOU are taking about...
I saw the article on vibrartions  building ABS and you wanting a vibrating platform
My washer vibrates  (rocks & rolls) at times   and the weed-eater

Can't picture you standing on a weed-eater ....Washer maybe not the weed-eater

And it just goes to Show What a small world we do live in " Leave Britney Spears Alone video? He lives near me!"  You may have been at the same place & time and just never knew it..   Happy Halloween 

If You happen on him... please do NOT..    Oh... never mind...

[crazybabyborg]

OldFart, what's the movie where the girl sits on an out of balance washer, and um, "enjoys" it?   

I too, am so anxious to hear from Shell!

CBB
I have NO IDEA what YOU are taking about...
I saw the article on vibrartions  building ABS and you wanting a vibrating platform
My washer vibrates  (rocks & rolls) at times   and the weed-eater

Can't picture you standing on a weed-eater ....Washer maybe not the weed-eater

And it just goes to Show What a small world we do live in " Leave Britney Spears Alone video? He lives near me!"  You may have been at the same place & time and just never knew it..   Happy Halloween 

If You happen on him... please do NOT..    Oh... never mind...

Whatever you were about to say, OldFart....................I WON'T! 

[oldfart]

I have been following the news and reading here about the fires.  I, too, hope Shell's okay and that their home is untouched.  My adult sons still can't comprehend how all this can happen...thanks to you, A's Fever & others, I have been able to explain the winds, temp & dry conditions.....(my kids were boy scouts, but are a bit removed from that now  )

Glad to help, 2NJ, but even with explanations the magnitude of these fires is truly incomprehensible.

San Diego son has not said anything about any soot -- perhaps it is not something a 20 year old manboy would notice?! 
[/quote]
A's
If it is not messing with his car... He may not notice it... (been a long time since I was 20  but..)

[A's Fever]

A's Fever - LOL  most likely not.  Unless he's upwind from the fires I don't see how his place couldn't be covered in soot. 

He's near La Jolla, so as I understand it he has the Witch Creek fire to the north, and the Harris fire to the south.  But the smoke from both blows west over the ocean, so there's no escaping it. 

Seriously, your soot problem sounds horrible.  It sounds like it can't be just dusted up, but must be scrubbed. Ugh.  For once I am actually glad son lives far away!!!  (But not really  )

[oldfart]

I should not.. but what the Heck

CBB  have you ever visited the "Swaying" thread ?

No biggie  Just wondering...

[klaasend]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,304623,00.html



More Than 350,000 Homes Evacuated in as Wildfires Bear Down on California
Tuesday , October 23, 2007

 
SAN DIEGO —

Faced with unrelenting winds whipping wildfires into a frenzy across Southern California, firefighters conceded defeat on many fronts Tuesday to an unstoppable force that has chased more than 500,000 people away.

Unless the shrieking Santa Ana winds subside, and that's not expected for at least another day, fire crews say they can do little more than try to wait it out and react — tamping out spot fires and chasing ribbons of airborne embers to keep new fires from flaring.

"If it's this big and blowing with as much wind as it's got, it'll go all the way to the ocean before it stops," said San Diego Fire Capt. Kirk Humphries. "We can save some stuff but we can't stop it."

Tentacles of unpredictable, shifting flame have burned across nearly 600 square miles, killing one person, destroying more than 1,800 homes and prompting the biggest evacuation in California history, from north of Los Angeles, through San Diego to the Mexican border.

Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger said the flames were threatening 68,000 more homes.

"We have had an unfortunate situation that we've had three things come together: very dry areas, very hot weather and then a lot of wind," Schwarzenegger said. "And so this makes the perfect storm for a fire."

In Rancho Santa Fe, a suburb north of San Diego, houses burned just yards from where fire crews fought to contain flames engulfing other properties. In the mountain community of Lake Arrowhead, cabins and vacation homes went up in flames with no fire crews in sight.

"These winds are so strong, we're not trying to fight this fire," said firefighter Jim Gelrud, an engineer from Vista, Calif. "We're just trying to save the buildings."

More than a dozen wildfires blowing across Southern California since Sunday have also injured more than 45 people, including 21 firefighters. The U.S. Forest Service earlier reported a fire death in Los Angeles County's Santa Clarita area, but officials said Tuesday that information was erroneous.

In San Diego County, authorities placed evacuation calls to 346,000 homes, said Luis Monteagudo, a spokesman for the county's emergency effort. The county estimates, based on census data, that about 513,000 people were ordered to leave.

"It's basically a mass migration here in San Diego County. The numbers we're seeing are staggering," said Luis Monteagudo, a spokesman for the county's emergency effort.

President Bush, who planned to visit the region Thursday, declared a federal emergency for seven counties, a move that will speed disaster-relief efforts.

The sweeping devastation was reminiscent of blazes that tore through Southern California four years ago, killing 22 and destroying 3,640 homes.

The ferocity of the Santa Ana winds in 2003 forced crews to discard their traditional strategy and focus on keeping up with the fire and putting out spot blazes that threatened homes.

Fire crews were especially concerned about dense eucalyptus groves in Del Mar and Rancho Santa Fe, fearing the highly flammable trees could turn neighborhoods prized for their secluded serenity into potential tinderboxes.

The usual tactic is to surround a fire on two sides and try to choke it off. But with fires whipped by gusts that have surpassed 100 mph, that strategy doesn't work because embers can be swept miles ahead of the fire's front line. In those cases, crews must keep 10 to 30 feet back from the flames or risk their own lives, Los Angeles County firefighter Daryl Parish said.

Added Rocklin Fire Department Capt. Martin Holm: "We do what we can. A life's a lot more important than a house."

Any flame longer than 8 feet is considered unstoppable, and even water and fire retardant will evaporate before they reach the ground, said Gordon Schmidt, a retired U.S. Forest Service deputy director of fire management.

"In these situations, the strategy generally is to fall back," he said. "You pick and choose your priorities in terms of what you can protect. Instead of trying to stop the fire, you try to prevent it from burning resources."

In the suburbs north of San Diego, firefighters did just that as fingers of flame pulsed across a 10-lane freeway and raced up a hill on the opposite side in just seconds. The fire engulfed white-washed homes at the top of the ridge.

Groves of eucalyptus trees exploded in the heat in one ritzy cul-de-sac in Rancho Santa Fe, sending off a scattered popping that sounded like machine gun fire.

Firefighters parked their rigs in the driveways of the most threatened homes and hosed down fences and open space around homes as a blood-red sun set over a sky choked with smoke and falling ash.

Firefighters battling two fast-moving blazes in Lake Arrowhead, in the San Bernardino Mountains about 130 miles east of Los Angeles, were also taxed by steep terrain, winding roads and a forest packed with dead or dying trees.

More than 200 homes burned in Lake Arrowhead and Running Springs, fire officials said.

At least three times in the past two days, fire crews have been forced to "pull off, and wait for things to calm down" because of danger, said San Bernardino National Forest Ranger Kurt Winchester.

"In a lot of places, you just have to back off and let the fire go," he said. "There's nothing we can do."

The one person confirmed dead was identified as Thomas Varshock of Tecate, a town on the U.S. side of the border southeast of San Diego. He died over the weekend after he ignored warnings to evacuate and authorities left to take care of other evacuations, the San Diego Conty Medical Examiner's Office said.

The San Diego medical examiner's officer also listed four other deaths as connected to the wildfires because they occurred during or after evacuations. Three people were in their 90s and died from natural causes; the fourth was a woman who died after falling at a restaurant.

In Rancho Santa Fe, neighbors tried to protect a friend's home with a garden hose Monday night as flames raced up a ridge directly behind the house. Yards away, an engine crew kept watch as another home, already fully engulfed, burned to the ground.

"We told the firemen about (this house) and we put out a few hot spots," said friend Gary Rich. "They told us once they put out that house, they'd come over here."

But, Rich said, encroaching flames were making him nervous and he might leave before then.

Fighting a gusty blaze also puts the firefighters in harm's way. At least twice in the last two days, firefighters have had to unfurl their emergency fire shelters — small fire-resistant tents to shield them when they can't escape a fire.

Weather conditions only grew worse, with temperatures across Southern California about 10 degrees above average. Temperatures were in the 90s by mid-afternoon and wind gusts up to 60 mph were expected in mountains and canyons.

In the San Diego suburb of Del Dios, fire completely destroyed one home but seemed to touch other items at random. Two lawn chairs and an umbrella were left in a burnt, melted heap on the patio. But behind the house, near a murky brown swimming pool, two chaise lounges and a four-foot-tall decorative fountain survived unscathed.

J.C. Playford, an evacuee from the nearby community of Ramona, surveyed the damage and wondered whether his own home was still standing.

"I've got two reports, one person told me it's gone, and one person said it's still there," he said, "So I have no idea."

[crazybabyborg]

Klaas, wow! The article does a good job of defining the overwhelming problems fighting the fires. What's the forecast for tonight and tomorrow? Is the situation ANY more hopeful for tomorrow?

[IBE]

Fire heading, according to 11 oclock news, towards San Clemente. Monkeys stay safe!!! Please!

Old Fart, soot eats up the paint on a car faster,  sometimes worse then eggs.

[IBE]

11 oclock news said over 1 million evacuated and 20 + fires still going on. The moon, tonight, is orange. I bet some can't see it for the smoke and soot. Very, very sad... not only homes will go down in this and lives, but survival of families and marriages.

[Observer]

11 oclock news said over 1 million evacuated and 20 + fires still going on. The moon, tonight, is orange. I bet some can't see it for the smoke and soot. Very, very sad... not only homes will go down in this and lives, but survival of families and marriages.

WOW!! Thats horrendous Thanks for the update IBE

[IBE]

Was checking my email... I belong to a group of fossil and rock collectors via one of the Yahoo groups. Here's part of one of the emails... hope I am not in trouble with who wrote it. It is scarey

"Better double check on this trip in light of the fact that multiple out of control
fire storms are lacerating half of San Diego county today and most major freeways are closed.
Mandatory evaucations are in effect in various areas all the way from the border
to Fallbrook and all the fires are racing towards the coast.  In many areas, it's
extremely difficult to breath due to choking smoke.  The power grid is unpredictable due to fire and wind collapsed power lines.  Trees have fallen over roads all over.  I can only hope this ends soon but the extreme Santa Anna winds are predicted for a while yet.   Looks like this batch of fires might turn out even worse than that last time that took out thousands of homes.  The last time only came under control because the winds suddenly stopped,but that might not happen this time. I suspect a deluge of evacuees will be racing towards the coast and then towards orange county right now.  The 5 is already completely jammed because it is the only freeway still open in which you can get out of San Diego.
There is real fear the fires may go all the way to the coast if the wind doesn't slow
down soon. " 

PS from IBE   
The news here said the winds would stop on Thursday.

Oh, don't forget, Donna Jou parent's on Dr. Phil today. along with Ms. Gloria Allred (Wed) according to the info on her thread here on SM. I have been with the parents, personally and the family.

This is so sad. Seems just saddness all over the place.

Anna, what's for breakfast??? Hope some rain too for you. Saw the terrible pictures of the lakes in northern AL and how they (Corp of Engineers) diverted the water the lakes were to get in order to save some sort of endangered something down the water path.

When will we realize we humans are endangered too. (end of rant  )

[IBE]

Was looking for info on slander and one of the sites had this link posted. On the site are the links to the areas I have put in bold print below

http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2007/10/southern-california-fire-maps.html


Southern California fire maps
 10/23/2007 08:01:00 PM
Posted by Jess Lee, Product Manager, Google Maps

The devastating wildfires in Southern California have burned more than 373,000 acres of land; 350,000 homes have been evacuated. Lots of people have pulled together to make maps with information about the fires, including the burn zones, evacuation alerts, evacuation centers, safe areas, and closed roads. Here's a list of some of the most widely-used fire maps that our Google Maps team is aware of. We hope everyone is safe and that relief comes soon.

San Diego County Fires - KPBS is updating this map every 5 to 15 minutes with the latest information on the spread of the fire. It appears to be one of the most up-to-date and includes lots of information about evacuation alerts and evacuation centers. It also shows burn zones drawn on the map.

Los Angeles Times 10-23-07 Fires - Includes status updates on each of the fires, including the number of acres burned, percentage contained, the amount of property damage, injuries and evacuations. The LA Times is updating this quite frequently.

Wildfires in Southern California - Fire status updates, closed roads, evacuation alerts, and photos by the Los Angeles Daily News.

San Diego Under Siege: Witch Creek and Harris Fires info and maps - This map is focused on the Witch Creek and Harris fires. It appears to have been created by someone who lives in the area who is updating the map as more news appears on TV.

Fire Updates and Road Closures - This map is specifically about the fires in Santa Clarita, including road closures, burn zones, property damage, and injures.

Witch Creek Fire - This one is specifically about the Witch Creek fire. It doesn't seem to be getting updated as frequently now; apparently the creator had to leave.

The Orange County Register - Updates from the Register on each of the fires, including evacuated areas, start time, origin, property damage, etc.

Wildfire Photos - Photos from the San Diego Union-Tribune.

Wildfire Videos - Videos from the San Diego Union-Tribune.

2007 Wildfires - Burn zones and evacuation centers from the San Diego Union-Tribune.

Los Angeles Times 10-22-07 Fires - Fire news from yesterday by the Los Angeles Times.

Malibu Wildfire Info From blog.sudosu.net - Specific information about the fires in Malibu. Updates are based on news from the TV and web.

[IBE]

Fires all around Klaas

Prayers for Klaas and her family for safety and keeping of home.

Here's the latest from http://www.kpbs.org at about 3:20 AM. This site gives radio stream and also up to date info on the right side of the page.

# To join the conversation call KPBS at 888 895 5727 7 minutes ago
# Videos of fires can be found at youtube.com/signonsandiego 12 minutes ago
# Sleeping cots, canned food and large animal carriers are needed at horse camp at Cuyamaca Street or Lakeside Rodeo grounds. 21 minutes ago
# 19 military aircraft to join fire fight by Wednesday morning. 25 minutes ago
# I-5 is closed between SR-76 and Christianitos Road. To go North use 78 East to I-15 North. 26 minutes ago
# I-5 is closed between SR-76 and Christianitos Road. To go North use 78 East to I-15 North. 26 minutes ago

Not confirmed as yet... fire approaching San Clemete from the east and fire west of San Clemente on San Clemente Island.

More being evacuated. Already 1 million evacuated so far.

By the updates I 5 is the only N/S interstate open and it is being closed at places. It would be hard to evacuate... not that many N/S highways in San Diego Co. All are closed, I have read, except I-5 at times and Pacific Coast Highway 1.

This seems to becoming a living "hell" of fire.

President arriving either today or tomorrow... think it's today (Wed)

Sorry, I just can't sleep. I am frustrated that I can't find up to date info on the fire just east of San Clemente.

I would think more troops will have to be called in to keep looters out. Not all homes burn right to the ground and many homes, businesses are "vacant" from evacuations.

[IBE]

Will try not to post more, as don't wish to get to page 50 before Klaas is back... sure she has her hands full now!!!!! Prayers for Klaas and all others affected by these fires.

Here's a new twist on "Border Patrol"  I believe I found this at kpbs.org

Migrants Surrender to Border Patrol as Flames Burn Route

Oct 23, 2007
Elliot Spagat

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One of Southern California's largest wildfires has frightened many illegal immigrants from hiking through a popular corridor to cross from Mexico even as the Border Patrol has withdrawn some agents.

Some consider the Border Patrol's pullback an opportunity, but a three-hour drive through ash-covered hills Tuesday suggests that many others are staying put in Mexico.

"They're holding back," Mark Mahler, a Border Patrol agent, said as he kept watch over an evacuated highway checkpoint that was closed Monday on State Route 94. The checkpoint on the two-lane highway, which narrowly escaped damage, is normally a major obstacle for illegal crossers.

The fire left miles of black ash in the canyons around Dulzura, an evacuated hamlet about 25 miles east of San Diego, where dozens of homes were destroyed. Thousands of foot trails once covered by dense shrub were laid bare.

Road closures due to the fire meant migrants could not meet drivers, Mahler said. Typically, migrants pay about $1,500 each to be guided through rugged canyons for hours, even days, and be picked up by someone at a roadside checkpoint for the drive to San Diego.

Many illegal immigrants appeared to heed the advice of the Border Patrol and the Mexican government, aired on television and radio in Tijuana, Mexico, to stay away from the fires. The Border Patrol radio was unusually quiet Tuesday. Its motion sensors laced throughout the canyons, which escaped damaged, did not set alarms.
Some illegal immigrants, however, took the risk.

About 50 migrants have surrendered to the Border Patrol since the fires began Sunday, fearing for their safety. One was seriously burned Monday when he and five others sought help from firefighters and they were all taken to a San Diego hospital, according to the Mexican consulate in San Diego. No deaths have been reported.

Some of the six migrants who were rescued by firefighters Monday told Mexican authorities that smugglers convinced them the Border Patrol would be distracted, said Alberto Lozano, a spokesman for the Mexican consulate in San Diego.

"The smugglers see the opportunity," Joe Mason, a Border Patrol field operations supervisor, said as his truck wound through the bald canyons. "They figure there's a good chance that the Border Patrol's not around."

The federal agency has reassigned about 115 agents on each shift to help with the fires, directing traffic and knocking on doors to evacuate homes in the San Diego area. Agents also rescued 53 horses.

About 200 of the 600 National Guard troops who normally help patrol California's border with Mexico also were reassigned to assist with fires further north.

That left the steep hills on the border relatively unattended, and some illegal immigrants apparently took advantage. There was a trail of fresh footprints through one ash-blanketed canyon Tuesday.

The Harris Fire, which has burned 70,000 acres, will almost certainly cause migrants to rethink whether it makes sense to cross in the area. Mahler said the exposed hillsides mean migrants can no longer hide in the thick brush.

"Sometimes fire makes our job a little easier, I hate to say it," he said.

[crazybabyborg]

Calif. firefighters hope winds slacken By GILLIAN FLACCUS, Associated Press Writer
 5 minutes ago
 


After three days of a vicious firestorm, exhausted firefighters and weary residents looked forward Wednesday to a break — an expected slackening of the gale force winds that have ignited the state's largest complex of wildland blazes.

Forecasters said the Santa Ana breezes that have fanned flames across Southern California will begin to weaken late Wednesday afternoon, followed by cooling sea breezes. The series of 16 wildfires has destroyed nearly 1,300 homes.

"By Thursday, we're expecting it to be pretty much over," said Noel Isla, a meteorologist at the National Weather Service's San Diego office.

The welcome forecast of lower temperatures and lighter winds will be accompanied by an injection of additional firefighters and equipment from other states. Frustration over the firefighting effort erupted Tuesday, when a fire official said not enough had been done to protect homes.

Orange County Fire Chief Chip Prather told reporters that firefighters' lives were threatened because too few crews were on the ground. He said a quick deployment of aircraft could have corralled a massive blaze near Irvine.

"It is an absolute fact: Had we had more air resources, we would have been able to control this fire," he said.

The fires have injured 21 firefighters and at least 24 others. One person was killed by the flames, and the San Diego medical examiner's officer listed four other deaths as connected to the blazes.

The state's top firefighter said Prather misstated the availability of firefighters and equipment. Eight of the state's nine water-dumping helicopters were in Southern California by Sunday, when the first fires began, along with 13 air tankers, said Ruben Grijalva, director of the California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection.

Grijalva said the fires, spread by winds that at times topped 100 mph, would have overwhelmed most efforts to fight them.

Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger dismissed the criticism when questioned by an ABC News reporter.

"Anybody that is complaining about the planes just wants to complain because there's a bunch of nonsense," he said. "The fact is that we could have all the planes in the world here — we have 90 aircraft here and six that we got especially from the federal government — and they can't fly because of the wind situation."

He praised the rapid deployment of fire crews and equipment across a region from north of Los Angeles to the Mexican border. The wind-driven fires had burned 410,000 acres, or about 640 square miles, causing at least $100 million in damage.

The wildfires have led to the largest evacuation in state history, with more than 500,000 people forced to flee their homes. Thousands packed evacuation centers.

San Diego school officials announced on the district's Web site that all classes and programs would be canceled for the rest of the week "due to the continued extreme fire conditions and unhealthy air."

Late Tuesday night, officials issued a new round of mandatory evacuations in the San Diego County communities of Fallbrook and Julian, an area devastated by a 2003 wildfire. Water and power in the town were cut off.

Dozens of additional fire engines and hundreds more firefighters, as well as at least six more aircraft, were expected to arrive Wednesday from other states, mostly throughout the West.

"Crews, engines, helicopters — they're coming in from all over the country," said Bob Shidelar, a fire operations director from Northern California who was helping fight a fire in the mountains of San Bernardino County. He said firefighters there were badly understaffed.

Winds could reach 50 mph in mountain passes early Wednesday and blow erratically, presenting an especially daunting challenge to firefighters battling out-of-control blazes in San Diego County and the mountain resorts east of Los Angeles.

"There's all those fuels, just sitting there waiting," said Leonard Villareal, a San Diego fire district spokesman. "The winds kick it up and kick it up quickly, and it moves really quickly because there's all that fuel to eat."

Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff, touring an evacuation center at Qualcomm Stadium in San Diego, said he hoped the slackening winds expected late Wednesday would allow a greater aerial assault and help firefighters beat back the most destructive blazes.

"If the weather cooperates, maybe we can turn the tide," he said.

___

**************************************************************
Morning Monkeys! This news sounds a little encouraging! Let's hope conditions EXCEED the optimism!

[crazybabyborg]

On a lighter note, do any of you have ideas for Halloween cookies? I have a friend that I always make cookies for and decorate. Last year, I was short on time and bought sugar cookie dough and canned cream cheese and chocolate frosting and had a blast decorating them. He thought they were homemade. I drew spider webs, pumpkins, bats, etc. on them and we laughed for days at my "artistic" abilities!

At the last minute, I included Nutter Butter ghosts and halved Little Debbie brownies and made Frankenstein heads out of them (chocolate frosting, green hair, pretzel neck bolts, red hot eyes, and a red chin scar). Both of those turned out great! Variety seems to please, so I was hoping you guys might have some ideas?

[crazybabyborg]

OK, The cookie thing made me hungry! So, eat hearty this morning, Monkeys! 



And start with a cup of great coffee!

[MumInOhio]

Good Morning Monkeys!  Beautiful fall morning here and the maples are at peak color.

My thoughts are with Shell and all the CA Monkeys..this is such a disaster.

Anna..hope you got some rain.

CBB.. thanks for breakfast.

Need to catch up as I'm way behind...Thanks for all the articles bought over here as I was way out on a loop especially about the wildfires. Found all I needed to know right here and didn't even have to venture over to CNN or Fox...Thanks again!